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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:13:00 -
[1]
Hi,
when comparing Caldari missile and rail sniper ships I get everytime the same result: missile ships do more damage over greater distances with more volley damage and can choose damage type (in case of Raven). I case of HAC...Cerberus 334 DPS with 1760 volleys @190km vs. Eagle 142 DPS with 624 volley damage @157+15km. Almost the same for cruise Raven vs. rail Rokh...
Of course I know the main advantage of turret snipers: instant damage. But is it worth that huge damage loss?? I mean...as sniper I attack secondary targets anyhow, don't I?
Also I know these damage values above are values on paper. In reality we have tracking and explosion velocity vs. target velocity, signatur radius vs. explosion radius, damage type vs. resistances and so on.
Thats why I'm asking here. Can someone tell me some experiences? Maybe a key role for Caldari turret sniper?
Thanks, Secus
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:15:00 -
[2]
Edited by: BiggestT on 11/09/2008 13:15:59
Originally by: Denuo Secus Cerberus 334 DPS with 1760 volleys @190km vs. Eagle 142 DPS with 624 volley damage @157+15km. Secus
EDIT: that cerb wld be rigged and that eagle probably doesnt have any rigs/trakcing mods etc. Make it a fair comparison plz, eagle can ezily get over 200 without rigs..
Proudly annoying FC's since 2007 Please resize signature to the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels. Navigator
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:28:00 -
[3]
Originally by: BiggestT Edited by: BiggestT on 11/09/2008 13:15:59
Originally by: Denuo Secus Cerberus 334 DPS with 1760 volleys @190km vs. Eagle 142 DPS with 624 volley damage @157+15km. Secus
EDIT: that cerb wld be rigged and that eagle probably doesnt have any rigs/trakcing mods etc. Make it a fair comparison plz, eagle can ezily get over 200 without rigs..
No, I rigged both ships for tank. Maybe not ideal but comparable in this way. Here my fittings:
[Cerberus, Sniper] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II /OFFLINE Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
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[Eagle, Sniper] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II /OFFLINE Tracking Computer II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:38:00 -
[4]
The difference is really that you don't snipe with missiles. "Sniping", in the strict sense, is focus-firing on a single target, aiming to pop it before it can warp. That won't happen with missiles, where the target has plenty of warning before they hit - or has already been popped by the insta-damage turrets. So the Cerberus's EFT DPS advantage - and it can do 394 DPS at 240 km - doesn't translate so well into reality.
But this doesn't mean the Cerb is useless. The ability to project good DPS 240 km is useful (which Recon likes uncloaking at 200 km?), and a target that warps out is removed from the field just as if you'd popped it - for a minute or so, at least. On the other hand, the Eagle is better against fast targets - the Cerberus would have to refit to AMLs and Precision Lights.
Cerb fit BTW:
5x HML II MWD, 2x sensor booster, 2x whatever 3x bcs II, 1x something 2 missile velocity rigs
Or Precision Light fit for killing interceptors:
5x HML II MWD, tank, tackle, ewar, whatever 3x bcs II, DC II 2 missile explosion velocity rigs
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.11 14:58:00 -
[5]
I've learned this week that sig resolution of your guns is not like the expl. radius of missiles: when tracking is not an issue, it simply doesn't matter and you could hit a frigate with a dreadnought for full damage (after resistances).
At this high distances tracking shoudn't matter. So lets compare the cruise missile raven with the rokh at 249km. No question, the raven will deal a lot more raw damage. But this damage will be reduced by: - resistances - target velocity (if the target goes faster than 750m/s) - target size (a cruiser with 125m sig radius will get only half damage) in addition to that it takes up to 30 sec for the cruise missiles to arrive at 249km (little less with rigs/implant).
The Rokh's damage is only reduced by ship resistances in this case. Full damage on cruisers and frigates, no damage delay.
At the end it highly depends on what you are doing, but for max range fights i think the Rokh will be more usefull in most situations.
_________ My e-peen |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.11 15:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Denuo Secus
Originally by: BiggestT Edited by: BiggestT on 11/09/2008 13:15:59
Originally by: Denuo Secus Cerberus 334 DPS with 1760 volleys @190km vs. Eagle 142 DPS with 624 volley damage @157+15km. Secus
EDIT: that cerb wld be rigged and that eagle probably doesnt have any rigs/trakcing mods etc. Make it a fair comparison plz, eagle can ezily get over 200 without rigs..
[Eagle, Sniper] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II /OFFLINE Tracking Computer II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Sorry but that setup is pure failure im afraid. Do not try and fit them the same way while only changing the weapons, it sounds logical but it doesnt work. That eagle needs 2 sensor boosters and 2 tracking computers. Do not tank it, it uses range as its defense. Once tank is gone pwg is freed up and u can swap pdu's etc for tracking computers. Do this on eft now and you will easily get to 200+km range. Proudly annoying FC's since 2007
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InsanlyEvlPerson
Gallente Night-Stalkers
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Posted - 2008.09.11 16:48:00 -
[7]
Edited by: InsanlyEvlPerson on 11/09/2008 16:48:52 Just stop and think for a minute. have you ever seen a sniper in the real world using a missile launcher?
Edit: sorry, i just had to!
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Viktrus
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.11 17:15:00 -
[8]
Originally by: InsanlyEvlPerson Edited by: InsanlyEvlPerson on 11/09/2008 16:48:52 Just stop and think for a minute. have you ever seen a sniper in the real world using a missile launcher?
Edit: sorry, i just had to!
have you ever seen someone in real life refer to a spaceship as a sniper?
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.11 17:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I've learned this week that sig resolution of your guns is not like the expl. radius of missiles: when tracking is not an issue, it simply doesn't matter and you could hit a frigate with a dreadnought for full damage (after resistances).
At this high distances tracking shoudn't matter.
This is not true, the sig radius of the target does matter, even if it's sitting still. Tracking and sig radius are part of the same "chance to hit" equation. This is why lots of the time if you're webbed it's best to turn your MWD off if you're a smaller ship. You might be moving slower but your sig radius is much much smaller, allowing you to avoid more hits. Similarly a dread will not be able to hit a stationary shuttle simply due to the huge difference between the signal resolution of the gun and the signal radius of the target.
In addition tracking does play a key role in sniping when you're talking about anything other than 2 BS fleets sitting 150 km away from each other shooting away. Anti-support snipers especially need to be very aware of tracking.
That being said, missiles are not for sniping, by the time your missiles actually hit the target, it will be dead and you'll do no damage.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2008.09.11 17:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Denuo Secus
[Eagle, Sniper] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II /OFFLINE Tracking Computer II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Sorry but that setup is pure failure im afraid. Do not try and fit them the same way while only changing the weapons, it sounds logical but it doesnt work. That eagle needs 2 sensor boosters and 2 tracking computers. Do not tank it, it uses range as its defense. Once tank is gone pwg is freed up and u can swap pdu's etc for tracking computers. Do this on eft now and you will easily get to 200+km range.
Meh, of course you're right. Although I'm a newb in sniper business...I knew this fact already This Eagle could shoot at > 160km but lock at 87km ^^
So I tried it with 2x sensor booster and 2x tracking computer and 2x locus coordinator rigs and got 217km optimal with Spike and 213km locking range. Also a nice option to switch to faction antimatter ammo and tracking scripts...
Range as tank sounds...well...interesting ^^ I'll try it in a cheap ferox soon.
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Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2008.09.11 18:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Denuo Secus Hi,
when comparing Caldari missile and rail sniper ships I get everytime the same result: missile ships do more damage over greater distances with more volley damage and can choose damage type (in case of Raven). I case of HAC...Cerberus 334 DPS with 1760 volleys @190km vs. Eagle 142 DPS with 624 volley damage @157+15km. Almost the same for cruise Raven vs. rail Rokh...
Of course I know the main advantage of turret snipers: instant damage. But is it worth that huge damage loss?? I mean...as sniper I attack secondary targets anyhow, don't I?
Also I know these damage values above are values on paper. In reality we have tracking and explosion velocity vs. target velocity, signatur radius vs. explosion radius, damage type vs. resistances and so on.
Thats why I'm asking here. Can someone tell me some experiences? Maybe a key role for Caldari turret sniper?
Thanks, Secus
"missiles" and "sniper" should never be used in conjunction with each other. _____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.11 20:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
This is not true, the sig radius of the target does matter, even if it's sitting still. ...
You should get your facts straight. While the sig radius has a direct impact on the damage of missiles (if its smaller than the explosion radius), it's only a part of the tracking formula for turrets. There won't be any damage reduction if the small ship does not move and is hit by large guns. Check the tracking guide and do some numbers with the char wizzard on last page. _________ My e-peen |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.11 23:41:00 -
[13]
Quote: This is not true, the sig radius of the target does matter, even if it's sitting still.
No, it doesn't. For turrets shooting a stationary target (so no transversal) sig radius and turret sig resolution are irrelevant. They're a modifier to tracking, and any multiple of zero is still zero.
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.12 00:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote: This is not true, the sig radius of the target does matter, even if it's sitting still.
No, it doesn't. For turrets shooting a stationary target (so no transversal) sig radius and turret sig resolution are irrelevant. They're a modifier to tracking, and any multiple of zero is still zero.
Theoretically if both you and your target are moving at EXACLTY 0 m/s then you're correct; however, this is never ever the case in practice since even if both ships stop they still end up drifting a bit, causing sig radius to come into play.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.09.12 01:29:00 -
[15]
There is no such thing as Rail vs. Missles in terms of sniping. Missles travel, they are useless after a certain point, for me, that point is anything past 30km. With rails, its about how much damage you want to do - because the distance is irrelevant except for the type of ammo you load.
missle sniping is an oxymoron. ----
GO BLUE!! |
Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.09.12 06:50:00 -
[16]
I have had actual experience with flying a cruise raven in a fleet fight.
It was a ship designed for POS bashing, because that's what our fleet had set out to do. But enroute, we changed objectives in the face of a large enemy fleet, and so I was stuck with a cruise raven in a classic 200-on-200 @ 150km sniping duel at a gate.
And tell you what? It worked. I managed 6 kills (one of them a Falcon which I nuked solo) before I got a swarm of fighters on me and died horribly.
And why did it work? Because of the lag monster, of course. Warping out when you're being missile-sniped may be the solution on paper, but in that fight, I guess my targets never had a chance to react, even if it took me 2 minutes to kill them.
So yes, missile snipers do work. You just have to shoot something that cannot warp out - for example, because it is tackled, because it sits in a bubble, because it's lagged to Jita and back, or because it is performing a duty it cannot abandon (enemy heavy dictor, for instance). And you would be surprised how many people don't notice your little red-blinking aggression brackets in the busy confusion of a fight until they start getting hit
Your performance will be about on par with turret snipers. Your raw DPS is higher, but you have "damage lag": You start firing, but your DPS is 0 for several volleys until the first volley hits. Therefore you often need to guess when it's time to shut off your launchers and let your remaining in-transit missiles finish the job.
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Furb Killer
Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.09.12 07:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote: This is not true, the sig radius of the target does matter, even if it's sitting still.
No, it doesn't. For turrets shooting a stationary target (so no transversal) sig radius and turret sig resolution are irrelevant. They're a modifier to tracking, and any multiple of zero is still zero.
Theoretically if both you and your target are moving at EXACLTY 0 m/s then you're correct; however, this is never ever the case in practice since even if both ships stop they still end up drifting a bit, causing sig radius to come into play.
Which isnt what you were saying.
And sig radius directly modifies your effective tracking, and that is all it does. If your guns got a resolution of 400, and the target a sig radius of 200, your tracking will be effectively two times lower. So if your target then is at 200km distance and not doing strange stuff you can still hit him for full damage.
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Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.12 08:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ishina Fel
So yes, missile snipers do work. You just have to shoot something that cannot warp out - for example, because it is tackled, because it sits in a bubble, or because it is performing a duty it cannot abandon (enemy heavy dictor, for instance).
Isn't that what the Caldari are all about? Long distance combat, tacklers to hold them in place, ECM to jam everything that is a danger to the tacklers.
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.12 08:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Denuo Secus
Meh, of course you're right. Although I'm a newb in sniper business...I knew this fact already This Eagle could shoot at > 160km but lock at 87km ^^
So I tried it with 2x sensor booster and 2x tracking computer and 2x locus coordinator rigs and got 217km optimal with Spike and 213km locking range. Also a nice option to switch to faction antimatter ammo and tracking scripts...
Range as tank sounds...well...interesting ^^ I'll try it in a cheap ferox soon.
Good man, A ferox is a great precurser to an eagle, however you will need 2 tracking computers and 2 tracking enhancers to get to 150+km (and also 2 sensor boosters).
Its a very nice cheap sniper that costs next to nothing after insurance. Once youve got the whole feel for it, upgrade to the eagle ;) Proudly annoying FC's since 2007
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Hairygoagain
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Posted - 2008.09.12 11:13:00 -
[20]
The problem with missiles, as mentioned already, is travel time. On EFT your missile snip has more DPS, but the fact that the rail boat is hitting for 20 seconds before your missiles hit means that in the real world missile DPS is a lot less (Plus your last 20 seconds worth of ammo doesn't even reach the target as it was blown up just after you launched).
In other words, missile boats can be used in Fleet situations, but in gangs a rail boat can be much more use; however, as in all things Eve, there is no right or wrong.
Lee
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2008.09.12 22:28:00 -
[21]
Quote: I've learned this week that sig resolution of your guns is not like the expl. radius of missiles: when tracking is not an issue, it simply doesn't matter and you could hit a frigate with a dreadnought for full damage (after resistances).
you can't say when tracking is not an issue, because the sig resolution/sig radius is part of the equation that affects tracking. If either ship is moving, much less moving in ways which generate high transversal, sig radius has about the same effect for turrets as it does missiles in terms of dps % increases, missiles do more dmg, turrets hit more often.
NOTR How to Fail at Eve
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Jonna Andromedae
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Posted - 2008.09.12 22:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Denuo Secus Hi,
when comparing Caldari missile and rail sniper ships I get everytime the same result: missile ships do more damage over greater distances with more volley damage and can choose damage type (in case of Raven). I case of HAC...Cerberus 334 DPS with 1760 volleys @190km vs. Eagle 142 DPS with 624 volley damage @157+15km. Almost the same for cruise Raven vs. rail Rokh...
Of course I know the main advantage of turret snipers: instant damage. But is it worth that huge damage loss?? I mean...as sniper I attack secondary targets anyhow, don't I?
Also I know these damage values above are values on paper. In reality we have tracking and explosion velocity vs. target velocity, signatur radius vs. explosion radius, damage type vs. resistances and so on.
Thats why I'm asking here. Can someone tell me some experiences? Maybe a key role for Caldari turret sniper?
Thanks, Secus
Nothing keeps the target sitting there at 190 km untill the missiles hit for the first time...
Seriously, you can only 'snipe' NPC's with missiles
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.09.12 23:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jonna Andromedae Nothing keeps the target sitting there at 190 km untill the missiles hit for the first time...
Seriously, you can only 'snipe' NPC's with missiles
There are plenty of things that keep a target sitting at 190km when a missile volley comes in.
1) Lag (Remember, if you think you're going to kill a ship with snipers before it warps you need a LOT of snipers inplying fleet combat) 2) Point (If you don't have enough ships to 1 or two volley an opposing ship you need to have the ship tackled in some capacity) 3) Ignorance (Not everyone notices missiles until the first volley hits home) 4) Align times (You don't always get the luxury of getting to align before the missiles hit)
190km range means a raven's cruise volley will take about 30 seconds to arrive on target. You can cut that down substantially if you velocity rig your raven meaning unless the target is pre aligned the volley will probalby make contact before a warp can be initiated.
But, let's face it - from the strictest standpoint what most people try to achieve in PVP is a kill, and most people consider anything short of a kill a failure rather than a degree of success. If ship warps the minute you fire as many propose, a raven can, in short order, drive off a half dozen ships and essentially remove 6 ships from the fight at any given time because they simply warp out. When a ship isn't present it's not delivering damage (a bonus) or helping other ships tank (another bonus). If it's a scorpion/falcon/ecm whatever, driving them from the battlefield is a HUGE boon.
But, in reality most people don't warp when they see a missile blob heading towards them in the same fashion that most people don't warp when they start recieving any degree of fire at all. Instead, they hang around for as long as possible and warp when it becomes clear not doing so will cause them to explode. In fleet combat this means the instant your ship takes a scratch. In smaller gangs most people hang around substantially longer.
I'm not exactly advocating the missile sniper is truly competative with a turret sniper because they are clearly not equal. But if everyone takes that first complaint of "they warp anyway so it's useless" then it stands to reason a raven can drive a ship from the field every time the launchers cycle - and that clearly doesn't happen.
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Chienka
Victory Not Vengeance SOLAR WING
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Posted - 2008.09.12 23:49:00 -
[24]
The lag argument is somewhat null given that it also applies to turrets, and not just missiles.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.09.12 23:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Chienka The lag argument is somewhat null given that it also applies to turrets, and not just missiles.
It's not an irrelevent argument because you can't state that a ship can't be halted from warping by lag. If lag holds the target in place long enough for a missile volley to hit then the statent I was arguing against becomes untrue yes?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.09.13 00:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Chienka The lag argument is somewhat null given that it also applies to turrets, and not just missiles.
It's not an irrelevent argument because you can't state that a ship can't be halted from warping by lag. If lag holds the target in place long enough for a missile volley to hit then the statent I was arguing against becomes untrue yes?
Well based on TQ combat:
lag+cerb = easy kills :)
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.13 09:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Chienka The lag argument is somewhat null given that it also applies to turrets, and not just missiles.
It's not an irrelevent argument because you can't state that a ship can't be halted from warping by lag. If lag holds the target in place long enough for a missile volley to hit then the statent I was arguing against becomes untrue yes?
Well based on TQ combat:
lag+cerb = easy kills :)
Their also killmail whor*s, i mena dman give us railboats some km's ffs! Eve tax back!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.13 11:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Jonna Andromedae Nothing keeps the target sitting there at 190 km untill the missiles hit for the first time...
Seriously, you can only 'snipe' NPC's with missiles
There are plenty of things that keep a target sitting at 190km when a missile volley comes in.
And No. 5 - quite simply, the need for a pilot to stay on the field. A ship that warps out is removed from the fight just as if it had been popped. For a minute or so, at least.
But in a laggy environment, where the grid takes a long time to load, it can be a lot more.
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Ceremony Garp
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Posted - 2008.09.13 12:56:00 -
[29]
Sniping Eagle
4 x 250II, 2 x assault/heavy II 3 x sensor booster II 1 x track comp II 1 x EM hardener II 3 x mag stab II, 1 x tracking enchanter II
Denuo,
Your Eagle sniper set-up doesn't appear to be anything like a sniper set-up, lol. No offence but have a look at the above set-up mate. Have a bash with that and let us know the difference between the Cerb and Eagle after.
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