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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.10 09:24:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Aluka 7th on 10/09/2008 09:27:47 First, rules:
- Jita is not the place to sell stuff, its place to buy stuff for resale in other regions. Only benefit of Jita is that you can sell large quantities very fast. But you do that for very low profit and have to compete with other sellers that undercut your price (lower their sale price under yours for 0.01ISK) - Manufacture is profitable, in region with developed competition, only with production efficiency at lvl 5. Otherwise other sellers can lower their sell price bellow yours manufacturing price and they will still make a profit - you won't. - Buy locally minerals that are needed in large amounts but are cheap per unit - trit, pyerite, mex, isogen and nocx. - Buy in remote locations expensive minerals; in mining regions or close to 0.0 of some major alliance - Zydrine,Megacyte and Morph. Although calculate prices like you bought them locally. This enables you to lower price more then anyone else when needed which gives you long term grip over supply in that region. - Diversity of items you can manufacture is the key. Over time some items stop being profitable and some start again. - When producing large amounts don't oversupply regional market. Check in history tab, in market window, amounts that are sold daily. Try to put batches that will sell with current trade volumes in next 1-2 days until you get feel for demand and competition. Move to another region and supply them with that item in same manner. Soon you will see how often and in how big batches you need to produce that item. - Use haulers for rent, put contract or ask in forums, but calculate price of hauling in final price.
What to manufacture:
1.Ammo - laser crystals of M and L size, t1 mining crystals, scripts.
Missiles, projectile and hybrid ammo and cap. booster charges are already too cheap because they are outlet for miners. Miners convert part of their mining supply to dirty cheap ammo so they can sell more minerals overall. There is some money in trading ammo if you buy in trade hub -> sell in mission hub (places where there are many mission runners like COSMOS constellations). Mining crystal use only nocxium but are very big per unit. So its good to bring or buy locally nocxium and use BPOs/BPCs to manufacture on site near system where miners are.
2.R.dB and R.A.M.
Profitable and easy to get in, sell for more then double of their manufacturing price. But you can only produce low amounts per day per production line (40-50). For faster sale aim for systems with lots of research labs.
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.10 13:13:00 -
[2]
140 times read and not a single Tnx :¦( I don't know should I continue with list...
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Sha'ampin
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Posted - 2008.09.10 13:44:00 -
[3]
Thanks for your work :)
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Yaar Podshipnik
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.09.10 15:30:00 -
[4]
That's a very good starting point you provided to a lot of manufacturing wannabes :). Thank you for your effort!
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Absimi Liard
Gallente Vertical Industrial Partners Limited
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Posted - 2008.09.10 15:41:00 -
[5]
I like your rules.
I don't agree with every one of them, mostly because I think exceptions exist for most rules. But as generalities I like them.
Your specific product advice I don't agree as strongly with. But maybe my markets are different than yours. (what a shock huh? *looks totally unshocked*)
Regarding mineral acquisition, I'll note that I strongly advise using Buy Orders for the bulk mins like Pye and Trit, and that the Buy Orders should be set at your build site. This means you need to haul less stuff. Hauling 100M ISK of rares is pretty trivial, hauling 100M ISK of Trit is really annoying if you're not a freighter pilot.
But in general, I like it.
-abs
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Jiss Katcher
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Posted - 2008.09.10 15:53:00 -
[6]
this is VERY awesome :)
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Absimi Liard
Regarding mineral acquisition, I'll note that I strongly advise using Buy Orders for the bulk mins like Pye and Trit, and that the Buy Orders should be set at your build site. This means you need to haul less stuff. Hauling 100M ISK of rares is pretty trivial, hauling 100M ISK of Trit is really annoying if you're not a freighter pilot.
Ha, ha, ha I thought it was really common sense to use buy orders instead just buying right away from sale orders so I wasn't very precise :). Tnx for the tip to clarify the rules!
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Aluka 7th
2.Manufacturing and research tools - R.dB and R.A.M.
Profitable and easy to get in, sell for more then double of their manufacturing price. But you can only produce low amounts per day per production line (40-50). For faster sale aim for systems with lots of research labs.
R.A.M. yes R.dB - don't bother only useful for T2 bpo holders and they would of researched them already - well a couple of T1's use them but it's not worth it really -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: RaTTuS
R.dB - don't bother only useful for T2 bpo holders and they would of researched them already - well a couple of T1's use them but it's not worth it really
If you check this http://eve.coldfront.net/db/item/R.Db+-+Viziam for example you can see that R.Db's are used also for BPO copying so they are still in need.
To be more precise this is usage per month in one region of 7 different R.Db's - 1933pcs. Even more in regions with lowsec systems where all rich carebears run jobs on expensive BPO's.
Still I agree that one shouldn't put this items on top of manufacture list although its profitable and complies with idea of this tread.
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Sysion
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:55:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Aluka 7th - Jita is not the place to sell stuff, its place to buy stuff for resale in other regions. Only benefit of Jita is that you can sell large quantities very fast. But you do that for very low profit and have to compete with other sellers that undercut your price (lower their sale price under yours for 0.01ISK)
This always seems like one of those myths that everyone accepts without actually looking at.
Jita is not necessarily where you'll find people selling at the lowest price. I am currently selling several items for greater profit AND volume in Jita than in other regions. There is one item I'm selling at decent volume in Jita where I am the only person selling it, and have been for the past week and a half. There is one item, until recently, that I was selling in Jita for 2x what I was selling it in Amarr. It only changed because everyone was sold out in Amarr, so I put up more at a price over Jita and set a new baseline price. There is even another where I only need to adjust its price ever few days.
Additionally, I don't always get the negative of "lower profit, higher volume". People neglect the importance of time. Is the goal of manufacturing/trading in Eve to maintain the highest profit margin, or to make the most money? Say person A makes a 20% margin, but sells 10 items a day, and person B has a 15% margin, but sells 20 items per day. After a month, who has done better? Sure person A can be proud of their 20% margin, but over the same span of time, person B is going to come out of it with a bigger wallet.
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.10 17:08:00 -
[11]
Sysion to be honest I have 17 items that give me biggest profit in Jita - even when looking per item. Rule I wrote was for other few thousand items and also I wanted to save nerves of fresh industrialist of 24/7 undercutting in that system. But you are right and you put out few good points.
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.11 04:38:00 -
[12]
List of items with above average profitability and BPOs that cost less then 2mil is updated every now and then in first two posts. So although there are no many "thank you" posts those of you that read please come again.
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.09.11 09:00:00 -
[13]
Aha yes copying ... umm
-- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.11 11:35:00 -
[14]
Excellent summary. A few comments below
Originally by: Aluka 7th Edited by: Aluka 7th on 11/09/2008 08:39:28 First, rules:
- Manufacturing is profitable, in region with developed competition, only with production efficiency at lvl 5. Otherwise other sellers can lower their sell price bellow yours manufacturing price and they will still make a profit - you won't. - You can sell items for greater price if you are 2+ jumps away from cheaper guy in same region, because people don't fly around for 2-3 items to save 5%.
The difference in profit from Lvl4 to Lvl5 is 5% so if you are making less than 5% profit margin then the first of these two rules stands true. However, if you are making less than 5% profit then I would advise finding another item to manufacture since it is probably not worth your time and effort. I had many successful months of profit at Lvl4 before finally getting to Lvl5. The choice of items is key.
My experience is that you can successfully sell items at up to 50% more than at other stations in the same system! Players realise that time is money, undocking/docking take time that could be used on running another mission or more ratting. If you can make 20m+ per hr on missions it pays you to buy local. I've successfully sold items in the 1-2m range at 500k more than another station in the same system. The choice of station is key.
On turrets, you can sell turrets profitably if you are smart. -Sell projectiles turrets in Gallente space and hybrids in Minmatar etc. Demand is not huge but the profit margins can be high because the market is not supplied by ratting. -Mid range medium turrets sell well ie 200mm railguns. New players moving to cruisers cannot fit the larger med turrets initially so will purchase the smaller meds. 200mm rails therefore sell for more than 250mm rails where I am - but they cost less to build.
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.09.11 11:46:00 -
[15]
Yes, your point about ME.
The difference for a Raven, buying all materials off the market, between ME 10 and ME 20 is only about 300-400k. Considering you pay almost double for the BPC, there goes the savings in materials right there.
Pretty much all manufactured goods reach their peak efficiency at ME 10. Anything beyond that is just... useful for things you're going to produce scads of per joblot (ammunition, probes, et al).
Battleship-size or other large high material items (mobile bubbles, strip/ice miners, ect) can take some small advantage of me 10+, but only if you're the BPO holder. Buying ME 10+ BPCs is almost always invariably more expensive than the savings you get from reduced waste.
The same thing goes for PE. Beyond PE 10 the time you save is minimal but, again, when you're producing month-long joblots a PE of 20 can let you squeeze in a rather surprising number of extra runs.
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.11 11:59:00 -
[16]
Thank you Romanov.
There are good points in your comments. Although my example was extreme regarding production efficiency level, focus was that you competition can have 5% lower price then you and still make same money per item. Also you are constantly giving 5% of your total sale value to miners from which you buy that extra 5% materials. In my case that's one fully fitted cruiser per day.
The choice of station is key. YESSSS!
If you deal with turrets then check my other tread where you can see that more money comes from trading turrets then manufacturing them. And if you trade them than don't sell basic Tech I; trade named or Tech2. Still there are regions where you can profit from turrets and I will correct my list.
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.11 12:04:00 -
[17]
I SoStoned there was no point about M.E. just that instead of investing in BPO which costs more then 10-20mil people should rather test waters with BPC that are cheaper to start.
But your point about M.E. is very good. I also don't research M.E. above 9 for many thing that cost even x0 mil isk to make :)
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.12 07:30:00 -
[18]
Any more suggestions? Thoughts from new industrialists? Questions?
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Augeas
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Posted - 2008.09.12 08:36:00 -
[19]
Quote: - Jita is not the place to sell stuff, its place to buy stuff for resale in other regions. Only benefit of Jita is that you can sell large quantities very fast. But you do that for very low profit and have to compete with other sellers that undercut your price (lower their sale price under yours for 0.01ISK)
Yeah, when I read this I thought the entire post was just disinformation. But no, there's some decent advice there... and some stuff that's completely wrong.
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.12 09:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Augeas Yeah, when I read this I thought the entire post was just disinformation. But no, there's some decent advice there... and some stuff that's completely wrong.
:) Whats the wrong part and why?
IMHO people that say to fresh manufacturers - produce ammo, ships or items that sell for less then 10k ISK are beating them to a pulp. On the other hand I did not and will not list best items and best locations.
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Lady Valory
Caldari Caldari Strike Force
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Posted - 2008.09.12 11:20:00 -
[21]
In the equation of time = money, you can make good isk making stuff that other people need for the sole reason that they can use their slots better than you...
Here is what I mean... The inventors need to run their slots making t2 stuff, but they need R.A.M.s...
Making 500 R.A.M can take 9 days or so, and few hi-end manufactures can afford to tie up a slot for 9 days, even with alts.
Thus, get some R.A.M. bpos, and then make 10 sets of 500 RAM.
Pros: 1) you just have to run jobs once every 10 days... No running back and forth to change jobs all the time 2) you stock is necessary and needed by all t2 manufactures in eve--in other words, it sells 3) the main component of RAM are isogen and nocium, both of which are cheap...
What this means is the following. Suppose you have a few billion isk and some spare manufacturing... You can make 1000s of RAM as a bet that the drone regions will get nerfed and also that nocium and isogen will rise...
Your build cost is so cheap, that if those minerals rise, you will make an enormous amount of isk just by sitting on product for 6 months.
Remember there is no real investment in EVE, so what I propose is you think of a way to use your manufacturing slots as an investment to make more isk than just selling stuff as you make it...
Next, with the RAM market, you can easily manipulate it. Once you have your stockpile of RAM, go to a region and hub (like RENS) and buy ALL the RAM. Then add your few 000 RAM to the market at an inflated price, and resell the other RAM also at an inflated price.
RAM takes so long to make, that the casual and small time inventors will grimace, but your RAM will then start selling. Once the price bottoms out as more RAM comes to the market, you have another 10 day batch out of the oven, and you can repeat in the next region...
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Lady Valory
Caldari Caldari Strike Force
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Posted - 2008.09.12 11:27:00 -
[22]
Datacore trading:
The datacore market is ripe for exploitation...
We personally made several billion isk off this, and now we are moving onto other schemes, but I'll pass this along to you...
The supply of infinite isk vs the limited supply of datacores is key... Remember broken L4 missions and farmers arent fixed yet...
SO, with just a few billion isk, you can buy ALL the datacores in Jita. We did this by buying ALL the caldari starship datacores in all the caldari hi-sec regions with an average buy price of 149000 isk and then flipped all them a few months ago for some amazing isk. We kept 20000 of them as pure profit for invention also...
By buying ALL the datacores, you choke up lots of players who invent hand and mouth, and also those casual players who dont really understand invention.
Next, the datacore market is finite while the isk faucets are broken...
At some point, a cartel could just buy every datacore on market forever and nothing could stop this...
We dont have that kind of isk (about 100-250 billion isk) but any cartel could totally Whack eve...
Next, whenever major patches come out, datacores spike massively with new ships, so start stockpiling now as a hedge...
What you are doing is converting useless isk as there are no real banks in the game into "investment grade isk"--think of every lot of 1000 datacores as a block of gold or a bond portfolio that can rise or sink with value.
If you and your friends are small term, pick one type of datacore for a minor tech t2 tree, then invest about 5-10 billion isk and buy all them in the same day all over eve. You'd be surprised the effect you'll have and the profit!
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Arlis Rahl
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Posted - 2008.09.12 19:57:00 -
[23]
While Lady Valory makes some excellent points, I would suggest a little caution before running out and trying to buy all of the supply of a product from a market in Eve. Especially if you don't have a quarter of a trillion isk in reserve.
To stay on topic with the original post, however, I'd like some opinions on producing rigs. I've been experimenting with some here and there and am running into major supply issues with the components necessary to produce them. Specifically I find that one of the items for production tends to be fairly restricted in supply while the other items are abundantly available. Has anyone else experienced positive results through rig production or am I looking at wasting more time flying around placing buy orders and hauling small amounts of material than is worthwhile in the long run?
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Absimi Liard
Gallente Vertical Industrial Partners Limited
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Posted - 2008.09.12 20:11:00 -
[24]
YMMV but I find rigs annoying.
I find the market is highly volatile for salvage materials. I also find, as you did, that there's inevitably one material that is a bottleneck.
If you want to try rig-building I'd suggest using long-term buy orders in mission hubs to acquire your bottleneck materials before buying the other salvage materiel you'll need. You risk the rig price becoming unprofitable if it shifts down. But if you just buy all but the materiel at once except the bottleneck bit you risk having your isk sit stale while you wait to get the bottleneck covered.
All in all I don't like rigs. Lots of effort.
On the other hand they can be very fast turnaround goods. They sell quick in some markets, and build quick too. So if you do see enough of the bottleneck material component you can sometimes build them, and sell them, for profit, inside of an hour.
But overall I don't like them much.
-abs
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.13 08:11:00 -
[25]
Regarding rigs you should be aware of few things.
Salvage materials are divided in basic two sub groups: Circuits & Non-circuits. Circuits drop all over eve. Non-circuits are race/faction specific. Wrecks drop rate depends on if it's from a mission (50%) or asteroid belt (75%) - asteroid belt NPC pirate ships have a better drop rate. frigates - 1 non-circuit, 2 circuits cruisers - 1 non-circuit, 4 circuits battlecruisers - 1 to 2 non-circuit, 6 circuits battleship - 1 to 3 non-circuit 8+ circuits
Therefore in empire there will always be scarce of Non-circuits. Reason is that most of salvage in empire comes from mission (50% salvage drop rate) and people in high-sec empire regions do missions up to lvl 3 so biggest wreck is from Battlecruiser. If you check usage of non-circuit materials per rig you will notice that for ONE rig mission runners have to salvage for some rigs over 100 ship wreck or with avrage 50% salvage find in mission they have to pop ~200 NPCs. So no wonder its hard to find non-circuit salvage mat.
P.S. Most of used info is from Salvaging Guide written by Voidvim
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Absimi Liard
Gallente Vertical Industrial Partners Limited
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Posted - 2008.09.13 14:57:00 -
[26]
That is very interesting Aluka.
I must have some odd product lists then. Typically my bottleneck material is Fried Interface Circuits. Very strange given the math of the drops.
Maybe FICs just are needed by so many popular rigs that despite being a common drop, which I agree they are, they just get hit by such high demand that they're hard to buy.
But very interesting numbers there.
Thanks for the lookup.
-abs
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.13 15:28:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Aluka 7th on 13/09/2008 15:30:00 44 of 78 rigs require FICs (Fried). Those rigs are 40-45% made of FICs. Its required the most of all three components..
Go figure why you have hard time with that circuit
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Jay See
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Posted - 2008.09.14 18:32:00 -
[28]
very interesting topic, thank you.
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.16 10:57:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Aluka 7th on 16/09/2008 10:57:36 Few more thing for you fresh manufacturers..
9. Propulsion - 10MN MWD, 10MN AB
Why only medium size? Read point 5. of this post.
o/
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Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:28:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Aluka 7th on 18/09/2008 12:29:52 One detail for you readers. To answer why this recommended items sell well.
You see T1 items are usually bought by fresh pod pilots that don't know advantages of named equipment yet.
BUT don't forget that most of the Tech 2 industry sits on the back of Tech 1 industry and this is your second market. To manufacture Tech2 item you need some materials and plain non-named Tech 1 item which "big fish" players buy from market and don't produce :)
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