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Gigo
Minmatar Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2008.09.05 12:48:00 -
[1]
I recently bought a new router (Belkin N1 Vision) and since then I have been suffering from intermittant connection loss.
I can be playing for minutes or hours without issue and then next time I do something that calls the server (type in chat window, open market, launch or dock etc.) I get a Connection Lost popup. This is noticably more likely to happen if I am running 2 clients at the same time, or switching between EVE and another application. Once disconnected I can immediately reconnect and continue, until the next connection loss.
Other, less intensive tasks like internet browsing or VPN do not suffer any connection issues.
My machine is not the most powerful, but before the new router I could do these things without losing connection.
So, whilst it seems safe to assume that the new router is the issue, I am trying to understand exactly what the problem is.
- What causes EVE to lose a connection? A spike in latency? Packet loss? Some sort of timeout? Will the log server help me diagnose this?
- Anybody having similar issues on this or any other router?
- Anything I can do to make EVE more resilient?
- I am using a wired connection from my 100Mb NIC to the router which is a 1Gb switch - could this mismatch be an issue?
Any ideas appreciated,
Gigo --- It's not just a game! |
Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari eNinjas Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:24:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 05/09/2008 13:29:41 Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 05/09/2008 13:28:59 Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 05/09/2008 13:28:31 The problem is that it is a Belkin.
Seriously, I've had nothing but trouble with their equipment.
EDIT: The normal reason for connection loss (in anything, not just EVE) is a NAT router with a really tiny NAT table (i.e. pretty much every home router) and it getting overflowed. An alternative is a NAT router that prunes its NAT table a little too aggressively, killing open connections that haven't had activity for a little while, even if it doesn't have a new connection to replace it with. EVE is known for not sending much data when you're idling, which can cause the connection to be dropped. The usual workaround is to keep local chat or some other active chat channel open.
nullnull
My sig is not my sig. |
Farina Larros
Gulliver Corp Prismatic Refraction
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:18:00 -
[3]
Are running Vista? If so, try disabling IPV6 on your network adapter's properties. It causes no end of problems, especially with Belkin routers in my experience.
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Desdoria
Minmatar Butterfly Effect Corp.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:25:00 -
[4]
Also if you are not running wireless turn it off, or set the channel to 3, 7 or 9.
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Dr Lmao
TANK.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:57:00 -
[5]
Keep a public chat channel e.g. one of the trade channels, open within your chat windows (doesn't need to be visible). Then the EVE client is receiving data regularly.
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Gigo
Minmatar Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:22:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Gigo on 05/09/2008 16:22:31 Thanks for the replies!
@ Falkrich: I have tried running with a constant ping to TQ and no joy. I will try with a busy channel, thanks.
@ Farina: No, XP SP3
@ Desdoria: I am not actively using the wireless when I am in EVE, so I will try this. Will be a PITA if I have to keep reconfiguring the router to turn this on and off, but at least I will be able to report what the problem is.
@ Dr L: as above, I have tried Pinging, but I will give it a go with a busy channel. I normally avoid those channels, the constant inane chatter drives me nuts!
Thanks all!
Gigo --- It's not just a game! |
nutbar
Caldari Flair Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:30:00 -
[7]
I would refer you to the 2nd poster - they're more likely to be correct in that the router has a potentially small NAT table, which causes it to forget what connections go to where. However, it's the OSes responsibility to then deal with what data you get goes to which of the two clients.
If it didn't happen with the old router and nothing else changed, then it's obviously the new router. Check forums and such as I doubt the problem is specifically related to EVE so chances are others have maybe experienced the same problem. There might be new firmware for it, or maybe there's a network setting in XP you have to enable/disable (not the first time something like this has come up with an SP for Windows) to get it working.
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SRRAE
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:57:00 -
[8]
I am having exaclty the same issues on the same router
Its nothing to do with my computer as I have 3 computer on the network and they all do it.
Same symptoms, some times can work for hours and others only mins. I actually dropped once on the character selection screen. My last Belkin router was fine, never had any issues, it just didnt have a strong enough signal.
Gigo have you contacted Belkin about it? Its not the mismatch of the switch and network speed, I have gigabit network cards and they drop when plugged in to both, besides the wireless is dropping too. What firmware version do you have?
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SRRAE
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Posted - 2008.09.06 00:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Falkrich Swifthand Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 05/09/2008 13:29:41 Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 05/09/2008 13:28:59 Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 05/09/2008 13:28:31 The problem is that it is a Belkin.
Seriously, I've had nothing but trouble with their equipment.
EDIT: The normal reason for connection loss (in anything, not just EVE) is a NAT router with a really tiny NAT table (i.e. pretty much every home router) and it getting overflowed. An alternative is a NAT router that prunes its NAT table a little too aggressively, killing open connections that haven't had activity for a little while, even if it doesn't have a new connection to replace it with. EVE is known for not sending much data when you're idling, which can cause the connection to be dropped. The usual workaround is to keep local chat or some other active chat channel open.
This makes a little sence. I get a lot more drops in 0.0 space than high sec, but I have been in systems with 250+ while doing missions and it still drops.
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Gigo
Minmatar Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2008.09.07 21:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Gigo on 07/09/2008 21:25:51 Update first...
- having active channels running (Trade, NPC Starter corp etc.) made no difference.
- turning wireless off made no difference.
@ nutbar: I haven't found much on the net regarding similar issues. About the only likely one I found was a guy's blog where he reported disconnections and attributed it to heat. He claimed to have solved it by taking the back off the router.
Whilst I do not think that it is an EVE specific issue (after 5 years of relatively problem free EVEing I have great faith in the reliability of the game and its infrastructure) I was wondering if there were any resilience features (for debug or whatever) that might aid my situation or atleast help me pinpoint the true cause.
I have the latest firmware (1.00.15).
@ SRRAE: Greetings brother! it is good to be no longer alone in my misery!
Thanks for the feedback about the Mb/Gb mismatch.
I have tried to talk to Belkin about it. I spent a few hours on Friday working my way through a couple of levels of their tech support. I ended up with a guy who told me to turn off my firewall and play for a day or so (I declined on security grounds) so he asked me to move my PC in to the DMZ (I again declined and pointed out that was the same as closing down my firewall). Neither time did he warn me of the possible dangers/risks of running without a firewall, which seems a little shoddy: I am not a Microsoft/Windows basher, but I would not want to rely solely on Windows firewall as my only protection from the big bad world and I am not a fan of installing lots of software on my machine that I do not need. He eventually told me that he would get a "research department" to contact me within 48 hours ... that expired about 12 hours ago, no call, no surprise.
I did connect my PC to my old router (with its firewall on) and then connected that to the Belkin (with its firewall off) ... no dice, still disconnects.
Current thinking... My gut feel so far is to go with heat as being the root cause, I may try some active cooling, or a little warranty voiding surgery, and see if that helps.
I won't rule out the small NAT table suggestion, but it seems unlikely to me as I am not connecting to a lot of different locations at the same time, I only have a couple of machines on the LAN (all but one are off at the moment) and frankly it seems a little fundamental for them to be fumbling mistakes like that. I am not particularly up on network kit/software however, so I do not know if my conclusions there are reasonable or even sensible.
Any more ideas, please post them, I am game to try other options. I will post updates as and when I have anything to report.
Thanks all,
Gigo
--- It's not just a game! |
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Gigo
Minmatar Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2008.09.07 21:36:00 -
[11]
Here is a link to the blog I referred to.
The mention of heat and cooling is actually in the comments section. It seems this is a common problem judging by the comments there, yet this is the only place on the net I found any relevant information.
Re-reading the original blog, that reads almost like a carbon copy of my conversation with the tech support guy.
--- It's not just a game! |
EveJoker
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.09.07 22:00:00 -
[12]
It becomes more interesting if you run multiple clients. I used to assume eve was just very tempramental over packet loss.
I have seen any number of clients drop with connection loss, while any other number of clients stay connected.
I also have noted with interest that some clients can stay connected even though my line drops out and reconnects with the same IP, while other clients disconnect.
I normally run 3 clients, and this has happened for me for years, and on three different providers over the years.
Oh and lastly ping plotter dosent show packet loss, and other applications are fine. I suspect its something amiss at eve's end, though I have no idea what.
BTW what did you have before the Belkin that worked?
I use a gentoo firewall with a range of modems in bridge mode. The firewall logging indicates nothing unusual either, and it logs just about everything.
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ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.08 06:58:00 -
[13]
Second poster is right. This is a problem that exists on a huge amount of the cheaply available crap routers. The reason you do not notice this when surfing or using your VPN is that the first is a request method of fetching data once (when page loads) and then not needing the connection and the second has built in keepalive functionality which ensures it doesn't get dropped.
I would suggest you get a better router. I've had a very nice experience with my D-link DGL-4300 router which is designed with a very large NAT table and a dedicated cpu that can handle massive amounts of opened connections at once. (However I've heard later iterations of this router is not so good)
But that's what you should look for in a router that is "EVE-safe" anyway.
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Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari eNinjas Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.08 13:18:00 -
[14]
When you had the ping running constantly did the ping drop out as well or just eve?
In the past I've modified a cable modem to have a fan due to heat issues. The stupid thing had indents that looked like they were ventilation holes, but actually it was pretty much airtight. If the router uses a 12V power-supply you should be able to solder the wires of a 12V fan (available pretty much everywhere) across the power contacts inside. Obviously do this while it's unplugged, and it voids the warranty.
nullnull
My sig is not my sig. |
Gigo
Minmatar Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2008.09.08 17:54:00 -
[15]
@ EveJoker: I have been running 2 clients for about 4 years now. It has never been rock solid, but then it was never a supported feature. Having said that, I might suffer a connection loss normally once every couple of weeks, and then only during periods of heavy lag. What I am getting now is much more regular (2 or 3 times a session, usually both clients). My machine struggles with 2 clients since Dragon, but so long as only one of them is in combat at any one time I used to be ok.
My previous firewall was an SMC Barricade. The only reason for upgrading was that I wanted to add Wireless and, as I am planning a new machine soon, Gigabit LAN.
@ Apa: Thanks for the feedback. As previously stated I have/had my doubts about any credible manufacturer making such a fundamental mistake in a modern product, but the number of people on this thread all saying the same thing .... well, no smoke without fire and all that, so I guess I cannot so blithely ignore this option.
And before anybody says it, yes I do get the impression that a lot of folks do not consider Belkin to be a credible manufacturer: this is my first experience of them, and quite likely my last if I do not find a resolution.
@ Falkrich: In running with a constant ping, I think I saw one timeout in 20-30 minutes, which in my experience is about normal (i.e. very occasional single timeouts) and about the same number of very high response times. Ping Plotter running for a similar sort of time did not really show anything remarkable.
Because EVE doesn't detect connection loss until you actually do something that requires a server round-trip, my connection loss did not occur until sometime after the timeout, so I have no idea if the disconnect and the timouet were related: I would not expect a single timeout to cause such issues.
Gigo --- It's not just a game! |
Gigo
Minmatar Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2008.11.17 23:47:00 -
[16]
An update is due. And a confession.
I tried a variety of configurations. The one that really foxed me was when I had my PC connected to my old SMC router and the Belkin also connected to the SMC. The SMC was connected to the internet. Now as I understand networking, the Belkin really should not have been able to effect my PC to internet connection, yet if the Belkin was turned on I continued to have problems; the moment I pulled the power out of the Belkin, EVE was stable.
I eventually gave up and decided to configure the Belkin as a (rather expensive) Wireless Access Point. Somehow I managed to mess that up, and after many attempts at trying to get back in to the Belkin to see what I had done wrong I hit the reset button and then managed to click the Reset to Factory Defaults option in the brief window before it locked itself back in WAP mode.
I reconfigured the router fully, and went off to do some more research before I tried WAP again. I ran across a tenuously related report that caused me to check my network settings. At this point I discovered that I had NetBIOS turned on in XP. Now I remember NetBIOS being the cause of many problems in the old days (when 56k dial-up was hot stuff) so I thought I had found my silver bullet: I would turn that off and try again.
EVE was down for the Quantum Rising patch. When it came back I connected up and ran for hours with no issues. Success! However, to prove it to myself I then turned NetBIOS back on and sure enough everything kept working rock solid! Arrrgghh!
This means that 3 things changed at the same time:
- I did a factory reset on the router
- I disabled NetBIOS (which is debunked as a cause because I turned it back on and the problem did not recur)
- EVE got a major patch including many lag related improvements
I do not think I will ever know for sure, but I suspect that if it was an EVE problem that many more people than myself and SRRAE would be reporting it.
Which brings me back to the Reset to Factory Defaults on the router. It is always the first thing in the troubleshooting advice, and I always discount it on the grounds that it is a panacea designed to make users go back and re-examine their configuration and spot the stupid mistake.
Pride cometh before a fall.
So, I have not yet tried taking the SMC out of the loop again, but I can atleast run the Belkin and my PC connected to the SMC without issue. It's a start, and I am hopeful.
--Gigo --- It's not just a game! |
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