Originally by: Akita T

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I don't know wether to congratulate you on a well articulated analysis of the problems or congratulate you on a very subtle troll


Bottom line is, even if you increase distance hugely from empire, you'll still have plenty of people going there from empire and back in order to move stuff you absolutely need from empire areas (NPC sold POS consumables, skillbooks, blueprints, etc)

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Originally by: Akita T

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I don't know wether to congratulate you on a well articulated analysis of the problems or congratulate you on a very subtle troll

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Originally by: Akita T

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Bottom line is, even if you increase distance hugely from empire, you'll still have plenty of people going there from empire and back in order to move stuff you absolutely need from empire areas (NPC sold POS consumables, skillbooks, blueprints, etc), and since there's no point making it a one-way trip, the back leg with stuff from your area is almost ensured to happen.

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Originally by: Akita T

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If you want to have even the least bit of success with this "remote area", you'd have to NOT have any patches of highsec at all anywhere close... BUT a couple of islands of LOWSEC space here and there (at most a couple of systems per region) would be just awesome... you WILL need however NPC stations there that sell *everything* you'd normally have to go to "empire space" and only empire space to get.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you just respond to the type of player that you assume I am? Because if the former, your reply makes no sense. What part of "you're welcome to hi-sec, I want no part of it as long as it doesn't impact me" is a problem for you.

I've tried empire wardecs. It blows.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Named...? Maybe.

T2? How? Mission runners contribute nothing towards t2 supply, and provide the ISK to drive up demand. How can they have anything but an upwards effect on T2 prices?

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Originally by: Davina Braben

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Edited by: Davina Braben on 28/08/2008 17:57:02
Interesting. So basically your idea is 0.0 space where the economy is not at all polluted by carebears?

How does that actually work out for 0.0 dwellers though if they can't haul their 0.0 minerals / loots to Jita to sell?

The idea I guess is that you've got enough people in your new region to make a local economy viable (as opposed to a local gougeconomy). I guess the low sec in the middle would be the neutral stations for people to trade at (because when you've got a finite number of people trading in one place people tend to take the **** with prices).

Mind you, if there aren't goods coming in from Empire that's just going to even out supply and demand wise.

Next question would be if people actually want that or if they quite like all their stuffs being cheap.

Euhh.. and as Akita says you have to wonder how far the route out would have to be before people wouldn't make the trip. I mean if you think about it people'd only have to as far as the first place you could jump a freighter / cap to.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you just respond to the type of player that you assume I am? Because if the former, your reply makes no sense. What part of "you're welcome to hi-sec, I want no part of it as long as it doesn't impact me" is a problem for you.

I've tried empire wardecs. It blows.

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I read what you wrote and dismissed it because it doesn't address anything you talk about. You make an assumption that people wouldn't bother moving goods long distances. That assumption is wrong. It would work one way or the other. Either there's not enough supply to supply the area, in which case there would be people bringing them the distance for a premium or there would be so much that people would just bring them back to Empire to sell them at a premium. The area being valuable would then be dominated by a large alliance and the top 10% of that alliance would greatly profit while everyone else would still be whining about how high sec has it easier.

Obviously you have to realize this and furthermore you have to realize that even if Empire went away and the whole game was low sec or null sec you still wouldn't be able to 'sufficiently grief' carebears to the point where you'd be able to affect the market. High sec vs low sec is moot. Its capitalism working as intended. Either they'll achieve a risk free environment in high sec or they'll achieve it deep in alliance space, difference being the latter will be less fun for people and so they'll quit rather than paying the taxes that entails.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I cant respond to you because nothing you said makes any sense to me.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 28/08/2008 18:21:07

Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Named...? Maybe.

T2? How? Mission runners contribute nothing towards t2 supply, and provide the ISK to drive up demand. How can they have anything but an upwards effect on T2 prices?

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They provide liquidity. Ditto for rigs, etc.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Edited to add: The only way to cut it off would be to shard the server. I'm not against this, to be honest, but I think your perceptions about how economics in Eve work are a bit off. You seem obsessed with the minor downsides of high sec mission runners (over-supply of certain goods, increased buying power for mission runners) while neglecting what would happen if you drastically reduced demand for goods or NPC seeded them.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 28/08/2008 18:28:45

Originally by: Malcanis

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I cant respond to you because nothing you said makes any sense to me.

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Try reading a book on economics then before you carry on a campaign against mission runner economics that spans a dozen threads. Nothing I'm mentioning is very hard to grasp. If you don't shard the server, the markets will be correlated.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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That would only hold true if T2 supply was demand-limited. But the fundamental limit on T2 production is the very finite supply of moon minerals. No matter how many people want to buy T2, the amount that can be supplied is absolutely defined by the output of the known number of dysprosium moons.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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To put it another way: is there anything you oppose about my suggestion?

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Originally by: Malcanis

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That would only hold true if T2 supply was demand-limited. But the fundamental limit on T2 production is the very finite supply of moon minerals. No matter how many people want to buy T2, the amount that can be supplied is absolutely defined by the output of the known number of dysprosium moons.

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That's true for some items. That isn't true however generally speaking. Supply determines base cost, margin is determined by volume and competition. Even though Eve isn't what I'd call an extremely efficient market, it is an efficient market, to some extent. The higher the volume the good you are trading/manufacturing, the lower a margin you will be able to make on it.

Originally by: Malcanis

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To put it another way: is there anything you oppose about my suggestion?

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I think it would accomplish exactly the opposite of what you suggest. If the area is good, it'll be either tightly controlled (read: much like T2 BPO's the few will benefit at the expense of the many) or you'll see people coming out to exploit it and then return to high sec. All you'd do is mess up the economy worse than it already is to be honest.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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So help me out here: if you can think of suggestions for making hi-sec basically irrelevent to my 0.0 lifestyle, we can talk about them, refine them and put them forward as a proposal that the majority can support.

One idea that occured to me:

Let's make 0.0 really big. Let's triple it in size. And make most of the new space on the far side of the current outer regions. (I'm all for adding a few new NPC sov regions with lots of empire access points to encourage new 0.0 players but that's a different issue). Basically, I envision areas of 0.0 so far from empire that even with cap ships and jump freighters, it's still worthwhile developing a local economy rather than importing stuff from empire. Maybe with a few "islands" of lo-sec where NPCs can sell skillbooks and T1 BPOs... and perhaps the "islands used to link the new space to current 0.0 so no one alliance can set up a jump bridge network the whole distance.

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Originally by: Khrillian

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Originally by: Malcanis

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So help me out here: if you can think of suggestions for making hi-sec basically irrelevent to my 0.0 lifestyle, we can talk about them, refine them and put them forward as a proposal that the majority can support.

One idea that occured to me:

Let's make 0.0 really big. Let's triple it in size. And make most of the new space on the far side of the current outer regions. (I'm all for adding a few new NPC sov regions with lots of empire access points to encourage new 0.0 players but that's a different issue). Basically, I envision areas of 0.0 so far from empire that even with cap ships and jump freighters, it's still worthwhile developing a local economy rather than importing stuff from empire. Maybe with a few "islands" of lo-sec where NPCs can sell skillbooks and T1 BPOs... and perhaps the "islands used to link the new space to current 0.0 so no one alliance can set up a jump bridge network the whole distance.

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I'll throw out the obvious option that CCP would never implement - PVE servers and PVP servers. It's what basically every other MMO does to solve this problem.

No matter what happens to 0.0 mechanics or region size or whatever, most pvpers will always have a money making empire alt who supports the 0.0 pvp habit. It seems unrealistic to change this (and probably almost impossible unless 0.0 becomes a lot more profitable). In that sense your income will always be tied to your alts income and thus to the activities of carebears.

With your "deep 0.0" regions I think people would still import from empire. Empire is cheaper and risk-free and easy to get your hands on all the materials you need at a steady rate. However it would just be more of a logistical hassle and prices would reflect that. There are luxuries empire manufacturing offers that 0.0 can never have (empire won't get invaded by a hostile alliance, tying up your assets at a station, or have POSes attacked, cutting off your supply of T2 components, etc).

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Originally by: Malcanis

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There's nothing wrong with players controlling regions of 0.0, and I'm not sure why you would think there is. That's the whole point of player sov 0.0.
Additionally, there is a non-trivial expense in resources and time to control space - tripling the amount available will stretch the capabilities of even the largest alliances.

I'm not sure how it would accomplish "the exact opposite"? How would having extremely remote regions of 0.0 in addition to what we have already make the economic effects of empire more prevalent? I'm puzzled?

One of the major issues that I have with hi-sec level 4s is that a single agent can financially support as many players as a whole region of space (especially if that region isn't very good quality). If the "carrying capacity" of 0.0 is greatly expanded, then this will become far less of an issue. You can pick up my faction fit CNR for cheap on contracts and I can make my living in deep, deep 0.0. Bonus!


Anyway look: I don't want to turn this into a slanging match. I've asked for help and ideas - put some out there for me.

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Originally by: Khrillian

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I'll throw out the obvious option that CCP would never implement - PVE servers and PVP servers. It's what basically every other MMO does to solve this problem.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Originally by: Malcanis

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There's nothing wrong with players controlling regions of 0.0, and I'm not sure why you would think there is. That's the whole point of player sov 0.0.
Additionally, there is a non-trivial expense in resources and time to control space - tripling the amount available will stretch the capabilities of even the largest alliances.

I'm not sure how it would accomplish "the exact opposite"? How would having extremely remote regions of 0.0 in addition to what we have already make the economic effects of empire more prevalent? I'm puzzled?

One of the major issues that I have with hi-sec level 4s is that a single agent can financially support as many players as a whole region of space (especially if that region isn't very good quality). If the "carrying capacity" of 0.0 is greatly expanded, then this will become far less of an issue. You can pick up my faction fit CNR for cheap on contracts and I can make my living in deep, deep 0.0. Bonus!


Anyway look: I don't want to turn this into a slanging match. I've asked for help and ideas - put some out there for me.

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Long distance from Empire + alliance control means you'd have a much more difficult (not less difficult) time sustaining yourself in that space. How you could complain about cost increases on faction gear but not mind that you'd be in the middle of nowhere, all economic benefits exploited by the few and by bulk traders of expensive goods and not have alternatives to purchase the more basic items so completely at the whim of whoever controlled the belts...?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff.

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