Originally by: Derek Sigres

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You are correct that assumptions have to be made to generate an argument for or against the current ECM status quo. There are indeed valid points - a single sniper battleship will, in all probability not generate enough damage to instapop a falcon. Insted, you strip the shields and the falcon warps away, removing him from the fight for at least a duration of warp, realinment, warp and relocking targets. While this is certainly a success in the srictest terms can we call it useful? It depends on the situation at play - in a very close fight it's probably not going to make a difference but if the odds (numeric in terms of firepower etc) are in the favor of the side without a falcon, it may make all the difference in the world.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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One can look at the arugment regarding an additional falcon and rook in the same fashion. Both ships are well insulated against ECM, with better sensor strength than your average battleship. Both types of ships carry equal jammers and equal jamming capability in an "all else being equal" sort of situation (it's a sphere in a vacuum). Though this scenario plays out all the time, people never really seem to understand exactly what happens when two ECM ships start tangling.

...

Your counter ECM pilot is, as such at a tremendous disadvantage. If there is a single caldari ship on the opposing side fitted for ranged combat they have absolutely nothing to throw at them, other than the wrong flavor of racial, and it is at this moment that we find the true weakness of countering ECM with more ECM. Once your hand has been played and you reaveal your counter falcon, the entire opposing gang knows exactly who to shoot and that falcon only has four jammers left to defend itself with.

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Originally by: Cpt Cosmic

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Originally by: Damned Force

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Damn a Lachesis is able to damp my fully sensorboosted carriers lockrange to 50km and so make me sitting while killed....
A single Lachesis... 100% of the time.....

Damn thats overpowered. a falcon cant do this...... nerf the lachesis????? NO!!!!!!!!!!!

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if you use a carrier and dont bring in a fleet to defend you from superior forces, thats your problem. u still can lock and u still can use drones.

well, if a falcon comes in @150+ km, you can do nothing, except for hoping your fighters or drones wont do something stupid. and a falcon can jam much more targets, while the gallente recon can only effectively hinder only one target @much shorter range, that still can lock and shot if it gets close enough to someone.

go back to your cave fail troll

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Originally by: Damned Force

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Now try to calculate out how many % chance the falcon would have to jam the carrier. and the falcon from 150km cant hold down the carrier but a lachess from 48 can....and he can evendamp the carrier under this...
so u failed

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: Damned Force

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Now try to calculate out how many % chance the falcon would have to jam the carrier. and the falcon from 150km cant hold down the carrier but a lachess from 48 can....and he can evendamp the carrier under this...
so u failed

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This is only like, relevant in a lachersis vs a solo carrier example.... which is a very common situation!

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Originally by: Damned Force

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Is very rare u can permajam 2-3 BS from 228km and if u fail u down.

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Quote:

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Is very rare that with 3 eccm u jammed over a minute

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/08/2008 13:06:15

Originally by: Damned Force

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Is very rare u can permajam 2-3 BS from 228km and if u fail u down.

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You're generally not down, because sniper fits are quite rare (and specialist counter-ECM fits anyway), and you're not getting instapopped by a lone sniper, unless you somehow get over 6K alpha at 228km (which you don't, sorry).

What is rare is falcons operating at 220-ish km - 150-180km seems far more common.

It's definitely less rare then finding a solo carrier

Quote:

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Is very rare that with 3 eccm u jammed over a minute

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As is having 3 ECCM. Most ships can fit 1 without too many sacrifices - 2 are already a stretch and three will murder any fit (sniper fits, too).

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Quote:

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Is very rare that with 3 eccm u jammed over a minute

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As is having 3 ECCM. Most ships can fit 1 without too many sacrifices - 2 are already a stretch and three will murder any fit (sniper fits, too).

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Edited by: Lorz0r on 25/08/2008 15:11:39

Originally by: Ruciza

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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We are using them and they don't work.

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How are you using them?

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We run a RR guardian gang. Every BS has 1 ECCM module (overloaded) and the guardians fill BOTH of their 2 midslots with ECCM (overloaded) We also have a remote ECCM Command ship to stop the guardians getting jammed as thats game over if they are. They had 2 falcons and a scorpion and jammed every single ship in the gang (7 total).

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uhm, dood, they had 3 ewar ships to yours adn you got pwn'd... you couldnt alpha the falcons, you had no light support to go out there and harrass them, you died cause you dont know what you are doing. Just because it works and people use it doesn't mean its overpowered... the ECM ships do nothing but ECM, so either deal with it or die

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the guardians do nothing but RR, my DPS Battleship does nothing but DPS, whats your point? that because a ship has one role that it should be insanely overpowered?

Yeah it's kinda hard to alpha Falcons nevermind a scorpion sat 180km away without a gang of ECCM'd up the ass sniping battleships. moron. This is the guy callin me a moron

It's true we don't know what we're doing at all. We fit masses and masses of ECCM to counter ECM and it does sweet **** all. From now on if we see falcons flying around we just won't engage. It doesn't make PvP FUN and it certainly doesn't make it fair.

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so you got 79 losses for 74 killz... m8 thats why you shouldn't talk.... just STFU, you have no idea about PVP you have no idea what you are talking about and you are a flat out joke. So lets school you on how stuff works on eve, and oh yeah, i am a cranky old man cause i am tired of people like this with 5 seconds as a pod pilot mouthin off about a game he clearly has no clue about.

IF ECCM worked any more effectively there would be no use to the ship, ECCM is extremely useful for caps, its useful for BS's and not for anything else. You need to close distance and kill falcons. Logistics ships can provide alot of rep, ECM can provide reduced damage. how many times do you need to have it spelled out for you, YOU NEED TO FLY A BALANCED FLEET, NOT JUST 1 THING, NOT JUST SPEED, NOT JUST EWAR, NOT JUST CAP, NOT JUST DAMAGE.... you fail because... you fail nuthin else needs to be said

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Originally by: Wannabehero

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Quote:

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Is very rare that with 3 eccm u jammed over a minute

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As is having 3 ECCM. Most ships can fit 1 without too many sacrifices - 2 are already a stretch and three will murder any fit (sniper fits, too).

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Only one I have ever seen that works in practicality

[Raven, Remote_Armor ECM_Def]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

ECCM - Gravimetric II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

Ionic Field Projector I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I

Granted, long range missile boats are not optimal for chasing off falcons, as they have 20 - 25 seconds to warp off before the missiles start to land. If the falcon has bookmarks then he can just happily hop around the grid without a care in the world. A full gang of these ships however is very well insulated from every effective form of EW.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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And completely dead against anything else.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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The thing is, full spectrum fleet composition is really next to impossible for smaller gangs, which is where people encounter (and get annoyed at) Falcons the most.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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And completely dead against anything else.

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Well, that would be why you fly in gangs yes? To fill in holes in your defenses?

Plus, you are quite hung up on the whole point blank damage ships it seems in your arguments - and the raven displayed fights at anything but point blank range.

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Originally by: The Tzar

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How the b'jeeezus are people saying that ECCM is weak?

It is the most effective form of anti-ewar available.

Show me another form of anti-ewar that doubles the receivers chance of defense?

Tracking computers are what like 20% or something?

Target Painters can mitigated with expensive implants, no module that I know of...

Warp Scram/'ruptors I guess have a counter but who in there right mind would use them considering the extreme costs to lock range and time?

Nos/Neut have cap boosters, this is no counter however as the effect still occurs.

Webs reduce the speed of said victim to 10% so have a x10 effect on speed, MWD only counter this effect by x6 but you'll get shot to hell with increase sig radius.

ECCM are fine, falcons are fine stop patrolling round in gangs of only 5 BS would be my suggestion and bring some anti falcon ships like...., hmmm let me think; zealot, vaga, ishtar, crow, malediction, taranis, arazu, curse, pilgrim, raven, nanophoon etc...

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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And completely dead against anything else.

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Well, that would be why you fly in gangs yes? To fill in holes in your defenses?

Plus, you are quite hung up on the whole point blank damage ships it seems in your arguments - and the raven displayed fights at anything but point blank range.

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Well you said a full gang of them. You mean as part of a fleet?

Personally if anyone wanted to fly that ship in my gang I'd tell them to FO. It's much more efficient to have remote ECCM handed out to ships that are actually good at sniping.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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So we're not allowed 5 man gangs now? Blob warefare woohoo!

The reason why the counter to ECCM is better than other counters is because unlike target painters, tracking scripts and webs is because ECM effectively makes your ship useless. You just sit and wait to die.

PS. Any one of them ships will be permajammed if it went 1v1 against a Falcon without alot of ECCM. It's happened loads of times - an inty thinks he'll come get our falcon and he just gets permajammed until the end of the fight then the falcon just warps off.

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Quote:

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PS. Any one of them ships will be permajammed if it went 1v1 against a Falcon without alot of ECCM. It's happened loads of times - an inty thinks he'll come get our falcon and he just gets permajammed until the end of the fight then the falcon just warps off.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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And completely dead against anything else.

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Well, that would be why you fly in gangs yes? To fill in holes in your defenses?

Plus, you are quite hung up on the whole point blank damage ships it seems in your arguments - and the raven displayed fights at anything but point blank range.

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Well you said a full gang of them. You mean as part of a fleet?

Personally if anyone wanted to fly that ship in my gang I'd tell them to FO. It's much more efficient to have remote ECCM handed out to ships that are actually good at sniping.

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No, I never argued for a full gang of anti support. Such a gang is just as silly as a full gang of falcons. Yes, in THEORY a load of falcons can kill anything but the difference between theory and fact is a whole lot of stupid in this case. In fact, if you look at my suggestion for a 10 man gang composition it's 2 ECM support 1 anti support and 7 gank/tank/tackle ships, and I pointed out that said gang would easily win against a 10 man gank/tank/tackle mix.

My point is balance in your fleet composition is what's going to determine just how effective you are in a given situation, and illustrated that while a balanced gang sacrifices firepower it still manages to achieve firepower superiority in an even battle against a gang compoosed entirely of ships selected FOR firepower superiority.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Falcons are overpowered - prima facie evidence for this is the rarity of Rooks. But a bigger problem appears to be a fundamental lack of imagination.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Falcons are overpowered - prima facie evidence for this is the rarity of Rooks. But a bigger problem appears to be a fundamental lack of imagination.

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I will agree that the Falcon has supplanted the Rook as the ultimate badass of ECM support, but this doesn't really make the falcon overpowerd. Indeed, the rook is actually better at jamming from a jamming perspective. Afterall, it's got the same number of same strength jammers, it has a natively longer range, it has better sensors in general, it has more EHP (not a LOT more but more nevertheless) and it actually has some teeth.

All the falcon has counted in it's favor is equal jamming strength and the covert ops cloak. But what exactly is the Cloak for? In the strictest terms it's a surival mechanism - if they can't see you you probably won't explode. In the actual "overpowered" terms it denies the enemy the knowledge they are fighting a gang that includes an ECM ship. This doesn't make the falcon overpowered in the slightest - it simply capitalizes on the fact that anything you can spring as a surprise will push the odds in your favor.

But, again, my basic point overall is while you can certainly nerf the falcon, doing so won't change the fact that a falcon will remove 3 battleships worth of DPS from an engagement on average. I'm not kind hearted enough towards the nerf brigade to even BEGIN to belive that forcing a falcon into closer ranges or giving it lower sensor strength will satisfy them. Their goal all along seems to be to eleminate any module, ship or strategy that provides an alternate path to success other than firepower and tank. Nerf the falcon to uselessness and the rook becomes the new hate target. Nerf that and it's the scorpion. Then the blackbird and so on down the line until the caldari ECM ship lineup is neutered like the gallente recons.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Yeah you did. 'A full gang of these ships however is very well insulated from every effective form of EW.'

Well if youre gonna theorycraft then I would just fly with 5 battleships and 5 falcons. Jam absolutely everything and let the 5 battleships clean up with no fighting back. You're wrong. My gang has an infinate amount more firepower. There's no balance in that gang and I would clearly win.

Why bother flying with an anti-support battleship when I can just fly another falcon? Why do no roaming gangs have sniping battleships but have ECM ships coming out of their ass? thats because it's much, MUCCCCH easier to fly around with a cloaked recon than a piece of shit sniping battleship which is useless at anything else but sniping.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Before the ECM boost to Falcons I don't ever remember there being a problem with Scorpions or Rooks, I see them about as often now as I did back then. Falcon's are just everywhere now (or not ;)) and that was only because of the patch.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Edited by: Derek Sigres on 27/08/2008 17:21:35
Edit - removed pyramid quote

Originally by: Lorz0r

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Yeah you did. 'A full gang of these ships however is very well insulated from every effective form of EW.'

Well if youre gonna theorycraft then I would just fly with 5 battleships and 5 falcons. Jam absolutely everything and let the 5 battleships clean up with no fighting back. You're wrong. My gang has an infinate amount more firepower. There's no balance in that gang and I would clearly win.

Why bother flying with an anti-support battleship when I can just fly another falcon? Why do no roaming gangs have sniping battleships but have ECM ships coming out of their ass? thats because it's much, MUCCCCH easier to fly around with a cloaked recon than a piece of shit sniping battleship which is useless at anything else but sniping.

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In order to WIN at PVP in eve you MUST achieve firepower and tank superiority. ECM contributes no firepower and no tank, instead it DEGRADES the opposing team's firepower and tank superiority.

5 falcons and 5 battleships will be handily bested by 5 dedicated anti support ships and 5 battleships. A single cerberus can drive a falcon from the field easily and it can, with it's high ROF consistantly drive away a handful of said ships. An eagle accomplishes the same thing - and the really NEAT thing is they do so with amazingly high sensor strength making them exceedingly difficult to counter with falcons, especially given the aformentioned finite number of caldari jammers.

But why stop there? One can bring 5 battleships and 5 ravens fit for anti support. With no modules they can sling a missile out to max lock range, and a pair of sensor boosters and some ECCM handily insulates them from ECM on the other side. Their alpha strike is handily more than half of a Falcon's EHP. Sure they are relatively flimsy, but the end result is, in the space of a few seconds the Ravens drive the falcons from the field and start adding their considerable (in excess of 500) dps on the other battleships.

An imbalanced gang is easy to counter with another imbalanced gang. A balanced gang on the other hand is going to be far more difficult and this is the part I don't think you understand. Inbalance only works until your enemy catches on.

And incidientally, the gentleman who presented the anti-support raven is who said a full gang of these is very insulated against ECM, not me. I just quoted him and added my perspective.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Well what I don't think you seem to understand is the fact that Anti-support battleships have no place in roaming gangs. It is much easier (and better) to fly another falcon. Infact it's so easy to fly a falcon you can dual account one and barely have to touch it. That is the reason I believe so many exist. Just buy an alt who can fly a Falcon and BAM - you've got one of the best ships in the game and any moron can fly it well.

By the way 5 falcons will easily jam 5 anti-support battleships.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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So, tell me - is it better to have an imbalanced ECM heavy gang confront an imbalanced ECM heavy gang or an imbalanced anti-support heavy gang? Seems to me the support gang actually has the potential to easily win the battle, while the ECM gang is just going to stalemate. Make you own decision here.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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So, tell me - is it better to have an imbalanced ECM heavy gang confront an imbalanced ECM heavy gang or an imbalanced anti-support heavy gang? Seems to me the support gang actually has the potential to easily win the battle, while the ECM gang is just going to stalemate. Make you own decision here.

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The other interesting thing is that I'm pretty sure that you can run those anti-support Ravens as DPS machines vs whatever you fight too.

-Liang

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Yeah you did. 'A full gang of these ships however is very well insulated from every effective form of EW.'

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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The other interesting thing is that I'm pretty sure that you can run those anti-support Ravens as DPS machines vs whatever you fight too.

-Liang

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Yep, 3 BCS cruise raven with faction ammo means more than 3k alpha and more than 500 DPS (3.5k alpha and 550 dps with max skills if I'm not mistaken). Plus, delivery of said hate and discontent out to 249km. Yes the ship is flimsy, but according to the person I posted in response too the opposing gang is comprised of short ranged gank ships - the ravens therefore don't have to tank anything until the end game (if they lose)

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Well what I don't think you seem to understand is the fact that Anti-support battleships have no place in roaming gangs. It is much easier (and better) to fly another falcon. Infact it's so easy to fly a falcon you can dual account one and barely have to touch it. That is the reason I believe so many exist. Just buy an alt who can fly a Falcon and BAM - you've got one of the best ships in the game and any moron can fly it well.

By the way 5 falcons will easily jam 5 anti-support battleships.

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By dedicating an inordinate number of jammers to the anti-support ships perhaps. But given the handily available 60+ sensor strength an anti-support raven achieves a 23% chance to be jammed per module. A SINLGE volley from a falcon will drive a falcon from the field (you remove the shield and most of the armor in that volley), and if the falcon isn't already aligned when that first volley makes contact it almost certainly dies.

The 5 falcons have 30 jammers at their disposal. Assuming the 5 falcons are fit like the bog standard falcon that means they have 2 caldari jammers each - meaning there are a total of 10 caldari jammers being fielded. With that number of jammers you will certainly miss locks on those anti-support ships, and if a single anti-support ship is unjammed it drives a falcon from the field every 9 seconds or so.

Relying purely on jamming ability to win (as the gang you present clearly is trying to do) means that you rely on not missing those critical jams. If a single support raven remains unjammed long enough to lock and fire (and they have a VERY Good chance of that happening) you find the whole jamming defense rapidly falls apart.

On the other side of the coin, bringing 5 falcons of your own does little more than achieve parity in electronic superiority. Basically a percentage of falcons on each side will be out of the fight in roughly equal measure. Such a gang is actually likely to achieve a stalemate more than anything else as there are enough jammers remaining on each side to essentially remove every ship from the battle.

So, tell me - is it better to have an imbalanced ECM heavy gang confront an imbalanced ECM heavy gang or an imbalanced anti-support heavy gang? Seems to me the support gang actually has the potential to easily win the battle, while the ECM gang is just going to stalemate. Make you own decision here.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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I admit that raven is quite a useful anti-falcon setup and you're possibly right in saying that those 2 imbalanced setups could be a win for the anti-support.

In a personal sense though the Falcon still wins, he runs and fights another day and you almost definately lose your Raven because it's ****-weak and will die to a strong gust of wind. Sure you made the Falcon run but he's still got 2 cycles of jamming off and that can still easily turn the tide of a battle. 40 seconds is a very long time to remain jammed in such a matchup.

Then theres nothing stopping the Falcon coming back again to get another 2 cycles of jamming off and possibly jamming the raven as well or after the raven has died in about 10 seconds flat. It can also just warp to other bookmarks if they are available. If the falcon pilot starts flying smart like the anti-support then things start to go the falcons way again. It's just most falcon pilots don't because it's ridiculously easy to fly.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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I admit that raven is quite a useful anti-falcon setup and you're possibly right in saying that those 2 imbalanced setups could be a win for the anti-support.

In a personal sense though the Falcon still wins, he runs and fights another day and you almost definately lose your Raven because it's ****-weak and will die to a strong gust of wind. Sure you made the Falcon run but he's still got 2 cycles of jamming off and that can still easily turn the tide of a battle. 40 seconds is a very long time to remain jammed in such a matchup.

Then theres nothing stopping the Falcon coming back again to get another 2 cycles of jamming off and possibly jamming the raven as well or after the raven has died in about 10 seconds flat. It can also just warp to other bookmarks if they are available. If the falcon pilot starts flying smart like the anti-support then things start to go the falcons way again. It's just most falcon pilots don't because it's ridiculously easy to fly.

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