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Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:52:00 - [61] Originally by: Seishomaru Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Lorz0r An MWD? no we don't fit them. We fit 2 caldari jammers, 2 minmatar and 1 amarr and 1 gallente jammer normally, obviously that does change alot. He doesn't need to know shit about the gang. He sits 180km away and jams the ECCM'd ships with whatever hes got fitted and jams the non-ECCM'd ships slightly more. You're right I don't give a flying shit about other ranged combatants as they are nothing more than a minor annoyance most of the time, the Falcon isn't though. You're entirely right. You CAN just not fit a MWD AND carry 6 jammers AND jam at 180km. But if you're going to dump that MWD and fit a sensor booster (because without one you don't jam at 180km given your max long range is 150km), you might as well throw on some jammer range rigs and sit even further way. To your last comment, I just have to say not giving a "flying shit" about ranged combatants is a rather odd state of affairs. Afterall, those ranged combatants sling pain, falcons just sling annoyance and frustration. I'd much rather have a Rokh doing 400 DPS at 180km than a Falcon jamming me constantly. Jammed more than once and thats you jammed for 40 seconds minimum. Most of our fights wont last over more than 2 minutes. With relock times I might as well not have turned up. Something like doubling the strength of ECCM or allowing only 1 ECM module active per ship would at least help the problem. WTB rokh taht can deal 400 dps at 180 km..... (hint only BS taht can do that is APOC). That simply proves you have no cvlue and rest of your statement can be discarded as equaly wrong. Try again next year. /care I was what 80 DPS off? dry your eyes princess
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:55:00 - [62] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Lorz0r The way I see it, 2 ECCM's should make any ship just about invulnerable to ECM. using 2 midslots just on the offchance someone is gonna be using ECM is a fair tradeoff if you ask me. By that logic my four slot PVP raven tank ought to make me invincible to guns. Let's face it - unless you fundamentally change the way sensors and ECM works, ECCM is not going to accmoplish anything but decrease your odds of being jammed. It doesn't matter if ECCM handed out 200% bonuses - you'll STILL get jammed from time to time. Personally, while I think there are LOTS of solutions to the issue working within the current game structure (I.E. ECCM is a SB script rather than a seperate slot item), better solutions to the problem can be reformulated. As an example - if ECCM increases sensor strength in an attempt to "overpower" the ECM signal, what's to say one couldn't have a backup sensor array that actually acted like a backup? The array would in essence provide a baseline set of stats for function when primary sensors are jammed, offset by a "recalibration" time (I.E. it takes 5 seconds to swap sensors as an example) or perhaps by inferior sensor stats (such as very low scan res/lock range). In effect, the SB scripted ECCM module would insulate you against ECM while providing other tangible benefits in an ECM free environmen, while the backup array would in effect mitigate the effects of a single jammer. One could as such build a fully ECM proof ship, but such a fitting would essentially be custom built for the express purpose of killing ECM ships, and would end up suitably flimnsy and undergunned as a result (like the ship it's trying to counter of course). Well that's my argument. If a fleet of battleships all have to give up 2 midslots for ECCM I think that's a massive sacrifice. Amarr and Caldari ships will really struggle to find the slots for 2 ECCM mods especially.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.25 14:37:00 - [63] Edited by: Ruciza on 25/08/2008 14:43:40 Originally by: Lorz0r Well that's my argument. If a fleet of battleships all have to give up 2 midslots for ECCM I think that's a massive sacrifice. Amarr and Caldari ships will really struggle to find the slots for 2 ECCM mods especially. Maybe it is time to accept ECM as a given, and always take it into account, like the infernal "mwd requirement" or maybe the fact that many people fit webs (you take things like that into account too, aren't ya) and have ships in gang that can deal with the ECM threat. There are support and EW ships who do just that, like the Oneiros and the Gallente Recons. In conjunction with an ECCM'd gang you will not fear ECM anymore. The point is, there are ways to counter ECM, so better start using them or frustratingly lose to the Falcons. Your choice.
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.25 15:04:00 - [64] Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 25/08/2008 14:43:40 Originally by: Lorz0r Well that's my argument. If a fleet of battleships all have to give up 2 midslots for ECCM I think that's a massive sacrifice. Amarr and Caldari ships will really struggle to find the slots for 2 ECCM mods especially. Maybe it is time to accept ECM as a given, and always take it into account, like the infernal "mwd requirement" or maybe the fact that many people fit webs (you take things like that into account too, aren't ya) and have ships in gang that can deal with the ECM threat. There are support and EW ships who do just that, like the Oneiros and the Gallente Recons. In conjunction with an ECCM'd gang you will not fear ECM anymore. The point is, there are ways to counter ECM, so better start using them or frustratingly lose to the Falcons. Your choice. We are using them and they don't work.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.25 15:09:00 - [65] Edited by: Ruciza on 25/08/2008 15:09:29 Originally by: Lorz0r We are using them and they don't work. How are you using them?
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.25 15:11:00 - [66] Edited by: Lorz0r on 25/08/2008 15:11:39 Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lorz0r We are using them and they don't work. How are you using them? We run a RR guardian gang. Every BS has 1 ECCM module (overloaded) and the guardians fill BOTH of their 2 midslots with ECCM (overloaded) We also have a remote ECCM Command ship to stop the guardians getting jammed as thats game over if they are. They had 2 falcons and a scorpion and jammed every single ship in the gang (7 total).
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:05:00 - [67] As far as small gang warfare goes it generally happens like this. If they have a falcon and you don't then don't bother fighting. Like someone said before about the "infernal MWD requirement" a ECM ship is quickly becoming something that you HAVE to have. My gang uses a a "Electronic Support Domi" loaded up with ECCM and remote ECCM but honestly, it just isn't enough. The only way that we generally win against gangs that are packing falcons is to either bring one electronic support domi and have everyone in the gang mount ECCM as well, Or bring two electronic support domi's. That's a lot of mods to have to fit to only deal with 1 type of e-war.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:15:00 - [68] Originally by: Lorz0r We are using them and they don't work. I think this is an unfair and untrue statement. ECCM works. The only argument you can make is it doesn't work well enough on a slot per slot basis, and this has some merit.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:24:00 - [69] ECCM alone is not enough. You need to actively do something, and that is engage them with damps, best on Gallente Recons. The other way is to blow them away with rails, which can be linked for added range. The impression of overpoweredness comes only from misunderstanding how damp falloff works, and that nobody thinks about proper remote support. ECM reminds you that the dps craze is not the only way.
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:25:00 - [70] Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 25/08/2008 17:31:24 Edited by: Ruciza on 25/08/2008 17:28:13 ECCM alone is not enough. You need to actively do something, and that is engage them with damps, best on Gallente Recons. The other way is to blow them away with rails, which can be linked for added range. The impression of overpoweredness comes only from misunderstanding how damp falloff works, and that nobody thinks about proper remote support. ECM reminds you that the dps craze is not the only way. ECCM only decreases jamming chances. ECCM plus active countermeasures is what wins. ECM is not overpowered, it's smart. What would you DO if your enemy suddenly starts fielding so many ECM that every second ship is an ECM ship? So because a Falcon can sit 180km away and jam everyone our gang has to fit ECCM on all our ships AND have additional ships that can counter it. It's easier to just have your own falcon to counter it. If it's not overpowered and so easy why does everyone have one?

venus divine	Posted - 2008.08.26 07:34:00 - [71] Gallente EW has very limited range. On Arazu, u can barely get 90km range, maybe 120km if u fit additional rigs for range increase. After that, damps are useless.. While rook/falcon can jam at 180km. And if my gang with arazu/lachesis jumps into gate camp, supported by falcon, there is ussualy pretty slim chance of getting that lach/arazu out of battlefield so it can warp closer to ecm ship. Adn even then it hard to get closer cause recons are paper thin and ussualy get primaried:D If not, while u are approaching falcon, u can get jammed prety easily.. On the other note. We are talking here about all kinds of combat, so dont give me shit about poping falcons with rails. How many roaming gangs has a mega with rails along? Ussualy that mega brings neutrons.. I know, that i got jammed like 40% of a fight last night while fitting dual ECCM on my megathron. I had sensor strength of like 100 and that falcon was still disabling me every second cycle. With locking time of 10secs on battlecruiser, i barely managed to lock him to set my drones onto him, and then pum, jammed..
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.08.26 10:40:00 - [72] the best counter to falcons are falcons. I fit an eccm on all my geddons (3mids). would be nice if it worked a little bit better, but it does in fact work. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.26 14:26:00 - [73] Originally by: Lorz0r Edited by: Lorz0r on 25/08/2008 15:11:39 Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lorz0r We are using them and they don't work. How are you using them? We run a RR guardian gang. Every BS has 1 ECCM module (overloaded) and the guardians fill BOTH of their 2 midslots with ECCM (overloaded) We also have a remote ECCM Command ship to stop the guardians getting jammed as thats game over if they are. They had 2 falcons and a scorpion and jammed every single ship in the gang (7 total). uhm, dood, they had 3 ewar ships to yours adn you got pwn'd... you couldnt alpha the falcons, you had no light support to go out there and harrass them, you died cause you dont know what you are doing. Just because it works and people use it doesn't mean its overpowered... the ECM ships do nothing but ECM, so either deal with it or die
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.26 16:29:00 - [74] What about making it so that if the Falcon warps or cloaks then the jams cease instead of continuing till the end of the 20 secs. THe Falcon however, must wait the full 20 secs before jamming again. So it is just as effective at jamming but if it wants to keep jamming stuff it has to stay in the battle. This would make things like stealth bombers decent counters as they can force a falcon to die or stop jamming. The Falcon can still do its job but can also be forced off/countered. The stealth bomber / falcon cat and mouse could be fun since the bombers lock so fast and can cloak too. The problem with the current situation is that the Falcon can jam then cloak or warp and the jams keep going which does seem OP. Nothing else really works when cloaked.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.08.26 19:15:00 - [75] Edited by: OffBeaT on 26/08/2008 19:23:30 Edited by: OffBeaT on 26/08/2008 19:19:49 Originally by: venus divine Gallente EW has very limited range. On Arazu, u can barely get 90km range, maybe 120km if u fit additional rigs for range increase. After that, damps are useless.. While rook/falcon can jam at 180km. And if my gang with arazu/lachesis jumps into gate camp, supported by falcon, there is ussualy pretty slim chance of getting that lach/arazu out of battlefield so it can warp closer to ecm ship. Adn even then it hard to get closer cause recons are paper thin and ussualy get primaried:D If not, while u are approaching falcon, u can get jammed prety easily.. On the other note. We are talking here about all kinds of combat, so dont give me shit about poping falcons with rails. How many roaming gangs has a mega with rails along? Ussualy that mega brings neutrons.. I know, that i got jammed like 40% of a fight last night while fitting dual ECCM on my megathron. I had sensor strength of like 100 and that falcon was still disabling me every second cycle. With locking time of 10secs on battlecruiser, i barely managed to lock him to set my drones onto him, and then pum, jammed.. you know in the day i use too fight in a raven racked with damps. i could hold off 2 bs with incomming frigs trying too worp jam me. i would say you need too start thinking diffrent abuot your combat.. if the ship can jam at 180k from you i would say start book marking evrywhere around your gates you fight around. start trusting damps in combat rather then ecm. there are ways to fight around ecm tanked ships. pluss you are right the range of damps needs too be better too combat ecm for a short fix.
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.26 20:13:00 - [76] Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Lorz0r Edited by: Lorz0r on 25/08/2008 15:11:39 Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lorz0r We are using them and they don't work. How are you using them? We run a RR guardian gang. Every BS has 1 ECCM module (overloaded) and the guardians fill BOTH of their 2 midslots with ECCM (overloaded) We also have a remote ECCM Command ship to stop the guardians getting jammed as thats game over if they are. They had 2 falcons and a scorpion and jammed every single ship in the gang (7 total). uhm, dood, they had 3 ewar ships to yours adn you got pwn'd... you couldnt alpha the falcons, you had no light support to go out there and harrass them, you died cause you dont know what you are doing. Just because it works and people use it doesn't mean its overpowered... the ECM ships do nothing but ECM, so either deal with it or die the guardians do nothing but RR, my DPS Battleship does nothing but DPS, whats your point? that because a ship has one role that it should be insanely overpowered? Yeah it's kinda hard to alpha Falcons nevermind a scorpion sat 180km away without a gang of ECCM'd up the ass sniping battleships. moron. It's true we don't know what we're doing at all. We fit masses and masses of ECCM to counter ECM and it does sweet **** all. From now on if we see falcons flying around we just won't engage. It doesn't make PvP FUN and it certainly doesn't make it fair.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.26 22:09:00 - [77] Originally by: Lorz0r the guardians do nothing but RR, my DPS Battleship does nothing but DPS, whats your point? that because a ship has one role that it should be insanely overpowered? Yeah it's kinda hard to alpha Falcons nevermind a scorpion sat 180km away without a gang of ECCM'd up the ass sniping battleships. moron. It's true we don't know what we're doing at all. We fit masses and masses of ECCM to counter ECM and it does sweet **** all. From now on if we see falcons flying around we just won't engage. It doesn't make PvP FUN and it certainly doesn't make it fair. First, you are missing a key point. An RR Gang is relying on unbelievably thick tank to survive - essentially hoping to outlast the opposition, in what amounts to the tank answer to gank. A gankship relies on pure firepower to see it through a battle. Oddly enough, ECM is designed explicitly to deny enemy locks - in short it's designed explicitly to deny projected offesnive and defensive measures. Your issue is you seem to think there ought to be some form of entitlement to one strategy over another. A gang purely fitted for a very specific task, be it close range firepower or pure tanking ability is running a tremendous gamble. If you meet the exact sort of gang your own ship setup is designed to counter, you win the battle by default, but the moment you run into a scenario that your ship wasn't designed to counter you get ripped apart. Gank gangs can be picked to pieces by sniper gangs, nano ships are foiled by RR gangs and so forth. A balanced gang offers you the ability to operate in a wider variety of scenarios with better success. To say "to hell with long ranged combat" and then complain when met by a long ranged ship that decimates you is a hilarious example of sticking one's head in the sand. Falcons exist - even if they didn't you STILL have to Scorpion (which people don't complain about) and the Rook, and the rook is just plain better at the jamming game than the Falcon. To ignore their existance, to consistantly enter space with gangs and fittings that disregard the very real possiblity the opposing force will field ECM, to absolutely REFUSE to assess the trend here and move to counter it makes this problem entirely your fault. Trying to paint this picture that the falcon is overpowered when you state again and again that you are both disregarding the use of any ship useful for killing/driving them off while making blanket claims that ECCM doesn't accomplish anything makes me wonder about the credibility of either position. ECCM works - it does in fact RAISE your sensor strength when activated which does in fact lower you chances to get jammed. You cannot argue against this basic fact and expect to be taken seriously. You CAN however argue that it is simply not effective enough/effecient enough in it's current state, an argument that holds a fair amount of merit. So, I am left with simply begging you. When you post, try to avoid making blatantly false statements regarding a module. And more importantly, dig your head out of the sand, and stop refusing to bring ships for the purpose of killing ECM boats. ECM, like opposing firepower should be expected as a rule, not a worst case scenario.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.26 22:25:00 - [78] Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 25/08/2008 17:31:24 Edited by: Ruciza on 25/08/2008 17:28:13 ECCM alone is not enough. You need to actively do something, and that is engage them with damps, best on Gallente Recons. The other way is to blow them away with rails, which can be linked for added range. The impression of overpoweredness comes only from misunderstanding how damp falloff works, and that nobody thinks about proper remote support. ECM reminds you that the dps craze is not the only way. ECCM only decreases jamming chances. ECCM plus active countermeasures is what wins. ECM is not overpowered, it's smart. What would you DO if your enemy suddenly starts fielding so many ECM that every second ship is an ECM ship? So because a Falcon can sit 180km away and jam everyone our gang has to fit ECCM on all our ships AND have additional ships that can counter it. It's easier to just have your own falcon to counter it. If it's not overpowered and so easy why does everyone have one? I havent been grouped with one for months. Would have been nice to have one in the caladari militia but I would have settled for a griffen from that rabble. I always fit either a ECCM on my geddon or remote ECCM if the gang is well organised. I can spend 70% of the fight jammed or go the whole fight free, ECCM is not made to be 100% effective, just effective enough to deal with the problem. If in my snipoc all I need is a handfull of gaps in the jam cycles and I win.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.27 04:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Lorz0r Edited by: Lorz0r on 25/08/2008 15:11:39 Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lorz0r We are using them and they don't work. How are you using them? We run a RR guardian gang. Every BS has 1 ECCM module (overloaded) and the guardians fill BOTH of their 2 midslots with ECCM (overloaded) We also have a remote ECCM Command ship to stop the guardians getting jammed as thats game over if they are. They had 2 falcons and a scorpion and jammed every single ship in the gang (7 total). uhm, dood, they had 3 ewar ships to yours adn you got pwn'd... you couldnt alpha the falcons, you had no light support to go out there and harrass them, you died cause you dont know what you are doing. Just because it works and people use it doesn't mean its overpowered... the ECM ships do nothing but ECM, so either deal with it or die the guardians do nothing but RR, my DPS Battleship does nothing but DPS, whats your point? that because a ship has one role that it should be insanely overpowered? Yeah it's kinda hard to alpha Falcons nevermind a scorpion sat 180km away without a gang of ECCM'd up the ass sniping battleships. moron. This is the guy callin me a moron It's true we don't know what we're doing at all. We fit masses and masses of ECCM to counter ECM and it does sweet **** all. From now on if we see falcons flying around we just won't engage. It doesn't make PvP FUN and it certainly doesn't make it fair. so you got 79 losses for 74 killz... m8 thats why you shouldn't talk.... just STFU, you have no idea about PVP you have no idea what you are talking about and you are a flat out joke. So lets school you on how stuff works on eve, and oh yeah, i am a cranky old man cause i am tired of people like this with 5 seconds as a pod pilot mouthin off about a game he clearly has no clue about. IF ECCM worked any more effectively there would be no use to the ship, ECCM is extremely useful for caps, its useful for BS's and not for anything else. You need to close distance and kill falcons. Logistics ships can provide alot of rep, ECM can provide reduced damage. how many times do you need to have it spelled out for you, YOU NEED TO FLY A BALANCED FLEET, NOT JUST 1 THING, NOT JUST SPEED, NOT JUST EWAR, NOT JUST CAP, NOT JUST DAMAGE.... you fail because... you fail nuthin else needs to be said
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.27 04:16:00 - [80] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ralara The odds are that Each BS, (4 BS vs 1 Falcon) will be able to fire once every 3 cycles. 4 BS, 3 cycles - at any one time at least 1 BS will be firing. Pop goes the falcon. That' assuming the Falcon has nothing else in its mids and the BS have no ECCM at all. But that scenario doesn't happen. It's also funny to note that if any two BS's are of the same race the Falcon is likely to instapop. Everyone always assumes that the Falcon has 5 Amarr racial jammers one second and 5 Caldari the next. -Liang You're throwing 'instapop' around very lightly. First off, it's not that likely to instapop - we've fired snipers at falcons, and unless they're not aligned they're getting away generally. Producing 6K alpha at the ranges Falcons operate is not so easy for a single sniper - you'd need two. Secondly, it's funny how you assume you'll have multiple snipers (which are hugely incompatible with short range gangs and only really nice on defence) in a gang. There is a lot of assumptions being thrown around. Generally, the best way to neutralize a falcon is a falcon/rook, and a sniper coming next - the best way to kill a Falcon is to have a nanoship get up to it (well, yeah, multiple snipers, but they're very specific tools so a small gang is very unlikely to have them). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint

Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.27 06:28:00 - [81] Originally by: Cpt Branko Secondly, it's funny how you assume you'll have multiple snipers (which are hugely incompatible with short range gangs and only really nice on defence) in a gang. There is a lot of assumptions being thrown around. Generally, the best way to neutralize a falcon is a falcon/rook, and a sniper coming next - the best way to kill a Falcon is to have a nanoship get up to it (well, yeah, multiple snipers, but they're very specific tools so a small gang is very unlikely to have them). You are correct that assumptions have to be made to generate an argument for or against the current ECM status quo. There are indeed valid points - a single sniper battleship will, in all probability not generate enough damage to instapop a falcon. Insted, you strip the shields and the falcon warps away, removing him from the fight for at least a duration of warp, realinment, warp and relocking targets. While this is certainly a success in the srictest terms can we call it useful? It depends on the situation at play - in a very close fight it's probably not going to make a difference but if the odds (numeric in terms of firepower etc) are in the favor of the side without a falcon, it may make all the difference in the world. One can look at the arugment regarding an additional falcon and rook in the same fashion. Both ships are well insulated against ECM, with better sensor strength than your average battleship. Both types of ships carry equal jammers and equal jamming capability in an "all else being equal" sort of situation (it's a sphere in a vacuum). Though this scenario plays out all the time, people never really seem to understand exactly what happens when two ECM ships start tangling. By and large, in the initial moments that an ECM ship is revealed it goes unnoticed. Poeple are too busy barking orders, locking targets, cycling weapons and doing all that other stuff that people gas on about as the player skill component in this game. The first side to reveal they have a falcon is as such at a disadvantage - their hand has been played, the ace up the sleeve is on the table and at this point people have to play with the pieces they have to jam it. For the sake of this arugment, the opposing ECM ship will then decloak and, first and foremost lock the opposing ECM ship and start pouring on the Caldari racial jammers. Your average Caldari recon carries exactly TWO caldari racials, specifically for this circumstance, giving a fair chance to jam a non ECCM'd (it's not usual to carry ECCM on an ECM ship) for quite some time. Unfortunately, it ALSO uses up the racial jammers of the race most suited to engaging the ECM ship with counter fire. Ravens can handily deliver the damage to force your ship from the field in short order, as can a cerberus, an eagle or a Rokh. Your counter ECM pilot is, as such at a tremendous disadvantage. If there is a single caldari ship on the opposing side fitted for ranged combat they have absolutely nothing to throw at them, other than the wrong flavor of racial, and it is at this moment that we find the true weakness of countering ECM with more ECM. Once your hand has been played and you reaveal your counter falcon, the entire opposing gang knows exactly who to shoot and that falcon only has four jammers left to defend itself with. A single cloaked bomber, a single caldari ship fitted to engage targets in the 150 - 220km range, hell, even a single sniper battleship of any sort will remove your counter in short order. The key to countering a falcon isn't to use a gimmick, it isn't to rely on ECCM, and it most certainly isn't to rely on other falcons do the job for you. Countering ECM requires a full spectrum approach to fleet composition. In ideal situations, your gang will be a proper composition of support, anti support and good old fashioned gank and spank.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.27 06:59:00 - [82] On a larger scale, when we look at the falcon and it's role on the Eve battlefields I have to wonder just how many people understand what it's there for. A falcon's job isn't to annoy you, rather it's primary purpose is to remove outgoing DPS from your gang. As a secondary purpose it also degenerates tanking abilities, given that most active tanking these days is done with remote repairing. Eve has been and will always be a numbers game. You can argue against this to an extent because player skill is a combat multiplier but in the end one can generate a scenerio where you have a sufficient quantity of a product to claim superiority of some kind. In Eve, you have three essential types of superiority to claim, in rough order of their priority and importance to the modern game. Firepower Superiority - Your gang is putting more hurt and disconent downrage than the other gang. Electonic Superiority - Your gang is generating more effective electronic warfare than the opposing gang Defense Superiority - Your gang sports greater durability, either in the form of more EHP or a greater ability to absorb damage. But why are they listed in this fashion? Simply put, firepower is the trump card in Eve and there is no PVP task that can be completed unless you have adequate firepower. Pure firepower in suficient quantity can overcome any obstacle in Eve. As the saying goes "If brute force doesn't work you aren't using enough". Electronic Superiority is second becase EWAR alone will not win a battle - at best it can generate a stalemate. What it accomplishes is a multiplicative effect to either firepower or defense. Given you have to assume any analysis of balance is done in an all things being equal mindset you'll find that 1 EWAR ship of any variety matched by it's equal on the opposite gang does not generate superority, it generates parity. Defensive Superiority comes in dead last. Just like EWAR won't win a war, staying alive won't either. From a strict military standpoint you should view defense as a means for setting the conditions for a renewed offense. Sufficient defense can provide you with the ability to use inferior firepower to win the day afterall, but Eve has proven that there is no target that can't be taken down with enough bullets. When assembling a fleet of any size there are basic considerations one has to make. Someone has to tackle the targets, or else you rely on pure alpha strike to kill them before they can warp (and this only happens in true fleet battles). You have to have sufficient firepower at your disposal to take down your intended targets. These two factors are the basics and few gangs leave station without at least considering these two key factors. But most are unwilling to compromise the tackle/spank numbers to bring in niche ships to round out the roster. In order to combat this notion of degraded utility, I need only present a scenario. Two 10 man gangs leave station with the intention of causing a ruckus in the other's space. One consists of a pure gank/tackle perspective. The other has a mix of 7 Gank/Tank ships, 1 anti support ship and 2 ECM support ships. All else being equal who will win? Probably the gang that balanced their support and anti-support in with the need for firepower. By properly using their support the mixed gang will in effect achieve firepower superiority - with each ECM ship removing a certain percentage of the hostile gang's firepower at any given time. As you can see, the problem with the spank ideology here is single ships can easily neutralize your firepower advantage if you let them. Combat multiplers in Eve are powerful tools but you need to understand their purpose to understand both why and how you should fight them.
Damned Force Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.27 07:06:00 - [83] Originally by: Kulmid ECCM is no where near broken in its current state, just for some reason no one uses it. Yes, because is much easier to whine about how overpowered ecm are than offer a midslot or max 2 for eccm
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.27 07:09:00 - [84] Originally by: Damned Force Originally by: Kulmid ECCM is no where near broken in its current state, just for some reason no one uses it. Yes, because is much easier to whine about how overpowered ecm are than offer a midslot or max 2 for eccm It never seems to occur to people that ECCM is best used on ships who plan on killing Falcons, instead they seem to want the module to make them immune to the falcons' effects so they can continue locking targets and mashing gun module activation buttions. I'm willing to grant ECCM can stand to be more effective but the statements saying it doesn't work are just ouright lies. What such people MEAN to say I assume is it doesn't work well enough to serve the purpose they want (i.e. ewar immunity for example)
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.08.27 07:34:00 - [85] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 27/08/2008 07:34:12 Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Damned Force Originally by: Kulmid ECCM is no where near broken in its current state, just for some reason no one uses it. Yes, because is much easier to whine about how overpowered ecm are than offer a midslot or max 2 for eccm It never seems to occur to people that ECCM is best used on ships who plan on killing Falcons, instead they seem to want the module to make them immune to the falcons' effects so they can continue locking targets and mashing gun module activation buttions. I'm willing to grant ECCM can stand to be more effective but the statements saying it doesn't work are just ouright lies. What such people MEAN to say I assume is it doesn't work well enough to serve the purpose they want (i.e. ewar immunity for example) being jammed by a single falcon for a minute while using 3 ECCMs is the opposite of immunity I think and ECCMs are even more useless on sub bs class ships.
Damned Force Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.27 07:50:00 - [86] Damn a Lachesis is able to damp my fully sensorboosted carriers lockrange to 50km and so make me sitting while killed.... A single Lachesis... 100% of the time..... Damn thats overpowered. a falcon cant do this...... nerf the lachesis????? NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Burn Mac Minmatar Burning Steel Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.27 09:03:00 - [87] A thing that havent been mentioned is that even if you do find a way to counter the damn falcon (dedicated sniper, falcon of your own etc.) you still have to wait 20 seconds before you can lock, jams shouldnt be cycle based it should be some sort of constant struggle between the Signal strength and jam strength and when the jam strength is neutralized it should be playtime immediately for the other one. Nerf Jam cycle length!
Damned Force Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.27 09:11:00 - [88] Originally by: Burn Mac .... Nerf Jam cycle length! God, why peoples dont think before writing.... If u have less cycle time, that means that u have even less time to lock the falcon before a new cycle comes and jam u again. Now is the cycle time 20... he miss a cycle u have 20 sec to lock and counteract before he have a chance again to jam u. Assume he would have 10 sec cycle time. he miss, before u lock again u already jammed again. so if he had u jammed just every 2nd cycle it would ment as he had 100% succes by the 20sec one(sure if u have less locking time than 10 sec and reaction time, than ok )
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.08.27 11:29:00 - [89] Originally by: Damned Force Damn a Lachesis is able to damp my fully sensorboosted carriers lockrange to 50km and so make me sitting while killed.... A single Lachesis... 100% of the time..... Damn thats overpowered. a falcon cant do this...... nerf the lachesis????? NO!!!!!!!!!!! if you use a carrier and dont bring in a fleet to defend you from superior forces, thats your problem. u still can lock and u still can use drones. well, if a falcon comes in @150+ km, you can do nothing, except for hoping your fighters or drones wont do something stupid. and a falcon can jam much more targets, while the gallente recon can only effectively hinder only one target @much shorter range, that still can lock and shot if it gets close enough to someone. go back to your cave fail troll
The Tzar Malicious Intentions Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.27 11:49:00 - [90] How the b'jeeezus are people saying that ECCM is weak? It is the most effective form of anti-ewar available. Show me another form of anti-ewar that doubles the receivers chance of defense? Tracking computers are what like 20% or something? Target Painters can mitigated with expensive implants, no module that I know of... Warp Scram/'ruptors I guess have a counter but who in there right mind would use them considering the extreme costs to lock range and time? Nos/Neut have cap boosters, this is no counter however as the effect still occurs. Webs reduce the speed of said victim to 10% so have a x10 effect on speed, MWD only counter this effect by x6 but you'll get shot to hell with increase sig radius. ECCM are fine, falcons are fine stop patrolling round in gangs of only 5 BS would be my suggestion and bring some anti falcon ships like...., hmmm let me think; zealot, vaga, ishtar, crow, malediction, taranis, arazu, curse, pilgrim, raven, nanophoon etc... __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________

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