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Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.23 00:08:00 - [31] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lorz0r ECCM isn't good enough. Needs to be twice the strength. To quote your corp: You're Doing It Wrong. :) -Liang I waste a midslot on ECCM and still get permajammed by a ship that I'm directly trying to counter. I overload it and still get permajammed. why bother
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.23 00:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Lorz0r I waste a midslot on ECCM and still get permajammed by a ship that I'm directly trying to counter. I overload it and still get permajammed. why bother Ok, so you're either lying or you get wtfbbq'd by much larger forces. A max skilled Falcon has a 75% chance of jamming a Tempest without an ECCM. A single ECCM drops it to a 37.9% chance. The only way that I'd believe the Tempest got "permajammed" is if it died in the first 20 seconds. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.23 00:28:00 - [33] Edited by: Lorz0r on 23/08/2008 00:36:52 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lorz0r I waste a midslot on ECCM and still get permajammed by a ship that I'm directly trying to counter. I overload it and still get permajammed. why bother Ok, so you're either lying or you get wtfbbq'd by much larger forces. A max skilled Falcon has a 75% chance of jamming a Tempest without an ECCM. A single ECCM drops it to a 37.9% chance. The only way that I'd believe the Tempest got "permajammed" is if it died in the first 20 seconds. -Liang 37.9% chance per module. 2 racial mods and we're almost back up to permajam territory. EDIT: so my ECCM mod has changed it so instead of being permajammed I can lock for 20 then get jammed for a minute then lock for 20 seconds again. Half that time is spent locking targets up anyway, so yeah it's pointless.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.23 00:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Lorz0r 37.9% chance per module. 2 racial mods and we're almost back up to permajam territory. EDIT: so my ECCM mod has changed it so instead of being permajammed I can lock for 20 then get jammed for a minute then lock for 20 seconds again. Half that time is spent locking targets up anyway, so yeah it's pointless. Falcons don't carry 5 racial jammers of one type, you know. You're just making up situations... and at that rate it's fairly easy to say that the gang layout is: - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon instapops - 5 Battleships obliterate 4 battleships. U WIN, LOL. ECCM is very powerful, but don't expect it to completely remove the chance to be jammed. No other ewar counter does this, so don't expect it here either. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.23 00:46:00 - [35] Edited by: Lorz0r on 23/08/2008 00:52:33 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lorz0r 37.9% chance per module. 2 racial mods and we're almost back up to permajam territory. EDIT: so my ECCM mod has changed it so instead of being permajammed I can lock for 20 then get jammed for a minute then lock for 20 seconds again. Half that time is spent locking targets up anyway, so yeah it's pointless. Falcons don't carry 5 racial jammers of one type, you know. You're just making up situations... and at that rate it's fairly easy to say that the gang layout is: - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon instapops - 5 Battleships obliterate 4 battleships. U WIN, LOL. ECCM is very powerful, but don't expect it to completely remove the chance to be jammed. No other ewar counter does this, so don't expect it here either. -Liang Yeah, you're right they don't. They definately do tend to fit 2 of the same type of racial jammer though, that's completely realistic. Our falcon alt certainly does. - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon is 180km away so it still proceeds to permajam 2-3 battleships even with ECCM (I have NEVER seen a falcon within 60km of my BS) - 5 Battleships die in yet another boring as shit pvp matchup due to ECM being involved fix'd EDIT: Also, other EWAR counters actually have other uses. The ECCM module is used ONLY to counter ECM and it's shit at doing only that.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.23 00:52:00 - [36] Originally by: Kulmid ECCM is no where near broken in its current state, just for some reason no one uses it. Well, I use it, it's just weak though. Particularly weak on any sub-BS ships. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.23 01:01:00 - [37] Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Liang Nuren Falcons don't carry 5 racial jammers of one type, you know. You're just making up situations... and at that rate it's fairly easy to say that the gang layout is: - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon instapops - 5 Battleships obliterate 4 battleships. U WIN, LOL. ECCM is very powerful, but don't expect it to completely remove the chance to be jammed. No other ewar counter does this, so don't expect it here either. -Liang Yeah, you're right they don't. They definately do tend to fit 2 of the same type of racial jammer though, that's completely realistic. Our falcon alt certainly does. - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon is 180km away so it still proceeds to permajam 2-3 battleships even with ECCM (I have NEVER seen a falcon within 60km of my BS) - 5 Battleships die in yet another boring as shit pvp matchup due to ECM being involved fix'd Even in the 'one is a fully ECCM-ed sniper battleship' situation: 1 falcon, 4 battleships 1 ECCM sniper BS, 4 battleships Falcons jam 3-4 BS for 20s. ECCM sniper BS fires on falcon, falcon warps away (we've had that particular situation plenty of times). So, there's now 4 battleships (assuming falcon is too scared) fighting 4 battleship plus a sniper BS (which only really contributes drone DPS), with anything from 30K to 50K effective DPS head start, so there's no clear cut winner, and the odds aren't on the 4 BS + sniper BS side either. If the 4 BS pop the sniper who'll have shit eff HP anyway, falcon returns and they have a easy victory. On the other hand, with the 4 BS + sniper BS gang fighting 5 BS, they just die horribly. Why do I mention this? Did I also mention falcons have a covops cloak? Well, Falcons have a covops cloak. That means you don't know they're there previously (well, I generally do because we set negative standings to all falcon pilots to make them show up in local, so at least nobody is screwing you over twice). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.23 01:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Lorz0r Yeah, you're right they don't. They definately do tend to fit 2 of the same type of racial jammer though, that's completely realistic. Our falcon alt certainly does. Falcons don't have the slots to fit 2x of each racial jammer, and especially not including a sensor booster and MWD. A Falcon pilot has maybe a 50% chance of jamming you if you have an ECCM fit. Additionally, you become an "ECM Sponge" which lowers ECM availability for the next guy. Quote: - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon is 180km away so it still proceeds to permajam 2-3 battleships even with ECCM (I have NEVER seen a falcon within 60km of my BS) - 5 Battleships die in yet another boring as shit pvp matchup due to ECM being involved fix'd For your argument to work, the Falcon pilot has to know your exact gang composition. Since he obviously knew everything about your ships (including which of you were fitting ECCM's to know which extra jammers to pack), you obviously know everything about them. Well, that or you're just willingly going into combat woefully unprepared. I mean, you're going into a fight where you know that they're going to have ranged combatants and you don't field any.... You can't really be surprised you lost? -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.23 01:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lorz0r Yeah, you're right they don't. They definately do tend to fit 2 of the same type of racial jammer though, that's completely realistic. Our falcon alt certainly does. Falcons don't have the slots to fit 2x of each racial jammer, and especially not including a sensor booster and MWD. A Falcon pilot has maybe a 50% chance of jamming you if you have an ECCM fit. Additionally, you become an "ECM Sponge" which lowers ECM availability for the next guy. Quote: - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon is 180km away so it still proceeds to permajam 2-3 battleships even with ECCM (I have NEVER seen a falcon within 60km of my BS) - 5 Battleships die in yet another boring as shit pvp matchup due to ECM being involved fix'd For your argument to work, the Falcon pilot has to know your exact gang composition. Since he obviously knew everything about your ships (including which of you were fitting ECCM's to know which extra jammers to pack), you obviously know everything about them. Well, that or you're just willingly going into combat woefully unprepared. I mean, you're going into a fight where you know that they're going to have ranged combatants and you don't field any.... You can't really be surprised you lost? -Liang An MWD? no we don't fit them. We fit 2 caldari jammers, 2 minmatar and 1 amarr and 1 gallente jammer normally, obviously that does change alot. He doesn't need to know shit about the gang. He sits 180km away and jams the ECCM'd ships with whatever hes got fitted and jams the non-ECCM'd ships slightly more. You're right I don't give a flying shit about other ranged combatants as they are nothing more than a minor annoyance most of the time, the Falcon isn't though.
diabolic clone Amarr Anomaly Collective	Posted - 2008.08.23 02:26:00 - [40] Might sound hypocritical coming from me but they can't simply boost how ECCM works because, while its primary function is to help against ECM's it has a secondary effect of making you harder to be scanned down by probes. Would effect the entire probing mechanics.

Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Lorz0r An MWD? no we don't fit them. We fit 2 caldari jammers, 2 minmatar and 1 amarr and 1 gallente jammer normally, obviously that does change alot. He doesn't need to know shit about the gang. He sits 180km away and jams the ECCM'd ships with whatever hes got fitted and jams the non-ECCM'd ships slightly more. You're right I don't give a flying shit about other ranged combatants as they are nothing more than a minor annoyance most of the time, the Falcon isn't though. You're entirely right. You CAN just not fit a MWD AND carry 6 jammers AND jam at 180km. But if you're going to dump that MWD and fit a sensor booster (because without one you don't jam at 180km given your max long range is 150km), you might as well throw on some jammer range rigs and sit even further way. To your last comment, I just have to say not giving a "flying shit" about ranged combatants is a rather odd state of affairs. Afterall, those ranged combatants sling pain, falcons just sling annoyance and frustration.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:04:00 - [42] Hmph These arguments are all about "ecm is op" "no it is not" "face my theory craft" All in all the "you are now removed from the battle for 20sec" effect is what is bringing up these whines, chould there possibly be some other way for ecm to function? Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:12:00 - [43] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lorz0r I waste a midslot on ECCM and still get permajammed by a ship that I'm directly trying to counter. I overload it and still get permajammed. why bother Ok, so you're either lying or you get wtfbbq'd by much larger forces. A max skilled Falcon has a 75% chance of jamming a Tempest without an ECCM. A single ECCM drops it to a 37.9% chance. The only way that I'd believe the Tempest got "permajammed" is if it died in the first 20 seconds. -Liang "permajammed" = forum-speak for "more than 1 cycle of jamming acheived". CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:12:00 - [44] Originally by: Dristra Hmph These arguments are all about "ecm is op" "no it is not" "face my theory craft" All in all the "you are now removed from the battle for 20sec" effect is what is bringing up these whines, chould there possibly be some other way for ecm to function? Such as? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:13:00 - [45] Originally by: Malcanis "permajammed" = forum-speak for "more than 1 cycle of jamming acheived". Anything over 60-ish% effectively disables a battleship (relock time, for the win), easily achieved by throwing two jammers on a ECCM-ed ship. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Liang Nuren Falcons don't carry 5 racial jammers of one type, you know. You're just making up situations... and at that rate it's fairly easy to say that the gang layout is: - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon instapops - 5 Battleships obliterate 4 battleships. U WIN, LOL. ECCM is very powerful, but don't expect it to completely remove the chance to be jammed. No other ewar counter does this, so don't expect it here either. -Liang Yeah, you're right they don't. They definately do tend to fit 2 of the same type of racial jammer though, that's completely realistic. Our falcon alt certainly does. - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon is 180km away so it still proceeds to permajam 2-3 battleships even with ECCM (I have NEVER seen a falcon within 60km of my BS) - 5 Battleships die in yet another boring as shit pvp matchup due to ECM being involved fix'd Even in the 'one is a fully ECCM-ed sniper battleship' situation: 1 falcon, 4 battleships 1 ECCM sniper BS, 4 battleships Falcons jam 3-4 BS for 20s. ECCM sniper BS fires on falcon, falcon warps away (we've had that particular situation plenty of times). So, there's now 4 battleships (assuming falcon is too scared) fighting 4 battleship plus a sniper BS (which only really contributes drone DPS), with anything from 30K to 50K effective DPS head start, so there's no clear cut winner, and the odds aren't on the 4 BS + sniper BS side either. If the 4 BS pop the sniper who'll have shit eff HP anyway, falcon returns and they have a easy victory. On the other hand, with the 4 BS + sniper BS gang fighting 5 BS, they just die horribly. Why do I mention this? Did I also mention falcons have a covops cloak? Well, Falcons have a covops cloak. That means you don't know they're there previously (well, I generally do because we set negative standings to all falcon pilots to make them show up in local, so at least nobody is screwing you over twice). 3-4 BS! I count 2 BS jammed as a good result. 3 is bloody good. 4 is great. Not infrequently I jam no BS. Oh and a Falcon without a MWD is of limited use unless he already has bookmarks set up. (No bookmarks = 100Km range, which he can improve at a whopping 212m/s) In which case you're complaining about losing to a gang that has prepared for a battle and has defender's advantage. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:38:00 - [47] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/08/2008 15:39:15 Originally by: Malcanis Oh and a Falcon without a MWD is of limited use unless he already has bookmarks set up. (No bookmarks = 100Km range, which he can improve at a whopping 212m/s) In which case you're complaining about losing to a gang that has prepared for a battle and has defender's advantage. Well, if you have a ceptor or something in gang which can warp to 50km, you can warp to 100km off it and get to 150km range, etc. Useful in a hurry. Naturally bookmarks are better if you have them - and if you roam through an area often, it's easy to have them. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:55:00 - [48] Getting 200km bookmark, all it takes is warp to gate at 100 cloaked, bookmark, warp back to station/planet/whatever and come to bookmark at 100km. There is no need to crawl at range.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.24 16:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Ambien Torca Getting 200km bookmark, all it takes is warp to gate at 100 cloaked, bookmark, warp back to station/planet/whatever and come to bookmark at 100km. There is no need to crawl at range. All of which takes a lot of time. 6 warps per bookmark, in a very slow, clumsy ship - and most of the time they won't be widely seperated so you wont be able warp from 1 to the other. And they'll be in highly predictable locations. I used to forgo a MWD in favour of an extra jammer, but after several embarrassing losses, I accept the requirement. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.24 22:39:00 - [50] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Lorz0r An MWD? no we don't fit them. We fit 2 caldari jammers, 2 minmatar and 1 amarr and 1 gallente jammer normally, obviously that does change alot. He doesn't need to know shit about the gang. He sits 180km away and jams the ECCM'd ships with whatever hes got fitted and jams the non-ECCM'd ships slightly more. You're right I don't give a flying shit about other ranged combatants as they are nothing more than a minor annoyance most of the time, the Falcon isn't though. You're entirely right. You CAN just not fit a MWD AND carry 6 jammers AND jam at 180km. But if you're going to dump that MWD and fit a sensor booster (because without one you don't jam at 180km given your max long range is 150km), you might as well throw on some jammer range rigs and sit even further way. To your last comment, I just have to say not giving a "flying shit" about ranged combatants is a rather odd state of affairs. Afterall, those ranged combatants sling pain, falcons just sling annoyance and frustration. I'd much rather have a Rokh doing 400 DPS at 180km than a Falcon jamming me constantly. Jammed more than once and thats you jammed for 40 seconds minimum. Most of our fights wont last over more than 2 minutes. With relock times I might as well not have turned up. Something like doubling the strength of ECCM or allowing only 1 ECM module active per ship would at least help the problem.

Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.24 22:42:00 - [51] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Liang Nuren Falcons don't carry 5 racial jammers of one type, you know. You're just making up situations... and at that rate it's fairly easy to say that the gang layout is: - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon instapops - 5 Battleships obliterate 4 battleships. U WIN, LOL. ECCM is very powerful, but don't expect it to completely remove the chance to be jammed. No other ewar counter does this, so don't expect it here either. -Liang Yeah, you're right they don't. They definately do tend to fit 2 of the same type of racial jammer though, that's completely realistic. Our falcon alt certainly does. - 4 Battleships, 1 falcon - 5 Battleships (2x with ECCM) - Falcon is 180km away so it still proceeds to permajam 2-3 battleships even with ECCM (I have NEVER seen a falcon within 60km of my BS) - 5 Battleships die in yet another boring as shit pvp matchup due to ECM being involved fix'd Even in the 'one is a fully ECCM-ed sniper battleship' situation: 1 falcon, 4 battleships 1 ECCM sniper BS, 4 battleships Falcons jam 3-4 BS for 20s. ECCM sniper BS fires on falcon, falcon warps away (we've had that particular situation plenty of times). So, there's now 4 battleships (assuming falcon is too scared) fighting 4 battleship plus a sniper BS (which only really contributes drone DPS), with anything from 30K to 50K effective DPS head start, so there's no clear cut winner, and the odds aren't on the 4 BS + sniper BS side either. If the 4 BS pop the sniper who'll have shit eff HP anyway, falcon returns and they have a easy victory. On the other hand, with the 4 BS + sniper BS gang fighting 5 BS, they just die horribly. Why do I mention this? Did I also mention falcons have a covops cloak? Well, Falcons have a covops cloak. That means you don't know they're there previously (well, I generally do because we set negative standings to all falcon pilots to make them show up in local, so at least nobody is screwing you over twice). 3-4 BS! I count 2 BS jammed as a good result. 3 is bloody good. 4 is great. Not infrequently I jam no BS. Oh and a Falcon without a MWD is of limited use unless he already has bookmarks set up. (No bookmarks = 100Km range, which he can improve at a whopping 212m/s) In which case you're complaining about losing to a gang that has prepared for a battle and has defender's advantage. Then your falcon fails. We consistantly jam 3 Battleships, hell we even jammed an ECCM Archon with only 2 attempts and only 2 racial jammers. Infact the other day a corp member was in trouble at a gate so we warped the falcon to a SS 180km off the gate and jammed 2 Battleships, 1 Curse and a Harbinger to allow him to warp off. How is that not overpowered?
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.08.24 22:48:00 - [52] Edited by: OffBeaT on 24/08/2008 22:49:12 Originally by: Lorz0r ECCM isn't good enough. Needs to be twice the strength. yes, eccm should be better.. i say beef them up some. it take too long too max these skills so lets not be so hasty at nerfing them.. we might regret it in the long run. tankers can't have all the fun in combat.
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.08.24 22:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Ralara Edited by: Ralara on 22/08/2008 19:23:26 ECM is 20 seconds... You do realise that for the Caldari ECM boats, the ECM IS their tank as well as offensive "weapon", right? Amarr, Gallente and Minmitar can both tank and use their EW at the same time (although sure, as recons and EAFs, the tank is minimal) - Caldari can't really do that. On top of that, each EW boat the Caldari have, has almost next to no DPS. You think the others have crappy damage? Caldari ones are worse. At least you can solo in all the others - Curse, Rapier, Arazu (just). Falcon? Unless you're fighting industrials, you just cannot effectively solo. And who'd want to ECM an industrial?
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.08.24 22:59:00 - [54] how about in addition to some eccm changes, making projected eccm a high slot module instead of a mid? - FRIGANK
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.25 00:51:00 - [55] Falcons are overpowered only because nobody cares to bring the counter. Even a stupid Celestis can permajam a Falcon at 180km, a Lachesis can perma 2. And that's without Information warfare. What game are you guys playing?
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:08:00 - [56] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lorz0r I waste a midslot on ECCM and still get permajammed by a ship that I'm directly trying to counter. I overload it and still get permajammed. why bother Ok, so you're either lying or you get wtfbbq'd by much larger forces. A max skilled Falcon has a 75% chance of jamming a Tempest without an ECCM. A single ECCM drops it to a 37.9% chance. The only way that I'd believe the Tempest got "permajammed" is if it died in the first 20 seconds. -Liang You need to watch cowns last movie, he whines about his pest with 3 ECCMs (a strength of 125 i think) being permajammed by a falcon. ECCM in its actual way is absolutely pointless.
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:18:00 - [57] The way I see it, 2 ECCM's should make any ship just about invulnerable to ECM. using 2 midslots just on the offchance someone is gonna be using ECM is a fair tradeoff if you ask me.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:27:00 - [58] Originally by: Ralara Edited by: Ralara on 22/08/2008 19:23:26 ECM is 20 seconds... You do realise that for the Caldari ECM boats, the ECM IS their tank as well as offensive "weapon", right? Amarr, Gallente and Minmitar can both tank and use their EW at the same time (although sure, as recons and EAFs, the tank is minimal) - Caldari can't really do that. On top of that, each EW boat the Caldari have, has almost next to no DPS. You think the others have crappy damage? Caldari ones are worse. At least you can solo in all the others - Curse, Rapier, Arazu (just). Falcon? Unless you're fighting industrials, you just cannot effectively solo. And who'd want to ECM an industrial? ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Seishomaru	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:30:00 - [59] Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Lorz0r An MWD? no we don't fit them. We fit 2 caldari jammers, 2 minmatar and 1 amarr and 1 gallente jammer normally, obviously that does change alot. He doesn't need to know shit about the gang. He sits 180km away and jams the ECCM'd ships with whatever hes got fitted and jams the non-ECCM'd ships slightly more. You're right I don't give a flying shit about other ranged combatants as they are nothing more than a minor annoyance most of the time, the Falcon isn't though. You're entirely right. You CAN just not fit a MWD AND carry 6 jammers AND jam at 180km. But if you're going to dump that MWD and fit a sensor booster (because without one you don't jam at 180km given your max long range is 150km), you might as well throw on some jammer range rigs and sit even further way. To your last comment, I just have to say not giving a "flying shit" about ranged combatants is a rather odd state of affairs. Afterall, those ranged combatants sling pain, falcons just sling annoyance and frustration. I'd much rather have a Rokh doing 400 DPS at 180km than a Falcon jamming me constantly. Jammed more than once and thats you jammed for 40 seconds minimum. Most of our fights wont last over more than 2 minutes. With relock times I might as well not have turned up. Something like doubling the strength of ECCM or allowing only 1 ECM module active per ship would at least help the problem. WTB rokh taht can deal 400 dps at 180 km..... (hint only BS taht can do that is APOC). That simply proves you have no cvlue and rest of your statement can be discarded as equaly wrong. Try again next year.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:39:00 - [60] Originally by: Lorz0r The way I see it, 2 ECCM's should make any ship just about invulnerable to ECM. using 2 midslots just on the offchance someone is gonna be using ECM is a fair tradeoff if you ask me. By that logic my four slot PVP raven tank ought to make me invincible to guns. Let's face it - unless you fundamentally change the way sensors and ECM works, ECCM is not going to accmoplish anything but decrease your odds of being jammed. It doesn't matter if ECCM handed out 200% bonuses - you'll STILL get jammed from time to time. Personally, while I think there are LOTS of solutions to the issue working within the current game structure (I.E. ECCM is a SB script rather than a seperate slot item), better solutions to the problem can be reformulated. As an example - if ECCM increases sensor strength in an attempt to "overpower" the ECM signal, what's to say one couldn't have a backup sensor array that actually acted like a backup? The array would in essence provide a baseline set of stats for function when primary sensors are jammed, offset by a "recalibration" time (I.E. it takes 5 seconds to swap sensors as an example) or perhaps by inferior sensor stats (such as very low scan res/lock range). In effect, the SB scripted ECCM module would insulate you against ECM while providing other tangible benefits in an ECM free environmen, while the backup array would in effect mitigate the effects of a single jammer. One could as such build a fully ECM proof ship, but such a fitting would essentially be custom built for the express purpose of killing ECM ships, and would end up suitably flimnsy and undergunned as a result (like the ship it's trying to counter of course).

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