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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:31:00 -
[1]
Just asking as the issues of "balance" and such, equality, have come to play in dicussions lately.
What is an effective countermeasure to bumping?
Say a battleship tying to warp out or some such, getting bumped by a shuttle. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:31:00 -
[2]
Just asking as the issues of "balance" and such, equality, have come to play in dicussions lately.
What is an effective countermeasure to bumping?
Say a battleship tying to warp out or some such, getting bumped by a shuttle. |
Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:33:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 21/08/2008 13:33:43 Apart from incorporating decent physics into EVE... No.
Destroy the bumper I guess.
Never really understood why a battleship weighing tens of thousands of ton's can be bumped around by a few hundred tons of shuttle.
Another thing that contributes to why all EVE ships have no sense of scale. |
Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:33:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 21/08/2008 13:33:43 Apart from incorporating decent physics into EVE... No.
Destroy the bumper I guess.
Never really understood why a battleship weighing tens of thousands of ton's can be bumped around by a few hundred tons of shuttle.
Another thing that contributes to why all EVE ships have no sense of scale. |
VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:40:00 -
[5]
of course, use your brain.
Stay aligned and warp out before anyone has the chance to bump. Watch scanner and get away before anyone has a chance to bump. Cloak and stay cloaked before anyone has a chance to bump etc... Use a scout to see if someone is there to bump you off station. Once someone is already on your overview, all bets are off regardless of what you hope to counter. |
Wil Smithx
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:41:00 -
[6]
An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:42:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 21/08/2008 13:45:14 So short answer is no, hmm, smelling a bit of a flaw there in all the "it's a legitimate tactic".
Logically, game-play sense and other.
Never really thought about it before.
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Once someone is already on your overview, all bets are off regardless of what you hope to counter.
All fine and dandy if it wasn't the counter for "getting into battle".
But when you're in abttle and the advesary resorts to such manners(for whatever reason), it becomes an issue. |
Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Wil Smithx An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
IMO, something travelling that fast hitting something that big should fold in half on impact. Not just bounce off. Slow collisions okay, but 6km/s, jeez. |
Major PewPew
The Dark Horses
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:47:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Major PewPew on 21/08/2008 13:49:09
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Just asking as the issues of "balance" and such, equality, have come to play in dicussions lately.
What is an effective countermeasure to bumping?
Say a battleship tying to warp out or some such, getting bumped by a shuttle.
Ironic...but im gunna say nano. Keep moving and you wont get bumped. Move fast enough, and nothing can bump you.
And Jones, i agree with you. In a game where they're looking for balance in every aspect of the game, everyone says "theres a counter for everything, thats your balance"...wheres the balance/counter to bumping? Webs? I cant rly say that's sufficient enough. |
VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
All fine and dandy if it wasn't the counter for "getting into battle".
You are "getting into battle," as soon as you log into the game. |
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:50:00 -
[11]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 21/08/2008 13:50:32
Originally by: Wil Smithx An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
In theory E=mv^2 so bumping into something 1000 times heavier(assuming you're not going *SPLAT* on its windshield and transferring 100% energy) would make it move at 1/30 of your speed. IRL going *SPLAT*(with some damage to windshield ) is more likely then making it move at all. |
Glach Duwat
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:51:00 -
[12]
Move?
Bumping anything smaller than a battle cruiser is somewhat tough.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 13:52:48 Guns? Webs? Neuts?
The only issue is that in high-sec bumping doesn't cause aggro, but you can't really fix that.
Well, you can. Remove concord |
Gojyu
Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:03:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Originally by: Wil Smithx An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
IMO, something travelling that fast hitting something that big should fold in half on impact. Not just bounce off. Slow collisions okay, but 6km/s, jeez.
Do you have any idea the damage a projectile weighing 1000 tons moving at 6km a sec would actually do to any ship in the eve universe? It would outright cripple most ships, rip your average industrial (given their lack of armour to make room for cargo) in half, and most likely severely tear up even a capital. There's none of this "going splat on a windshield like a fly" if said fly weighs the same as two jumbo jets and is moving 18 times the speed of sound. Also note I can get a vaga up to 6km/sec, and that puppy weighs 10,000 tons |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:14:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 14:15:13
Originally by: Gojyu
Do you have any idea the damage a projectile weighing 1000 tons moving at 6km a sec would actually do to any ship in the eve universe? It would outright cripple most ships, rip your average industrial (given their lack of armour to make room for cargo) in half, and most likely severely tear up even a capital. There's none of this "going splat on a windshield like a fly" if said fly weighs the same as two jumbo jets and is moving 18 times the speed of sound. Also note I can get a vaga up to 6km/sec, and that puppy weighs 10,000 tons
Basically, this.
People forget (or don't know) how to calculate kinetic energy.
A 10km/s interceptor has about 50-100 TJ of kinetic energy, or the rough equalivent of the energy released in a small (say, Hiroshima) nuclear warhead, and overheated interceptors easily reach that.
It is a projectile which would, generally, produce a huge hole in your ship, either crippling or just killing it. If we consider that the average battleship has the equivalent armour of 2 x 1600mm steel plates, well, we're talking about punching a hole in one side and utterly destroying everything on the way, and then probably leaving a nice exit hole too
Think of your bumping interceptor as a large caliber, very heavy and insanely fast AP round. That'd be fairly realistic.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto of course, use your brain.
Stay aligned and warp out before anyone has the chance to bump. Watch scanner and get away before anyone has a chance to bump. Cloak and stay cloaked before anyone has a chance to bump etc... Use a scout to see if someone is there to bump you off station. Once someone is already on your overview, all bets are off regardless of what you hope to counter.
You are obviously an idiot! |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 14:15:13
Originally by: Gojyu
Do you have any idea the damage a projectile weighing 1000 tons moving at 6km a sec would actually do to any ship in the eve universe? It would outright cripple most ships, rip your average industrial (given their lack of armour to make room for cargo) in half, and most likely severely tear up even a capital. There's none of this "going splat on a windshield like a fly" if said fly weighs the same as two jumbo jets and is moving 18 times the speed of sound. Also note I can get a vaga up to 6km/sec, and that puppy weighs 10,000 tons
Basically, this.
People forget (or don't know) how to calculate kinetic energy.
A 10km/s interceptor has about 50-100 TJ of kinetic energy, or the rough equalivent of the energy released in a small (say, Hiroshima) nuclear warhead, and overheated interceptors easily reach that.
It is a projectile which would, generally, produce a huge hole in your ship, either crippling or just killing it. If we consider that the average battleship has the equivalent armour of 2 x 1600mm steel plates, well, we're talking about punching a hole in one side and utterly destroying everything on the way, and then probably leaving a nice exit hole too
Think of your bumping interceptor as a large caliber, very heavy and insanely fast AP round. That'd be fairly realistic.
The bumping in EvE is obviously explained by the shields of each ship, however EvE is made in such a way that even when your shields down, ships still act the same as if they were on and impenetrable.....
And while a shuttle might do a whole in a Carrier, if you really take the scale to heart you'd see it will maybe destroy a small section of the ship, not the entire ship or somesuch.. in a case of smaller ships idk, the whole thing is just weird..
By the same loging make ships splat onto stations and actually be able to hit and get blown up when warping through planet, moving onto an asteroid, etc... |
Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar Assisted Suicide Mercenaries
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:30:00 -
[18]
Just add proper collision damage in the game. Then you'll find me parked in a fenrir outside jita 4-4 watching with delight as hundreds of people splat like flies on the side of my ship. |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:31:00 -
[19]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 21/08/2008 14:31:37
Originally by: Gojyu
Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Originally by: Wil Smithx An interceptor (1,050,000kg)going 6000m/s can make my carrier (1,057,500,000kg) go 60m/s
Seems about a factor of 10 too high, since no momentum is lost in heat transfer or plasic deformation.
IMO, something travelling that fast hitting something that big should fold in half on impact. Not just bounce off. Slow collisions okay, but 6km/s, jeez.
Do you have any idea the damage a projectile weighing 1000 tons moving at 6km a sec would actually do to any ship in the eve universe? It would outright cripple most ships, rip your average industrial (given their lack of armour to make room for cargo) in half, and most likely severely tear up even a capital. There's none of this "going splat on a windshield like a fly" if said fly weighs the same as two jumbo jets and is moving 18 times the speed of sound. Also note I can get a vaga up to 6km/sec, and that puppy weighs 10,000 tons
Not that much damage, I mean look at rails' ammo, large is 425mm? diameter and about 3 times the length, that's 0.7 m^3, taking plutonium it weights about 14 tons, hits at speeds over 250 km/s and still won't one-shot pretty much anything.
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Mordican
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:33:00 -
[20]
Just remember that, according to CCP, a Nyx does not bump, it takes out stations! |
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Roc Wieler
Freeform Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:42:00 -
[21]
The easiest counter to bumping is to not play station hugging games. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 14:45:14 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 14:43:53
Originally by: FlameGlow
Not that much damage, I mean look at rails' ammo, large is 425mm? diameter and about 3 times the length, that's 0.7 m^3, taking plutonium it weights about 14 tons, hits at speeds over 250 km/s and still won't one-shot pretty much anything.
Well, a projectile weighting 15 tons and going over 250km/s would most likely one-shot the life on earth (if not the planet itself). We're talking about 437.000.000 TJ, or something roughly the equivalent of a warhead with the explosive force of 1,046,650 megatons (constrast that to our biggest nuclear warheads which are really devastating at a mere 50 megatons).
Physics says that targeting the earth and hitting just F1 would obliterate all life on it, if not killing the planet itself. A full volley of 450mm rails would obliterate any planet.
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Helios III
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:48:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Helios III on 21/08/2008 14:49:52 Yes, there is a counter to bumping:
Do a Barrel Roll. |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:59:00 -
[24]
If you're not station hugging and aren't in empire you could try a smartbomb or 8. Always a fun surprise for anything smaller than a cruiser zooming in for a bump.
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Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar Assisted Suicide Mercenaries
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Posted - 2008.08.21 15:01:00 -
[25]
I used to go out with a girl who's nickname was Clair Bear. Uncanny! |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2008.08.21 15:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Major PewPew Ironic...but im gunna say nano.
Aye, indeed ironic, a bit sad too
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
All fine and dandy if it wasn't the counter for "getting into battle".
You are "getting into battle," as soon as you log into the game.
Bullcrap cop-out reason, overused and not needed. You know exactly what i meant.
Originally by: Glach Duwat Move?
Bumping anything smaller than a battle cruiser is somewhat tough.
Exactly, hensh the battleship trying to get away from battle. I mean, ofcourse, a battle where there are no WCS, stabs, whatnot, jiggyjoos.
Originally by: Roc Wieler The easiest counter to bumping is to not play station hugging games.
Never have, never will. If someone wants to fight me, i'll fight, or run away if i know i'll loose.
But i expect to get away according to basic game logics and rules. If you have a web and scram and jingyjoos on, ok, you got me. If you don't, are guntooting overburning maniac with only bumping as a use, not cool. |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.08.21 15:08:00 -
[27]
Remove the bumping mechanic and make it impossible to use a jump gate or dock if scrammed.
SKUNK
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 15:08:00 -
[28]
So, sheriff, how about making said interceptors pierce your sub-capital ship and kill it (together with killing and podding themselves in the process)?
That's rather reasonable
But anyway, someone bumping you can get webbed/neuted/shot at and there, you've countered it. If you don't want to agress people, naturally, you cannot counter them but oh well.
The minor issue with high-sec bumping can simply be solved with removing Concord and all is well |
Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.08.21 15:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 21/08/2008 13:45:14 So short answer is no, hmm, smelling a bit of a flaw there in all the "it's a legitimate tactic".
Bumping is only a counter to station/gate huggers and people hiding in pos' (if you have the password) so where is the problem? |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.21 15:15:00 -
[30]
The best counter to bump would be to not be where the bumper is passing..... |
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