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murder one
Gallente Invincible Reason
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Posted - 2008.08.19 04:46:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Yakov Draken Edited by: Yakov Draken on 19/08/2008 04:35:38
Originally by: murder one Still confused. EMP's damage type is 100% favorable. EM is the lowest resist on about 60% of my ships.
Two things.
1. EMP does almost half EMP, plenty of EXP and some kinetic
2. EM is the highest resist on armor tanks using EANM's - this is a very popular setup. Resists of around 85% vs EM are fairly common.
Ahh. Now I get it.
Assuming that your perceptions are that of the general player base at large (assuming a lot I'm sure) then it makes sense to me why people would think that EMP is a poor choice for damage type.
It's pretty much incorrect. Most of the (let me be specific here) *armor* tanks that I come across these days have EM as the lowest resist, or nearly as low as explosive.
Thanks for trying however. |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.08.19 06:25:00 -
[62]
Originally by: murder one Ahh. Now I get it.
Assuming that your perceptions are that of the general player base at large (assuming a lot I'm sure) then it makes sense to me why people would think that EMP is a poor choice for damage type..
"Assumming a lot" is fine except at the end of your post where you pwn me with your assumptions. EMP is a fantastic ammo type and this is well understood by most players. RF EMP is tasty stuff and I wouldn't fly without it.
My three favourite matar M ammo types are (in order):
1. Barrrage M - luv it plus its' L version 2. RF EMP M - You can fit this for any fight you don't want to fit Barrage on and you won't come out bad as it has mixed damage types and high base damage. 3. Hail M - good for Hurricanes when used in the close up pwn face role vs armor tankers. Remember it is a gank ship.
Originally by: murder one Most of the . . . *armor* tanks that I come across these days have EM as the lowest resist, or nearly as low as explosive.
Can't say there are many tanks with 3 resists slots that I would fit 3x Active hardeners on compared to 2xEANM's and a DCU. With good compensation skills, and especially with the modestly priced (for BS fittings) Amarr Navy EANM's, it is just a better tank on top of not needing to be turned on. As for fitting more than 4 resist module - sure on a Myrm or Domi but I'd much rather have more gank mods/plates on most things.
Bottomline is winning the hard fights. For me those (excluding Nano/Recon) have been versus other pvp corps who fly alot of Mega's, Typhoons, Armageddons, Tempests and Abaddons. These geenrally fit a EANM/DCU tanks. So I'd rather load Hail M in a Hurricane for that sort of fight, or RF Fusion in a Tempest, though RF EMP is a decent option in any situation it has the range for. Cause RF EMP rocks. No argument there sorry.
Originally by: murder one [Thanks for trying however.
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Uzuki Shootmenow
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Posted - 2008.08.19 07:31:00 -
[63]
BOOST AMARR!
ohwai... |
Holy Lowlander
Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.19 08:05:00 -
[64]
so your own race' t2 ammo sucks ?!
I present to you , SCORCH AMMO !!! Its made out of win, range and cool light effects !
so train for t2 pulse lasers today
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.08.19 08:12:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Holy Lowlander so your own race' t2 ammo sucks ?!
I present to you , SCORCH AMMO !!! Its made out of win, range and cool light effects !
so train for t2 pulse lasers today
read the OP, ranged t2 is fine, its close t2 that sux with very few users compared to faction.
let me guess you pack scorch and navy mults/xray/gamma? im a mind reader. |
Bubleguy
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Posted - 2008.08.19 08:25:00 -
[66]
You compare only the damage and the penalties between Faction and T2.
I think you are forgetting an important point or maybe I am wrong.
Let's take the example of cruise missiles... or heavy missile if you prefer . The difference between T2 and faction is : To use T2 missile you have to use T2 launchers, and to use T2 launchers you need to have train the skill heavy missile specialization that give 2% rate of fire per level. So if you take time to train that skill lvl, you will launch T2 missile more often than with faction one.
It is the same with turrets. For example if you use T2 crystal you need to use T2pulse/beam that requires beam/pulse specialisation skills(give 2% rate of fire per lvl).
Sure it takes more time to use T2 instead of faction but in the end the damage will be better.
Am I wrong? |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.08.19 08:33:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Dr Fighter on 19/08/2008 08:34:58
Originally by: Bubleguy You compare only the damage and the penalties between Faction and T2.
I think you are forgetting an important point or maybe I am wrong.
Let's take the example of cruise missiles... or heavy missile if you prefer . The difference between T2 and faction is : To use T2 missile you have to use T2 launchers, and to use T2 launchers you need to have train the skill heavy missile specialization that give 2% rate of fire per level. So if you take time to train that skill lvl, you will launch T2 missile more often than with faction one.
It is the same with turrets. For example if you use T2 crystal you need to use T2pulse/beam that requires beam/pulse specialisation skills(give 2% rate of fire per lvl).
Sure it takes more time to use T2 instead of faction but in the end the damage will be better.
Am I wrong?
yes you are wrong.
T2 launchers vs faction launchers: faction fire slightly faster than t2 at spec lvl 5 using either faction or t2 ammo (obviously faction launchers cannot fire t2 missiles, but if they could they would do slightly more dmg as they do with any other missile)
2 guns vs faction guns: faction do slightly less dmg (few %) using either t2 or faction ammo (obviously faction guns cannot fire t2 ammo, but if they could they would do slightly less dmg as they do with any other ammo)
the ammo itself is the issue remeber not the weapon.
t2 long range ammo does more than faction long range, the penalties worth it for the dmg boost t2 short range ammo does more or less the same as faction but with horrible penalties |
kessah
Suicidal Tendencies Ltd
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Posted - 2008.08.19 08:34:00 -
[68]
I rarly use Hail its short range make it very tough to work with in anything battleship sized. What i find is if im in an engagement switch ammo is only done when you really notice a ship tank your weapons. Mostly your committed all through the fight.
Also tbh i think Auto Cannon ammo takes up so much cargo space, i mean for dual 650's you normally have to pack at least 1000ish RF and about the same with Barrage i rarly bring hail as im down to nearly 12 800's in my hold and 16 is the minimum i like to bring. |
adriaans
Amarr Explora Empire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.08.19 08:40:00 -
[69]
lower the penalties and the penalties that mutliply the more you have and lower the time needed to manufacture, there, solved ;)
that said, t2 ammo is cheaper....:P |
The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.19 08:56:00 -
[70]
Edited by: The Djego on 19/08/2008 09:02:33
Originally by: murder one Void, Hail etc. needs about 30-40% DPS increase to make it worth it. Particularly Void with it's horrible cap use and garbage tracking. Hail isn't so bad when I use it with my Hurricane. Sometimes I use it as a different damage type over RF EMP M.
Void is simply more specilized.
Void is a bit diffrent in use that Faction Amno. It sucks preaty close and against anything smaller than a BC. Even BCs and BS are tricky targets because of the reduced sweet spot where you can do the best Damage. It has a higher Optimal than Antimatter what leads to a acceptalbe Tracking near the Optimal(4-5km for BS) if the Target is webbed. Because of the smaller Falloff the Amno only realy works between 3-8km on the BS Level. So timing and manuvering is importent to get as soon as possible on a good Range and hold your Target there. So you have 2 Options, timing and a bit luck to land of 4-5km of the other Ship where Tracking is less of an Issue or bumping it and try to Web it at a good range(if you do it wrong and it stops to close to you, you loose lots of Damage even against a BS because of the Tracking.
Before Faction Amno you had to relaod Null against sub BC Targets most of the time(so only Void was a killer, you needet Null to). But since Faction Amno donŠt have all this Drawbacks and does nearly the same Damage and can hit sub BC Targets acceptalbe itŠs not realy worth to use it any more.
25% more Damage would change this, shure it is harder to handle and have Drawbacks but it would lead to a advantage if used right, like it clearly leads to a disadvantage if you do it wrong. Null mostly does the job well against smaller Targets(they try to stay out of Web any way) so I would go back to Void/Null lossing some flexiblity of Faction Amno for more Damage when I need it(mostly Commands and the strong Active/Buffer/Passive Tanks of the BS that you encounter in PVP today.
Quote: lower the penalties and the penalties that mutliply the more you have and lower the time needed to manufacture, there, solved ;)
Price is not the Issues, if you PVP wiht Rigs, Implants, T2 Fittings and Factiongear(at least to slove the CPU Issuses in my case) 1-2 M for Amno donŠt matter at all, itŠs all about performace. We donŠt need 2 Amnos dooing the same(while Shortrange T2 expept of Hail does even worse because of the Penaltys). |
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.19 09:03:00 -
[71]
Please do not feed Butter Dog.
Barrage - Great Autocannon Ammo Null - Great Blaster Ammo Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles - Long Range HAMs (great) Scorch - Awesome for Pulse Lasers Aurora - Nice for Sniping |
The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.19 09:09:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Please do not feed Butter Dog.
Barrage - Great Autocannon Ammo Null - Great Blaster Ammo Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles - Long Range HAMs (great) Scorch - Awesome for Pulse Lasers Aurora - Nice for Sniping
Its not about the Long Range T2 Amnos, its about the short Range... |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.19 09:46:00 -
[73]
Originally by: murder one
My RF EMP works great. WTH are you talking about?
It's 10% less raw damage when compared to Hail (contrasted by 1% less damage when comparing CN AM with Void, etc)?
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Epidemis
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Posted - 2008.08.19 10:11:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Butter Dog Just a quick one.
Basically nearly all T2 ammo has little practical purpose (aside from Barrage, Null, and the long-range sniping ammo) thanks to faction ammo.
If you want an example...
T2 heavy missiles.
Less speed than faction, less range, less damage, extra penalties... pls just fix it (and things like Hail and Void).
ta x
Topic moderated - Mitnal
Cost. I know this isnt that much of an issue in pvp, but in pve some T2 ammo is ftw. |
Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.19 11:25:00 -
[75]
I'd rather just have close range T2 ammo that did more damage than T1, less damage than Faction, but didn't have tracking and cap issues. The way it works out right now there may as well just not be T2 ammo available because there's almost no situations where I'd actually use it. Whatever damage benefit it has over T1 is lost in the tracking unless its a gate gank but if its a gate gank I probably wouldn't waste expensive ammo anyway. |
The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:02:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence I'd rather just have close range T2 ammo that did more damage than T1, less damage than Faction, but didn't have tracking and cap issues. The way it works out right now there may as well just not be T2 ammo available because there's almost no situations where I'd actually use it. Whatever damage benefit it has over T1 is lost in the tracking unless its a gate gank but if its a gate gank I probably wouldn't waste expensive ammo anyway.
So why should somebody spare his Cargo Hold for a Amno that is simply worse but a bit cheaper? Damage Bonus is not voided by the Tracking Penalty, it only makes it from a general choice to a more specific choice, denpending on the Target, Range, Speed, Weaponsize, etc.
I think I couldnŠt care less if I spend 1000 ISK p/u or 300 ISK p/u since even BS donŠt need more than 200-250 Charges in general(if i kill it solo). If you use overheat you are spending way more only for a short boost...
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:07:00 -
[77]
As of this exact moment there are a number of useless missiles in the Caldari lineup:
Precision Heavy Missiles - 25% less damage for a mere 250m/s explosion velocity. Also, the missiles travel slower than the T1 varient while slowing you down.
Precision Cruise Missiles - 25% less damage but it gets the SAME explosion velocity as the Precision Heavy Missile. Useless given the current situation where if you aren't fighting a battleship it's probably a nanoship and that means it gets to ignore most of your damage anyway. Also, they have a speed penalty.
Fury Heavy Missiles - Extra damage is nice but your range is hacked down to slightly more than that of a HAM. HAM's do more damage - why bother loading Fury Heavy Missiles?
Fury Cruise Missiles - Extra damage, range is hacked down to slightly more than Torpedos. Torpedos do more damage - why bother?
However there are some exceedingly useful T2 missiles:
Precison Light Missiles - the first and last word in the Caldari arsenel against the nano ship. Essentially the only munition that works against a nano ship.
Javelin Rockets - Lets you stay outside of web range when spitting rockets at people. Downside is they make rockets suck harder than they do already in terms of damage.
Javelin HAM's - similar damage to Heavy Missiles with similar range. HAM's and their long range varient give you the best of both worlds.
Javelin Torps - Less range than Cruise missiles but still sufficient for many PVE (and a handful of PVP applications). Less damage than the T1 varient but it still delivers loads of damage.
Rage Torps - Target not moving and at point blank range? Rage torps are the last word in the caldari sup capital lineup for delivering unimaginable pain. The downside is you rarely find a situation to use them in.
Rage Rockets - Make your rockets suck less at delivering damage. The downside is you're guarnteed to be inside web range without excellet skills and a range bonused ship. |
Baudolino
Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:11:00 -
[78]
I used tech II caldari, minmatar and gallente ammo for a short time after they were released.
I quickly found them to be an utter joke that completely screwed your setups and have not used them since.
Just one of many examples in which CCPs proficiency at nerfing game content advances fundamentally topsy-turvy gaming realities.
I can only wonder at how crap tech III ammo is going to be.. Afterall- it seems opposed to CCP policy that the combination of isk and skill should create a significant divide between those who have both and those who have neither..
I should probably thank them as i never seen to be getting richer in more then skills |
Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:21:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Derek Sigres As of this exact moment there are a number of useless missiles in the Caldari lineup:
Precision Heavy Missiles - 25% less damage for a mere 250m/s explosion velocity. Also, the missiles travel slower than the T1 varient while slowing you down.
Precision Cruise Missiles - 25% less damage but it gets the SAME explosion velocity as the Precision Heavy Missile. Useless given the current situation where if you aren't fighting a battleship it's probably a nanoship and that means it gets to ignore most of your damage anyway. Also, they have a speed penalty.
Fury Heavy Missiles - Extra damage is nice but your range is hacked down to slightly more than that of a HAM. HAM's do more damage - why bother loading Fury Heavy Missiles?
Fury Cruise Missiles - Extra damage, range is hacked down to slightly more than Torpedos. Torpedos do more damage - why bother?
However there are some exceedingly useful T2 missiles:
Precison Light Missiles - the first and last word in the Caldari arsenel against the nano ship. Essentially the only munition that works against a nano ship.
Javelin Rockets - Lets you stay outside of web range when spitting rockets at people. Downside is they make rockets suck harder than they do already in terms of damage.
Javelin HAM's - similar damage to Heavy Missiles with similar range. HAM's and their long range varient give you the best of both worlds.
Javelin Torps - Less range than Cruise missiles but still sufficient for many PVE (and a handful of PVP applications). Less damage than the T1 varient but it still delivers loads of damage.
Rage Torps - Target not moving and at point blank range? Rage torps are the last word in the caldari sup capital lineup for delivering unimaginable pain. The downside is you rarely find a situation to use them in.
Rage Rockets - Make your rockets suck less at delivering damage. The downside is you're guarnteed to be inside web range without excellet skills and a range bonused ship.
Great roundup, thanks! For instance, I didn't see the equality of Javelin HAM and HMs before |
Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.08.19 18:10:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Denuo Secus
Originally by: Derek Sigres As of this exact moment there are a number of useless missiles in the Caldari lineup:
Precision Heavy Missiles - 25% less damage for a mere 250m/s explosion velocity. Also, the missiles travel slower than the T1 varient while slowing you down.
Precision Cruise Missiles - 25% less damage but it gets the SAME explosion velocity as the Precision Heavy Missile. Useless given the current situation where if you aren't fighting a battleship it's probably a nanoship and that means it gets to ignore most of your damage anyway. Also, they have a speed penalty.
Fury Heavy Missiles - Extra damage is nice but your range is hacked down to slightly more than that of a HAM. HAM's do more damage - why bother loading Fury Heavy Missiles?
Fury Cruise Missiles - Extra damage, range is hacked down to slightly more than Torpedos. Torpedos do more damage - why bother?
However there are some exceedingly useful T2 missiles:
Precison Light Missiles - the first and last word in the Caldari arsenel against the nano ship. Essentially the only munition that works against a nano ship.
Javelin Rockets - Lets you stay outside of web range when spitting rockets at people. Downside is they make rockets suck harder than they do already in terms of damage.
Javelin HAM's - similar damage to Heavy Missiles with similar range. HAM's and their long range varient give you the best of both worlds.
Javelin Torps - Less range than Cruise missiles but still sufficient for many PVE (and a handful of PVP applications). Less damage than the T1 varient but it still delivers loads of damage.
Rage Torps - Target not moving and at point blank range? Rage torps are the last word in the caldari sup capital lineup for delivering unimaginable pain. The downside is you rarely find a situation to use them in.
Rage Rockets - Make your rockets suck less at delivering damage. The downside is you're guarnteed to be inside web range without excellet skills and a range bonused ship.
Great roundup, thanks! For instance, I didn't see the equality of Javelin HAM and HMs before
Its a good roundup if you take T2 missiles in isolation.
But factor in the lack of penalties from Faction, and the extra benefits, and the vast majority of T2 missiles in fact don't really have a role.
PS - why did they remove the word shit from the tpoic title? it aint moderated these days |
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Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.08.19 18:37:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Null - Great Blaster Ammo
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Zanarkand
Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.19 18:57:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Null - Great Blaster Ammo
?
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.19 18:59:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Denuo Secus
Originally by: Derek Sigres As of this exact moment there are a number of useless missiles in the Caldari lineup:
Precision Heavy Missiles - 25% less damage for a mere 250m/s explosion velocity. Also, the missiles travel slower than the T1 varient while slowing you down.
Precision Cruise Missiles - 25% less damage but it gets the SAME explosion velocity as the Precision Heavy Missile. Useless given the current situation where if you aren't fighting a battleship it's probably a nanoship and that means it gets to ignore most of your damage anyway. Also, they have a speed penalty.
Fury Heavy Missiles - Extra damage is nice but your range is hacked down to slightly more than that of a HAM. HAM's do more damage - why bother loading Fury Heavy Missiles?
Fury Cruise Missiles - Extra damage, range is hacked down to slightly more than Torpedos. Torpedos do more damage - why bother?
However there are some exceedingly useful T2 missiles:
Precison Light Missiles - the first and last word in the Caldari arsenel against the nano ship. Essentially the only munition that works against a nano ship.
Javelin Rockets - Lets you stay outside of web range when spitting rockets at people. Downside is they make rockets suck harder than they do already in terms of damage.
Javelin HAM's - similar damage to Heavy Missiles with similar range. HAM's and their long range varient give you the best of both worlds.
Javelin Torps - Less range than Cruise missiles but still sufficient for many PVE (and a handful of PVP applications). Less damage than the T1 varient but it still delivers loads of damage.
Rage Torps - Target not moving and at point blank range? Rage torps are the last word in the caldari sup capital lineup for delivering unimaginable pain. The downside is you rarely find a situation to use them in.
Rage Rockets - Make your rockets suck less at delivering damage. The downside is you're guarnteed to be inside web range without excellet skills and a range bonused ship.
Great roundup, thanks! For instance, I didn't see the equality of Javelin HAM and HMs before
Its a good roundup if you take T2 missiles in isolation.
But factor in the lack of penalties from Faction, and the extra benefits, and the vast majority of T2 missiles in fact don't really have a role.
PS - why did they remove the word shit from the tpoic title? it aint moderated these days
From a high damage standpoint for "general use" I'd opt for faction missiles. The has been exactly ONE instance where I loaded fury cruise missiles - I was helping lay seige to a POS (I don't yet have T2 torpedos - everything else but torps and citadels though) and I figured I'd best bring something that did more damage than cruise. Faction missiles are too expensive to waste thousands of em on an installation so I just used the T2's.
But the javelin missiles and the precision lights are unquestionably useful and their faction equivalent doesn't fufill the same function (I.E. hitting small fast targets or hitting targets at range). Most of the rage/fury missiles sit in the marginally useful or useless category along with the rest of the missiles. |
Zantei
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Posted - 2008.08.19 19:37:00 -
[84]
Void is funny as shit, it doesn't hit anything at all. When the web nerf comes in, it'll be even more useless. |
Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.08.19 19:40:00 -
[85]
Nah don't remove faction ammo, just fix t2 ammo. really. |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.19 19:55:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Null - Great Blaster Ammo
With Null you lose a bit of damage, compared to plain Antimatter. But the penalty is not that large and the Ammo makes it up for a bit of extra range. Null may not be the best choice for all situations, but is overall, very useful. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.19 19:59:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Zantei Void is funny as shit, it doesn't hit anything at all. When the web nerf comes in, it'll be even more useless.
Why do you think they call it Void? Void does afterall mean useless, or ineffectual.
It's just like fury missiles are so called because you get enraged when trying to use them. And Rage missiles cause even more anger thus the stronger anger synonym. |
Zantei
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Posted - 2008.08.19 20:40:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Zantei Void is funny as shit, it doesn't hit anything at all. When the web nerf comes in, it'll be even more useless.
Why do you think they call it Void? Void does afterall mean useless, or ineffectual.
It's just like fury missiles are so called because you get enraged when trying to use them. And Rage missiles cause even more anger thus the stronger anger synonym.
lmao ;p |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.20 03:50:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Zantei Void is funny as shit, it doesn't hit anything at all. When the web nerf comes in, it'll be even more useless.
Why do you think they call it Void? Void does afterall mean useless, or ineffectual.
It's just like fury missiles are so called because you get enraged when trying to use them. And Rage missiles cause even more anger thus the stronger anger synonym.
Awesome |
Rhaegor Stormborn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.08.20 03:57:00 -
[90]
The only people who would be against removing the penalties from Tech 2 ammo are people who run missions and sell faction ammo or they don't have the skills to use Tech 2 ammo themselves. There is absolutely no reason that Tech 2 ammo should have such steep penalties. It is Tech 2, it should be way better than Tech 1 ammo and if faction ammo was not around, people would in many cases use Tech 1 ammo over Tech 2 due to the penalties. |
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