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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Henky
Research And Development Enterprises
    |
Posted - 2008.08.19 16:50:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Dianabolic
LOL, no, he really wasn't. We don't DO space rental any more, did you miss the memo?
Just quoting you on that bit,
Maybe ccp should take your titans away to, maybe some of that isk you reseived found its way into capital assembly arrays that build the titans  . . . , maybe even in the titans
Maybe = Guilty in ccp's view of illigal isk. |
Boom ChickaBoom
Caldari
Friendly Pod Poppers
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 17:02:00 -
[122]
Just wondering why KIA would double post. An official dashio thread has already been started by dashio has it not?
Mabee this is KIAedd's alt attention whoring again.
C/D? |
Mia Archer
Amarr
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 01:37:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Mia Archer
Once CCP took 5 billion isk from me because I transfered it between two characters on different accounts that I am the owner of, for buying isk... true story
If you forgot to petition it, then you deserve to lose those 5 billion.
Oh i did petion thats where it gets even better... they banned/locked the account the isk came from pending investigation for almost a month and left me with a -3billion isk wallet on the other account, then when they decided it was actualy my isk and gave it back they gave it back to the account it came from still leaving me with a -3billion isk wallet so that after waiting a month i had to myself go send the isk again to rebalance the account and hope that they didnt decide i was buying it again |
kublai
Caldari
Art of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 02:44:00 -
[124]
You ALL have illegal isk.
In real life, most currency will have faint traces of illegal narcotics, even that belonging to little old grannies, are they crack *****s in disguise?
No, money circulates, as it does in eve, money circulates, the minerals you buy in jita have large odds of being macroed, the man buying your latest invented hulk may be that very macro.
I *know* several people I scammed were isk buyers, not gtc sellers but isk buyers, you deal with enough idiots and you're bound to steal some ill-gotten isk, the worst part is many of them will go "hah, it doesn't matter i'll just go buy more isk off [insert random daft website you shouldn't visit here].
Isk, minerals etc circulates, it begins with a macro miner selling it at low low rates no honest miner can match (without getting quite agitated at any rate), or someone like me scamming a blithering idiot I met in a trade channel, then the isk/minerals are passed onwards, turned into ships etc etc.
Now, "skimming" isk in what is a highly suspect manner which is CLAIMED not to involve account sharing (claims on a forum vs ccp's IP logs etc, whom shall I listen to?), organized sweat-shop farming, oh I know how this works too by the way, i've scammed several people I strongly suspected of being isk farmers, well to be honest several of them told me how their damn operation worked, one man with 5-9 accounts at once ratting with the blessing of some alliance that would have to be BLIND not to notice what this is kicking back ISK to the leadership for the standings and protection.
So from this we can conclude that, if the victim wasn't account sharing, he was in fact in CHARGE of taking the alliance farmer kick back, this is in your face obvious business, the isk farmers themselves don't try to hide it, they don't care what CCP does to them, they buy accounts whole-sale, they have entire farms of the damn things training up their little ravens.
All in all, it's bloody rotten to the core, and we won't get the whole picture on the forums, however if CCP has banned a titan character without due investigation they would have to be monumentally stupid, and while they are only devs, I do not for one second believe them to be that thick, there is a larger picture here, and it stinks.
You found your quick fix, you took the chance, you got burned, stop crying, you knew damn well what you were doing.
Good job CCP.
PS. As some random person will probably point out, I too knowingly "accepted" illegit isk, but the point I was making is, we -all- do, the difference is, I obtain it via the age old legitimate game mechanic of robbing a bugger blind, where as the op did it (not only at a vastly larger scale), but as a business deal to benefit and facilitate EULA violations on a large scale. |
Swirlar
Miners in Black
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 03:05:00 -
[125]
With Darth now stepping down, and Ketch and the titan out of the game, who's taking odds on how long DAI will keep hold of BWF?
Blood's in the water now, leadership is weakened, moral is low, several folks have left the boredom of gate camping OIJ gate on infinitum, and they think they can hide behind cyno-jammers. Roadkill could not, Dai can't either.
Time for some killin!  |
Lopin Acheteur
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 13:47:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Swirlar
With Darth now stepping down, and Ketch and the titan out of the game, who's taking odds on how long DAI will keep hold of BWF?
Blood's in the water now, leadership is weakened, moral is low, several folks have left the boredom of gate camping OIJ gate on infinitum, and they think they can hide behind cyno-jammers. Roadkill could not, Dai can't either.
Time for some killin!
BWF is near impossible to hold vs people raiding, as it's a very short trip to run back to empire if the defenders outnumber the attackers. But because of that there's next to no reason to actually hold the space, as it isn't very good for mining, or ratting, and doesn't have any good moons. So the real question is who would actually try and take it ? I mean, given it would probably be defended by Goonswarm and KIA in addition to Daisho. You'd be better off attacking some of THEIR space that is acutally alot better. |
IWANTWHATISMINE
LIARSANDTHIEFPAYNOW
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 14:52:00 -
[127]
Hello. Bad situation. Could be worse soon. There are more of you out there. Theives, who will lose all and have to quit eve, how unfortunate, but I will not cry. No skills, no dedication, and use false isk to buy cap ships never earned with real work, and betray friends/corp for isk. Also consider these people hack accounts, and you associate with them, and these are the greatest enemy of CCP, so what does that make you? Then you make cap ship blobs with stolen ISK and think you have skills, and kill off honest players and take their space, and sell it to the isk farmers. You think CCP will be kind to you? 
Also perhaps you to consider, maybe someone on the other side considers this offense who you stole from and has arranged for CCP to get data on where your isk comes from and made a clear road to you for all to see. Maybe they are smarter than you think. Maybe it is cheaper to get rid of you than to pay you, they only lose alts and some isk, but the same cost as paying you. Maybe you think you own them, but you never will. Maybe they are tired of being stolen from and lied to, and decide its time to get rid of you. You declare war on them, you stole from them, what you expect. Maybe it is your turn to pay now.
Many options, one is true. One thing always true, in the end you lose.
Some people should never be trusted, and you betray friends/corp to help them is HUGE mistake. You know better road but greed is king of your world. Maybe you are the farmer now, you work for them, they own you. Start ratting your quota.
They never were your friend, and loyal friends are few. Now look at you. No tears, this is the future. This is what happens when you betray real friends to help isk seller.
By the way, can I have your stuff. You know I deserve it. Contract it to me in Jita, I am waiting. |
Paddlefoot Aeon
Neogen Industries
Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 15:18:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Paddlefoot Aeon on 20/08/2008 15:19:13
Originally by: kublai
Now, "skimming" isk in what is a highly suspect manner which is CLAIMED not to involve account sharing (claims on a forum vs ccp's IP logs etc, whom shall I listen to?).
Normally this would be true, however with Ketch this doesn't apply. Ketch travels for work, and frequently logs in from various hotels across the US, Canada, England, Europe... and a couple of times from Japan (if i remember correctly). There have been occasions when Ketch has been playing from 3 different time zones within the same week.
I don't know all the details, and neither does anyone posting here. CCP know what their logs and data show, Ketch knows what happened on his end. Despite everything that people are saying about CCP being "evil" and such, I cannot believe that there is a massive attempt to "screw Ketch" on CCP's part. I trust Ketch and believe his series of events, and therefore I believe that CCP has made an honest mistake.
I'm sure that once this misunderstanding is sorted, everything will be put right.
Edit: spelling |
kublai
Caldari
Art of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 15:58:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
Edited by: Paddlefoot Aeon on 20/08/2008 15:19:13
Originally by: kublai
Now, "skimming" isk in what is a highly suspect manner which is CLAIMED not to involve account sharing (claims on a forum vs ccp's IP logs etc, whom shall I listen to?).
Normally this would be true, however with Ketch this doesn't apply. Ketch travels for work, and frequently logs in from various hotels across the US, Canada, England, Europe... and a couple of times from Japan (if i remember correctly). There have been occasions when Ketch has been playing from 3 different time zones within the same week.
I don't know all the details, and neither does anyone posting here. CCP know what their logs and data show, Ketch knows what happened on his end. Despite everything that people are saying about CCP being "evil" and such, I cannot believe that there is a massive attempt to "screw Ketch" on CCP's part. I trust Ketch and believe his series of events, and therefore I believe that CCP has made an honest mistake.
I'm sure that once this misunderstanding is sorted, everything will be put right.
Edit: spelling
If that should be true (it was my brother who stole the stuff honest), I refer you to the next part of my post detailing if he indeed was the man running the account. |
Paddlefoot Aeon
Neogen Industries
Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 16:35:00 -
[130]
So, lets play a game of "legal or illegal".
1. Is an Alliance granting access to their space for a price legal or illegal? If illegal, BOB would have gotten in trouble in the past. RED would get in trouble. D2 would have gotten in trouble. Right now, Pandemic Legion is charging to access to Fountain. Clearly... renting space is legal within the terms of the EULA, or it would have been stopped ages ago.
2. If I'm in Pandemic Legion, am I responsible if one of my "renter" corps breaks the EULA? Clearly not... all I'm doing by "renting" them space is "a) Not shooting them when I see them in space" and "b) perhaps giving them docking access at my stations". If they exploit and break the EULA, that's not Pandemic legion's problem.
3. Is ratting 23/7 illegal? No... you have no life... but no, its not illegal.
4. Is ratting using a macro program to automate tasks illegal? YES. Can the landlords know for sure that their renters are using a macro program??? Most likely not 100% sure. After all, if CCP could know 100%, these macro-users would be banned already. If CCP, with access to their servers, IP tracing and such can't know 100%, then how are the landlords supposed to? So, clearly the landlord cannot be held responsible if one of their renters breaks the EULA, by using a macro or through another means.
5. Is account sharing illegal? YES
Scenario #1 One person owns 2 characters... one has wallet access in a landlord alliance, and the other is an out-of-alliance character. If Landlord character sends ISK to non-alliance character, is this illegal? NO (ISK exchanges happen all the time). Is this account sharing??? NO
Scenario #2: 2 different people own the non-alliance and the landlord character. Landlord owner logs in and sends ISK to non-alliance player. Is this illegal??? NO... for the same reasons as #1.
Scenario #3: 2 different people own the accounts, and non-alliance owner uses the other person's password to access the Landlord character and transfer the ISK. Is this illegal? YES... its account sharing and illegal by terms of the EULA.
If the Landlord alliance is not responsible for EULA violations of its renters, how can the NON-alliance person recieving the ISK be responsible???
6. Is using real money to buy ISK illegal??? Other than GTCs, YES, its illegal. (don't get me started on GTCs). So, if any of the above scenarios involved real money... they become ILLEGAL.
7. Is corp theft illegal? NO... its a shitty thing to do, but allowed within the EULA and game mechanics.
So far... the only real things that seem to be illegal are:
1. Using real money to buy ISK
and
2. Logging in to someone else's account
and
3. Using a Macro program
Provided Ketch did neither of these 3 things, I don't see how a ban is justified.
That being said, if he did use real money or someone else's login info, or use a macro to farm the ISK himself then the ban is justified.
Have I missed anything? |
|
Mynera Nic'Atoch
Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 17:00:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Mynera Nic''Atoch on 20/08/2008 17:02:10
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
1. Using real money to buy ISK
and
2. Logging in to someone else's account
and
3. Using a Macro program
Provided Ketch did neither of these 3 things, I don't see how a ban is justified.
That being said, if he did use real money or someone else's login info, or use a macro to farm the ISK himself then the ban is justified.
Have I missed anything?
Yes .. using your 'travels' to mask account sharing in that you allow a friend (or relative) to use your accounts when you are not available is an EULA breach. Not provable, unless you get lazy and accidentally leave an impossible time/distance gap between logins on your accounts.
Maintaining plausible deniability over a prolonged period requires attention to detail.
Myn |
Dianabolic
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 17:07:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Henky
Originally by: Dianabolic
LOL, no, he really wasn't. We don't DO space rental any more, did you miss the memo?
Just quoting you on that bit,
Maybe ccp should take your titans away to, maybe some of that isk you reseived found its way into capital assembly arrays that build the titans . . . , maybe even in the titans
Maybe = Guilty in ccp's view of illigal isk.
So you're saying that ANYONE who has rented space should be banned?
That about the sum of it? |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 00:01:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
maybe has something to do with accessing accounts that don't belong to him and stealing isk from them ? 
and that's supposed to be what clears his name ?
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Skunk |
Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 03:19:00 -
[134]
The straight fact of the matter is, CCP can not act on simple here-say or conjecture, they must act on straight and simple facts. If in this case the "victim" can not provide reasonable proof to dissolve the facts that CCP have against him then he is out of luck.
That said, apart from what CCP may have on the "victim", the very fact that he took part in any dealings with an account harboring isk as a receiver for isk farmers (renting space), speaks volumes about the situation he is. The intent or reasoning of why he put his hand in the cookie jar is irrelevant, the cookies were poisoned and the mere fact he put his hand in the jar in the first place is all that matters.
As for how much ISK exists in eve that is "washed" through or by isk farms is also irrelevant, it is a state of affairs we have all known about for a long time. As long as CCP sticks to acting on the transactions of that isk in a direct capacity to the most immediate transactions involved with the isk, we can be fairly assured the system is as impartial as possible.
When we start to see tom and larry getting banned for buying something off the market that was supplied to the market from mike who bought isk then we got a problem but that is not the case, all I have ever seen in these type of outcry threads is people who have and can be linked to isk farming within 1 or 2 hops of the isk movement process.
Daisho and the person in question got dealt a bad card but from all the facts on the table, it would appear that he sat down ready and willing to play a hand and he lost big time. |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:02:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Mia Archer
Once CCP took 5 billion isk from me because I transfered it between two characters on different accounts that I am the owner of, for buying isk... true story
If you forgot to petition it, then you deserve to lose those 5 billion.
o.O
So can someone tell me exactly how much is the threshold for defensive petitioning?
If someone sends me 1 billion isk .. do i petition it?
10 billion?
1 million?
SKUNK |
Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:00:00 -
[136]
If CCP were serious about regulating account sharing, Sir Molle would have been permabanned long ago.
|
|
GM Guard
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:55:00 -
[137]
Hi everyone.
There has been a lot of speculation on this thread, some of it close to the truth, some of it not so.
I feel it is best at this point to clarify what happened, and why it happened, since the players involved have brought their version of events to the forum for public scrutiny.
The titan pilot had an alt on another account. That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense. "Thx for your protection"..."Boy your ship"(sic)...etc.
All of this ISK was later transferred to the titan pilot directly by his alt and shortly thereafter the alt was deleted. The 45 billion ISK was used to fund the larger part of the titan that we later decided to remove from the game.
We discovered all of this during a routine investigation into an ISK selling operation that had been hacking accounts with key loggers and stealing ISK from players. We were not willing to overlook the fact that someone had just bought a Titan with ISK that came directly from account hacking ISK sellers. Blame us if you want.
Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
Contrary to what has been stated on this thread, we did actually make some efforts to compensate other alliance members for their contributions to this project and as of now those efforts are still ongoing.
I can safely speak for every EVE GM when I say that none of us enjoys a mess like this one. We know that removing a titan, even one funded in this manner, causes distress for innocent alliance members, but the presence of ISK sellers causes such an amount of problems for our players that we have to take a firm stance.
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards,
Lead GM Guard
EVE Online Customer Support |
|
Farham
Titan Industries Technology Team
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:00:00 -
[138]
I guess this constitutes knowing the other side of the story and as usual, it changes things.
|
Toolbert
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:01:00 -
[139]
Originally by: GM Guard
Hi everyone.
There has been a lot of speculation on this thread, some of it close to the truth, some of it not so.
I feel it is best at this point to clarify what happened, and why it happened, since the players involved have brought their version of events to the forum for public scrutiny.
The titan pilot had an alt on another account. That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense. "Thx for your protection"..."Boy your ship"(sic)...etc.
All of this ISK was later transferred to the titan pilot directly by his alt and shortly thereafter the alt was deleted. The 45 billion ISK was used to fund the larger part of the titan that we later decided to remove from the game.
We discovered all of this during a routine investigation into an ISK selling operation that had been hacking accounts with key loggers and stealing ISK from players. We were not willing to overlook the fact that someone had just bought a Titan with ISK that came directly from account hacking ISK sellers. Blame us if you want.
Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
Contrary to what has been stated on this thread, we did actually make some efforts to compensate other alliance members for their contributions to this project and as of now those efforts are still ongoing.
I can safely speak for every EVE GM when I say that none of us enjoys a mess like this one. We know that removing a titan, even one funded in this manner, causes distress for innocent alliance members, but the presence of ISK sellers causes such an amount of problems for our players that we have to take a firm stance.
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards,
Lead GM Guard
EVE Online Customer Support
I thought it was CCPs policy to not discuss this sort of thing no matter what? |
Lemonx
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:02:00 -
[140]
Originally by: GM Guard
That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense.
Many but not all or most? Few hundred million isk per char? Thats 150+ diffrent chars then? Were all those banned too? |
|
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:13:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Toolbert
I thought it was CCPs policy to not discuss this sort of thing no matter what?
I'm glad they did. |
Synapse Archae
Amarr
Demonic Retribution
Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:15:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 21/08/2008 17:16:51
Originally by: Lemonx
Originally by: GM Guard
That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense.
Many but not all or most? Few hundred million isk per char? Thats 150+ diffrent chars then? Were all those banned too?
No you dolt they obviously left them in the game so they could hack more accounts. I mean, where's the risk vs reward if your account can't be hacked right?
Of course they banned them.
EDIT: Huge thanks to GM Guard for his post, I know the GM team hates to get involved like that but it sounds like youre doing an amazing job keeping eve clean. Keep up the great work and don't be afraid to get your hands dirty. |
Spathi
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:15:00 -
[143]
"Boy your ship"
Omg, thats almost as good as "Violence my boat" and "Steal my box" |
Toolbert
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:18:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: Lemonx
Originally by: GM Guard
That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense.
Many but not all or most? Few hundred million isk per char? Thats 150+ diffrent chars then? Were all those banned too?
No you dolt they obviously left them in the game so they could hack more accounts. I mean, where's the risk vs reward if your account can't be hacked right?
Of course they banned them.
Since CCP is breaking their own policy on not discussing banned accounts, I would like to see some actual proof that these isk sellers and farmers are being banned. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:18:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/08/2008 17:25:35
Originally by: Lemonx
Originally by: GM Guard
That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense.
Many but not all or most? Few hundred million isk per char? Thats 150+ diffrent chars then? Were all those banned too?
I think you missed the the key point, which was
Originally by: GM Guard
Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
I think that explains everything. |
Toolbert
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:21:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert
I thought it was CCPs policy to not discuss this sort of thing no matter what?
I'm glad they did.
I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things. |
Lemonx
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:26:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Lemonx on 21/08/2008 17:26:33
|
Lemonx
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:26:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
I think you missed the the key point
I dont care if he was guilty or not. I just feel the report from GM Guard was a bit vague and unspecific. Banning of 150+ ISK sellers might be dev blog or forum thread worthy? I dont know. |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:33:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Toolbert
I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things.
So if you dislike them so much, why are you still here? |
Toolbert
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:37:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert
I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things.
So if you dislike them so much, why are you still here?
hurrrrrr clearly because I dont agree with one thing I think this game is horrible
who wants to be the first pubbie to get all of my stuff because i'm quitting, cya guys later!
how ****ing stupid are you? |
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