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Dura'Lorth
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Posted - 2008.08.15 08:25:00 -
[1]
Dear ccp, give me a t2 version of the rupture that doesnt suck or allow me to fly 2 at once.
Rupture is such a beast of a cruiser its really sad that it T2 counter part right now is a arty platform...
Give it AC boni! ==================================================
You cant spell risk with out isk. |
Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.08.15 08:45:00 -
[2]
Auto munin is rather fun actually, opti bonus is wasted but other than that its vnice. With hail it melts things. Never really liked arty munin, its outclassed in its role by the eagle unfortunately.
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Dr Wellesley
Burden of Mars
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Posted - 2008.08.15 09:18:00 -
[3]
Bonuses.
Bonus means 'a good (man or masculine thing)' and pluralises to Bonii, which was the name given to a group of righteous statesmen, if I recall correctly.
'A good thing' would be 'bonum', which pluralises to bona. I'm sure jnb (if that was his name; the Latin teacher who started the awesome Latin thread) will correct me if I'm wrong though, and I'd appreciate any such correction too.
Either way, bonuses is valid English pluralisation, which is important because trying to pluralise things the way the originating language did leads to people doing things like pluralising octopus to octopi when it's Greek and the plural is thus octopodes. But that's pedantic as all buggery so we just stick to octopuses and bonuses.
On-topic: I've heard great things about AC Muninns.
//--< We like trees. We like trees. They're so green and ... BRANCHY! |
WAuter
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.15 09:43:00 -
[4]
Saying a ship is great is asking for a nerf.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.15 09:52:00 -
[5]
AC Munnins are preety fail.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.08.15 10:05:00 -
[6]
Broadsword doesn't suck. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.08.15 10:07:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 15/08/2008 10:06:48 Rupture gets damage and ROF bonuses to all projectile turrets. It's the only T1 cruiser to get both a damage AND ROF bonus. AC's may be the weakest turret but consider also that the ship is an armor tanker, which is generally the preferable tank for PvP (nano aside), and it doesn't use any cap for weapons. Giving yet another bonus on top of all that is probably going to unbalance the ship and, like was said, end up with a nerf.
It might be a bad nerf too, like removing one of the ship's previous bonuses and keeping the extra AC damage, or... changing the layout to five mid slots and three low slots after people complain too much that it takes too many SPs to fly Minmatar efficiently and that they all should be shield tanked because most of them already are shield tankers. Oh it could happen.
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.15 10:44:00 -
[8]
Ya i want T2 AC Ruppi as well. (Try Armor tanked FI Stabber for that!!)
They could even those Armor resists out a bit to cover the two gaping holes and change
'Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range and 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed per level'
to...
Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret FALLOFF range and 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed per level.
Now that would be a pretty cool ship with 425's and HAIL.. --------- If the Thorax was a car it would look like this |
Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.08.15 10:46:00 -
[9]
Rupture and Broadsword are fine. Muninn needs some love to compensate for the hit it took from scripts introduction and maybe some other rethinking, plus arties need some love in general.
AC Muninn is stupid.
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
5pinDizzy
Amarr Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.08.15 10:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Broadsword doesn't suck.
You're right... *Makes a nerf Broadsword thread"
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TerrorBaBy
Nearly Feared
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Posted - 2008.08.15 18:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dura'Lorth boni!
ARGH
On the other hand: \o/ Auto-Munin 2008? \o/ _______________
Originally by: Constance Harme It's like willfully getting into a car full of strangers and then being driven out to the woods and being shot.
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.15 18:53:00 -
[12]
I have never understood why anyone flies an AC Muninn.
Compared to the Rupture an AC Muninn only has one extra bonus because optimal range is totally useless on AC's, and with current 90% webs the tracking bonus barely makes an impact either. It's tech2 resists totally fail for an armor tank and its total lack of extra useful slots (2 utility highs is just pointless) just make it even worse.
Compare it to the Vagabond which has a better slot layout, the Falloff bonus everyone seems to want on the Muninn and the same turret DPS and drone bay as a Muninn and all of a sudden you reallse that an AC Muninn is not in fact a slightly upgraded Rupture but actually a crap Vagabond.
Now the Muninn needs help but attempting to turn it into a slower, crapper Vagabond isnt the way to help it. Get rid of those stupid utility slots and sort out Artillery and we'll talk.
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Elaine Celeste
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Posted - 2008.08.15 19:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dr Wellesley Bonuses.
Bonus means 'a good (man or masculine thing)' and pluralises to Bonii, which was the name given to a group of righteous statesmen, if I recall correctly.
'A good thing' would be 'bonum', which pluralises to bona. I'm sure jnb (if that was his name; the Latin teacher who started the awesome Latin thread) will correct me if I'm wrong though, and I'd appreciate any such correction too.
Either way, bonuses is valid English pluralisation, which is important because trying to pluralise things the way the originating language did leads to people doing things like pluralising octopus to octopi when it's Greek and the plural is thus octopodes. But that's pedantic as all buggery so we just stick to octopuses and bonuses.
On-topic: I've heard great things about AC Muninns.
Bonii isn't correct in any language, not even latin. It's boni in latin, and officially, it's bonuses in English.
Bone-eye(s) are overrated anyway. CELESTE LOTTERIES: Where losing is almost harder than winning... almost. |
Dr Wellesley
Burden of Mars
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Posted - 2008.08.15 22:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Elaine Celeste Bonii isn't correct in any language, not even latin. It's boni in latin, and officially, it's bonuses in English.
Bone-eye(s) are overrated anyway.
T'was but a typo my dear.
//--< We like trees. We like trees. They're so green and ... BRANCHY! |
jna
Caldari Black Ash Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.09.28 17:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Elaine Celeste
Originally by: Dr Wellesley Bonuses.
Bonus means 'a good (man or masculine thing)' and pluralises to Bonii, which was the name given to a group of righteous statesmen, if I recall correctly.
'A good thing' would be 'bonum', which pluralises to bona. I'm sure jnb (if that was his name; the Latin teacher who started the awesome Latin thread) will correct me if I'm wrong though, and I'd appreciate any such correction too.
Either way, bonuses is valid English pluralisation, which is important because trying to pluralise things the way the originating language did leads to people doing things like pluralising octopus to octopi when it's Greek and the plural is thus octopodes. But that's pedantic as all buggery so we just stick to octopuses and bonuses.
On-topic: I've heard great things about AC Muninns.
Bonii isn't correct in any language, not even latin. It's boni in latin, and officially, it's bonuses in English.
Bone-eye(s) are overrated anyway.
Elaine is perfectly correct.
And it's jna who is the tedious Latin pedant; jnb is the Hulk combat pilot (though both are the same person). ------------------------------------------------- Caeleste naves interretis res gravissimas sunt |
DubanFP
Caldari Kylia Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.28 17:58:00 -
[16]
Broadsword is made of win if you have good friends to back you up. Muninn can eat Hail M for all I care though. Hurricane > Muninn _______________
"Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed. |
Vathar
The Wings of Maak
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Posted - 2008.09.28 18:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: bldyannoyed I have never understood why anyone flies an AC Muninn.
Compared to the Rupture an AC Muninn only has one extra bonus because optimal range is totally useless on AC's, and with current 90% webs the tracking bonus barely makes an impact either. It's tech2 resists totally fail for an armor tank and its total lack of extra useful slots (2 utility highs is just pointless) just make it even worse.
Compare it to the Vagabond which has a better slot layout, the Falloff bonus everyone seems to want on the Muninn and the same turret DPS and drone bay as a Muninn and all of a sudden you reallse that an AC Muninn is not in fact a slightly upgraded Rupture but actually a crap Vagabond.
Now the Muninn needs help but attempting to turn it into a slower, crapper Vagabond isnt the way to help it. Get rid of those stupid utility slots and sort out Artillery and we'll talk.
Who said "utility slots" ???
Launchers are an option, as a Muninn with 5 220mm AC II using fleet EMP will pack around 375 dps. A pair of Hams will pack roughly an extra 60, which is by no means neglectible, and you get another 80 from T2 hobgobs. It's pretty common for minmatar ships to rely on secondary damage systems to make up for subpar AC damage.
You can also easily cram a paid of med nos/neuts in a fit without sacrificing too much.
T2 minnie resists on armor DO suck though, there's no denying that.
Honestly, the biggest problem of the AC muninn is that it's a do or die ship, because it has to fight in web range to outclass a vaga (vagas rely heavily on barrage, while AC muninns can happily use fleet EMP while in web range) In these conditions, it packs a lot more punch than a vaga, but doesn't really work for solo though.
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Annowyn
Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:07:00 -
[18]
Tracking bonus? Yeah. I'd try 425's instead.
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bldyannoyed
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:08:00 -
[19]
Doesnt change the fact that an AC Muninn is gonna have less EHP, and even with a pair of HAM's less DPS than basically any other close range fitted ship its likely to encounter, with the exception of tech 1 cruisers.
Deimos, Sacrilege, Pulse Zealot, Ishtar (nano'd or otherwise), Vagabond (nano'd) or any of the 4 tier 2 bc's should (unless the pilot is a chimp) demolish an AC fit Muninn.
With (at least) an extra low slot it might be competitive, or even better a mid and low, but CCP in their wisdom have given the ship the magical ability to fit a pair of unbonused launchers or a medium neut (if you want 2 you need a 5% PG implant or sacrifice one of your already limited low slots). Thats okay tho, because Minnie ships often use secondary weapon systems to augment their damage. The fact that 2 damage bonuses, 5 light drones and 2 HAM's still leave it with less DPS than pretty much any comparable ship/setup is okay
AC Muninn as it stands is a joke.
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Annowyn
Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:18:00 -
[20]
EFT Warrior Munin:
5x 425 1x Small nos t2 1x Small neut t2
1x MWD t2 1x Scram t2 1x Web t2
1x 1600mm RT Plate 2x Gyro t2 1x DCU t2 1x hardener of your choice, t2 of course.
2x falloff rigs
5x hobgoblin t2s
fits with a 3% pg implant and maxed fitting skills.
536 DPS with hail. 518 with RF Emp
Could use some work.
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Vathar
The Wings of Maak
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:26:00 -
[21]
Yup, cross training is better than flying an AC muninn if you want pure gankage. but it's the only option you have if you want high dps out of a minmatar ship while still keeping some mobility. (note that I prefer to fly disposable ruptures for AC as you don't get enough out of the muninn to justify the pricetag)
Arty rupture has its uses, just don't try to compete with an eagle at long range, it's not built for that. Zealot, muninn and eagle all shine at different ranges, zealot being the most versatile.
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bldyannoyed
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Annowyn EFT Warrior Munin:
5x 425 1x Small nos t2 1x Small neut t2
1x MWD t2 1x Scram t2 1x Web t2
1x 1600mm RT Plate 2x Gyro t2 1x DCU t2 1x hardener of your choice, t2 of course.
2x falloff rigs
5x hobgoblin t2s
fits with a 3% pg implant and maxed fitting skills.
536 DPS with hail. 518 with RF Emp
Could use some work.
Needs Tech II Exp and Kinetic hardeners fitted, otherwise it has an absolutely gaping resist hole on one or the other. Ideally you'd want to drop the DCU for the hardener and keep your damage mods.
And dont rely on Hail. The crippling falloff penalty means you need to be at 5KM before you can do any meaningful DPS. Stick to EMP.
And probably fit trimarks over falloff rigs otherwise you have laughably small (for a HAC) HP buffer. Without the Trimarks you only get 30K or so EHP. Even the glass cannon that is the Deimost can manage more than that in a full gank Neutron fit, and have 300 more DPS with basically identical range whilst maintaining an agility advantage cos its only got an 800 plate fittted.
Of course trimarks slow you down which will make your ship even suckier.
Just one long list of problems innit.
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Volt Taar
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:29:00 -
[23]
AC's work in falloff. Minmatar are used to it.
The problem is, that there is no such modules as "Falloff Enchancer". There is only falloff rigs, and that's it. You can have Tracking Enchancers + Locus Coordinators (Optimal rigs) + Tracking Computers, and all this modules are boosting the base optimal range, but not falloff.
Another point: Bigger medium AC's don't have better falloff. Dual 180mm AC's, 220mm vulcan's and 425mm AC's have the same base falloff - 14km. While laser users can use some range benefits from using bigger calibers with better base optimal range, AC users don't have that possibility.
Make tracking enchancers and tracking computers to have optimal AND falloff bonus, so people can use them with AC's and falloff rigs. Tracking disruptors have effect on both optimal AND falloff now, so why can't we counter that using tracking enchancers and computers to boost our falloff too?
The best what you can have in close range using medium AC's now is 4,2km optimal + 30km falloff. (3+30 realy, since using 3 tracking enchancer II to gain 1,2km optimal is stupid) This is on Sleipnir (+10% bonus to falloff per level) using Barrage M and falloff rigs. (No implants) Ok, AC's are capless weapon, but we are talking about 3 km optimal + 30 km falloff, not 33km optimal. On 33km range, you'll have 50% hits. I'm sure that most of you understand what is the difference between fighting in optimal range and fighting in falloff range, so I'm not going further in details about that.
What we can see now, is a lot of ships using Pulse lasers + optimal rigs + 3 tracking enchancers, having up to 40-60km optimal range with close range medium weapons (Scorch M). With the speed nerf coming, the ability to use range will be more and more important.
Munnin with faloff bonus will die as a long range HAC. And AC munnin with 10% falloff bonus per HAC level and no changes in the modules that boost optimal range but don't boost falloff will still have maximum 3+30 range, so it won't be even close to zealot's ranges in the role of close/medium range damage dealer. --- "Captain, we're sorry. We thought you were dead." "I was. I'm better now." |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:47:00 -
[24]
Rupture is a great T1 cruiser as is the Arbi, Thorax and Caracal. . .every race gets great cruisers. . .infact, I would say its worth more then an AC Munin. . .
Arti Munins are really good for killing interceptors. If you get the transversal right and the local Huggin/Rapier is doing its job - you will find yourself doing well in KM stealing. Outside of this small function - the Munin just looks good - which is enough considering what the Vega looks like. ----
GO BLUE!! |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing
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Posted - 2008.09.28 21:51:00 -
[25]
ONLY ships that can defeat a good ruppy set-up are the cruisers that have a tank bonus.
Maller and Moa. Fully t2 fits for these are tough nuts to crack and since you usually have a buffer fit, they can absorb that massive DPS and chip away at you eventually.
Caracal at long range can also mess you up, but of course you can just warp away.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.29 00:52:00 -
[26]
TBH the AC Muninn is pretty fail. You want a Rupture or Vaga for that job. The only task that the Muninn really excels at is shooting frigs in a gatecamp (and it does this almost as well as a Hurricane!).
-Liang --
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.09.29 01:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH the AC Muninn is pretty fail. You want a Rupture or Vaga for that job. The only task that the Muninn really excels at is shooting frigs in a gatecamp (and it does this almost as well as a Hurricane!).
-Liang
but the ac munin can fit 5 425mms to the ruptures 4 220mms, and gets pwnage em/therm resists
hmmm, might as well just fly a cane though, munin does less damage, has a lower buffer, doesn't insure for as much, but it has a weebit more agility and higher speed!
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.29 01:41:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/09/2008 01:44:22
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
but the ac munin can fit 5 425mms to the ruptures 4 220mms, and gets pwnage em/therm resists
hmmm, might as well just fly a cane though, munin does less damage, has a lower buffer, doesn't insure for as much, but it has a weebit more agility and higher speed!
The important bit is three mids. Hail M's all but useless without at least two webs - and that's before the web nerf. If you're going to fly a failship, might as well fly a cheap one (hence the Rupture comment).
-Liang
Ed: Also, T2 Minnie armor resists rather suck, which puts armor tanking it out of the question (IMO). Meh, I've tried the AC Muninn and I was vastly underwhelmed with it.
IIRC, it has an advantage in damage over the Vaga if you only have HAC4 though... if you can get close enough and live long enough to take advantage of it. --
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6Bagheera9
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.29 03:14:00 -
[29]
AC Munnin is fail, even with arties its kinda meh. AC Rupture however is pure win. You get it all; good DPS, full tackle, good buffer, and its quick to boot. Fitting it is also quite easy.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.29 03:29:00 -
[30]
Thing is:
AC Munnin is fail. It's fail compared to a Vagabond (lack of range). It's fail compared to a AC Hurricane (which will chew it up and spit it out, every time, with a big EHP advantage, big DPS advantage and a extra mid and given Hurricanes are often fit with 3 falloff rigs which the Munnin just cannot match, range advantage). It's somewhat better then a AC Rupture, but the advantage is so marginally small it's not worth paying for.
As for arty Munnins - if the somewhat better mobility then a Hurricane is not absolutely essential for what you're trying to do, you can do a generally better job in a Hurricane thanks to the fact you get three slots (1 mid, 1 low, one rig) over a Munnin on top of a extra gun. The fact that a 'specialized' mid-range HAC is generally matched or outclassed by the respective T2 BC at what it's supposed to be good at says a whole lot.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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