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Author	Topic
Daelin Blackleaf The Reclaimed	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:17:00 - [61] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 16/08/2008 00:21:52 Yes, it's kind of disappointing when we're asked for feedback, provide it, and don't get any real interaction from the Devs. Worse is the fact that we're testing and speculating without knowing just what it is CCP want. It's difficult to give feedback when you can only see a small part of the big picture, not knowing what other changes may soon be incoming, harder still when you often aren't told what the changes are supposed to achieve. [EDIT: Even if the gagging orders aren't called off couldn't someone at least update the In Testing and In Development pages occasionally so that we have some idea of where the game is going? Playing "Hunt the Changes" on SiSi isn't much fun.]
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:27:00 - [62] Originally by: The Wounded All we want is EVE-TV back, like a monthly edition or so, not only when theres a tournament. /signed. Moar SpiralJunkie, tbqh.
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.08.16 01:06:00 - [63] Originally by: CCP RyanD ~~EVE~~ LAG hit a high water mark ~~for subs~~ this month and continues to grow nicely. Fixed that for you. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.16 01:36:00 - [64] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 16/08/2008 01:38:09 Originally by: CCP RyanD Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:53:18 Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:49:04 I want respond in depth but can't ATM. 2 things: EVE hit a high water mark for subs this month and continues to grow nicely. Most EVE devs read these forums regularly. They are trained not to respond unless they actually are responsible for the topic, and they have something constructive AND finalized to say. Every time a dev speculates in public an angel dies. So we ask them not to do that. :) More later. RyanD I wonder if this has something to do with the fact that any time a developer posts anywhere on the forums, the community feels the collective need to cough up 50 tons of verbal diarrhea laced with vitriol and ignorance... such as the glistening examples which follow RyanD's post.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.08.16 02:28:00 - [65] Originally by: CCP RyanD Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:53:18 Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:49:04 I want respond in depth but can't ATM. 2 things: EVE hit a high water mark for subs this month and continues to grow nicely. Most EVE devs read these forums regularly. They are trained not to respond unless they actually are responsible for the topic, and they have something constructive AND finalized to say. Every time a dev speculates in public an angel dies. So we ask them not to do that. :) More later. RyanD What a disasterous policy. C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.08.16 03:58:00 - [66] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: CCP RyanD Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:53:18 Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:49:04 I want respond in depth but can't ATM. 2 things: EVE hit a high water mark for subs this month and continues to grow nicely. Most EVE devs read these forums regularly. They are trained not to respond unless they actually are responsible for the topic, and they have something constructive AND finalized to say. Every time a dev speculates in public an angel dies. So we ask them not to do that. :) More later. RyanD What a disasterous policy. C. it's clearly working out terribly. hardly anyone left. - -
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:01:00 - [67] The Dev Posting policy is a direct response to the collective actions of the players. Don't try to put the blame anywhere else, it is on us.
Trathen Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:16:00 - [68] Maybe this is a good time to pitch my patented "We're working on it"Ö forum response bot. It may be obvious but its exactly what they want to hear! _

CCP RyanD Caldari C C P	Posted - 2008.08.16 19:45:00 - [69] Ok, grabbed a few minutes from my GenCon panel schedule to write a bit more. We are going to continue to ask our Devs to interact with the players regularly, and with the kind of lead times needed to have player feedback affect design decisions, just like we always have. But CCP is growing and changing, and in order to make that communication fruitful, we need to channel it productively. Even just a short while ago CCP was a fairly small organization, and most of the devs were generalists. Everyone had a little bit to do with just about ever facet of the project and most of the Devs could comment helpfully on almost any topic. As CCP has grown, we're becoming an organization of specialists which means that the Devs are focusing their attention on more narrow ranges of the game. Consequently, they need to also focus their interactions with the players to match their specialties. It's too easy for people to misinterpret speculation from a Dev as writ in stone committments, and CCP wants to be known as an organization that keeps its promises. At the same time that this specialization is happening, we are also deepening our bench. We're bringing in people from all over the world who have unique and special talents to contribute to EVE - which means that some roles that were once filled by public and familiar Devs are now handled by people who are fairly new to the organization and haven't had time to make themselves well known. Over time that will change, but we can't replace 5 years of steady incremental social networking overnight. And some of those familiar Devs have stepped up and taken on expanded management roles within CCP which means they are incredibly busy helping to add features, address problems, and plan for the future, and that means that they just can't be interactive on the forums like they did in the past. But many of them can and do follow the threads and the ebb and flow of the conversation and they do pay attention to what the fans are saying. The volume of messages any controverial topic generates means that it is impossible for everyone who writes to get a personalized response, but I assure you that when we ask for feedback, that feedback gets read. (And often more than read, it gets passed around the office, and critical design decisions are made after considering it). Likewise, not all feedback is useful to us even if it is thoughtful - it may be something we end up factoring in to a different decision at a different date. So please, please please don't stop providing feedback even if we don't acknowledge it individually. We are listening and we really do care. General Discussion is in our opinion much more a place for you, the players, to interact with each other, as opposed to a place for us to communicate specifics. We want to use our Dev Blog system for broadcast messages, because we know that they have a much much higher readership and visibily than a response 3 pages deep into a GD message thread. Typically, the responses you'll see on General Discussion are going to be conversational, or perhaps error corrections or commentary from the Community Management team (and other Devs as the need strikes them), but policy details will come in the blog format in general. You're likely to see a higher level of interactivity in the development forums. That's where the game designers are focusing a lot of their attention trying to process all the different feedback and suggestions, but even there, you're going to get a different kind of dialog - big changes and policies will be in blogs, or responses to blogs, whereas questions, commentary, speculation and et cetera will show up in the threads directly. We also encourage you to come to FanFest. At FanFest we have lots of opportunities for direct dialog with the Devs or 1:many presentations on long term plans like dealing with lag, handling blob warfare, walking in stations, etc. So keep talking, we're listening! RyanD


CCP RyanD Caldari C C P	Posted - 2008.08.16 20:00:00 - [70] I also want to say a few things about the CSM. The point of the CSM is to start taking steps towards player governance. That does not mean players making decisions about EVE (that's CCP's job), but it does mean beginning a transition towards having mechanisms of social relevance to deal with the kinds of problems that will occur in any sufficiently large and complex community. In addition, and likely just as valuable, the CSM also serves the critical role of helping us focus attention on issues that are widely important to a large cross section of the players, not just those with lots of alts who post in series on a given topic. The message boards are not a good slice to determine deep trends (although they do have their place) because those people who use the message boards are not always in tune with what the whole community is thinking and feeling. The CSM can help with this by helping to ensure that the most important stuff is formally acknowledged. Often we already know what some of those issues are before they are raised - that's not a problem. If only one or two things a session get visibility that we had underestimated or missed, a big service will have been rendered to CCP and to the players. We are in somewhat unexplored territory. Nobody knows the best way to self-organize a participatory democracy in a community of global, anonymous players of a virtual world. So when we set up the CSM, we intentionally left many areas of their directives vague so that the CSM itself can help define its own role. The fact that his is being done in public, with all the ups and downs visible to everyone, is a feature, not a bug. Benjamin Franklin once said that nobody should watch either sausage or law being made. Politics is the art of compromise. Sometimes it takes time to figure out where the compromise is needed, and to create the pressure on the politicians to make a compromise. If anything, I would say that in my opinion the CSM is actually ahead of my expectations in terms of finding its way through this process. Even if it takes years, including setbacks, the effort is still really valuable to both us and to the players. Detractors of the process, or the concept, are unhelpful. Getting involved - either in running for a CSM seat or volunteering to help the CSM do its business, or in providing constructive commentary and criticism to the CSM, is very helpful. I said some time ago that a lot of people would tend to dismiss (or ignore) the CSM, until that day when something happens that creates an opportunity for the CSM to make a critical decision with wide reaching ramifications, and on that day, suddenly the CSM will become a vital and important thing to a vastly expanded number of peoople. We have not yet had such a moment, and so understandably the CSM remains the concern of a fairly small population - but even so it is doing valuable work and we absolutely consider its progress a success so far. So I guess my overall suggestion with regard to people interacting with the CSM is stop tearing it and them down, and start building it up. Become a part of the solution, not the problem. RyanD


Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.16 20:01:00 - [71] Edited by: Lance Fighter on 16/08/2008 20:01:50 1 <3 ccp responses like that. edit. Oh wait a second one reads that
QwaarJet Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.16 20:06:00 - [72] 2 long posts that say so much, yet say so little. This thread was created to talk about the issue of the alliance tournament, and yet no CCP response has even mentioned it. Considering how much I love taking part in the tournament, I really need to know what is going on, so me and my team can plan accordingly.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.16 20:11:00 - [73] Originally by: CCP RyanD I also want to say a few things about the CSM. RyanD Thanks for the response Ryan. I fully understand that things are changing in CCP. That's all fine and that. But I just want to make sure that you guys are going to improve on your communication with the community. The CSM, as per Noah's suggestion in an article, should deal with larger issues, preferably, instead of small questions. While it doesn't mean that CSM should take a hands-off approach to that kind of things, I think it's for our mutual benefit that simple questions doesn't have to go trough so many loops. It was suggested by a guy, that the CSm should get a better feedback cycle on certain things, like if the alliance tournament is dead. I think this is a reasonable idea. So I'm wondering what you think about how to improve the communication channel. Are you guys interested in maybe handing us over a contact person, we can place questions with on a (bi-)weekly basis, in order to get answers for simple questions, rather than it having to be a 2-month cycle? Thanks for taking out your time from Gencon to answer this. Much appreciated.
Cheap Dude	Posted - 2008.08.16 23:07:00 - [74] Edited by: Cheap Dude on 16/08/2008 23:08:37 Quote: Even just a short while ago CCP was a fairly small organization, and most of the devs were generalists. Everyone had a little bit to do with just about ever facet of the project and most of the Devs could comment helpfully on almost any topic. As CCP has grown, we're becoming an organization of specialists which means that the Devs are focusing their attention on more narrow ranges of the game. Consequently, they need to also focus their interactions with the players to match their specialties. I do understand that bigger companies are ran different but at the same time the product does reflect the changes within the company. The last expansions (and some future ones we know) are much more catering the PR of CCP to bring in new players then keeping the current players happy. The game was designed by a group of people who had a vision about their game and made it, today that dream is gone and replaced by a dream about more subscriptions. The game and future expansions (we know about) are reflecting this. Graphics upgrade sells, Faction Warfare sells, Ambulation sells. What does not sell is changing and expanding existings things. Be honnest CCP and look at the future expansion list, the direction of the game which is already laid out, and tell me which topics gets on the 'do-list' and what doesn't? Being an industrialist I was hoping for an expansion to expand the industrial part of EVE, but even an industrial ship, the Orca, takes more then a year to create and there isn't even an ETA! While I am convinced CCP is able to bring more players into EVE your current playerbase is crying for some attention other then buff/nerf nr. 144! I hope CCP is going to prove me wrong, really....
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.08.17 01:45:00 - [75] To be honest, I think CCP would get a far better idea of the view of the community if they hired someone to act as nothing more than a filter for things floating round the forums, whether they be new ideas, comments on old ideas, or whatever. That way, at the end of each week when you guys start to chill back before the weekend, you can all sit round the office with your beers on Friday afternoon and go through a compiled list by this guy, talking it through yourselves. For example how often a 'let us skin our ships' thread starts, or a 'the UI sucks, here are some suggestions' thread starts. I honestly think CCP see these threads the same as the players do 'oh no, another one on this, I'll not even read it because I know what it'll say' instead of how they should be looking at it of 'hmm, yet more support for this idea, this is becoming a really frequently requested feature'. You could compile all these things yourselves. I'm not the first to think this, but I thought I'd bring it up. I will add, however, that sometimes CCP are very good at seeing too high a level of the game, to the extent that certan complaints or ideas are washed out for technical or idealogical reasons where there is massive support or requests for features put in place. As LaVista has been saying, that's where the CSM should come in - these issues need to be taken somewhere that CCP recognise, so if the CSM go 'oi! what's this?' then CCP should really think 'hmm, maybe we need to look at this in depth' instead of dismissing it out of hand. By using both levels allows a tally so to speak of the little issues, which could then be dealt with quicker and easier as they gain popularity or frequency, which would leave the Assembly Hall (for instance) fairly empty except for the big issues. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Trathen Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.17 03:34:00 - [76] Originally by: CCP RyanD The point of the CSM is to start taking steps towards player governance. That does not mean players making decisions about EVE (that's CCP's job), but it does mean beginning a transition towards having mechanisms of social relevance to deal with the kinds of problems that will occur in any sufficiently large and complex community. I find this the oddest statement and exemplary of previous statements regarding CSM: CCP has never actually cleary stated the purpose of CSM. It is usually some odd abstraction about how its just so hard to figure out what people want. Just say it, you'll feel better: "We hoped CSM would shut people up." _
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2008.08.17 03:51:00 - [77] The more devs that are specializing the more there is a need for the chief of devs to keep an eye on everything and make comprehensive devblogs about the general development of eve, like Oveur used to do.
Kern Hotha	Posted - 2008.08.17 04:26:00 - [78] Originally by: CCP RyanD I also want to say a few things about the CSM. RyanD I don't trust anonymous people on the internet (e.g. CSM) to do the right things. The monthly subscription fee that we pay to CCP should include professional management of CCP's product. CCP employees get paid to work on this game; they should be able to identify important issues. We should be able to trust that CCP employees won't cheat, but experience has shown that CCP employees do cheat and don't get punished properly. The only useful thing that the CSM could do would be oversight of CCP employees playing the game. That's obviously not happening, so it's a waste of time.
Kushion Anti Sweden Defense Force Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.08.17 04:37:00 - [79] RyanD, Some excellent & well-thought out posts. ItÆs nice to see the reasoning behind the action, and your posts have succeeded in convincing me the reasoning is wise. Honestly, your first post (the part about dev posting) should be made into its own thread and stickied û then referred to when someone makes a, ôOMG WHY DEW CCP NOT POST IN MY NERF CALDARI THRAED ;(((((( OMG CCP IGNOER MEö type thread. In regards to LVÆs original post, I think what he was getting at is that there isnÆt much of a system for the community to interact with CCP in a question and answer format. For example, the rumor inspired by the recent dev blog about the PVP tourney ending; a lot of players are concerned about this, and would like an answer . However, getting a direct answer from CCP about anything can be a time consuming process û and TBH, there isnÆt even a process. The general theory seems to be that if you want an answer, you go about making a lot of angry threads about it in the hope that someone from CCP gets tired of it and finally responds. In reality, this doesnÆt seem to get much done, and the playerbase is stuck hoping that CCP will decide to make an announcement about it . Maybe they will announce it in a devblog û maybe. And that devblog, if it ever materialized, might be two years from now. ItÆs frustrating to know there is no real process involved to get answers, and that all answers are made at the sole discretion of CCP, at the time of their choosing. I can understand that some questions donÆt have a ready answer, .ie, ôwhat are you going to do about nanos.ö However, in a case like the PVP tourney, I donÆt think it would hurt to keep us in the loop. Are you going to cancel the PVP tourney, y/n ? Even if the players donÆt have a say in the final decision, they would feel better if informed. The CSM seemed like it was going to be one way of getting questions answered, but as LV said, there isnÆt really a streamlined process involved. In my opinion, having the CSM play a role in this function would go a long way towards making the playerbase feel empowered. No one likes being kept in the dark without any way (seemingly) to get answers. Anyway, thanks for posting, and thanks for taking the time for the ~~TLDR~~ comprehensive posts. ;) -- Taggart Transdimensional corporation - \| Capitalism \| Objectivism \| 0.0 \| No taxes \| No mandatory ops \| Join channel TAGGART for more
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.17 06:04:00 - [80] I'd still like to re-iterate, it'd be nice to get just a few more replies in Features and Ideas forum. Often a lot of gameplay ideas and balance ideas get shifted to there from Game Development forum because they aren't strictly bug fixing or related to the latest release. These are none the less useful as the game changes over time, and devs might not realise something has cropped up on some previously fine mechanic or element of gameplay Though a lot of it is also wild speculation as well :) _______ People like that don't have friends just temporary common interests.

Angelic Orange Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.17 06:49:00 - [81] Originally by: LaVista Vista I'm personally a big fan of EVETV's coverage of the alliance tournament. It's a great event and does for great socialization inside the community. People have asked me several times "What is happening to the alliance tournament?", but the answer always is "I don't know.". I always wanted to raise it for the CSM, but I have held off due to a simple thing: It's a waste of CSM's time. The recent dev-blog, wanting to remove the alliance tournament forum, has created tons of speculation. No CCP answer though. So I just commented on a well-raised issue over at the CSM forum, about the alliance tournament. Now comes the emo-part of my post, and I shall make it short: CCP, if you want CSM to work, don't just sit back and NOT answer any community issues based on your own initiative(They do answer SOME things, but they also seem blissfully ignorant in most cases). I guess CSM will raise about certain things, if you guys don't take initiative to answer the community. But in that case, large changes will need to be done to the CSM for us to even matter in these cases. </emo> tl;dr: CCP needs not to rely on CSM for asking questions. They need to listen to the community on large. Anything else is a waste of everybody's time. The CSM doesn't matter, so what is your point again?
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.17 08:16:00 - [82] A understandable and reasonable policy RyanD. There is simply no reason to answer fools and people delusional about their own self importance as they will always complain, no matter what you answer them with. You just focus on developing YOUR game, they we can decide if we want to pay for it or not. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Daelin Blackleaf The Reclaimed	Posted - 2008.08.17 13:27:00 - [83] Originally by: CCP RyanD Consequently, they need to also focus their interactions with the players to match their specialties. Why do we have more specialists able to focus on less topics and yet fewer responses? Originally by: CCP RyanD It's too easy for people to misinterpret speculation from a Dev as writ in stone committments, and CCP wants to be known as an organization that keeps its promises. Then don't promise anything. This is the equivalent of not talking to your spouse to avoid an argument. There wouldn't be so much drama and reading between the lines when we get an official response if we got them more frequently. The quieter you are the quieter you feel you have to be and the more deeply and seriously people consider your words. It's all become far too serious. Originally by: CCP RyanD we can't replace 5 years of steady incremental social networking overnight. Most of the forum users here haven't been around for 5 years either. Originally by: CCP RyanD The volume of messages any controverial topic generates means that it is impossible for everyone who writes to get a personalized response, but I assure you that when we ask for feedback, that feedback gets read. (And often more than read, it gets passed around the office, and critical design decisions are made after considering it). Likewise, not all feedback is useful to us even if it is thoughtful - it may be something we end up factoring in to a different decision at a different date. So please, please please don't stop providing feedback even if we don't acknowledge it individually. We are listening and we really do care. You often don't acknowledge it generally either, or provide pointers such as "This is impossible because of x" "This doesn't fit in because of y" "We have a similar idea in development" "We don't want this change to effect z" or, perhaps most importantly, "This is intended". Even the Dev Blogs sometimes fail to show the intent behind a change, and we frequently have to go months between Dev Blogs on game design. Just a "Hey guys, we've noticed an issue with Widgets and we've come up with some solutions, see any flaws? Have any better ideas?" would make the community feel much more involved and reduce the opinion that CCP changes are largely set in stone before they hit the test server. Originally by: CCP RyanD Typically, the responses you'll see on General Discussion are going to be conversational, or perhaps error corrections or commentary from the Community Management team (and other Devs as the need strikes them), but policy details will come in the blog format in general. That's not a problem, it's the lack of responses in the Development Forum, Features and Ideas, and the Tech Lab that is of concern. That and the general feeling that development of the game has become one big secret. Not delivering a feature in some timeframe you didn't even state is not breaking a promise, most of us are happy just to now your working on it. Originally by: CCP RyanD You're likely to see a higher level of interactivity in the development forums. That's where the game designers are focusing a lot of their attention trying to process all the different feedback and suggestions, but even there, you're going to get a different kind of dialog - big changes and policies will be in blogs, or responses to blogs, whereas questions, commentary, speculation and et cetera will show up in the threads directly. But that's exactly what we're not getting. We need feedback on our feedback and suggestions or veto's on our suggestions. Not every post of course, but take a wade through the poorly moderated mess that is the main speed change thread in the Dev section and tell me that the lack of Developer feedback isn't disheartening to the community. Originally by: CCP RyanD So keep talking, we're listening! Right back at ya.
Manxome NOXX	Posted - 2008.08.19 14:44:00 - [84] Edited by: Manxome NOXX on 19/08/2008 14:44:49
Damion Zyne Des Esseintes Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.19 16:31:00 - [85] Any chance to get the "Alliance Championship" specialist at CCP to look at the soon to be erased Eve TV forum and give a simple "Yes", "No" or "Soon" answer about another championship ?
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:32:00 - [86] Nice response by ryanD, but I think he missed the point with that cannonball of a post. What we really want to see is thigs like the dev finder, dev blog, in development page, in testing page, and the long term planning page especially, being updated frequently, even if its just to spark player comments about ideas that may never come to fruition. Not only will there be an enormous psychological benefit to players from seeing the Dev's publicly working, but the dev team can use some of these resources to gather comments on dev subjects (like the speed nerf) before they jump into a dev blog and make everybody flip out. That would be a much more sane and civilized way to do things, and this thread is asking CCP to step up and do that.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:06:00 - [87] Checked today. Still no changes. No one knows what CCP is doing. Wasnt there a dev blog on communication? I'll have to dig out some broken promises from that one... Seriously, just please communicate with us! Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.25 03:00:00 - [88] Originally by: Synapse Archae If CCP could do a dozen dev blogs in a month in 2003 when they had 40 people, how come they only manage 2 this month when they have over 100 people? This is what really bugs me about it all. Having more employees doesn't mean you have to take on a corporate attitude, lose everything that made CCP special, and become just another company. We wouldn't be disappointed if we didn't know you can do better.
Tradealt one	Posted - 2008.08.25 03:03:00 - [89] Who ever said those people were working on EVE? A lot of effort is going into the new MMO.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:46:00 - [90] Originally by: Tradealt one Who ever said those people were working on EVE? A lot of effort is going into the new MMO. That doesn't even begin to explain why there are fewer dev blogs today than 2003 or 2004. There are certainly not fewer people working on eve today. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.

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