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Author	Topic
Dyvim Slorm Relentless Storm Cartel	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:50:00 - [31] Depends on how you define "Eve Community", hopefully not these forums. Many of the forums have degraded to the point where most of the posts consists of trolling, flamebait or alt created pointless messages, drowning out any of the more constructive ideas. Why would CCP bother to look, I doubt if a large part of the playerbase do. Perhaps a tightly moderated forum might help but I wouldn't envy the poor mod that got that job.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Dyvim Slorm Depends on how you define "Eve Community", hopefully not these forums. Many of the forums have degraded to the point where most of the posts consists of trolling, flamebait or alt created pointless messages, drowning out any of the more constructive ideas. Why would CCP bother to look, I doubt if a large part of the playerbase do. Perhaps a tightly moderated forum might help but I wouldn't envy the poor mod that got that job. So if the current forum is populated by a minority of the EVE populace, why would a new forum help with the problem? You'll only get the following people participating: People who care = (a percentage of the vocal minority, which are a percentage of the people who even read the forums, which are a percentage of the people who subscribe to EVE) - (the trolls, which are a percentage of the preceeding) warp drive active \| nature vraie
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:40:00 - [33] just out of curiosity, if all CCP communication is to be done through CSM, or random dev blogs, why are there Community Managers (Wrangler, Pann & Co) employed by CCP? What is their job function? not pointing a finger here, just wondering...
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:44:00 - [34] Edited by: Verite Rendition on 14/08/2008 17:44:04 Originally by: Chribba O Oveur Where Art Thou?! We miss you! O Kieron Where ARt Thou?! We miss you! (Ok we know where you are) O Garthagk Where Art Thou?! We miss you! (Ok you quit) the list can go on... But really, I agree to a certain extent, at some point earlier, for some reason CCP officials went quiet. I understand why with things happened in the past. But still, there need to be other ways of communication to be available. CSM is a step, we just need to make it work as well. I really hope it will work. Go CCP Go! We love you long time! I think the issue really comes down to the fact that EVE has peaked as we've been expecting for the past year. 5 years tends to be the upper range for a MMO (unless you're Warcraft) and it has finally caught up with EVE. The population will hold relatively steady through the end of the year, and probably start the slow decline next year as players begin to trickle away. The game will easily continue for another 4+ years, but the player population will never experience a significant spurt of growth ever again. This is not to say that there's anything wrong with EVE, it's just that it's old. People grow tired of the same thing, they seek entirely new things to do. What is there left to do in EVE that hasn't already been done? And if you're a new player, why do you want to come to a game where everyone is 5 years ahead of you? Games (both normal and MMO) come and go, it's the natural order of things. And why is CCP so quiet? At this point what's their impetus to further develop the game? As long as the player base is growing it makes sense to keep the game in full development, but once it stops growing you'll never make as much money on a new batch of content compared to the last batch of content. CCP is a company, they're out to make a profit; once the player base starts shrinking, it's time to stop active development. You throw it in to maintenance mode to fix bugs and produce smaller batches of new content (read: cheaper) to keep your existing customers around longer, but it's no longer appropriate to undertake massive development projects against diminishing returns. What major work is still being done on EVE is really for World of Darkness. Ambulation and Infiniband are things that need to be done for WoD anyhow, and in the mean time they can be tested on EVE as a cost-savings measure by reducing redundancy. CCP's primary development focus is going to be on making new money, and that means developing WoD. And if you're no longer working on EVE, are you going to be upfront and tell the players that? Not if you want to keep them. You string them along, in whatever way will keep the most while costing the least. Anyhow, like I said there's nothing wrong with EVE, it's just that it has peaked. CCP is busy preparing World of Darkness, so they're not going to be around to say much, nor are they going to have much to say. You'll never bring back what you had, you can only make the best of what you have left.
Judge Ment Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:54:00 - [35] Originally by: Verite Rendition Edited by: Verite Rendition on 14/08/2008 17:44:04 Originally by: Chribba O Oveur Where Art Thou?! We miss you! O Kieron Where ARt Thou?! We miss you! (Ok we know where you are) O Garthagk Where Art Thou?! We miss you! (Ok you quit) the list can go on... But really, I agree to a certain extent, at some point earlier, for some reason CCP officials went quiet. I understand why with things happened in the past. But still, there need to be other ways of communication to be available. CSM is a step, we just need to make it work as well. I really hope it will work. Go CCP Go! We love you long time! I think the issue really comes down to the fact that EVE has peaked as we've been expecting for the past year. 5 years tends to be the upper range for a MMO (unless you're Warcraft) and it has finally caught up with EVE. The population will hold relatively steady through the end of the year, and probably start the slow decline next year as players begin to trickle away. The game will easily continue for another 4+ years, but the player population will never experience a significant spurt of growth ever again. This is not to say that there's anything wrong with EVE, it's just that it's old. People grow tired of the same thing, they seek entirely new things to do. What is there left to do in EVE that hasn't already been done? And if you're a new player, why do you want to come to a game where everyone is 5 years ahead of you? Games (both normal and MMO) come and go, it's the natural order of things. And why is CCP so quiet? At this point what's their impetus to further develop the game? As long as the player base is growing it makes sense to keep the game in full development, but once it stops growing you'll never make as much money on a new batch of content compared to the last batch of content. CCP is a company, they're out to make a profit; once the player base starts shrinking, it's time to stop active development. You throw it in to maintenance mode to fix bugs and produce smaller batches of new content (read: cheaper) to keep your existing customers around longer, but it's no longer appropriate to undertake massive development projects against diminishing returns. What major work is still being done on EVE is really for World of Darkness. Ambulation and Infiniband are things that need to be done for WoD anyhow, and in the mean time they can be tested on EVE as a cost-savings measure by reducing redundancy. CCP's primary development focus is going to be on making new money, and that means developing WoD. And if you're no longer working on EVE, are you going to be upfront and tell the players that? Not if you want to keep them. You string them along, in whatever way will keep the most while costing the least. Anyhow, like I said there's nothing wrong with EVE, it's just that it has peaked. CCP is busy preparing World of Darkness, so they're not going to be around to say much, nor are they going to have much to say. You'll never bring back what you had, you can only make the best of what you have left. I'd have agree with OP Here. Most American Game Publisher (Turbine case in point) Peak. This isn't something new to MMO. After all it's easer to nerf and call it a (complete job) then it is to make new pieces to add to already cluster database. Sad this is EVE is beautiful game and the idea behind it is great. No other MMO (Publisher) would attempt everyone on one server!
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.14 18:24:00 - [36] Originally by: LaVista Vista CCP, if you want CSM to work, don't just sit back and NOT answer any community issues based on your own initiative(They do answer SOME things, but they also seem blissfully ignorant in most cases). I guess CSM will raise about certain things, if you guys don't take initiative to answer the community. But in that case, large changes will need to be done to the CSM for us to even matter in these cases. Is this a message to CCP or to the community? I'd have sent them a letter, might have reached them without having to disclose your feelings in this public setting... just saying. San Matari Official forums
Queen Killerz Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.14 18:27:00 - [37] This is shenanigans - just disband as a group
Corduroy Rab Xenocidal Uprising	Posted - 2008.08.14 19:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Winterblink The why of it is no mystery, Chribba. You've been active in these forums forever too, definitely long enough to know why. Yep I know. I just find it sad it took the turn it took Sorry for the interruption guys, and sorry LV for side tracking this a bit. I have been watching the forum for a while now, obviously not even close to as long as you two no doubt have been, and while I do have some ideas of what you are eluding to I am not totally certain. Would you mind enlightening me? Of course I completely understand if you would rather not, I have seen what pulling skeletons out of the closet can do on these forums.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.08.14 19:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Judge Ment I think the issue really comes down to the fact that EVE has peaked as we've been expecting for the past year. 5 years tends to be the upper range for a MMO (unless you're Warcraft) and it has finally caught up with EVE. The population will hold relatively steady through the end of the year, and probably start the slow decline next year as players begin to trickle away. The game will easily continue for another 4+ years, but the player population will never experience a significant spurt of growth ever again. I think you'll rue this particular crystal ball effort. C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
Alz Shado Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.08.14 21:35:00 - [40] Originally by: Cailais I think you'll rue this particular crystal ball effort. Fixed for levity in an otherwise depressing thread. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand

Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.14 21:43:00 - [41] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker CSMs have more heavier questions to work on then a single question about if the tournament will be held again. Yes like forcing the implementation of trombone playing in ambulation SKUNK
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.14 22:13:00 - [42] Originally by: Le Skunk Yes like forcing the implementation of trombone playing in ambulation Surely you must appreciate the irony of that, given the trombone is a key component in playing the Price is Right lose theme. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.14 22:35:00 - [43] Has CCP said that they are not doing anymore Alliance tournaments? No. Are a bunch of forum *****s and low-lifes trying to rabble-rouse? Why, that is what it looks like yes. Why keep a forum about a tournament that ended months ago active? Especially after axing EVE-TV, the forum is quite pointless. Makes sense to delete that forum and make a new one when Alliance tournament VI comes out. No offense, but if you think that deleting last years alliance forum means no more alliance tournaments ever, then you are dumb, dumb dumb dumb. Instead of answering extremely idiotic "[ISSUES]" CCP should answer the important ones, like their next speed dev blog that is coming soon and updating the in testing and in develeopment pages. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Xanja 2H Industries	Posted - 2008.08.15 04:24:00 - [44] So I take it, you the CSM members are not in regular (two-way) communication with CCP? Do you guys have a CCP liaison dude or something? -----------------
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.15 05:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Xanja So I take it, you the CSM members are not in regular (two-way) communication with CCP? Do you guys have a CCP liaison dude or something? No, the CSM doesn't have regular communication with CCP beyond on CSM matters. We do have two-way communication with CCP Xhagen, who is the CSM dude at CCP, but he is not the guy to talk to on these kind of matters really, beyond purely getting a message to the CCP guys, which he is good at.
Jodie Amille Sadist Faction	Posted - 2008.08.15 06:08:00 - [46] I really hate to derail this thread, but why isn't the CSM bringing up the very real problems with minmatar battleships and capitals(naglfar at least) and artillery in general to CCP? There are threads about capitals(the problems with the Nag can be transferred to battleships) and 1400's(same issues as all other artillery) already in the issue list in the assembly hall.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.15 06:24:00 - [47] Originally by: Corduroy Rab Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Winterblink The why of it is no mystery, Chribba. You've been active in these forums forever too, definitely long enough to know why. Yep I know. I just find it sad it took the turn it took Sorry for the interruption guys, and sorry LV for side tracking this a bit. I have been watching the forum for a while now, obviously not even close to as long as you two no doubt have been, and while I do have some ideas of what you are eluding to I am not totally certain. Would you mind enlightening me? Of course I completely understand if you would rather not, I have seen what pulling skeletons out of the closet can do on these forums. I'm guessing, and I can't vouch for Chribba, that they're referring to the way the devs, particularly Oveur and TomB, used to post frequently on the boards. Plus they used to release fairly regular blogs, particularly during the Band of Bloggers era. They weren't even necessarily game-related. TomB posted a very insightful blog about his MMOG resume, beginning with the original CCP devs' start in UO. That really said it all about what Eve was supposed to be about. Now, we have a lot of new devs who weren't around in the early days when Eve was grasping at straws for players and relied on its communication with the playerbase for everything. It was a young, distrusting game, and the devs really put their hearts into interacting with their players so that they could soothe over the problems we encountered. There was real sense that their next paycheck depended on us being happy and continuing to play the game. So they were very vociferous on the boards. Now it seems to have come to the point that the current devs are just employees, and they'll get their paycheck no matter what. So they're not as eager to respond to every query as they once were. Some of this comes down to scale. Back in the day, Eve was small, and there wasn't much going on, sort of like how DOS used to fit on a few floppy discs, but now it needs a DVD. So the devs could handle all the problems (sort of) and still spend time on the boards. Now they have more issues than they can handle, so they don't have the time to write replies and blogs. Also there's the growing troll menace. If all you're going to do is get flamed for posting any remark, why bother? Finally, there's the changing of the devs' focus. What once seemed to pressing issues were overrun by what the players wanted. What the devs thought was important didn't match up to the desires of the players. This is how we got Alliances. So they can get a bit lost with where their attention should be focused. So there's been a definite decline in posting, but who can necessarily blame them. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Prof Patpending Warp badgers with guns	Posted - 2008.08.15 06:27:00 - [48] So to sum up. The CSM is a massive gimmick in which CCP pretends to care what you think, gives you a free trip to Iceland and then goes back reading The Vision and nerfing content.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.15 07:12:00 - [49] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: LaVista Vista They need to listen to the community on large. Ugh, I wouldn't entirely agree with that. So CCP should simply not listen to the community, but just CSM? I beg to differ tbh. CSM shouldn't be the only mean of communication. While it should be their primarily focus on development, they shouldn't ignore the questions of the community. Especially not on such trivial matters as this is(Of course there could be several variables which CCP has to think about, before they can comment. But at least tell us you are working on it, then) Point. I guess I don't fully agree, but I don't fully disagree. I do like it when they answer questions. Indeed, on one of the Live Dev Blogs (remember those?) I asked them why Faction F.o.F. missiles were suddenly removed without warning from the LP stores in a ham handed fashion that prevented them being sold on the markets or traded by contracts - I was told it'd be answered in another L.D.B. or in the regular D.B. itself. Though to my knowledge, it never was and the problem probably still remains ... Anyway, I suppose it isn't that I don't like them listening to questions. I'm more uncomfortable with them asking questions and then seriously listening to all the answers they get. Or, listening to the answers they get without asking any questions first, if you catch my drift. While there have been quite a few times I've thought CCP have engaged in some serious mishandling, generally I think they have a better idea of how things should be done than most potential petitioners. My interpretation of the forums is that they're not really a reliable source of feedback for the majority of EVE and are essentially unrepresentative but that is just my own interpretation and I accept I could easily be wrong in that. I do (in general) appreciate the CSM + members.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.15 07:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker CSMs have more heavier questions to work on then a single question about if the tournament will be held again. Yes like forcing the implementation of trombone playing in ambulation SKUNK You left out enhanced bio length. What sort of vampire will YOU be? "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA

Arric Rohr Gallente Intergalactic Science LLC	Posted - 2008.08.15 08:10:00 - [51] Edited by: Arric Rohr on 15/08/2008 08:10:38 I've been playing for over 2 years. I'd have to say the game has not gotten a lot better in that time, and some things have gotten much worse. The childish behavior exhibited on the forums, and in many cases in the game, really makes it sometimes not fun to participate. I've quit twice, but keep coming back because none of the other MMO's are as compelling, yet. That may change, with War and maybe Star Trek Online. But even if it doesn't, unless EvE changes radically I can't see it continuing as a going concern for a whole lot longer. The Devs do seem less interested, both in their lack of activity on the forums (who can blame them, these forums are awful) and in the hurried nature of the fixes applied to the game. Even the last couple of patches, while pretty, haven't added too much in real content. And so many issues are being left unfixed, small and large, you have to wonder. Sorry I'm rambling, its 1 am, but I do like this game and its decline is sad. AR Where do I get one of those cool signatures?
Drolus	Posted - 2008.08.15 08:30:00 - [52] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Xanja So I take it, you the CSM members are not in regular (two-way) communication with CCP? Do you guys have a CCP liaison dude or something? No, the CSM doesn't have regular communication with CCP beyond on CSM matters. We do have two-way communication with CCP Xhagen, who is the CSM dude at CCP, but he is not the guy to talk to on these kind of matters really, beyond purely getting a message to the CCP guys, which he is good at.
fuze Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.15 13:16:00 - [53] I think I'm starting to have a clue what LV is saying here. CSM isn't an excuse for CCP to communicate less (or not at all) with the community. People still like to know what's going on otherwise they start making things up which might be totally untrue.
Dyvim Slorm Relentless Storm Cartel	Posted - 2008.08.15 13:56:00 - [54] Originally by: Winterblink So if the current forum is populated by a minority of the EVE populace, why would a new forum help with the problem? snip... I did say tightly moderated. We might well get more readers and ideas posted if they knew their posts were not going to be engulfed by flames/trolling etc.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.15 14:38:00 - [55] Originally by: fuze I think I'm starting to have a clue what LV is saying here. CSM isn't an excuse for CCP to communicate less (or not at all) with the community. People still like to know what's going on otherwise they start making things up which might be totally untrue. This man speaks the truth.

CCP RyanD Caldari C C P	Posted - 2008.08.15 20:47:00 - [56] Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:53:18 Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:49:04 I want respond in depth but can't ATM. 2 things: EVE hit a high water mark for subs this month and continues to grow nicely. Most EVE devs read these forums regularly. They are trained not to respond unless they actually are responsible for the topic, and they have something constructive AND finalized to say. Every time a dev speculates in public an angel dies. So we ask them not to do that. :) More later. RyanD

LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.15 21:04:00 - [57] Originally by: CCP RyanD 2 things: More later. RyanD Thanks for your response Ryan. But surely it's a kitty who dies, not an angel?
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.08.15 21:09:00 - [58] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: CCP RyanD 2 things: More later. RyanD Thanks for your response Ryan. But surely it's a kitty who dies, not an angel? Surely it's a hanging long limb not a kitty? ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"
Daelin Blackleaf The Reclaimed	Posted - 2008.08.15 22:49:00 - [59] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 15/08/2008 22:49:26 Originally by: CCP RyanD Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:53:18 Edited by: CCP RyanD on 15/08/2008 20:49:04 I want respond in depth but can't ATM. 2 things: EVE hit a high water mark for subs this month and continues to grow nicely. Most EVE devs read these forums regularly. They are trained not to respond unless they actually are responsible for the topic, and they have something constructive AND finalized to say. Every time a dev speculates in public an angel dies. So we ask them not to do that. :) More later. RyanD This is supposed to be a community and your supposed to be part of it. Just because a small vocal minority of forum members cannot handle CCP responses maturely doesn't mean you should all go hide behind the CSM only post a response when it's been put through the Vogon Bureaucracy. You should be able to speculate with us, give frequent two-way feedback, share ideas and concepts with us, and let us know what your working on even if there's a chance it'll get pushed back to 2050. So why are you being "trained not to respond" and whose grand idea is this wall of silence? Is this some new form of Community Management, where the company can't be blamed for delaying/canceling/changing features because no one knows of their existence until they're almost finalized? It's hard to say the devs are in touch with the community when they're not allowed to discuss things with us and it's going to get worse as people lose their faith in CCP because they're becoming "just another company". This kind of distancing will, over time, lead to hundreds of man-hours of work going to waste because some new change has a glaring flaw the community would have noticed in a heartbeat, but that no one could see until it hit SiSi. Or worse, not implementing a better idea because we're not privy to whats on "The Drawing Board" "In Development" and "In Testing" let alone able to discuss it with you. I wouldn't even be annoyed were it not for the fact that I know the Devs are capable of holding their own in here and the fact that a number of other gaming communities (Sins and X spring to mind) do very well with frequent customer-dev interaction. We know CCP can do better so go explain to the coward demanding you all hold your tongues that your big boys and girls and you won't ruin the company by being part of the community. [EDIT: And your both wrong it's a Furrier ]
Zikka Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.15 23:12:00 - [60] I agree Daelin. I know the devs get some stick on the forums but part of the reason for that is that their presence is so rare everyone is grasping at straws whenever they do appear. The changes on sisi are a case in point. Yes there were a lot of ranting threads but there were also a lot of very constructive ones. I took the time to go on and test, I even came back with a suggested proposal for fixing something. I didn't even get a 'yes we looked at that but we do/don't think its a problem'. Without feedback it feels like I'm wasting my time (whether you are reading it or not I have no way of knowing that) and frankly I have better things to do than waste my time. When posting a blog and a change and then specifically asking for feedback would it really be too much to expect a dev presence in the relevant forum at the very least commenting on what they do or do not agree is a problem or saying what solutions are considered a possibility and which aren't.

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