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Rafilialindal
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:09:00 -
[1]
Before I begin, I ask that you forgive me in advance if this topic has been discussed before, as it most likely has.
I am relatively new to Eve. I am also relatively new to mmo games, but something about Eve attracted me to the game, and I intend to stay for as long as its around. Of course what attracted me in the first place was how different Eve is from other games like it. This can be seen in the relative (and I stress relative) maturity of the Eve player base, in its remarkably fascinating economy, and its general wide open sense of freedom. Its really quite astonishing when you look at it, and I look forward to many days of happy play time.
However, soon after I joined Eve, I discovered its possible to log multiple characters in at once (on seperate accounts). I've even heard of people with 10 or 20 (!) logs at one time. I never the less have a problem with this. I am sure the dilema will appear obvios to most of you, but I'll lay it out anyway just to be clear.
Someone logging multiple characters holds a clear advantage over me, who has but one. This is manifested in the ability to earn vast amounts of money, as well as the ability to train multiple characters, etc. This person has leveraged his resources outside the game (or channeled them through GTC's, a practice I am not all that comfortable with either), in order to bypass restraints placed on single players by the game. While I am not all that familiar with their operations, I imagine Isk farmers are ones who profit most from this practice.
Does this not bother anyone else? Of course the argument is that they have a right to play the game in a way they enjoy. And I am all for that, except for one small problem. Eve is a game in which the actions I make affect other players to a degree not seen in any other large mmo (not counting Second Life, of course). This is due in part to the economy. Through which players exert a real effect on me through these things like multiple logging. This is of course a silly space game, but it is none the less one that I have put a lot of time into, and have begun to care about.
My main point in this post is to guage the degree of support there is for this sort of thing. Do you support it? Do you abhor it as I do? Am I a longwinded fruitcake? Or is it simply a non-issue?
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Yelan Zhou
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:12:00 -
[2]
Iam here mostly for the same reasons as you.There is nothing I guess that can be done about runing multiple accounts.I dont like it either but I have to live with it.
War, War never changes.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:13:00 -
[3]
Actively encouraged by CCP, do a search for "The Power of 2"
As for whether it is good or not, with Eve's training systems the only real way to experience the majority of what eve has to offer is to run multiple accounts. Otherwise you will be several years getting skilled enough to be competitive with more entrenched players. -------------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:14:00 -
[4]
People who have more spare time and put more effort than you into making ISK will be richer than you. Should their wallets be rebalanced to make it "fair"?
People who have been playing Eve longer than you will be able to kill you easily. Should their skillpoints be rebalanced to be inline with yours?
From whence is this pernicious idea, that all should be fair? --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Ralf Smith
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:14:00 -
[5]
its not unfair, you have the same ability to use multiple accounts.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:14:00 -
[6]
If there was a way to limit each and every player to a single character, then I'd happily support it. That having been said, it would be against CCP's best interests to doing so, since they are getting paid per account, not per player. If, on average, players are maintaining 2-3 accounts (averaging those with one account and those with ten), then CCP is making 2-3 times as much money as it would otherwise.
So yes, I agree with you, but I'm also not holding my breath for the situation to change.
-- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Karando
Random Goods
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:24:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Karando on 07/08/2008 23:24:41
Originally by: Rafilialindal Someone logging multiple characters holds a clear advantage over me, who has but one.
WUT! More characters = More power? NO WAI
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Liz Laser
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:35:00 -
[8]
I'm told that farmers can make enough isk to buy GTCs, thus making their accounts FREE; which basically means that jockeying 20 accounts is affordable by EVERYONE insane enough to try it.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar Holy Church Of Garmonism
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:40:00 -
[9]
Ethics in Eve...
You're not afraid of the dark, are you? |
Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:58:00 -
[10]
So what they have advantage over you? Big deal, they want to spend extra ISK and/or cash to have multiple accounts, no one is stopping you from doing the same.
I personally feel it is unethical that the King of Bahrain has more money than me, and Bill Gates, and George Soros for that matter, they have a clear advantage over me, because they are the richest people in the world and I am not, and can not afford the toys they can.
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:05:00 -
[11]
People can have advantages over you in any number of ways: more game knowledge, more intelligence, more accounts, more real life income, more time to play EVE, a better personality, etc. None of these considerations are relevant to questions of fairness and balance in EVE.
So it's a non issue.
Also, there are many ways to make ISK that don't get significantly easier with multiple accounts. If you can leverage all your ISK into 10 manufacturing slots, then you really only need one manufacturing character. If you can scam with a single character, you're fine with one account.
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Kirex
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liz Laser I'm told that farmers can make enough isk to buy GTCs, thus making their accounts FREE; which basically means that jockeying 20 accounts is affordable by EVERYONE insane enough to try it.
Yes, but how much fun are they having? Unless it's their job and they're ebaying the isk.
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Hegbard
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rafilialindal
Does this not bother anyone else?
There was this guy in Germany about 150 years ago. He was also bothered by this kind of thing. That some people have more and some people have less. Some have more abilities and some have less. So he wrote a book about it. The book was so powerful that it shaped the whole structure of the society for the past 100 years.
Maybe if you are so much bothered that some people have more than you, you could change society too.
Read his book, I'm of course talking about "Das Kapital" by Karl Marx.
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hegbard
Originally by: Rafilialindal
Does this not bother anyone else?
There was this guy in Germany about 150 years ago. He was also bothered by this kind of thing. That some people have more and some people have less. Some have more abilities and some have less. So he wrote a book about it. The book was so powerful that it shaped the whole structure of the society for the past 100 years.
Maybe if you are so much bothered that some people have more than you, you could change society too.
Read his book, I'm of course talking about "Das Kapital" by Karl Marx.
Yeah, and millions died. You'll understand why I'm not so enthralled with his ideas now. --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Malcanis
We are Legend eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rafilialindal Before I begin, I ask that you forgive me in advance if this topic has been discussed before, as it most likely has.
I am relatively new to Eve. I am also relatively new to mmo games, but something about Eve attracted me to the game, and I intend to stay for as long as its around. Of course what attracted me in the first place was how different Eve is from other games like it. This can be seen in the relative (and I stress relative) maturity of the Eve player base, in its remarkably fascinating economy, and its general wide open sense of freedom. Its really quite astonishing when you look at it, and I look forward to many days of happy play time.
However, soon after I joined Eve, I discovered its possible to log multiple characters in at once (on seperate accounts). I've even heard of people with 10 or 20 (!) logs at one time. I never the less have a problem with this. I am sure the dilema will appear obvios to most of you, but I'll lay it out anyway just to be clear.
Someone logging multiple characters holds a clear advantage over me, who has but one. This is manifested in the ability to earn vast amounts of money, as well as the ability to train multiple characters, etc. This person has leveraged his resources outside the game (or channeled them through GTC's, a practice I am not all that comfortable with either), in order to bypass restraints placed on single players by the game. While I am not all that familiar with their operations, I imagine Isk farmers are ones who profit most from this practice.
Does this not bother anyone else? Of course the argument is that they have a right to play the game in a way they enjoy. And I am all for that, except for one small problem. Eve is a game in which the actions I make affect other players to a degree not seen in any other large mmo (not counting Second Life, of course). This is due in part to the economy. Through which players exert a real effect on me through these things like multiple logging. This is of course a silly space game, but it is none the less one that I have put a lot of time into, and have begun to care about.
My main point in this post is to guage the degree of support there is for this sort of thing. Do you support it? Do you abhor it as I do? Am I a longwinded fruitcake? Or is it simply a non-issue?
You can earn more ISk with 2 characters than you can with one. The difference isn't "vast" though. It certainly doesn't scale linearly.
Most of the people I know who have multiple characters do so because it can take a very long time to skill up to some ships, and they don't want to wait 7 or 8 years to try out all the ships that interest them.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Wild Rho
Amarr Silent Core
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:28:00 -
[16]
Just remember that more characters doesn't automatically = more isk.
That player still has to invest time using those characters and playing the game to generate income, they still need to spend isk on skills, ships and everything else required and you can only multi-task so much without using EULA breaching means (macros etc). Having several characters can make some tasks easier or more bearable (many supercap pilots may not still be playing if they were never able to use another character to do other things) and so on.
You can play with a single character the whole time and compete with multi account players - many players do this quite successfully. In the end it's really not something that you should let bother you as it doesn't have as significant an impact as you may imagine.
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sableye
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:32:00 -
[17]
I have multiple accounts, I do think eve would be a whole lot better (not finacially maybe) if everyoen only had one account/character but since its totally not enforcable this scenario is impossible to happen as I have multiple computers like many people there is now way to stop peopel relaistically running 2 accounts.
Join The Fight With Promo Today View The North Star! |
Khatred
ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:45:00 -
[18]
I am really getting annoyed by this non-issue being brought into discussion. Really, WHY do you care? It's a game, everybody enjoys it their way. A group of different people will also have an advantage over you. A bigger group of people will also have and advantage over your small group. Why do people log into mmorpgs hoping to find a perfect world and not just log in order to get your daily or weekly gaming fix and be done with it?
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Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:57:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Joey Meow on 08/08/2008 00:58:10
Originally by: Hegbard There was this guy in Germany about 150 years ago. He was also bothered by this kind of thing. That some people have more and some people have less. Some have more abilities and some have less. So he wrote a book about it. The book was so powerful that it shaped the whole structure of the society for the past 100 years.
Maybe if you are so much bothered that some people have more than you, you could change society too.
Read his book, I'm of course talking about "Das Kapital" by Karl Marx.
Originally by: Vikarion Yeah, and millions died. You'll understand why I'm not so enthralled with his ideas now.
1) You are both wrong.
2) Marx was an economist, and he actually lived most of his life in England, not Germany, and that is where Das Kapital was written.
3) Frederick Engels was actually the one, with the help of Marx's wife, who corrupted Marx's work and turned it from purely sociological and economic critique of the modern world, and perverted it into what it later became in the USSR.
4) Marx is actually the one who fully fleshed out the idea of what Capitalism is with his, apparently not so well known here, notion of commodity fetishism, and traced the interaction of money and labor - which is what Capitalism is all about - money and labor.
5) Do not confuse idealism and brilliance of Karl Marx with what the unwashed masses perceive him to be, the "father" of communism as we know it from the 20th and 21st Century's. He certainly is not.
To reiterate, Marx was a brilliant sociologist and an economist, that is where his contributions lies, not in the perverted notions of where you think they lie because of your surface knowledge gleaned from the second rate text book of public education systems.
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Rafilialindal
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:10:00 -
[20]
I should probably clarify/correct this. I didn't mean to come off as complaining about how unfair it is to compete against people with multiple accounts, even though it sorta is. Rather I meant to question the underlying reasons behind why you (as in the person using multiple accounts) would want to enjoy profiting from multiple accounts. Personally, I get far more enjoyment from the work I put into getting that shiny new ship, rather then using what I consider a work around to get there faster. Its the journey that counts is what I am saying, not the destination. That said, I can see why you would use another account to explore a different career path.
I should stress I don't take all this stuff that seriously...like I said, it is just a silly game. Even so, I'll continue to play the game like the purist I am, and you guys are free of course to play in whatever way makes you happy, thats what makes Eve so interesting.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:37:00 -
[21]
However, soon after I joined Eve, I discovered its possible to stay logged in 23 hours a day (one hour a day is downtime). I've heard of people logged in for 16 or 20 of those 23 hours. I never the less have a problem with this. I am sure the dilema will appear obvios to most of you, but I'll lay it out anyway just to be clear.
Someone who can play 16 hours a day has a clear advantage over me, who can only play a couple. This is manifested in the ability to earn vast amounts of money, as well as the ability to micromanage skills, etc. This person has leveraged his resources outside the game (or just lives in their mother's basement, a practice I am not all that comfortable with either), in order to bypass restraints placed on most players by RL obligations. While I am not all that familiar with their operations, I imagine Isk farmers are ones who profit most from this practice.
Does this not bother anyone else? Of course the argument is that they have a right to play the game in a way they enjoy. And I am all for that, except for one small problem. Eve is a game in which the actions I make affect other players to a degree not seen in any other large mmo (not counting Second Life, of course). This is due in part to the economy. Through which players exert a real effect on me through these things like non-stop playing. This is of course a silly space game, but it is none the less one that I have put a lot of time into, and have begun to care about.
My main point in this post is to guage the degree of support there is for this sort of thing. Do you support it? Do you abhor it as I do? Am I a longwinded fruitcake? Or is it simply a non-issue? -
DesuSigs |
Kadrush
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:39:00 -
[22]
I would never went to a fleet battle with 10 chars logged at the same time. My PC would explode
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Macareus
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Crumplecorn However, soon after I joined Eve, I discovered its possible to stay logged in 23 hours a day (one hour a day is downtime). I've heard of people logged in for 16 or 20 of those 23 hours. I never the less have a problem with this. I am sure the dilema will appear obvios to most of you, but I'll lay it out anyway just to be clear.
Someone who can play 16 hours a day has a clear advantage over me, who can only play a couple. This is manifested in the ability to earn vast amounts of money, as well as the ability to micromanage skills, etc. This person has leveraged his resources outside the game (or just lives in their mother's basement, a practice I am not all that comfortable with either), in order to bypass restraints placed on most players by RL obligations. While I am not all that familiar with their operations, I imagine Isk farmers are ones who profit most from this practice.
Does this not bother anyone else? Of course the argument is that they have a right to play the game in a way they enjoy. And I am all for that, except for one small problem. Eve is a game in which the actions I make affect other players to a degree not seen in any other large mmo (not counting Second Life, of course). This is due in part to the economy. Through which players exert a real effect on me through these things like non-stop playing. This is of course a silly space game, but it is none the less one that I have put a lot of time into, and have begun to care about.
My main point in this post is to guage the degree of support there is for this sort of thing. Do you support it? Do you abhor it as I do? Am I a longwinded fruitcake? Or is it simply a non-issue?
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Darkwolf
Caldari The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:58:00 -
[24]
Disclaimer: I'm a dual-boxer. I've always run two accounts at once. At my worst I've quad-boxed two EVE accounts and two WOW accounts at once. I'm insane.
It is absolutely fair that a multi-boxer gains an advantage over a single-boxer. They are putting more resources and effort into their gameplay, so they receive an advantage. They are acting completely within the set rules of the game, and acting in a manner that is endorsed by CCP.
Any calls of "unfair" only come from your own internal set of rules as to how things "should" work. Don't apply your own set of values to others and expect it all to make sense. It won't. Others don't tick the same way you do.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.08.08 02:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Darkwolf It is absolutely fair that a multi-boxer gains an advantage over a single-boxer. They are putting more resources and effort into their gameplay, so they receive an advantage.
This too.
Really, rather than making things twice as easy, two accounts gives you the opportunity to work twice as hard. -
DesuSigs |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:32:00 -
[26]
Lotta people consider it cheap/cheesy/whatever. Lotta people don't.
Every 0.0 corp I have been in, I would say 3/4 of the people have at least 2 and as much as 6 diff accounts.
But if EVE is about anything, it's about endlessd alts. Atl spies, Alt haulers, Alt Cynos, Alt scouts, Alt suiciders, Alt mission runners, Alt researchers, Alt Marketers, etc.
I once had a guy try and scold me for "solo mentality in a MMO" because I was missioning, couse he was on his Alt hauler at the time...
So, no I don't really like it but it's here to stay.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:42:00 -
[27]
Let's see...
Trading GTCs for ISK ? Allowed. Trading ISK for characters ? Allowed. Scamming people out of their ISK ? Allowed. Non-consensual PvP anywhere ? For the time being, still allowed.
So... ethics... in EVE ? WHAT ?
_
THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Lord XSiV
Amarr GIT-R-DUN Southern Connection
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:18:00 -
[28]
It mirrors real life/society, so what is your problem? No one cares about the lower class, downtrodden, lazy people who expect everything to be handed to them without effort. Eve is no different.
Like really, your arguments are saying that people who have become successful in life should be punished because you are one or more of the following:
1. Stupid 2. Lazy 3. Lethargic 4. Believe in some irrelevant cause such as environmentalism (basically a combination of stupidity and laziness) 5. Jealous
By your own statements, if you don't own a car to travel to work (or whatever for that matter) then no one else should have one because that's an 'unfair advantage'. Essentially what you hope for would end the entire human race; it is bad enough as it is.
In regards to the comments about communism being bad - quite the contrary. The USSR ended up being probably the most advanced society when it came to education, class, athletic ability and anything else in comparison to capitalist based Governments. Only problem they had was that their economic backbone was solely supported by millitary production which killed it in the end. If anyone wants to argue that then they are stupid; the proof is obvious:
1. No other country came close to winning the number of Olympic medals USSR did 2. No other country had an illiteracy rate of 0% 3. Russia has the largest number of billionairres worldwide after adopting capitalism only a short while ago
Western civilization on the otherhand is quite accomodating to people failing and has created the worst possible thing to promote laziness by implementing 'social safety nets' such as welfare which only reward laziness. It is only human nature to be lazy; making the option easily attianable ensures it and as a result the entire society pays a steep price for bucking the 'rules of nature'.
Anyhow, op, get back to washing dishes/living in mom's basement/paper route and quit complaining about other people better than you.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.08.08 10:14:00 -
[29]
Well, it at first it does seem annoying and unfair and so on. However those with 20 accounts most likely started with just 1 account. How someone uses their isk is up to them, at least as long as it goes in accordance with the EULA. So if someone can make enough isk to fund a 2nd account, so be it.
If that 2nd account allows them to afford a 3rd account, thats kind of tough but that is their isk they are making and using in a way that they want that also goes with the EULA. The same for the 4th and so on. Now if the person is simply paying for them out of pocket, well thats what they want to do with their paychecks. I don't have isk or RL $ like that but I'm doing just fine in game without 20 accounts.
The thing is most people are going to have a hard time really using all 20 accounts in a way that is going to directly effect you. Best advice is to either get a few of your own accounts going or just forget about it. I know I did and haven't really given a damn since about it. You'll reach a point where you can make enough isk for yourself and have enough SP to not sweat going against everyone else in game. It is an odd thing about the game though, I'll admit that.
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Malcanis
We are Legend eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.08 10:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Darkwolf It is absolutely fair that a multi-boxer gains an advantage over a single-boxer. They are putting more resources and effort into their gameplay, so they receive an advantage.
This too.
Really, rather than making things twice as easy, two accounts gives you the opportunity to work twice as hard.
Nicely put.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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