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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:16:00 -
[331]
A mob is indeed stupid, but that because in a mob the feelings and impulses take control, reinforced by the presence of others that let themselves loose too.
Rational behaviour is usually not at all present, or if it is, it's squelched almost instantly by the rest of the mob.
What I was talking about however was not a mob, but a community.
In a community, most people behave rationally, and the most rational choices made (be it by the smart guys or the lucky guys) get imitated most, and overall, the community (and each one in it) will end up doing (USUALLY, not always) what's best for the community and implicitly what's best for most people in that community.
So, yeah... you can get pretty extreme results out of a larger group of people, but the results you get are usually much more potent than those from a single individual... be it the violence of a mob or the actions that lead to the prosperity of a community.
So, yeah, while you can liken roaming blobs with real-life mobs, you can also liken the population of certain areas with communities... but communities with a much higher degree of mobility than real-life communities... think semi-nomadic tribes.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:21:00 -
[332]
Why leave today? It is much easier in empire to get very rich.
miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |
DarthJosh
DEATHFUNK
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:23:00 -
[333]
Edited by: DarthJosh on 10/08/2008 20:22:59
because you chose to play eve, not WoW.
if you don't, you're playing the wrong game.
edit: it's plain and simple.
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Desusigs! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:27:00 -
[334]
Originally by: DarthJosh
because you chose to play eve, not WoW.
if you don't, you're playing the wrong game.
edit: it's plain and simple.
And PRECISELY because I choose to play EVE and not WOW, I will choose to go wherever it's most profitable to be when taking risks into account... for the time being, highsec has the absolute best ratio.
Would I have been playing it WOWesquely, then I would go to lowsec/0.0 "because that's where I'm supposed to go when I get higher level".
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:38:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 10/08/2008 20:08:30
And that's why I said "generally" instead of "always".
Pointing out an exception does not invalidate a rule.
Also, no, you didn't give any other reason except "because it's there".
What you said afterwards was an explanation of why some people prefer to play the game different from other people, but nowhere there have you given any REASONS why somebody should go to lowsec/0.0 - you merely stated that some people PREFER to go there, without giving a logical reason for them doing so.
Yep planes flying doesn't disprove gravity.
Umm those explanations of of playing preferences actually do anwser the question, they are the reasons why, each and everyone is different and individual to the player.
I (or anyone else) cannot give a reason why a member of Goonswarn or BoB lives in 0.0 apart from them, but they do so the reasons are there even though they don't conform to your Logic, it was there, they looked it and thought ... and came up with thier reasons to go. I / You may have done something different in the same position, its personal, its not real life doing a job you hate just to live life and have cash to play eve is it?
Oh i better tell you i don't hate what i do just in case you jump to silly conculsions.
...... continues overleaf. |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:43:00 -
[336]
They went there because, at one time, that was the most profitable, fun and challenging place to play.
Nowadays, it's just fun and challenging. There's still profit, especially for groups like BoB who have cornered off good sections of space, but it's much easier (and safer) for many of the other 0.0 corps to use hisec as a means for funding their 0.0 endeavors.
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:44:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: DarthJosh
because you chose to play eve, not WoW.
if you don't, you're playing the wrong game.
edit: it's plain and simple.
And PRECISELY because I choose to play EVE and not WOW, I will choose to go wherever it's most profitable to be when taking risks into account... for the time being, highsec has the absolute best ratio.
Would I have been playing it WOWesquely, then I would go to lowsec/0.0 "because that's where I'm supposed to go when I get higher level".
Ah, you see you answer everything with your reasons, you seem to want ISK's/profit above everything and thats not the point of eve.
...... continues overleaf. |
masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:46:00 -
[338]
because 0.0 is awesome! its completely player driven!
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:47:00 -
[339]
Without isk, you can't fight. Without profit, you can't grow. Though 'isk' and 'profit' might not be the point of EvE, it damn sure is an essential ingredient.
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Claudia Voltaire
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:50:00 -
[340]
Edited by: Claudia Voltaire on 10/08/2008 20:51:25
logical reason.
Where you fail to be honest, the will of the individual neither requires logic nor reason.
What bimbo was getting at, you seem to belive everybody should addear to you're own set of special rules, whats logical, and what makes total sense according to you.
Hard to belive that you actualy botherd to read his post in all honesty, jumping back on the one track line of thought after you'd just been told, it's not something you see everyday
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mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:56:00 -
[341]
Edited by: mishkof on 10/08/2008 20:59:40
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
What valuable resources are there?
-Ratting/Complexes? Barely make any more than hisec missionrunning if at all AND you can't spend all your time running them as you have to DEFEND the space that is there.
-Moons? The profits there go towards, wait for it , wait for it...DEFENDING THE SPACE. Holding space currently does NOT improve the wealth/prosperity of the owners by a really significant margin. In fact, given all the ISK/time needed to defend the space, the wealth of the owners is DECREASED.
Lowsec you don't even really have that.
Again, there is no guaruntee that you will make more in 0.0.
If you suck you lose a lot of ships, and you go back to empire with your tail between your legs to run your uber level 4 missions.
Let me state this again for emphasis. If you are not good at the game, or dont have the mentality for 0.0 then you will not reap the rewards.
There is no way to compare level 4 mission running to 0.0 because even though 0.0 has a higher income possibility it still takes skill to control those income resources.
I tend to think of hisec mission running as the poverty line and teh benfits that go along with living at that level of society. It is a base line beggining so that noone will starve. Level 4 missions serve the purpose of giving game content on a primative level, so that people can rebuild, or if they enjoy a monotinous grind as their content...well be my guest. I enjoy free food that doesnt mean I am gonna go to the local municiple building and sign up for food stamps.
level 4 missions = eves food stamp.
Edited - to take out losec...lol losec, needs to be buffed.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.08.10 21:42:00 -
[342]
If you're basing your choice as to why people would want to leave hisec for 0.0 on ISK, then it's a no brainer.
In hisec you can farm and make the most isk. In hisec, if you stay in a noob corp, you have no responsibities and no way of being war dec'd. Your greatest risk comes at suicide ganking, but that is marginalized a great deal by what how you fit your ship.
In nullsec you must split your time between resource gathering for your pos, farming, and defense of space. In nullsec, if there are no enemies, and no pos' require resources, and your not being called to defend or attack, you can make the most isk as long as you have more than 1 account. If you don't have more than 1 account, much of your time is spent sharing your ratting resources with your alliance. Overall, you make around 5-20 million an hour ratting in true 0.0 space due to it being shared with others.
So it boils down to this : Hisec is where you want to be if you don't wish to split your play time doing something other than maximizing your monetary efforts. Nullsec is where you want to go if you want more PVP.
Nullsec players want there to be a reason for people to leave hisec. They want new talent, new players, without the need to convince people to come out. They feel it should be a natural progression, you build your manufacturing and combat skills in hisec, but eventually if you want to get to the next level in play - it should require moving to nullsec.
Hisec players typically feel they put in their portion to the pot by purchasing the game, what they do is their choice after that, and they should be allowed to same opportunities at isk making as nullsec with the option to avoid pvp.
If you feel different about this, pretty much your options are to try and persuade CCP to act differently, or quit. My personal opinion is that the game is starting to suck, and I might be leaving too for the reasons I've outlined above.
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Mutabae
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Posted - 2008.08.10 21:49:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 06/08/2008 17:31:00
...
Want the single most compelling reason NOT to carebear-up EVE ?
If before, people were having reservations about moving OUT of highsec and into lowsec and 0.0, now this is the big one that makes a lot of OTHER people come back to highsec.
Seriously, can ANYBODY give me a good reason why I should EVER bother getting out of highsec now ?
I seldom exited highsec before, but now it's basically pointless !
Mining ? No thanks, lowsec ore isn't worth much over Veldspar, and too much trouble bothering with 0.0... I'll just sit in a cargo-expadnded Hulk and check every 15 minutes.
Or, heck, why even bother with mining when mission loot refines so nicely into all those nice "rare" minerals ?
Heck, even morphite from the drone missions, why bother venturing out in the deep 0.0 for it ?
AND you also get cash, not just minerals.
...
Ratting and pirate implants ? Why bother ratting if L4 missions offer a greater target density ?
Play in a player corp ? Hmmm... what's the point ? solo L4 highsec missions are more than you could ever want ! And with no threat of war, and with the increased cost to get suicide-ganked, let's just pimp our ships to hell and back !
...
Seriously, does any of "risk and reward" or "we plan to improve lowsec and 0.0 to draw more people out there" ring a bell ?
Since you're one of those lazy and uninventive gamers that min/maxes your character, you won't leave the areas that return the maximum return for your time. Good. That leaves the rest of the game for the people that are actually trying to have fun instead of investing in their mutual funds.
You don't 'get' Eve, despite your near encyclopedic understanding of its minutiae. Go away, Goumindongg-clone. You're a robot.
Why don't you go play Excel? I hear you can make awesome graphs....
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RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2008.08.11 06:03:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Mutabae
Since you're one of those lazy and uninventive gamers that min/maxes your character, you won't leave the areas that return the maximum return for your time. Good. That leaves the rest of the game for the people that are actually trying to have fun instead of investing in their mutual funds.
You don't 'get' Eve, despite your near encyclopedic understanding of its minutiae. Go away, Goumindongg-clone. You're a robot.
Why don't you go play Excel? I hear you can make awesome graphs....
Your answer could do without all that sludge, but it is the best answer this thread can get.
miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.11 08:14:00 -
[345]
Wow, look, irony ! And it's not made out of iron either !
So, let me rephrase : "of course there's no good financial reason to leave highsec, which is a good thing, since most people will never leave highsec that way, leaving the rest of EVE for guys like me that have FUN living there, unlike you, who can't possibly have any fun whatsoever in highsec".
Good answer my ass.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Caia
Gallente
Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.08.11 08:48:00 -
[346]
What is this 0.0 and low-sec that you refer to? I thought that it only went down to .6 
Ok, all kidding aside, there was little reason to go to low sec space before. Nothing has changed as far as I can tell. So, yeah, I'll stick to selling stuff in high sec space.
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Rick Rothsar
Ghosts of Ragnarok
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Posted - 2008.08.11 10:20:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
I agree that high sec is too comfy, but I don't think the suicide nerf has much to do with it. Probably not a whole lot of people got suicide ganked and then said, "hell with this! I'm goin' to LOW SEC."
/signed
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.11 10:40:00 -
[348]
Attention: RL Analogies
I got to highsec to make money while enjoying driving a Ferrari on a german Autbahn.
I go to lowsec/0.0 to lose isk while enjoying driving a jeep though cross country, trying to kill people there doing the same.
And I really don't see whats wrong with that. Of course, I play for fun, not fame...
And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.11 14:31:00 -
[349]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I got to highsec to make money while enjoying driving a Ferrari on a german Autbahn.
I go to lowsec/0.0 to lose isk while enjoying driving a jeep though cross country, trying to kill people there doing the same.
And I really don't see whats wrong with that.
How about...
I stay in highsec (big city office/store) to make a living working 9-to-5 in almost complete safety.
I go to lowsec (post-war zone rebuilding area, or any jobs in bad neighbourhoods) to earn good money while being aware I might be risking my safety or even life, but at least I have enough relatively non-hostile people around.
I go to 0.0 (Alaskan oil rig worker, war zone mercenary) to make some very fast cash, but being fully aware I'm taking a relatively big risk with my life, not just from the other guys around, but from the environment itself too.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.08.11 15:16:00 -
[350]
cant beleive your all still arguing with this pathetic excuse of a troll.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.11 15:39:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Attention: RL Analogies
I got to highsec to make money while enjoying driving a Ferrari on a german Autbahn.
I go to lowsec/0.0 to lose isk while enjoying driving a jeep though cross country, trying to kill people there doing the same.
And I really don't see whats wrong with that. Of course, I play for fun, not fame...
i've already outlined what's wrong with that. If lowsec/0.0 is reduced to a glorified WoW Battleground, then it becomes pointless. Fighting is more fun when you're actually fighting over something. When the territory is useless (read: doesn't give you any more ISK potential) the fights are stale and pointless.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.11 15:51:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
cant beleive your all still arguing with this pathetic excuse of a troll.
We're trying to ignore you but you won't go away, so we have no choice 
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.11 16:36:00 -
[353]
This whole concept of using hisec to make money and losec to PvP just seems wrong.
Losec ain't battlegrounds, or 'PvP' zone. It's another part of the universe where people should be able to live, work and prosper. Splitting EvE into two different worlds, PvE land and PvP land ...
This ain't WoW. If you want to play EvE with WoW rules, why not play WoW instead?
If you don't want to play in a world where your subject to competition and violence, why play EvE at all? Because using the NPC game mechanics is an exploit. CCP might not be defining it as such, just yet, but it still is.
You might argue that they want it that way, and you could be right. But as a reminder, a lot of stab users thought that CCP wanted players to stack stabs until they couldn't be caught, too. And a lot of nano users thought that CCP wanted players to be able to reach 'ludicrous' speeds, too. And a lot of griefers thought that CCP wanted players to be able to suicide gank and still bank insurance, too.
Avoiding the mechanics of the game by staying in an NPC corp, which is designed to protect new players and offer those who are in-between corps a generic 'place to be', sounds like an exploit to me.
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:53:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Ruze
This whole concept of using hisec to make money and losec / 0.0 to PvP just seems wrong.
Give this man a cookie 
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:26:00 -
[355]
Edited by: mishkof on 11/08/2008 19:30:24
Originally by: Ruze
This whole concept of using hisec to make money and losec to PvP just seems wrong.
Losec ain't battlegrounds, or 'PvP' zone. It's another part of the universe where people should be able to live, work and prosper. Splitting EvE into two different worlds, PvE land and PvP land ...
This ain't WoW. If you want to play EvE with WoW rules, why not play WoW instead?
If you don't want to play in a world where your subject to competition and violence, why play EvE at all? Because using the NPC game mechanics is an exploit. CCP might not be defining it as such, just yet, but it still is.
You might argue that they want it that way, and you could be right. But as a reminder, a lot of stab users thought that CCP wanted players to stack stabs until they couldn't be caught, too. And a lot of nano users thought that CCP wanted players to be able to reach 'ludicrous' speeds, too. And a lot of griefers thought that CCP wanted players to be able to suicide gank and still bank insurance, too.
Avoiding the mechanics of the game by staying in an NPC corp, which is designed to protect new players and offer those who are in-between corps a generic 'place to be', sounds like an exploit to me.
We are essentialy saying the same thing. We certainly want the same thing. we just have a different places we draw the line.
I have been succesful in making 10 times (yes ten times) the amount of ISK within a months time period then I would have made grinding missions for the same amount of time.
I have also had severe losses myself and watched as corp/alliance mates limp back to empire never to come back to 0.0 again because their transport got ganked with all of their worldly possesions, or some other catastrophe of equal outcome took place.
My probem with yours and Akitas view is that someone should never be "guarunteed" to make 4 times more in 0.0 then in empire. That is where I draw my line. If someone isnt guarunteed to make more or less money then highsec missions then how can highsec missions be imbalanced?
If someone is guarunteed to make that much then this game is no longer eve. There should be the possibility that you get cut off at the knees, even ragequit the game because you did something stupid/got beat on pretty badly.
I am purposely dismissing people that say they make 5-20 mil an hours in 0.0 because quite frankly you are doing it wrong, and your marriage to level 4 missions is quite fitting.
To me having to run missions in hisec as your only source of income is the eve equivilent of purgatory. Eve Online missions are the most boring activity I have ever encountered in any multiplayer game I have ever played. It also says a lot about your ability to play this game we call eve. You lack imagination, and more importantly fortitude.
The only reason I have run missions since I passeed the 10 mil SP mark was for research agents, so it is no skin of my "you know what" if they get nerfed. My interest in this topic is completely selfish however, because in the end level 4 missions do allow many people to participate in PVP in the manner with which you describe. I just dont have a problem with it like you fellas do...Because quite frankly the more people flying around that want to PVP and can afford it the better IMO.
Anyways, this horse has been beaten enough for it to die twice, in the end I leave it to CCP to decide.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
Viqtoria
Caldari
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:35:00 -
[356]
so AT do you ever leave highsec anyway
Please keep your signature on-topic.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:39:00 -
[357]
Originally by: mishkof
My probem with yours and Akitas view is that someone should never be "guarunteed" to make 4 times more in 0.0 then in empire. That is where I draw my line.
I'm saying that assuming no enemy distractions are present, 0.0 should guarantee at least 4 times more income than highsec, perfectly scalable with numbers of users barring lag.
In other words, if you would get 50, 100 or 200 people ratting in a certain -1.0 truesec system with no hostile presence whatsoever, I fully expect either of them to gain on average at least 4 times the ISK one could earn by running L4 missions in a similarly fit ship at the same skill levels.
However, if any hostiles are present, of course that income level could easily drop below highsec income level, even get into significant losses.
How you manage to do that (since L4 ratting is not perfectly scalable whereas L4 mission-running is, until lag hits), now that's a completely differnt story.
Wether you dynamically adjust NPC spawn rates in 0.0 belts upwards, you add a lot of easily scannable encounter missions, or even you scale down L4 mission bounties and rewards the more people run them, I couldn't care less which one of the above you pick, as long as the end result is the one described.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:34:00 -
[358]
For those saying that making highsec even so slightly safer will have no effect (or vice-versa)... an interesting read : Linkage
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:42:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Akita T
For those saying that making highsec even so slightly safer will have no effect (or vice-versa)... an interesting read : Linkage
Which is exactly why people like me are looking forward to the changes. I haven't suicide ganked in several months, but as soon as they make things "safer"...
Yeah, should be target rich afterwards. 
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:44:00 -
[360]
As to the whole risk/reward ratio between hisec and 0.0. One question:
Do you think changing the drone regions into a normal 0.0 zone (say gurista rats) would go far in straightening it out?
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
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