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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.06 01:16:00 -
[1]
The Optimal Character Build
I'd think this would be helpful to old and new alike.
Akita T, care to add your own info?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.06 02:27:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/08/2008 02:28:59
Pretty damn good article overall, and the final conclusion is one that I have stated (and restated a couple of times) myself... in the *really* long run, there's not that much of a difference after you take into account nearly maxed learnings, good implants and a wide selection of skills.
By the way, who wrote it ? I can't seem to find a name in there.
As fine the article may be, I have a couple of issues with it.
First of all (and least relevant for the matter at hand, but I must mention it anyway) would be the fact that whoever wrote the article shouldn't have bothered actually coding anything at all... a functionality almost identical to what he planned to acheive is already available in EVE-HQ.
So, while not an issue in itself, it feels like the writer reinvented the wheel. Not a bad experience, I'm sure, but not really mandatory.
The most pressing issue however would be the "max recommended level" for skills.
For instance, there are skills that aren't prerequisites for any other skills, and might be quite high-rank, but you want to have them either for access to modules or in order to maximize damage, tank, speed or whatever. I'm talking about skills like surgical strike, warhead upgrades, shield management, thermodynamics, all the "secondary" (non-racial) T2 ship skills, cloaking, shield upgrades and so on... which I kind of doubt any of them were planned to L5, maybe some not even above L3. Or, heck, did the plan include training for all the mindlinks or fleet command ? What about Empire Control 5 and other industrialist skills ? Any of the science skills to 5 ? Research project management 5 ? Any of the social skills to L5 ? And so on and so forth.
So, the skill plan is most likely a "jack of all trades" skillplan with no specialization in anything specific. While it might appeal to some (I know it appeals to me, to some degree anyway), it's certainly not everybody's favourite.
For instance, I have over 38 mil SP right now, and I have a "ha-ha-mostly kidding" skillplan for my character in EVE-Mon... and it's almost 1400 days long, ending at over 111 mil SP... and that's NOT even the entire possible skillset the would be of good use to a character. Comparing that with the 71 mil plan used by the article writer, the discrepancy starts getting quite noticeable.
Another issue would be the uniformity of learning skills and the issue of implants.
Hmm, I even wonder, when exactly WAS cybernetics trained, to what levels, and what implants did the writer default to ?
Also, for any skill plan going above 3 years (and the plan DID go for over 4 years), *some* of the advanced learnings are definitely worth training to L5, especially perception and probably also willpower and intelligence, in extreme cases maybe even memory... and as strange as it might seem, basic charisma would probably suffice to L4 (depending on what exactly your planned skills were).
Fourth and (for now) final issue would be the ORDER of skill training and the use you want to get out of the character.
Like the writer himself remarks, 4+ years down the road, you really won't care THAT much wether you could have finished the whole plan so far two months earlier, if only you would have been ready to do some decent things very early on in your character's life.
So, while a high int but average per character might do slightly worse later on, depening on what initial path you choose, it could initially get the upper hand much faster and stay ahead of the low int, high per character a good while.
In the end, you have to make a choice between what exactly you want sooner rather than later, and how important everything you finish training is to you (i.e. order of desirability).
But yeah, the writer did mention some of those shortcomings in the end as possible "future research", so it's not like he was completely unaware of them... just pointing it out using different words.
So... how's that for my own info, KS ? 
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.06 02:45:00 -
[3]
P.S. And a correction to the article... I never claimed Achura Inventor to be "the optimal" build... I claimed it to be "the most versatile" build.
While the difference in wording is not all that striking at first, it's the difference between "getting to a final long-term goal fastest" (that would be the optimal build) and "better than average if considering all possible paths you could possibly want to choose, at different points in time" (more versatile).
For each and every specialization you might choose, there's a single optimal build.
For all skills to L5, there's a single optimal build.
For any particular combination of skills you might choose, there's a single optimal build.
But if you have no clue what you want to do, and you don't know when you will want it, nor do you know when you'll feel like abandoning one path and picking another only to change your mind later on again and so on and so forth... in that case, you want a "build" that's as versatile as possible... i.e. NOT the best possible for any particular job, but instead at least adequate (if not above average) regardless of what job you may pick.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.06 03:03:00 -
[4]
holy shit
(currently not enough caffeine in my system to process that much info)
I'm going to be more careful when I play the "Akita T skill guru" card
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Aaron Wells
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Posted - 2008.08.06 03:56:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Aaron Wells on 06/08/2008 04:04:51
nvm
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Karanth
Gallente
Eve's Brothers of Destiny
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.06 11:00:00 -
[6]
That was a pile of fuggin tables, I'll say.
Wonder where my build ranks...
Warp Speed skill needed! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.07 00:21:00 -
[7]
So, nobody knows who wrote that article ?
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Aaron Wells
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Posted - 2008.08.07 00:42:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Aaron Wells on 07/08/2008 00:42:41
 Originally by: Akita T
So, nobody knows who wrote that article ?
It says -Sinclair at the bottom of the article and there is a player named that ingame but is offline currently. Possibly the author?
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Arkadrel
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:08:00 -
[9]
Wow.. thats good news ;)
I knew I made a decent choice when I picked my "Amarr Khanid Cyberknight".
I dont plan on learning every possible skill in the game though, so meh.
I dont think theres really any optimal build, because everyone at some point will want to skill something in a differnt order, do something else and so on. Youd think this would promote the Versitile build, but im actually against that too(a little focus isnt a bad thing).
int 09
per 15
wil 12
mem 04
chr 05
where my starting stats(when I entered the game), my mem sucks, but whats lost in 1 area is gained in another besically in this game. I figoured implants would help off set it abit, and learning skills. Also dont really plan on doing any "industry/corpation management" so didnt see a need to have a even/ballanced character with good memory and low something else. (focus of a build = unballanced = best way to get good in area you want to be (sucks if it turns out you didnt want to be what you optimised character for at start though).
pick the race/bloodline/ancestry you like the story/stats/protrait, and dont worry to much about all this stat/skill training time stuff. Im happy im not a Achura, simply because of howmuch I loathe that everyone else seems to be one, and how fugly I find the protraits.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.08 08:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
The Optimal Character Build
I'd think this would be helpful to old and new alike.
Akita T, care to add your own info?
It'd be valid if most people tried to train on an even keel, but they don't. People train in archtypes, combat vs corp alt vs trader vs miner, etc. Not entirely specialized but heavily weighted in one direction or another.
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Mr M
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Posted - 2008.08.09 05:30:00 -
[11]
I'll tell him to check this thread.
EVE Tribune | EVEgeek |
Balcura
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Posted - 2008.08.09 19:35:00 -
[12]
I pipe up from time to time on the forums and can agree that if you are training ALL skills then that might be the correct build or most optimal, but I have rarely seen anyone that trains for ALL the dreads or ALL the tech 2 large guns or ALL the tech 2 hac's.
If you look into 1 race of ships and then a cross train to another for a specific class you'll find that Int becomes very important as you just removed 2-3 races of BS, 2 races of cruisers ect... I have a new inventor/researcher character that I've started up and minmatar (14int, 8mem and 6cha) works the best for the skill set I'm after.
There are optimal builds for every diffent type of character combination, there are even a few that CHA needs to be high to save months of training.
Things in eve are never as simple as crunch it all and look there are always factors that make some things better then others in a given situation. It's what keeps me around and still figuring stuff out.
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Lotus Ambrosia
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Posted - 2008.08.09 22:00:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Lotus Ambrosia on 09/08/2008 22:02:11
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
The Optimal Character Build
I'd think this would be helpful to old and new alike.
Akita T, care to add your own info?
You start gaining time after 3 years with advance learning. +5 implants is very nice and worth it
I've also tested this. Getting a 12per 8,mem,int,wil and 3char (achura)
Is probably the best char letting you get the most out of the game in the beginning.
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Captain Birrelli
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Posted - 2008.08.10 02:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aaron Wells
Edited by: Aaron Wells on 07/08/2008 00:42:41
Originally by: Akita T
So, nobody knows who wrote that article ?
It says -Sinclair at the bottom of the article and there is a player named that ingame but is offline currently. Possibly the author?
Written by Sinclair Chevalier of Virtual Life Vanguard
Great article too btw.
Cheers.
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Sinclair Chevalier
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.25 13:59:00 -
[15]
Yes, I am the author of the Optimal Character article.
Thank you for your interest and criticisms. I conducted the study from a pure research perspective and found the results interesting. Apparently the Eve Tribune did also and agreed to publish it for me. I fully realize that my findings may have little practical use. In my next article I will address some of these concerns and will apply my method to a few specific scenarios. Hopefully, this will prove more realistically applicable.
________________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." -- Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Witcher
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Posted - 2008.08.26 14:14:00 -
[16]
AMAZING STUFF 
This was very interesting theoretical exercise, you can now build further on this model to explore various directions.
I think the most usefull thing you could do with this model, is not to explore other theoretical directions, like calculating optimal timing for for every item in game, but calculating optimal timing for a specifically pre-defined sub-set of skills which were manually compiled.
For example you can easily compile manually sub-set of skills which are needed to train advanced amarr pvp purist, then plug those skills into your model and see whats the optimal character setup for that.
Equvalalently, you could compile similar sub-sets for other professions such as invention, trading, missioning runing
I'm sure you are more than knowledgable guy in terms of EVE game mechanics, however if you wanna have a chat about PVP sub-sets, im happy to have a word with you !
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.27 03:49:00 -
[17]
do note that some people are very wishy-washy with their own skills, and often jump from one specialty (either barely finished/midway/already done) to a totally different set of skills down the line for many reasons.
Havin a guide for a "generalist" is a very good contribution, because whilst you're gimping your specialist training a bit, you gain loads more in training in anything else.
For example, someone I know ingame is a nutcase. Wants everything to 5 before even flying the damn ship/s. If he knew about this guide before starting, it would have saved him time, and probably my sanity in trying to explain to him the error of his ways.
(WTF, you want Large Pulse Spec 5 before fitting T2 pulse?!)
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AltBier
Minmatar
Freelance Unincorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.27 15:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sinclair Chevalier
In my next article I will address some of these concerns and will apply my method to a few specific scenarios. Hopefully, this will prove more realistically applicable.
I look forward to reading it. 
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