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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:16:00 -
[241]
 Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/08/2008 14:39:40
Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Calling me a liar doesnt make it so. But if YOU cant build it, that makes u incompitant. Use EFT or something, use the ingame calulator, look at combinations of rigs and mods, its not rocket science. Soon you will be saying crazy things like that you cant make a Hype do 1500dps (well 1545dps actually) whilst tanking 250dps.
But you are right this is going way off the subject.
Dude. Look, this is the gist of this thread so far:
- Blaster ships cannot get into range effectively with the mass nerf
- The web nerf makes blaster tracking not sufficient
- Please fix.
Go read the entire thread and then you'll see why you're just making an ass (and liar) of yourself.
-Liang
Ed: Also, NO I did not meant to pollute this thread with Matari crap. I was just pointing out that Amarrian BS's (the apoc specifically) and lasers are OP (and yet he somehow cannot see this).
Sorry. This topic is very important to me... I *DO* have a Gallente blaster pilot too. :)
ok im not lying, im really not lying. Just use EFT if anything and check. Learn how to build ships.
And as i said in my last post. Yes we are way off topic and i left it there. Your making urself look like you cant use EFT or common sense.
Anyway, just look at Ship builds and experiment, and you shall see.
Ok on with the blaster talk.
No, you are lying. Stop it. You claimed there was a tempest fit that did 1000 dps, could fight at 30k, as well as tank 500 DPS. Then you posted a fit using hail (cannot fight at 30k) with a shield tank that DOESNT fit for cpu, (even with implants). Disregarding that the fit was nonsense and would be useless in combat, (no ability to close range, cap warfare, tackling, or ability to run its own tank for more than 30 seconds) you then proceeded to make up tracking stats (you were out by a factor of more than 50%) for blasters and pulses.
We all use EFT, and more, we actually test stuff on sisi and TQ. I'm actually pretty damn good at it, which is how I know, your claims are fictitious. Where you get the raw numbers right (which most of the time, in this thread, you have not, not even close) they're completely irrelevant to combat (e.g. how a tempest with no web or MWD gets close enough to use /hail and torps/). Stop lying.
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Mercenary Forces |
Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:18:00 -
[242]
Edited by: Mag''s on 01/08/2008 15:19:29
Originally by: OneSock
Surely also gimps PVE using webs to hit frigates. Rails never gonna track now. Didn't the kronos get a specific web bonus to do this ? gonna be useless bonus now.
The Kronos web bonus got changed on sisi too afaik, which brings it up to somewhere near TQ levels.
Edit: Spelling.
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus
One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:18:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
No, we didn't "forget" that the Apoc has no damage bonus. The fact that it outdamages a double damage bonused ship (The Tempest) in all possible situations highlights just how broken lasers really are.
A Rokh with blasters does the same. So *obviously* blasters are broken and overpowered lets nerf.
Apart from that up to 3km the pest will outdamage the apoc and that is if it decides not to fit launchers.
The only thing you see here is how crappy the pest is. Of course your answer is to nerf nerf and then some more. Way to go.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
TBH, I think it's really funny how you can not understand that the Apoc is the worst offender of the most overpowered battleship lineup on TQ. Once this patch hits, it'll be much worse.
There literally won't be any reason whatsoever to fly a Gallente or Minmatar BS.
Its true but again this shows how crappy that patch is. Not how "overpowered" lasers are under current tq conditions (which they are not). You take the crappiest bs line ingame (matari) to show how overpowered lasers are. Did you check the caldari bs? Or Gallente? Under current game mechanics those are very strong bs lineups that can compete with laserboats easily.
As for the patch it does indeed screw up matari and gallente bs. And that is just wrong. But of course instead of asking for fixes or an alteration of the patch you come here to ask for a laser nerf. Because we'll all be happy if only caldari bs are worth flying, eh? What a nice person you are.
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J Valkor
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:48:00 -
[244]
Originally by: MenanceWhite
Did you mean they're performing chainsaw surgery where only a scalpel really was needed?
No. It wasn't a scalpel solution. Nobody was using Afterburners. MWDs were considered required. Statis webs were also pretty damn powerful to the point that you had to have them. Gallente Recons were not used. Several types of smaller ships were, in fact, not used.
This type of change requires testing and instead of crying your infinite tears you could go on to the test server and provide REAL feed back.
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:55:00 -
[245]
Originally by: J Valkor
Originally by: MenanceWhite
Did you mean they're performing chainsaw surgery where only a scalpel really was needed?
No. It wasn't a scalpel solution. Nobody was using Afterburners. MWDs were considered required. Statis webs were also pretty damn powerful to the point that you had to have them. Gallente Recons were not used. Several types of smaller ships were, in fact, not used.
This type of change requires testing and instead of crying your infinite tears you could go on to the test server and provide REAL feed back.
The issue is, most people that has tested them in sis are telling its not OK! You can clearly see in sisis that in monday most ships were hacs in FFA1, today mornign for > 1 hour EVERY ship there was a battleship!
People tried tons of variations for vagabond, NOT A SINGLE ONE WORKS!
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:37:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Myra2007
Apart from that up to 3km the pest will outdamage the apoc and that is if it decides not to fit launchers.
Up to 3km neither one will be hitting anything. Even blasters have trouble hitting things that close. Don't be daft.
Quote:
The only thing you see here is how crappy the pest is. Of course your answer is to nerf nerf and then some more. Way to go.
Well, every time we make a thread about how broken "our" ships are, we get a hundred Amarrian responses telling us how powerful they are. Seriously, there have been around a dozen 10-30 page threads on the Tempest and Projectiles and this is all we ever see is Amarrian players dropping by with exactly his kind of utterly uninformed rubbish telling us how awesome our ships are because of property X.
Additionally, stating that something else is "overpowered" while asking for your own things to be boosted to be competitive in some way is generally asking for a "boost", not a "nerf". I realize that the difference can be hard for certain people to grasp.
Quote:
Its true but again this shows how crappy that patch is. Not how "overpowered" lasers are under current tq conditions (which they are not). You take the crappiest bs line ingame (matari) to show how overpowered lasers are. Did you check the caldari bs? Or Gallente? Under current game mechanics those are very strong bs lineups that can compete with laserboats easily.
I actually have Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar BS 5. I'm well versed in using all of these ships. Caldari, yes, can compete with the laser lineup (by virtue of the Raven and Scorpion), but Gallente gets stiffed slightly (even on TQ), and Minmatar is a joke. Once the patch hits, Gallente/Minmatar BS's simply will not be useful in the same sense that Amarr/Caldari BS's will be. But you freely acknowledge this (while your compatriot does not).
I must ask, though, if you've ever used blasters in a gang of any size whatsoever. You simply don't get any damage on the killmails because of travel time. I've been in Sabres that outdamaged blasterthrons because of this phenomenon. This is really the crux of why I believe the Amarr/Caldari BS lineup is doing so well on TQ: Their "power" either increases or stays constant in the face of gangs... while Gallente and Minmatar each become much less powerful and useful.
But that's fine right? The way it's supposed to be, right? Well, maybe. The kicker is that the style of combat these ship classes require is going away.
Quote:
But of course instead of asking for fixes or an alteration of the patch you come here to ask for a laser nerf. Because we'll all be happy if only caldari bs are worth flying, eh? What a nice person you are.
I was simply astounded that he could not see that the Amarrian BS lineup is amazingly powerful compared to Gallente and Minmatar (and getting much moreso with this patch). And yet he comes here spouting totally incorrect rubbish in an attempt to (successfully) derail this thread.
-Liang
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Drevia
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:43:00 -
[247]
Originally by: MenanceWhite
Originally by: J Valkor
No. They want to fix the roots of problems, not put band aids. Start testing and put up real critique.
Did you mean they're performing chainsaw surgery where only a scalpel really was needed?
No, we're talking about surgery on a blue whale here, not a gerbil.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:39:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Straight Chillen on 01/08/2008 17:44:47
Last night i did some further testing on this. I used my Main Straight Chillen in a Torp Raven, and My PVP alt in a Megathron.
Things to consider,
Straight Chillen is a jack of all trades, can use all ships upto BC, Gal Amarr & Caldari BS. The extent of my missiles skills are pathetic, and only note worthy of my missile skills are missile bombarment V and Missile launcher op V, for my stealth bombers, all in all under a million SP. Caldari BS 3, And the engineering skills to mount a t2 shield tank minus the t2 boost amp. Torpedos Rank I, So all in all about 6 months or so of training time.
Straight Hustlin is purely focused in Gallente PVP ships. Focused on Heavy hitting ships, most skills are focued on AF, HAC's and BS's. At the time of the test gunnery skills were about 4.8m SP's. Using T2 Heavy drones, and Best named Blasters(mirror didnt get my Motion Prediction V so i cant use T2 atm) Gal BS 4
Using the standard fittings i would use on TQ; that is to say no implants, or t2 rigs and other shit i cant afford to use consitantly were used. Standard Ammos as well.
This Fight Started at 50km appart. Well out of the optimal Range of both Ships. Mega, Begins approach on raven, whom is AB'n away. Mega Activates MWD to catch. Raven has deployed a flight of HH II's. It takes approx 70 seconds for me to reach the 30km mark, at which point the raven begins to unload torps on the mega.
At this point the mega is down to approx ~60% cap, and is still pushing to reach top speed. At 25km, 2/3 of the mega's shield is gone, Deploys Ogre II's, Warp Disrupter 2 activated, still burning to the target. Ogre II's begin lacing into the Raven, which begins returning fire on drones with small auto cannons. Mega is still closing, shields down, The real fighting begins, Tank Comes online, Reppers active.
I finally Make it into the mega's outer range >13km With dual Reps active, Cap Booster fireing, and only 20% capacitor left. Raven gets web, and quickly im right in the kill zone of >5km, my Blasters spitting out antimatter for all their worth, At this point ive had to revert to pulsing my MWD to conserve what little capacitor ive got left at this point. Unfortunatly this does not work for SHIT, and by the time i can activate my MWD again, the raven is out to about 12km.
At this point The mega is down to 2 drones, has 7 cap boosters left, 5 in the mod, 2 in the hold, Reppers running full time, and armor is still dropping, at approx 35%. Deciding to go for broke, the mega hits the MWD, and makes a mad dash to the Raven, Eatting 3 cap boosters on the way. Finally in range again, the mega opens up, a little bit of a lagspike delayed the activation of the raven's shield booster, a little damge bleeds through into armor, before the shields are boosted back up to a comfortable ammount. Mega slips into structure, outta cap boosters, the mega deactivates repps, to keep the DPS up, The Raven's tank cant handle the DPS and shields start failing, and bleeds through to armor, Mega Goes boom.
End result:
Mega Dead
Raven 65% armor left
Now from my perspective in the raven, It just seemed like clock work as usual, had it not been for the lag spike id imagine it wouldve had mabye 80-85% armor left instead of 65% left. Capacitor was never a problem, through careful use of Modulating Cap and Shield Boosters.
Bottom line:
Missile boats have it way to easy as it stands. Blasters are just not effective enough anymore, Even with the mega's tracking bonus. Essentially this fight shows that a 6 mill ish SP char can kill a char with approx 12m SP (going by skills are affecting the current ship) This has always been a great part of EVE. However, for such a thing to happen it should take skill, it shouldnt be nearly as simple as it currently stands. As the Mega had no chance in any of my tests, There is NO skill involved what so ever.
Join me next time as we test Blaster Rokh vs Mega, Whos the New Top Dog?
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Aya Vandenovich
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:50:00 -
[249]
Edited by: Aya Vandenovich on 01/08/2008 17:53:48
Edited by: Aya Vandenovich on 01/08/2008 17:52:27
Originally by: Straight Chillen
This Fight Started at 50km appart.
End result:
Mega Dead
Raven 65% armor left
I'd like to see the same fight done at 20K, approaching a long range ship in a short range ship from 50K is silly anyway. All you did was put the Raven in an optimal starting position and the Mega in a crap one.
From the SISI changes, the Gallente BS are, on average, lighter than those of other races. They would appear to be faster over short distances.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:59:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/08/2008 14:39:40
Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Calling me a liar doesnt make it so. But if YOU cant build it, that makes u incompitant. Use EFT or something, use the ingame calulator, look at combinations of rigs and mods, its not rocket science. Soon you will be saying crazy things like that you cant make a Hype do 1500dps (well 1545dps actually) whilst tanking 250dps.
But you are right this is going way off the subject.
Dude. Look, this is the gist of this thread so far:
- Blaster ships cannot get into range effectively with the mass nerf
- The web nerf makes blaster tracking not sufficient
- Please fix.
Go read the entire thread and then you'll see why you're just making an ass (and liar) of yourself.
-Liang
Ed: Also, NO I did not meant to pollute this thread with Matari crap. I was just pointing out that Amarrian BS's (the apoc specifically) and lasers are OP (and yet he somehow cannot see this).
Sorry. This topic is very important to me... I *DO* have a Gallente blaster pilot too. :)
ok im not lying, im really not lying. Just use EFT if anything and check. Learn how to build ships.
And as i said in my last post. Yes we are way off topic and i left it there. Your making urself look like you cant use EFT or common sense.
This proves you have absolutely NO idea wtf you are going on about, EFT is not eve, And for some reason everyone who trying to fight this seems to think that the numbers actually have some kind of relevence.
Think about it like this, While a rookie in the police academy can list all the proceduers and doctrines to follow, when say some one pulls a gun on them, They do not have the Experience, of being in that situation; the panic, the rush everything that cannot be quantified or accounted for in text book format. That is why vet's who've been in that situation know how to handle them best, and most of them will tell you **** SOP.
If you want to play a game where the numbers are everything, and u can instantly figure out a fight by using a calculator, get a pad and a pencil and go play D&D.
tl;dr Your EFT numbers add up to one thing, Your noob factor.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:03:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Aya Vandenovich
Edited by: Aya Vandenovich on 01/08/2008 17:53:48
Edited by: Aya Vandenovich on 01/08/2008 17:52:27
Originally by: Straight Chillen
This Fight Started at 50km appart.
End result:
Mega Dead
Raven 65% armor left
I'd like to see the same fight done at 20K, approaching a long range ship in a short range ship from 50K is silly anyway. All you did was put the Raven in an optimal starting position and the Mega in a crap one.
From the SISI changes, the Gallente BS are, on average, lighter than those of other races. They would appear to be faster over short distances.
Ive done it from ranges varying from 70km to 0km warpin. Oddly the 50km test ended with the most significant dmg to the raven, and I would assume this was due to the lag spike delaying the Shield booster.
Which is kinda a point in itself. Everyone *****ed about how for the most part the only way to kill a nano was if he ****ed up, Now if forsee this being the case with Missile boats.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:04:00 -
[252]
That was a nonsense test. You can't conclude anything from it, because it's not representative of TQ at all.
Active tanked Mega?
Active tanked Raven?
50 km start range? Gates dump you 12-16 km away.
AB on the Raven? It'll be MWD or nothing.
Actually, in the imaginary 1v1 that you described, the Raven bloody well ought to win if the fight starts at 50 km. Try it with something sensible, like jump-in range - 12-16 km, and with PVP fits.
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Dzajic
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:10:00 -
[253]
Edited by: Dzajic on 01/08/2008 18:11:43
Originally by: Straight Chillen
snip lenghty test
I think you really overdid it by starting on such extreme range.
Have you tried overloading MWD on initial approach? (if you have thermodynamics, that is)
Also, it would be very, very beneficial to the subject if you tested:
fight starting at 30, 20 and 10km;
Mega overloading mwd, Raven overloading AB;
Raven with MWD (somehow  );
all of above vs. Gedon or Abadon.
Edit. Sorry, didn't see your 18:03 post.
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:36:00 -
[254]
To save close range ships:
1. unnerf MWD acceleration
2. make MWD to use less cap (-20%)
Blasters:
+ 5km optipal (L)
+ 100% tracking
+ 20% dps
Autocannons:
+ 10% dps
+ 70% tracking
Pulse:
+ 5% dps
+ 70% tracking
- 30% cap usage
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Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:38:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Straight Chillen on 01/08/2008 18:39:28
Originally by: Gypsio III
Active tanked Mega?
DCU II Explo Hardner II, 2x LAR 2xEANM 1x MagStab not much active about taht.
Originally by: Gypsio III
Active tanked Raven?
same as my 0.0 ratting raven, but with omni tank instead of dmg specific.
{EDIT} with the tractor/salvager swapped for 2x 200mm auto cannons.
Originally by: Gypsio III
50 km start range? Gates dump you 12-16 km away.
this test in my eyes more simulates trying to catch a lone ratter in a belt, i dont know what the gates have anything to do with, the raven could be 50km off the gate couldnt it?
Originally by: Gypsio III
AB on the Raven? It'll be MWD or nothing.
Then give me the setup you'd like me to test.
Originally by: Gypsio III
Actually, in the imaginary 1v1 that you described, the Raven bloody well ought to win if the fight starts at 50 km. Try it with something sensible, like jump-in range - 12-16 km, and with PVP fits.
Look up a bit, i tried dropping the mega at 0, and still got it blown away, The mega was fit for PVP in the same way i would fit for solo/small gang action, buffer tanks are only usefull for large fleets where u can get RR support. Had it been plated, i wouldve been even slower, and most likely wouldnt have even gotten into range.
But yeah, a ratting raven can solo a pvp fit mega with little troubles, and thats just wrong.
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The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:10:00 -
[256]
Thx for Testing @Straight Chillen and providing some more numbers. I also like the way it was written down and it is also the thing i experienced at the Cruiser and BS Level(Thorax, Mega in particuar).
Also like that people still use oldschool Activetanks on the Mega(i do to in my Navy Mega).
Bottem line:
Cap use to cover range to the target increased quite a bit.
Time to cover range increased to a amount that is not realy acceptalbe for the Blaster ship.
Because of the reactivation delay on the MWD and the weaker Web it is fare harder to hold your target in a good position, any experienced Pilote will try to outrange you and you canŠt realy effective stop him, even if he donŠt have a AB or a MWD fitted.
I think this are the core Problems, 1&2 are a drawback, but not realy as big as Nr. 3 that actualy gets the Blaster Ship killed within Web Range.
----
Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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NerfMyBarge
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:43:00 -
[257]
Edited by: NerfMyBarge on 01/08/2008 19:43:45
Originally by: Titan Pilot
A couple of points of mention
1. 1100 to 800 m/s is hardly a nerf. Big whoopie do. Your slow ass BS is a slow ass BS...
2. Blaster ships have always had tracking problems. Tracking links, tracking computers are your friends...shesh, large guns, 5k range, what did you expect?
3. Fitting cap injectors are common in many setups. If it means fitting one on your Deimos so you can use it, then I guess you should fit one 
4. Congratulations on telling CCP that HAMs are overpowered. Enjoy your HAM Cerb until the next patch 
haha, on the deimos, do you switch the afterburner/mwd, the point or the web? 
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:50:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Hexor V
Originally by: Solomon XI
I logged onto SiSi earlier to test out a Deimos. What a ****ing joke.
I demand the immediate resignation of all CCP developers involved in the concoction of this epically failed patch idea.
I have spent the last 9 months training Gallente for the express purpose of flying an Astarte and Deimos for PvP and CCP is screwing me, and many others, over by this patch. CCP needs to smarten the **** up.
Would you like some whiiiiine with that cheese there?
Are your ships still usable? Yes
Is CCP attempting to fix a game imbalance? Yes
Two words for all on this hype: Test Server.
I demand the immediate opening of a can of Shut the hell up and also demand constructive posts rather than WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
You're a ****ing idiot. Shut the **** up and never talk again.
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Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:05:00 -
[259]
Also, somewhere on the first few pages someone spewed some vomit about what they think a Deimos (or blaster boat in general) should have fit (cap booster and MWD ANNNNDDD AB, leaving no tackle gear at all). that person needs to die immediately. How dare you try to negate something someone who actually FLYs the ships in question has said, ESPECIALLY when i know for a fact that anything you field against the likes of Bellum and gang, you will be killed immediately.
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Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:08:00 -
[260]
right for those wondering, about the build. People seem to be wondering about not enough CPU.
I did make a mistake in one bit, coz when i went back to check it, didnt work (not the cpu bit) i had to restart my program to fix it. The issue was Hail ammo. The name didnt reset. Reset the program and yay. Barrage. 30km falloff.
(Pricy build)DPS=993, Tank:EM=706/ Therm=520/ Kin=693/ Exp=831 /overall=668
Drones:Hammerhead IIx5
Low:
Co processor T2 x2
Dommi Gryo x3
BSC x2
Mid:
invul field T2 x3
Photon Scattering Field T2
X-Larg Shield Boost II
High:
800mm Autoncanon T2 x6
Siege Launcher T2 x2
Rig:
Projectile Collision Accellorator TI
Core Defenc Operational Solidifier TI
Implants:
gonme KZA1000
Gunslinger CX-2
Cheaper build:mostly the same so i will only put the different mods down.
DPS=955/ Tank: EM/641 Therm/471 Kin/628 Exp/754
Low:
gyro T2 x3
BSC T2 x 1
Co - Processor x2
mid:
X-Large C5-L energy shield overload TI
also you can change the build here and there to chuck a MWD or capbooster in (though massive cap drain. but doesnt hurt Tank too much) or (nurf thank to glorified buffer to add both)
-------------------------------
bring back Eve TV |
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Dzajic
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:15:00 -
[261]
Sooo, how do you pirate in a ship without MWD, web and point? Even if you had a alt tackling, BS without and propulsion mods isnt going anywhere.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:27:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Dzajic
Sooo, how do you pirate in a ship without MWD, web and point? Even if you had a alt tackling, BS without and propulsion mods isnt going anywhere.
im more curious to see how exactly that setup works with no kind of capacitor recharge...
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VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:31:00 -
[263]
Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 01/08/2008 20:33:54
For some reason I had already trained up Gallente Cruiser V on sisi, so I was able to test out the astarte...
Everything Bellum/others that actually fly combat have said is correct. Acceleration/speed is too damn slow, you use too much cap getting to the target. Then your web is ineffective and you have tracking issues on a smaller hull. Then the targets keep getting out of optimal and you have to pulse MWD and use even more cap. It really is a joke. If this crap goes through there will be no reason to fly most gallente/minmatar ships.
Now since my last post on this subject was summarily deleted since CCP likes to crush any/all dissent(and will never admit to being wrong) I'll use this thread to expand a bit. Maybe since Bellum is a pretty smart guy they will actually read some of this before they delete it.
I also tested my ships that I actually like to use(I gave up on gallente ages ago since I saw the nerf coming even before the nos nerf and drone nerf). On nearly all of my ships I use no speed mods or rigs at all. My broadsword is about 230m/s slower with only MWD and no speed mods/rigs involved. My (buffer tanked/extender rigged) rapier is about 250m/s with no speed mods at all. Neither are nanoships in any way.
Both ships accelerate a hell of a lot slower, making them far less effective tacklers(tackling is 99% of the game). They are also a hell of a lot more vulnerable... While they don't use any form of nano, it is usually a good idea to stay out of web range in most fights and without the ability to pulse the MWD that is a good deal harder. You have to stay further away and hope you don't end up out of range. This removes variety and encourages people to fly tankier ships.
Then the issue of webs. One of the biggest strengths of the rapier was the ability to lock down 2 targets at once. That is no longer an option with a standard buffer type setup. The falcon can currently permajam 4 BS! The gallente recons will be able to lock down many ships at once. All the recons should be useful, and I wouldn't really see a reason to bring a minmatar recon to most engagements without the same web ability.
There is going to be little reason to fly anything other than Amarr/Caldari. The whiners will simply complain AGAIN once everyone is flying a bunch of slaved Abaddons with falcon/logistics support in massively laggy blobs, even in low sec. There is no way that dumbing down the gameplay and removing variety/choice is going to improve the game in any way. Most of us were drawn to this game by the sheer complexity and making it a simpler game will only alienate veteran pilots while pleasing transient noobs who have yet to leave the game and will likely leave before they learn it, giving way to the next generation of whiners until the game is like all the fruity MMO's that make MMO a creepy, dirty acronym.
If the goal of this is to curb nanos it goes way to far, screwing over any ship that needs a MWD, and any ship that uses close range weapons. And back to the subject of nanos- I never fly a nanoship but I find it easy and satisfying to kill them. They don't need much change, the damn game is more fun with variety and something that will challenge a new/stupid player once and again.
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Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:32:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Dzajic
Sooo, how do you pirate in a ship without MWD, web and point? Even if you had a alt tackling, BS without and propulsion mods isnt going anywhere.
i said you can build the ship. People said you cant. I didnt say it was for pirating. There are situations it can be used. And added at the bottom i did say you can change bits to suit you. It not an uber build, but depending on a situation it can be usful. Same way that sometimes building a BS without any local rep is useful, depending on the situation.
Anyway as its been stated already, this is off subject. The build is there now because people couldnt figure out the cpu issue. ( I really thought the issue would have been that i tyoed in the wrong ammo type -thanks for pointing that out btw-)
Also i dont pirate, just kill pirates.
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bring back Eve TV |
Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:54:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Straight Chillen
Originally by: Dzajic
Sooo, how do you pirate in a ship without MWD, web and point? Even if you had a alt tackling, BS without and propulsion mods isnt going anywhere.
im more curious to see how exactly that setup works with no kind of capacitor recharge...
Some Amarr builds suffer from cap only lasting 2mins, so they have to tank and kill before that coz the guns will go dry and the ship goes dead. Resists and plate work as a buffer to stagger the cap drain and give you more time, but the main stay is that you gotta put the guy down in 2mins.
This could work in that way. Difference being that there is a bit of a buffer when the cap runs out (30secs maybe- it can be alot). Also one thing it can do that Amarr cant, is keep firing when the cap dies. But with imagination and team work this build can be useful.
If your all looking for an uber build, then you probably have to buy officer gear and use some imagination. But regardless, enough jamming and nos and your screwed.
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bring back Eve TV |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.08.01 21:01:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
right for those wondering, about the build. People seem to be wondering about not enough CPU.
1) The fit you posted, including implants, still gives me 856.97 / 756.25 cpu
2) Against unified damage, 573 dps peak tank
3) Cap lasts for 1m35s, total tanked damage is a bit under 99k (if you take more than 573 dps, which is likely against another battleship)
4) The torps hit nothing at 30km, they have a max range of 20km, or more like 18km realistically
5) 30km is in falloff. You can get nice graphs about that with ctrl-D in EFT. At 30km, we're talking about 630 dps (with drones), 690 dps with 2/2/1 max damage drone fit.
7) Apocalypse (8x MPL II / 24km scram, 2x web, 1x sensor booster / 3x plate, DCU II, 3x HS II / 3x trimark / 2,2,1 drones - note the lack of faction gear): 979 dps out to 21km, 823 out to 60km (optimal is 62km, but drones only go to 60km), 99.6k EHP.
8) Maelstrom (8x 800mm II / X-L II, SBA II, 3x Invul II, Photon field II / 4x domi gyro, PDU II / op solidifier, charge economizer, ambit extension / 4x Ogre II): 1082 dps close-range (1207 dps with RF EMP L), 845 dps at 30km, 1047 dps peak tank for 1m38s (164.6k tanked hp). No reason to use a Tempest for this fit.
9) And just before anyone says "Minmatar > Amarr" because the Mael out-damages the Apoc there: Abaddon (8x MPL II / heavy cap booster II, 2x web II, 1x 24km scram / 4x TS Heatsink II, 2x 1600mm RT, 1x EANM II / 3x trimark / 2,2,1 drones): 1295 dps out to 15km, 1075 dps to 45km, 106.7k tanked hp, cap stable until you run out of boosters.
Could we now please get away from the sorry state of the Tempest and get back to the sorry state of blaster boats?
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Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.01 21:22:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
right for those wondering, about the build. People seem to be wondering about not enough CPU.
1) The fit you posted, including implants, still gives me 856.97 / 756.25 cpu
2) Against unified damage, 573 dps peak tank
3) Cap lasts for 1m35s, total tanked damage is a bit under 99k (if you take more than 573 dps, which is likely against another battleship)
4) The torps hit nothing at 30km, they have a max range of 20km, or more like 18km realistically
5) 30km is in falloff. You can get nice graphs about that with ctrl-D in EFT. At 30km, we're talking about 630 dps (with drones), 690 dps with 2/2/1 max damage drone fit.
7) Apocalypse (8x MPL II / 24km scram, 2x web, 1x sensor booster / 3x plate, DCU II, 3x HS II / 3x trimark / 2,2,1 drones - note the lack of faction gear): 979 dps out to 21km, 823 out to 60km (optimal is 62km, but drones only go to 60km), 99.6k EHP.
8) Maelstrom (8x 800mm II / X-L II, SBA II, 3x Invul II, Photon field II / 4x domi gyro, PDU II / op solidifier, charge economizer, ambit extension / 4x Ogre II): 1082 dps close-range (1207 dps with RF EMP L), 845 dps at 30km, 1047 dps peak tank for 1m38s (164.6k tanked hp). No reason to use a Tempest for this fit.
9) And just before anyone says "Minmatar > Amarr" because the Mael out-damages the Apoc there: Abaddon (8x MPL II / heavy cap booster II, 2x web II, 1x 24km scram / 4x TS Heatsink II, 2x 1600mm RT, 1x EANM II / 3x trimark / 2,2,1 drones): 1295 dps out to 15km, 1075 dps to 45km, 106.7k tanked hp, cap stable until you run out of boosters.
Could we now please get away from the sorry state of the Tempest and get back to the sorry state of blaster boats?
you know what, I actually give up on you.
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bring back Eve TV |
Tetsuo Hourai
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Posted - 2008.08.01 21:55:00 -
[268]
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 01/08/2008 21:56:54
Edited by: Tetsuo Hourai on 01/08/2008 21:55:09
Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
right for those wondering, about the build. People seem to be wondering about not enough CPU.
1) The fit you posted, including implants, still gives me 856.97 / 756.25 cpu
2) Against unified damage, 573 dps peak tank
3) Cap lasts for 1m35s, total tanked damage is a bit under 99k (if you take more than 573 dps, which is likely against another battleship)
4) The torps hit nothing at 30km, they have a max range of 20km, or more like 18km realistically
5) 30km is in falloff. You can get nice graphs about that with ctrl-D in EFT. At 30km, we're talking about 630 dps (with drones), 690 dps with 2/2/1 max damage drone fit.
7) Apocalypse (8x MPL II / 24km scram, 2x web, 1x sensor booster / 3x plate, DCU II, 3x HS II / 3x trimark / 2,2,1 drones - note the lack of faction gear): 979 dps out to 21km, 823 out to 60km (optimal is 62km, but drones only go to 60km), 99.6k EHP.
8) Maelstrom (8x 800mm II / X-L II, SBA II, 3x Invul II, Photon field II / 4x domi gyro, PDU II / op solidifier, charge economizer, ambit extension / 4x Ogre II): 1082 dps close-range (1207 dps with RF EMP L), 845 dps at 30km, 1047 dps peak tank for 1m38s (164.6k tanked hp). No reason to use a Tempest for this fit.
9) And just before anyone says "Minmatar > Amarr" because the Mael out-damages the Apoc there: Abaddon (8x MPL II / heavy cap booster II, 2x web II, 1x 24km scram / 4x TS Heatsink II, 2x 1600mm RT, 1x EANM II / 3x trimark / 2,2,1 drones): 1295 dps out to 15km, 1075 dps to 45km, 106.7k tanked hp, cap stable until you run out of boosters.
Could we now please get away from the sorry state of the Tempest and get back to the sorry state of blaster boats?
you know what, I actually give up on you.
hahahaha cause he's right and has done the math and numbers? die. indeed back to the blaster boats. the mwd is the biggest and worst offender in the proposed patch, the scram change coming in second and the slower top speed of every ship is just stupid. my vote is stacking penalized propulsion upgrade modules, (int stab, ods, nanofibs) and leave it at that. increa top speed for cepters (if stacking nerf makes them too slow) and decrease base speed on vaga, for a lower possible top speed. the LEAVE EVE ALONE!
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The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.01 22:23:00 -
[269]
Edited by: The Djego on 01/08/2008 22:31:21
Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai
LEAVE EVE ALONE!
Well yes, but no on the other hand. After testing mutch, I became preaty catchy with some new Options, especialy the ability to shut down MWDs, is pure win on smaller Ships, the boost of smaller ships vs larger in general, also giving a AB a role next to beeing the "fit for PVE" module. Range becomes a fare more important game Element to, aswell as the diffrence between a Short Range and a Medium Range able Ship.
We got a new kind of EvE and many new options. You are absolutly right that a stacking on Speed Mods will make eve more balanced in the Nano area, hands down, the missing stacking is the core problem here.
Now, i personaly would wellcome some of the changes, with a bit more tweaking, may be some "out of order" changes to specialiced Ships(like Ceptors, Blaster Ships, Tacklers, etc.)
Core question, taking the change with a very big amout of tweaking needet(this goes right to CCP, our testing, and testing possible solutions). Our simply fix Nano and leave everting else like it is(yes some of the changes fix things that are broken as long as I play EvE, like a AFs for example).
Im against any nerf related to Solo PVP(where Blaster ships are a very big part off), blobing(realy nerf blobbing, it is overpowert  ) in general(this will kill the fun in the end), but this is the biggest Change to eve since I play and can be called as the best in a longe time, if everthing works out and is not that kind of overdone as it is right now.
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Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.01 22:36:00 -
[270]
Originally by: PeHD0M
I think all of you know that ccp will not change this "new feature" of scramlers.. they will simply not listen, like it was with mirmydon.
So, it is time to train drake\raven. Gallante blaster ships are now dead. Welcome to the nerflandia.
What exactly's wrong with the myrm on TQ atm that CCP didn't listen about, letting it have 125 drone bandwidth?
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