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[issue]turret vs missiles training times

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Kalintos Tyl	Posted - 2008.07.26 15:21:00 - [1] Turret users should be liek missile users. If someone wants to train cruise misiles he trains crusie misiles and nothing else. Not this wa with turet. Had large hybrid and want large laser? Die loser training slow and medoium energy turrets. Dont talk about secondery skills becouse guns get same amount of secondery skills like missiles. Turets should be easier to train or misiles tree updated to reflet training as in turets. So torpedos would need heavy assaults t2, crusie misiles t2 would need heavy missiles t2. heavy assault/heaby misiles would need rockets t2.
Gajowy	Posted - 2008.07.26 15:30:00 - [2] Edited by: Gajowy on 26/07/2008 15:30:08 signed
Dzajic Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.26 16:09:00 - [3] Supported. Missile skills are a joke. For a time I considered training for freaking Raven for missions (no gameplay there anyway, just grinding for cash, so why not do it in efficient way), thankfully I saw the wrongness of training for Raven and gave up. But I saw that I could T2 fit a Raven (tank and gank) in less time than I would need just for T2 medium hybrids. For Christs sake CCP, why do Caldari really have to be able to do everything the easy way? Dont simplify gun training. Getting full T2 weapons in month or two is stupid. Rework T2 BS missile weapon skills so they need all lesser skills. And hear the wines of all Caldari sheep.
Dubh Sidhe Sidhe Industries Aegis Consortium	Posted - 2008.07.26 16:10:00 - [4] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 26/07/2008 15:34:41 Turret users should be treated same as missile users. If someone wants to train cruise misiles he trains crusie misiles and nothing else.Lets see someone had large hybrid and want large laser? Die loser training slow all turets from small to large. Dont talk about secondery skills becouse guns get same amount of secondery skills like missiles. Turets should be easier to train or misiles tree updated to reflet training as in turets. So torpedos would need heavy assaults t2, crusie misiles t2 would need heavy missiles t2. heavy assault/heavy misiles would need rockets t2. Makes sense to me. Though I don't think it would be a good idea to force missile specs just to be able to train the next higher spec. My thoughts are: Rocket 4 -> Standard Standard 4 -> Heavy & Heavy assault Heavy 4 -> Cruise Heavy assault 4 -> torps after that folks can train to whatever specs they desire.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.07.26 17:45:00 - [5] Turrets are easier to train, you moron. Did you even look at the lengths of the missile and gunnery skill trees?
Gajowy	Posted - 2008.07.26 17:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Gypsio III Turrets are easier to train, you moron. Did you even look at the lengths of the missile and gunnery skill trees? Moron compare skill requirements of t2 siege launcher with for example large hybrid turret t2
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.07.26 17:58:00 - [7] That's an idiotic comparison. You're comparing the training time to use a single weapon system (T2 torps) vs. the training time to use three (T2 small, medium and large turret) Here are the sums of the skill ranks of the skill trees, split into weapons and support skills: Missile weapon skills: 50 Missile support skills: 26 (24 if you exclude Defenders) Turret weapon skills: 41 Gunnery support skills: 18 QED.
Gajowy	Posted - 2008.07.26 18:02:00 - [8] Yeah and why I cannot just train large blasters without learning small, medium and support skills, as you can do with torpedos?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.07.26 18:10:00 - [9] Because that's the price you pay for having a shorter skill tree. In any case, the ability to go straight to, say, T2 torps really isn't that much of an advantage, especially in PVP. Any serious missile user trains the other skills anyway, normally first - because you can't use torps on smaller ships.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.26 18:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Gypsio III Because that's the price you pay for having a shorter skill tree. In any case, the ability to go straight to, say, T2 torps really isn't that much of an advantage, especially in PVP. Any serious missile user trains the other skills anyway, normally first - because you can't use torps on smaller ships. you have no clue i see what we talking about here.

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.07.26 18:55:00 - [11] Oh, I think I do. You didn't have a clue about the realities of the skill trees. You're not content with turrets being easier to train for, or the gunnery support skills applying to all turret skill trees. Neither are you interested in game balance. You just want to whine until things are made easier for you. Well, carry on.
techzer0 Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:22:00 - [12] I support this change... kinda half-heartedly. I fly minmatar and I have to train both missiles and turrets to be effective... With missiles the way they are now it cuts down on my training time A LOT, although I still think it's b0rked ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar!
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:36:00 - [13] Originally by: techzer0 btw, to the guy arguing that it's shorter for guns.... Just the base skills to get T2 large arty and T2 ammo takes 78 days. To train into BS sized missiles (torps) with no prior skills and using T2 ammo... it will take you 30 days. As explained previously, it's a silly comparison. You should be comparing the training times to get T2 large Arty with the training time for T2 Cruise, T2 HAMs, T2 Heavies, T2 Rockets and T2 Standards... then add the requisite support skills on top as well.
Ava Santiago Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.26 20:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: techzer0 btw, to the guy arguing that it's shorter for guns.... Just the base skills to get T2 large arty and T2 ammo takes 78 days. To train into BS sized missiles (torps) with no prior skills and using T2 ammo... it will take you 30 days. As explained previously, it's a silly comparison. You should be comparing the training times to get T2 large Arty with the training time for T2 Cruise, T2 HAMs, T2 Heavies, T2 Rockets and T2 Standards... then add the requisite support skills on top as well. Except that there are a lot of us that would never fire rockets. So why add them? Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts.
Kalintos Tyl	Posted - 2008.07.26 21:31:00 - [15] why i want to suport this change. nearly 3x time slowertraining in misiles. Caldari fanboys just will whine that it is bad...
ranna sleeper Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.26 21:44:00 - [16] so basicly what you're saying is you want to be able to train all your gunnery skills in the same time it'd take to train all missle skills? lets brake it down here shall we? missles: launcher opperation rocket light missles assault missles heavy missles heavy assult missles cruise missles torps gunnery: small medium large seems to me like there's MORE missle skills to have to train than gunnery... what you're asking is to be able to train 2 race's worth the guns in the time it takes to train 1 race's missle skills (counting out minmatar from this since they use both), sounds quite logical to me. so what you have to train up specialization of smalls to get mediums, and mediums to get larges, suck it up, you have 3 GUN TYPES missles have 6 not even couting the "inbetween" ones like assault and heavy assault. lets look at skill ranks for a sec small projectile: rank 1 small spec: rank 3 medium projectile: rank 3 medium spec: rank 5 large projectile: rank 5 large spec: rank 8 missles: launcher op: rank 1 rockets: rank 1 rocket spec: rank 3 standard missles: rank 2 standard missle spec: rank 3 heavy missles: rank 3 heavy missle spec: rank 5 heavy assault: rank 3 heavy assault spec: rank 5 cruise: rank 5 cruise spec: rank 8 torp: rank 5 torp spec: rank 8 seems balanced to me, the only difference is we dont need to train up the tree's to get the specs, so if you're only shooting for 1 type of t2 gun then yea missles get their t2 faster, HOWEVER if you're looking to max out ALL weapons for a specfic race, guns are done alot faster the missles, not to mention the 6-7 support skills you need for missles just so they actually do any kind of damage to a non-stationary target, not to mention with gunnery if you can use t2 autocannons you can use fair damage t1 artys. however just because you can use t2 torps, dosnt mean you can even use cruise. guns get a STATIC bonus to both long range and short range guns prior to hitting the spec skills, however missles require you to train up each skill seperatly from the others, so to summarize this all, SUCK IT UP -------------------- (thanks to fragito for the sig) please note my comments and thoughts are my own and
Kransthow Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.26 23:06:00 - [17] Edited by: Kransthow on 26/07/2008 23:14:48 Edited by: Kransthow on 26/07/2008 23:08:01 Originally by: ranna sleeper lets look at skill ranks for a sec gunnery: rank 1 small projectile: rank 1 small auto spec: rank 3 small artie spec: rank 3 medium projectile: rank 3 medium auto spec: rank 5 medium artie spec: rank 5 large projectile: rank 5 large auto spec: rank 8 large artie spec: rank 8 missles: launcher op: rank 1 rockets: rank 1 rocket spec: rank 3 standard missles: rank 2 standard missle spec: rank 3 heavy missles: rank 3 heavy missle spec: rank 5 heavy assault: rank 3 heavy assault spec: rank 5 cruise: rank 5 cruise spec: rank 8 torp: rank 5 torp spec: rank 8 fyp Originally by: ranna sleeper not to mention the 6-7 support skills gunnery, surgical strike, motion prediction, controlled bursts, rapid firing, sharp shooter and trajectory analysis ITT: caldari***s show their ignorance of turret weapon systems My alt is "Is Forporn"
ranna sleeper Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.27 00:28:00 - [18] Originally by: Kransthow gunnery, surgical strike, motion prediction, controlled bursts, rapid firing, sharp shooter and trajectory analysis ITT: caldari*s show their ignorance of turret weapon systems i DO know gunnery, what w/ my pvp char being minmatar and all, however shows your IGNORANCE when talking about non-gunnery. but since you had to open your mouth lets compare support skills too gunnery: gunnery- rate of fire surgical strike- damage motion prediction- tracking speed controlled bursts- cap need rapid firing- rate of fire sharp shooter- range trajectory analysis- falloff so that's 1 skill to affect chance to hit, 2 for rate of fire, 1 for damage, 2 for range, and 1 for cap need. missles: guided missile precision- decrease sig factor missile bombardment- flight time missile projection- missile speed rapid launch- rate of fire target nav prediction- targets speed factor** warhead upgrades- damage launcher operation- rate of fire so that's 2 that reduce the PENALTIES applied to missile damage because of target speed and size, 2 for range, 2 for rof, and 1 for damage. SO, for a rank 2 skill you get at most 25% bonus to tracking. and for missiles you have a rank 2 skill for explosion velocity (to offset targets speed)and A RANK 5 SKILL that only works on SOME missiles to offset the target size. stop your forum whineing and get over it, gunnery and missiles are balanced, if you dont like it why dont you train up missiles and see just how long it takes to get decent pvp damage with them scrub -------------------- (thanks to fragito for the sig) please note my comments and thoughts are my own and
Mahke Carrion Crows	Posted - 2008.07.27 01:42:00 - [19] As someone who started as a missile user and transitioned to gunnery, do not support. Missiles offer faster training to whatever one you need, and less SP overall, but, in return it's significantly harder to crosstrain with them and they are just not quite as good as turrets once maxed out, even if its easier to get there. Turrets had the edge before the speed nerf; now that there will be less ships the missiles can't catch, they will be roughly balanced, with the very thing that you are complaining about being one of the benefits for missiles that MAKES them balanced.
Nikita Alterana Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:04:00 - [20] supporting Caldari nerf __________________________________________________

Silence Duegood	Posted - 2008.07.27 03:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Gypsio III Turrets are easier to train, you moron. Did you even look at the lengths of the missile and gunnery skill trees? QFT. The op is clueless. Do not support.
Jennifer Celeste	Posted - 2008.07.27 05:24:00 - [22] Edited by: Jennifer Celeste on 27/07/2008 05:25:12 Originally by: Kalintos Tyl If someone wants to train cruise misiles he trains crusie misiles and nothing else. um what? Check Again?
GrandDad Trotter	Posted - 2008.07.27 07:05:00 - [23] signed
WishBlade Caldari Atomic Heroes Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.27 08:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Jennifer Celeste Edited by: Jennifer Celeste on 27/07/2008 05:25:12 Originally by: Kalintos Tyl If someone wants to train cruise misiles he trains crusie misiles and nothing else. um what? Check Again? And THAT! right there is pure QFT! Seems you do need other missile skills, and support to use missiles. To be specific, you need skills to use guns, not ammo. And you don't need anything too specific to use launchers, but you do need an equal-to-guns skill tree to use missiles. Even the standard ones. So, in order to use cruise missiles I have to train light, and heavy missiles. But after those requirements we're left with the same 2-way training as guns. Either to spec in light, heavy, cruie, or torpedoes versus your puls/beam, blaster/rail, arty/auto spec, orwe're left with only limited size to shoot out, and, thus, limited size to shoot at. As a T2 blaster/rail, and various missile user I can't support this. I had to train more to shoot 3 sizes of T2 missiles, than for guns. Signature
Manfred Rickenbocker The Elliance Delta.Green	Posted - 2008.07.28 15:16:00 - [25] Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 28/07/2008 15:27:46 I don't necessarily support this, but you guys need to clean up your arguments. T2 Cruise Missiles: ------------------- Launcher Operation: 5 Standard Missiles: 3 Heavy Missiles: 3 Cruise Missiles: 5 Cruise Spec.: 1 T2 Large Gun type (Rails are ranged equivalent to cruise missiles) -------------------- Gunnery: 5 Sharpshooter: 5 Small Hybrid: 5 Small Rail Spec: 4 Medium Hybrid: 5 Medium Rail Spec: 4 Large Hybrid: 5 Large Rail Spec: 1 So, T2 rails already have more skills, and higher level requirements than missiles. Ok, now lets add another missile/gun type Torpedoes: ---------- Torpedoes: 5 Torpedo Spec.: 1 Large Blasters (Torps are short range) --------------- Motion Prediction: 5 Small Blaster Spec.: 4 Med. Blaster Spec.: 4 Large Blaster Spec.: 1 Gee, rather complicated to add just a second hybrid type. Ok, now lets add another gun tree entirely: T2 Lasers (Beam and Pulse) --------------------- Small Lasers: 5 Medium Lasers: 5 Large Lasers: 5 Small Beam Spec: 4 Small Pulse Spec: 4 Med. Beam Spec: 4 Med. Pulse Spec: 4 Large Beam Spec: 1 Large Pulse Spec: 1 Its a tricky argument, problem is you can only argue within one gun tree, and missiles DONT REQUIRE SUPPORT SKILLS to get T2. Not to mention some of you fail to remember that Weapon Upgrades and Adv. Weapon Upgrades applies to BOTH missile launchers and guns (even though its in the gun tree). I can see how this would be a valid solution: Maybe tacking on some support skills as additional missile requirements to get to T2 would be fair. Messing with their ranks would be stupid because they are already on-par. And if T2 Cruise/Torp require standard and heavy missiles to train, then they should probably have their T2 to 4 as a prereq. like guns. Edit: BTW, this is WITHOUT support skills. This is just to obtain, fit, and field the discussed weapon types. When you add in support skills you open a whole new can of worms in my book. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Aristreia Saelorn	Posted - 2008.07.28 16:15:00 - [26] If everyone wants to have missile training time increased then missiles should obviously be buffed to compensate for the longer training times. What most people fail to realize is what these skills grant. Tech II gunnery skills grant you a DPS bonus through damage. Tech II Missile skills grant you a rate of fire bonus that increases your DPS by 1-8 at level 4. It isn't really that amazing, is it? A 2% rate of fire bonus vs a 3% DPS bonus. I'd rather have each of my missiles do more damage then have to waste more of them to try to achieve the DPS turrets are able to dish out. Missiles are not the OMGWTF OP weapon systems people give them credit to be. They're hardly passable in PvP sans some very special circumstances, and they're only used in PvE due to being able to choose your damage type, and yet Caldari ships are still pigeon-holed into using mainly Kinetic, or they have a wasted bonus. Using missiles in PvE is as fun as pulling teeth. They fly so slowly that it takes FOREVER for them to get to their targets, you often waste an entire volley of missiles because they don't impact and do damage before you start to fire again, and all those missiles are lost. Missiles tend to not always reach their target in the first place. Their maximum range is a joke, considering that it depends on how quickly they accelerate. If they accelerate slowly then normal, they wont reach their maximum distance. Yes missiles do damage no matter the range, but the weapon system's firing rate is slow, can be very unreliable as the ranges increase, and have to fly TO their targets to do damage. Turrets rate of fire is much faster. Their damage is instant. Once you get into your optimal, if you know about transversal velocity you'll be able to do some great DPS. Overall, turret systems take more skill points because they're more complex and more rewarding, while missiles generally are PvE, and are stressful to use despite being mostly effective. Also ever notice that almost every faction uses defender missiles? Not every faction uses ECM vs turrets.
General Spaz Minmatar Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.07.28 16:54:00 - [27] Ok, here's my take on it. I have two characters, one is Minmatar and cannot use missiles (just rockets). One is Caldari and can use both. While it may be easier to train one SINGLE type of missile up to T2, it is not easier to train both the short and long range versions to T2. For instance: Even if I trained up torps 5 while you trained large hybrid/proj/laser, you would only need to plug in the two spec skills to be able to use Rails and Blasters (or arty/autos, beams/pulses). For me to use T2 Cruise missiles, I would have to train cruises to 5 as well. Also, I would have to train Heavies, HAMS, standards, and rockets independently. So the facts are that it takes missile users LONGER to skill up to be effective, also missile support skills are longer to train. The real reason for missiles to train the way they are is because they are rarely a primary weapon system. Take the Typhoon for instance... are you telling me that Typhoon pilots should have to train up through the projectile weapon tree, then train for every single missile type on top of that just so they can use T2 weapons in all slots? Same for Gallente recons and stealth bombers. Try to think beyond your little world please and allow the rest of us to enjoy Eve.
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2008.07.28 23:10:00 - [28] I think all weapons systems should be exactly the same. Lets just reskin hybrid turrets to look like missile launchers, reskin antimatter ammo to look like cruises, and have the exact same skills. Now everyone is happy and identical.


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