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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.07.10 14:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Eyj= (CCP) understood the need for improving stock trading, but setting up the underlying infrastructure would be complex. He strongly believes that financial auditing and reporting should be dealt with by the players. However, this would result in problems with alts and accountability, as it would be hard to provide consequences to fraudulent characters.
In Eve, trust would also be a problem, as players are discouraged to trust other people with their investments as precedented by other game mechanics. This might mean that the whole stock market would ended up to be controlled by only a few individuals with sufficient reputation, while it would be impossible for new parties to get any kind of position in this system. CCP does not plan to build this system if only a few people will benefit from it.
CCP encourages the CSM and players to think about these issues and how players can be held accountable for financial audits and records, as well as come up with possible mechanics and solutions.
Wrangler
Community Manager
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Email
"It's not worth doing something unless you are doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing." |
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Ricdic's Hoe
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality? |
Malafet
Caldari
Industrial Cast-a-ways
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Some simple ideas that may help, make all Corps that sell stock, have their financial records open to the public the way real Corps do. Also have all stock pay out and selling set, if the corp says they pay 10% of their stocks value, make the corp pay 10% even if that means that the corp's account go under(Also don't allow Members to leave a corp until the corp balance is back above 0isk, or possibly draw from any member that has financial control in the corp, leaving them with more responsibility to their stock holders), or have it draw from "all" the Corp members personal Accounts(this will also push corps that sell stock to work together), this will deter corps from pulling their funds from the stock holders.
Also Stock Value should depend on profits from sells on the market and through contracts not Player run Audits, it wouldn't be that hard to make a financial Algorithm that totaled the values of items made and sold based on in corp players skills!
I would also like to see more in the area of accountability, I am a stock holder in several Corps and I have found that most corps don't even pay dividends, so stock value is basically what some plays says they want to sell the stock they own in a corp. Which means that corp stocks are being sold from player to player, and the only person that makes any profit is the corp, because even if they only get 1 isk/per stock without some kind of payout they make all profit!
~Malafet~ |
Lieutenant Isis
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
 Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe
Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality?
Contracting shares would be all that is required to make a more secure method available. The community would then be in a good position to make externally supported stock markets using the API key much they way that EBANK does now with ISK. The potential for scams is still there which is a good thing too.
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Corp Shares are one of my pet peeves. At present there is only one form of Corp Ownership: Total solo Dictatorship. Whoever owns 51% of the shares effectively owns 100%, and those with less own nothing.
For example, in the recent disbanding of my old corp, Vendetta Underground, I owned 23% of the total shares. Yet the CEO was able to take all of the corp assets as his personal property and my 23% had NO VALUE AT ALL. Since I had decided not to follow what I thought was a corrupt and inept leader, I wanted to cash in the shares accumulated as rewards for years of service to the corp. Instead, all the share ownership did was allow me to see the theft being committed by my CEO, but not to challenge it.
It shure would be nice if there was a way that individuals could invest in a corp and be secure in their investment. Trusting anyone in Eve is the stupidest thing you can ever do, so that's out. We need a game-enforced method for share ownership to be a tangible asset invulnerable to theft.
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Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Turn shares into something that we can contract.
Everything else will sort itself out.
_______________
Pwett
CEO, Founder, & Executor
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
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HawkBlade
Starlancers
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
This might mean that the whole stock market would ended up to be controlled by only a few individuals with sufficient reputation, while it would be impossible for new parties to get any kind of position in this system.
This is already the case as embodied by EGSE brokers. As stock market itself is far to complex even for real life professionals to police, thus I agree that it should be off the agenda. However not being able to transfer shares in a method secure for both parties is a crime that continues to this day. Shame on you for not even admitting to your negligence on this. Until secure trading includes shares, all discussion is pointless and you, CCP, empower only few with reputations at the cost of everything else.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm not sure how much it'd help, but one thing I'd like to see a well-trusted character do is become an auditor for public corporations. You don't need to run it, just monitor the books. It'd probably help stave off a lot of scamming.
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Fix the forums! |
Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I'm not sure how much it'd help, but one thing I'd like to see a well-trusted character do is become an auditor for public corporations. You don't need to run it, just monitor the books. It'd probably help stave off a lot of scamming.
Where have you been? It's been happening for months dude and there are multiple characters who do it. Pop your head into the Market Discussions forum one day, it's a whole new world in there. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Originally by: Ricdics
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I'm not sure how much it'd help, but one thing I'd like to see a well-trusted character do is become an auditor for public corporations. You don't need to run it, just monitor the books. It'd probably help stave off a lot of scamming.
Where have you been? It's been happening for months dude and there are multiple characters who do it. Pop your head into the Market Discussions forum one day, it's a whole new world in there.
Not a part of the game I play, sorry. I stand corrected.
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Fix the forums! |
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Athre
The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.07.11 02:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe
Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality?
^^ this
Regarding Auditors there is much they can do with API to substantiate the claim of someone starting an IPO EXCEPT tell the difference between a BPO and BPC - anyway that could get fixed CCP?
No mater what the auditor's findings its only on what has been done up to that point, no assurance the person requesting venture capital will actually do as they say....
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.11 05:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Why should the stock market be any different than the rest of the game?
I mean alts are used by everyone to avoid involving their corps/alliances. They are used to post with, haul goods to empire, sell items and buy items. I fail to see how they would be any more detrimental to the stock market.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.07.11 13:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe
Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality?
Exactly. Creating a secure way to sell AND buyback shares would be step 1.
We already have auditing in the form of the API (increase the amount of information from the full API though). From there everything would already fall into place, and design mechanics issues would become readily apparent.
When WE the players say we want a stock market. We are not asking for an entire new UI overhaul, new windows, major additions. We are asking for a secure and easy way to transfer shares between players. Make shares contractible... the market will create itself. |
Tribalist
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Posted - 2008.07.11 16:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Should a Corp decide to go public.
Create two types of Stock. Voteing and Non-voteing stock.
Stock Valuation:
For non voting Stock.
1. The full value of the Master wallet & a Corp set percentage of each other corp wallet division. (set between 2% and 10%) The master wallet cannot be less than 20% of the total of all Isk in the corp. Should it fall below that it auto drafts from the other wallet divisions eqauly to bring it's self back to 20%.
2. non-voting stock can be sold and traded freely between players.
3. Non voting sock can be sold back to the original corp. at current value (based on valuation #1)
(this will create a stock that fluctuates in value which is a good thing for investors/ speculators based upon the strength/ health of the corp issuing the stock) It also does not kill corp management by having voting stock out there in the hands of the masses.
Voting Stock:
1. Can only be issued by the CEO
2. Is valued at the Full Value of the all Wallet Divisions divided by the amount of stock issued including the non-voting stock)
3. The CEO through the corperation can at any time buy the stock back at full value.
This creates ownership in a corp for corp members / directors. It still allows the Corp to get rid of a "problem member" by buying thier voting stock back.
I would like to see some way of Tagging corp assets, for instance if the corp buys a Moros then that moros is tagged as a corp asset and cannot be sold or contracted out of the corp, except by successfull vote. Regardless of who currently has possetion of it. The asset would also contribute value to the corp stock.
Any one coming into possetion of said asset would be notified that it belongs to XYZ corp, that XYZ corp has been notified of its whereabouts, and that thier use of it constitutes "agro" and that they can be fired upon without concord intervention. This would curb a lot of corp theft or at least give the injured corp some recourse. (More PVP! )
Just a few suggestions
Tribe
Tribe
Friend's don't let friend's drive the Imicus |
Matalino
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.11 21:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe
Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality?
This!
Accountability and trust are issues that extend fair beyond the scope of just the stock market.
No attempt to address those issues would be effective if approached only with the intent of creating a foundation for the stock market, as it must address all aspects and styles of game play for it to effectively protect those investing into the stock market.
All that we are asking for is the means to contract/trade shares securely.
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Macmuelli
Meltd0wn
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.07.12 19:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
Edited by: Macmuelli on 12/07/2008 19:53:30
A market around shares would be realy interesting.
My personal thoughts:
Corporation Shares should be only avaibale from Npc s corps.
The should be gettable on a realy hard and expensive way, which gurantee u a monthly dividende upon the buisness which was done for the corp. ( Tax from Trades on there stations/ mineral refining etc...)
A way for modern/industrial pvp if peoples try to push buisness on Stations (npc- corporations)to get more dividende each month.
If u know that your enemie corporation owns shares of Station.... u will not do trades there, because u will not make them rich.(Theorie)
About trust:
Peoples should be able to found "Fonds". This should be adapted like founding an alliance.
Like "Corporation A.B.C. investment found".
The founder had to pay a fee of 500 million isks as a base capital into a npc shareholding bank.
From this moment the bank announce that a new "fond" is avaiable, and offers "Fonds-shares".
Pa example. 1 million shares for 500 isks each.
To buy shares from this bank u will need some "new " broker skills. Upon the level u will be able to buy limited numbers of shares.
The Npc- shareholding bank returns 50% of the incoming money back to the founder of the fond.
( on a seperate fond wallet).
"The rest stays in line"
"The founder is able to split the corp tax and can set a special "fond tax".( limited to 15%)
Example:
Fonds wallet = 250 mio isks
corp tax = 100 %
fond tax = 15% (from every incoming corp tax goes 15 % seperate into the fond wallet)
Monthly incoming: 1 bn isks
= fond wallet: 400 mio isks ( end of the month)
Shareholding bank wallet ( fond capital) = 500 mio( basecapital to cover the shares) + 250 mio from the share owners which had buy shares
= 750 mio isks
Fond wallet:= 400 mio isks =( 350 mio less then the shareholding bank wallet)
To get a dividende, the fond wallet must be minimum 750.000.001 isks.
This isks should be splitted then in a % to raise up the fond-base-capital + a payout % tax.
Upon the raise up of the Basecapital, the worth of the shares raise up. U can sell them to the shareholding bank. u had to pay a tax then.
If the fond wallet is less then the shareholding wallet, the worth of the shares fall down.
Not realy risky.
But as the founder u should be able to "ask" the shareholders to get a credit on the "fond wallet".
To buy a bpo pa example.
Pa example:
The " Fond wallet" = 750 mio isks.
U need 280 mio isks for a bc bpo.
The shareholders vote Yes.
The founder is able to buy the bpo via this fond wallet and is limited to the 280 mio isks.
Bpos buyed by this wallet are "flagged" and a part of the fond.
Selling it is only doable via a vote by the shareholders.
Something like this could cover the trust issue.
If the founder want to buy a carrier from this money and the shareholders vote Yes. It is there own risk if the carrier is destroeyd.
The "insurance" money goes into the fond wallet then.
Perhaps something like this could be worth think about.
Not perfect!
But keep the stone running.
breg
mac
HStt de MSkelbwrger ierst n Menschen in sin Haart inschlottn, denn kann diese Mensch sich opn Meckelbwrger full und gonz verlatten."
evefan since 2003 |
Xornicon Altair
Woopatang
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2008.07.12 20:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
All other ideas aside, let's make the stocks in a corp directly representative of the amount of money in the wallet of the corp. So, if there's 1000 shares and there's 1,000,000 ISK in the wallet, each share is then worth 1000 ISK. In this way, as a corp wallet grows, then, realistically, so does the value of the stocks. And thusly, if someone wishes to sell his or her stock in the corp, there can be an automatic system in place to pay them the value of their stocks out of the corp wallet.
Also, in this way, the CEO or Directors of a corp can never take more money out of the corp wallet than is the value of their stocks, thus preventing a corrupt CEO from pilfering 100% of his corp's value overnight and leaving everyone else with nothing. If a CEO holds on to 100% of the corp stocks, then, he is still the dictator at the top, but, as soon as he starts to sell stocks off, there's potential for him to loose control.
As a side note: To encourage CEOs to offload more stocks, make it so that votes through shares require a 2/3 majority, rather than a 50% majority. Though, this may encourage them to hoard more stocks than offload... ah well.
The Red Skull: http://www.eve-syndicate.com/index.php |
Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Aeden
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.13 19:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm not in shares, ipo and all this stuff BUT why shares aren't available on the market ? This wouldn't work ?
Fetchez la vache !
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Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.07.13 21:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
A corp's value though is not represented by the sum of its wallet divisions. If the corporation has static assets like a POS, this adds value to the corporation. Products for sale by a corporation (stored or on the market) also add to the value of a corporation.
So how do you determine the true value of a corporation? If the the wallet never total more than 1b for example, but it has 2 corporate Freighters & 1 Rorqual, how much is the corporation worth?
 Founder Heiian Society |
Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.13 23:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
I don't think a corp stock market needs to be incredibly complex. In fact, in order to encourage Player participation it's important that any system is not to obscure - remember this is a game first and foremost.
I think we need to understand why a player would want to purchase shares in a corp, and base a system around that. In my view a player would want to buy shares for 3 reasons:
1. Mid term investment & on ward sale: the player intends to sell the shares at some stage for more than the purchase price.
2. Long Term Income generation: the player intends to keep the shares an make his money back via dividends.
3. Political Control: the player wants a say in what the Corp does, from the base of being able to vote on issues, propose votes all the way up to full Corp ownership.
The share seller is selling these attributes - the expected dividend, political control and potential share value.
In order to achieve 'trust' in the share option the purchaser should be able to see the following:
1. The historic dividend pay out per share and the next dividend payout value / share. (this means dividend payouts should be a automated feature).
2. The percentage of ownership. e.g 1000 shares = 25% ownership.
How much ISK the Corp wallet has, how many POS's or BS it has is largely irrelevant provided the corp shows a consistent history of dividend pay outs. After all not all Corps make ISK purely from a physical activity (e.g a corp that makes ISK by making Alliances).
To buy, or not to buy...
Its a risk, always will be. But the dividend payout will act as a guide to the historic reliability of the corp (regardless of its income method). A corp with a long dividend history will be seen as more reliable, hence its shares will be worth more and so on.
In order to make this process reasonably user friendly any 'stock market' should show the following:
Corp:
Share value over time.
Dividend payout over time.
The share 'item' should show:
Sell value.
% ownership
Next dividend payout.
The next dividend payout is guarunteed - no one can reduce the corp wallet below the dividend payout of all shares in that given period.
I would suggest dividends are paid weekly - in order to provide sufficient div history data and a more dynmaic market.
% ownership
Ownership allows you to have a % value in all votes, including the ability to propose votes and see who else has varying degrees of ownership. A host of 'sanctionable' actions could come into play here such as - increase div payout, surrender war, declare war, release more shares, lock master wallet at % value and so on.
(One interesting aspect of shares not yet explored is that they could be surrenderd by a corp as means of canceling a war dec: in effect a 'win' condition).
C.
VITOC - Amarr Corp for Faction Warfare! |
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Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.13 23:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
Originally by: Dex Nederland
A corp's value though is not represented by the sum of its wallet divisions. If the corporation has static assets like a POS, this adds value to the corporation. Products for sale by a corporation (stored or on the market) also add to the value of a corporation.
So how do you determine the true value of a corporation? If the the wallet never total more than 1b for example, but it has 2 corporate Freighters & 1 Rorqual, how much is the corporation worth?
Thats true, but its not relevant here. The only consideration is -
Can the corp make its dividend payments?
It might achieve that by liquidating all its material assets (POS's, ships etc), having its members mine until their eyes bleed, singing on vent for isk or stealing a Titan and flogging it.
What's important is whether you judge you'll make a return on your investment through dividends.
C.
VITOC - Amarr Corp for Faction Warfare! |
Dapanman1
Amarr
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
The InterBus Initiative
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
How about a way to vote to consolidate shares. My corp has a few dozen shareholders (no idea why) and 90% of them are inactive characters, effectivly making corp votes meaningless.
Sig removed for inappropriate content.~~~Applebabe |
Riprion
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.07.14 03:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Edited by: Riprion on 14/07/2008 03:06:29
I don't understand why everyone is trying to take all the risk out of owning stock. Owning stock is risky. That is why the reward can be great.
Here is what I think should be done. Make stock a physical item like ammo. This would allow it to be openly traded on the market. The corp would produce "stock certificates" at the station where it is going to make it's IPO. The stock would be offered for sale and traders would buy that stock. Making it a market tradeable object would also provide basic charts that traders could use to work the market.
The corporation would set up a dividend percentage that they could change through an announcement, maybe through an automated email to all stakeholders. Lowering a dividend would probably cause the price of the stock to fall just like RL. The corporation would be required to issue fiscal reports on a quarterly basis. The price of the stock would drop if profits were down from the previous quarter just like RL. CCP should just let the market take care of things.
As far as voting stock is concerned there could either be voting and non-voting stock or the corporation would just have to maintain 51% stake. More likely they would need to maintain a much smaller stake as voter apathy permits control with a stake in the 20% range. In order to make the stock object work it might be able to function like a reusable neural implant. When you buy the stock object you would file it "read: implant it", and that would create a flag that would allow you a vote. Each one adds up and the voting mechanics would call that property to see how many votes you get.
CCP shouldn't be too concerned about scams. Even with a ton of regulation RL still has Enron potential. Look what happened when that scandal broke. Everyone realized that a previously highly valued stock was worthless and the price plummeted. This is exactly what should have happened. As I said before, owning stock is risky. The value of the stock absolutely should not be directly tied to a corp wallet or asset valuation. This is because the amount of money in the wallet or assets do not represent future profitability, especially for a financial or trading corp. Future profitability is a factor that typically reflected in price. The stock is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay at a given moment. From many of the comments, it sounds like players think that stocks are bonds and the dividend is the interest. Stocks create a massive inflow of capital into the corp at the IPO, but after that, stock value increases help the stake holders in the corp only from the increased valuation if they sell stock, or if used by the corporation as assets that can be borrowed against.
In conclusion, stocks are risky. Stocks are not bonds. Stocks should be market tradeable objects that are out of the control of the corp, unless they buy them back and go private. Market tradable objects would automatically enable charting. Lastly, voting stock could be be modeled after implants that would alter a "vote" property. I'm interested to hear what others think about this idea. |
joemina
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Posted - 2008.07.21 04:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
There are three things that need to happen.
1) Stocks need to be able to be traded securely from corp to player and player to player, like items are currently traded.
This will allow people to sell and buy stocks at market prices that are determined by how people value the corporation and its stock.
2)Corps need the ability to distribute dividends
Corps should not have to distribute dividends. It should be optional. Buyers of stock of corps that don't distribute dividends would be buying stock based in speculated increase in price and control of the company. Distributing dividends would help make a corporation's stock look more interesting to investors. These dividends should be automatic but not be guaranteed. Guaranting dividends takes the risk out of the stock and would raise stock prices artificially. The corp should have the option to be able to set a dividend price per share at a beginning a period, also with the option not to have a dividend payment for that period. This way, the corp can control its dividend payment period and make sure it has enough ISK to cover the dividend per shares. Again, this factor would help buyers determine what price they would like to pay on the market. At the end of the period, the money would be taken from the corp wallet and distributed among the shareholders. If the corp does not have enough money in the corp wallet to cover it dividend. The corp wallet should be emptied and zeroed.
3)Players need to be able to see dividend and stock price history of the corporation
This will help players determine which stock to buy at what price based on the reliability of the company in the past. The history will show when corps don't meet their dividends, dividend per share, price and frequency of dividends.
Even if this is done off-line or out of game this would be fine, research companies stock history off-line and buy it in game. Most people do this for their ships, outfitting, etc. already anyways, so that's not that big of a deal.
If you guys are worried about corruptful CEO's, have an insurance system where corps can have the option to have there dividend's guaranteed by having them backed by a NPC corps. This would allow newer corporations to help gain reliability and trust from their investors. One could take into account the corps standing with the NPC and CONCORD to determine how much of the dividends the NPC would be willing to guarentee for a price. This would prompt a new stat to keep track of also, % of dividend guaranteed to the investor even if company wasn't able to pay up
For example
Corp ABC has:
-1 mil shares
-100 isk per share dividend declared at beginning of period(100 mil in ISK paid to investors)
-Corp has good standing with NPC corp and has paid NPC corp X amount to insure 20 mil in dividends.
- At end of period corp only has 85 million in wallet.
-Corp Wallet ends up with 5 million
--First it will take from the corp wallet( 85 milllion) and if there isn't enough, the corp gets all the insurance from the NPC (20 million)
So the investors get their ISK, but the corp takes a hit in standing with the NPC corp. The magnitude of the hit should be based on the size of guarantee. The blame should also be shared throughout the corporation, slightly decreasing every player in the corp's standing with that corporation. This would discourage corps from missing their dividend numbers and encourage corp members to work together to achieve this. Also if the corp looses enough standing it shouldn't be able to get the same guarantee, or a guarantee at all until the corp regains its standing with that corporation.
Like i said though, this will just artificially raises the price of stock through a fake sense of security.
There will always be people trying to rip you off. That's part of the risk of investing. And like real life, one doesn't have to have stock to be successful in EVE, so if you don't like the risk just don't invest.
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Ohne
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.04 20:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
Didnt read through all the replys but I belive a stock market is not a possibility unless CCP is ready to punish people for fraud. Without that, a stock market will always be some half assed attempt just to look nice and wont really produce any good tbh.
Maby you could make some special rules around corporations that list their corp into the stock market to prevent people from scamming. Stock market needs investors and they wont come unless they can not only trust the corp but also know that if he trys to run off with the isk, he will be dealt with.
I know CCP wont punish people for scamming, and I support that. However a stock market cant work without a little bit of law.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.04 21:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Until eve can handle a rights issue with shares, then going any further is rather pointless.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
J Kunjeh
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Posted - 2008.08.04 21:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Originally by: Riprion
Edited by: Riprion on 14/07/2008 03:06:29
I don't understand why everyone is trying to take all the risk out of owning stock. Owning stock is risky. That is why the reward can be great.
Here is what I think should be done. Make stock a physical item like ammo. This would allow it to be openly traded on the market. The corp would produce "stock certificates" at the station where it is going to make it's IPO. The stock would be offered for sale and traders would buy that stock. Making it a market tradeable object would also provide basic charts that traders could use to work the market.
The corporation would set up a dividend percentage that they could change through an announcement, maybe through an automated email to all stakeholders. Lowering a dividend would probably cause the price of the stock to fall just like RL. The corporation would be required to issue fiscal reports on a quarterly basis. The price of the stock would drop if profits were down from the previous quarter just like RL. CCP should just let the market take care of things.
As far as voting stock is concerned there could either be voting and non-voting stock or the corporation would just have to maintain 51% stake. More likely they would need to maintain a much smaller stake as voter apathy permits control with a stake in the 20% range. In order to make the stock object work it might be able to function like a reusable neural implant. When you buy the stock object you would file it "read: implant it", and that would create a flag that would allow you a vote. Each one adds up and the voting mechanics would call that property to see how many votes you get.
CCP shouldn't be too concerned about scams. Even with a ton of regulation RL still has Enron potential. Look what happened when that scandal broke. Everyone realized that a previously highly valued stock was worthless and the price plummeted. This is exactly what should have happened. As I said before, owning stock is risky. The value of the stock absolutely should not be directly tied to a corp wallet or asset valuation. This is because the amount of money in the wallet or assets do not represent future profitability, especially for a financial or trading corp. Future profitability is a factor that typically reflected in price. The stock is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay at a given moment. From many of the comments, it sounds like players think that stocks are bonds and the dividend is the interest. Stocks create a massive inflow of capital into the corp at the IPO, but after that, stock value increases help the stake holders in the corp only from the increased valuation if they sell stock, or if used by the corporation as assets that can be borrowed against.
In conclusion, stocks are risky. Stocks are not bonds. Stocks should be market tradeable objects that are out of the control of the corp, unless they buy them back and go private. Market tradable objects would automatically enable charting. Lastly, voting stock could be be modeled after implants that would alter a "vote" property. I'm interested to hear what others think about this idea.
This is much more in line with what I believe a stock market in Eve should look like. I would support something along these lines.
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Ohne
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.04 22:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Originally by: Riprion
Edited by: Riprion on 14/07/2008 03:06:29
CCP shouldn't be too concerned about scams. Even with a ton of regulation RL still has Enron potential. Look what happened when that scandal broke. Everyone realized that a previously highly valued stock was worthless and the price plummeted. This is exactly what should have happened. As I said before, owning stock is risky. The value of the stock absolutely should not be directly tied to a corp wallet or asset valuation. This is because the amount of money in the wallet or assets do not represent future profitability, especially for a financial or trading corp. Future profitability is a factor that typically reflected in price. The stock is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay at a given moment. From many of the comments, it sounds like players think that stocks are bonds and the dividend is the interest. Stocks create a massive inflow of capital into the corp at the IPO, but after that, stock value increases help the stake holders in the corp only from the increased valuation if they sell stock, or if used by the corporation as assets that can be borrowed against.
The difference from EVE and Enron is that the goverment deals with companys that go bankrupt and puts the people responsible behind bars.
Unless theres something to prevent people from walking away with ISK that they got for shares, I dont belive there can be a succesful stock exchange. However If CCP would be willing to monitor this and deal with stock fraud differently than the regular scammers, there might be a chance.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.05 08:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
RL has most scams falling under effects baised legislation insted of intent baised. So someone who finds a loophole to scam can still get thrown in jail if they are working against the "Spirit of the law", even if he did not break any rules. Thats all because of all the scams Conrad Black did in the past due to the loopholes he found.
How you going to add in effects baised legislation in eve? You cannot so all you can do is gives the share trading tools to the players and keep out of the scam side.
Even something simple as doing a rights issue would create problems. Is the company creating new shares to scam people? Or are they creating new shares with intent of giving their customers them for free and so the shares become more liquid?
I would like it to work but its just going to be a nestbed of scams.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Seamus OReilly
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Posted - 2008.08.05 14:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Quote:
Here is what I think should be done. Make stock a physical item like ammo. This would allow it to be openly traded on the market. The corp would produce "stock certificates" at the station where it is going to make it's IPO. The stock would be offered for sale and traders would buy that stock. Making it a market tradeable object would also provide basic charts that traders could use to work the market.
I like this idea.
There should also be some short-selling functionality. This would add a new dimension to inter-corp warfare. Of course, I'd like to see futures contracts with items, too.
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Riprion
Gallente
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Quote:
The difference from EVE and Enron is that the goverment deals with companys that go bankrupt and puts the people responsible behind bars.
Actually, just going bankrupt doesn't land you in prison. Going bankrupt is not a crime, even though the people that foolishly invested in a poorly performing company and lost money might wrongly think oherwise. Defrauding shareholders lands you in prison. One of the aspects of the Enron scam that most people don't know is that many stock technicians (traders that focus on the technical analysis of a stocks charts) had gotten out of Enron before the scandal broke. Why, because although the price performance seemed inline with the fundamentals of the company, it was completely backwards for the industry in general. Why, because they were lying about the fundamentals. All of the info that you should need to know for trading would ultimately be reflected in the price. This probably would not happen overnight, but would require greater development of a robust financial sector which would be the market movers that would cause the smart money moves presaging major price moves. In other words if the financial corporations are dumping a company's stock in high volume and the price is tanking they may know something you don't, and it is time to get out.
As always, remember that buying stock is risky. If you read enough books on RL stock trading you may be surprised at how "PVP" the attitudes of the authors are. If you buy foolishly someone is not simply going to TRY to take your money they WILL take your money, and that is perfectly legal. Stupidity costs money.
Thanks all who approve of the stock item idea.
 They like me, they really like me
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Riprion
Gallente
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.13 20:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
So, after my last post, I tried to think of a way to scam my stock proposal, and how the market would correct that, or if necessary what regulations would be required.
I guess the most obvious way would be to start a new corp; make an IPO and then go bankrupt disappering with the isk. This is essentially what happened during the dot com bubble and subsequent crash, except that most of those weren't exactly scams. This has an easy market solution which was revealed during that crash. Don't buy stock from unproven companies with no profit history or business plan. If you buy stock from a 1 day old corp with a 1 day old CEO, you deserve to part with your money. See comment on stupidity above. This kind of scam would seem to be difficult to police, but it is so obvious that only huge suckers should be taken in by it. Of course, it would be bad to place time limit regulations on IPO's because I can think of valid reasons for a brand new corp to have an IPO. Someone who has a history of profitable business starting up a new corp, or a spin-off corp. Of course you wouldn't have to trust that person, you would see the market movers in the financial sector (smart money) trusting him/her with major volume and that should be enough validation, at least for a short to medium timeframe.
Since I am terrible at thinking like a crook, what other ways of scamming the stock market are there?
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Ohne
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.14 01:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
Originally by: Riprion
So, after my last post, I tried to think of a way to scam my stock proposal, and how the market would correct that, or if necessary what regulations would be required.
I guess the most obvious way would be to start a new corp; make an IPO and then go bankrupt disappering with the isk. This is essentially what happened during the dot com bubble and subsequent crash, except that most of those weren't exactly scams. This has an easy market solution which was revealed during that crash. Don't buy stock from unproven companies with no profit history or business plan. If you buy stock from a 1 day old corp with a 1 day old CEO, you deserve to part with your money. See comment on stupidity above. This kind of scam would seem to be difficult to police, but it is so obvious that only huge suckers should be taken in by it. Of course, it would be bad to place time limit regulations on IPO's because I can think of valid reasons for a brand new corp to have an IPO. Someone who has a history of profitable business starting up a new corp, or a spin-off corp. Of course you wouldn't have to trust that person, you would see the market movers in the financial sector (smart money) trusting him/her with major volume and that should be enough validation, at least for a short to medium timeframe.
Since I am terrible at thinking like a crook, what other ways of scamming the stock market are there?
That market would get so infested with people trying to scam (good ones and bad ones) that eventually noone would bother trying to fish out the credible ones from the scams. Specially when a couple of good scams kick in and people really loose ISK (and there will be a big scam that works), people start to sell their shit and everyone looses ISK.
Stock Market in eve, in its current form, is just a bunch of roleplayers that want it to work because it looks nice. If one values his time there are a 1000 better ways to make ISK in eve, with much less risk.
Also about the risk, I know buying Stock in RL can be risky, stocks go up and down and corporations go bankrupt. However, you never have to worry about the person taking ALL the shareholders money and **** off (at least very very very rarely), since thats ILLEGAL. If eve doesnt have that, then eve wont have a successful stock market. End of story.
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.08.14 03:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Giving people better and more tangiable reasons for sticking to their chosen corporation would be a start. How can anything be valued at all if the most valuable asset of all the pilots can and will up and leave at the slightest sense of an uphill journey?
Before there are benefits to staying loyal to your corporation coded into the corporate interface the stockmarket need not be.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
Riprion
Gallente
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.14 15:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Quote:
That market would get so infested with people trying to scam (good ones and bad ones) that eventually noone would bother trying to fish out the credible ones from the scams. Specially when a couple of good scams kick in and people really loose ISK (and there will be a big scam that works), people start to sell their shit and everyone looses ISK.
There are corporations that have been around for years. These would appear to be safe investments, and not that hard to find. Also, so what if everyone looses ISK on a scam? It would only be a problem if you are an idiot that has all of his/her investment capital in one place, diversify. It is easy to just lay out a blanket doomsday statement saying there will be too many scammers it can't work. But how do we limit that possibility as much as possible? As far as making money, huge sums of money are made in the RL market, I don't see why Eve would necessarily be any different with a working stock market.
I'm sorry for not understanding you, Wendat; could you please explain how individual loyalty to a corporation has anything to do with stocks. People quit working for corporations in RL all the time without affecting stock value.
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Ohne
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.14 18:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Originally by: Riprion
There are corporations that have been around for years. These would appear to be safe investments, and not that hard to find.
You are correct. However that are not many of them, and It would make a very dull stock market to only include the "best of the best". And even they could end up as a scam (it has happened before) and with much more ISK floating in active stock market, the chances of that happening would be higher.
Originally by: Riprion
Also, so what if everyone looses ISK on a scam? It would only be a problem if you are an idiot that has all of his/her investment capital in one place, diversify.
As soon as people start loosing ISK to scams, even though they diversify, your going to see people get ****ed off and go do something that is not 10-20% chance of a scam. Then people stop trying, sell their shares and the demand for shares goes down and everyone looses ISK.
Originally by: Riprion
It is easy to just lay out a blanket doomsday statement saying there will be too many scammers it can't work.
Yes, its very easy. Because thats how it is.
Originally by: Riprion
But how do we limit that possibility as much as possible? As far as making money, huge sums of money are made in the RL market, I don't see why Eve would necessarily be any different with a working stock market.
Huge sums of money are indeed made in the RL market because people dont fly away with your ISK in spaceships. People that try are normally put behind bars.
I know the idea of a working stock market is very cool indeed, and I really would like to see it ingame because I really like it in RL. But what Im trying to say, even though you can limit scaming to a absolute minium and buy shares all over the place to minimize the risk, your still going to see scams. Theese scams will result in people not beliving in the market and It will never be what it could be with regulation.
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Zylawy
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Posted - 2008.08.14 19:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
After reading every post in this thred, and the amazing ideas that have been pointed out and suggested.
I have always wondered the possibility of having a stock exchange in eve, and being able to see the daily ups and downs of my stock. I never really thought people would be so worried about scams since there are already several scams within eve as it is! One of my corp members actually got approched by someone and that person just asked for isk. He claimed he made $150 million isk a day doing it.
Anyways,
To the people who complain:
This is straght forward, if you don't like the idea, don't play this portion of the game (if it comes) simple. If I was going to invest ISK into a Corp or Alliance, I would do my research on them and see if they are a farud or not, but nothing is ever garenteed, not even your ship if you go thru a 0.5 system.
I think it would be neat, that if you buy shares it displays a lot of information: from, your purchase prince, to how much you made per share, and how many current people are looking to buy... etc.
Now for those who are worried about fruad, why not make a standard?
-Corporations have to be at least 6 months old to make share's go public.
-Maybe have 5 different stock exchanges where you actually have to go to and register your corporation.
-And in order to register your corp, you have to have an active POS, and maybe even print out the shares take them to the station and put them up for sale. This way people can contract them around.
-There could be a currently employee requirement, so weive out the 1 man corps. (not saying 1 person couldn't make a decent living doing it) but it just protects the consumer.
Eve has a great market, ships get blowen up and it keeps the isk flowing.
- Zylawy
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Ohne
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.14 22:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Originally by: Zylawy
After reading every post in this thred, and the amazing ideas that have been pointed out and suggested.
I have always wondered the possibility of having a stock exchange in eve, and being able to see the daily ups and downs of my stock. I never really thought people would be so worried about scams since there are already several scams within eve as it is! One of my corp members actually got approched by someone and that person just asked for isk. He claimed he made $150 million isk a day doing it.
Anyways,
To the people who complain:
This is straght forward, if you don't like the idea, don't play this portion of the game (if it comes) simple. If I was going to invest ISK into a Corp or Alliance, I would do my research on them and see if they are a farud or not, but nothing is ever garenteed, not even your ship if you go thru a 0.5 system.
I think it would be neat, that if you buy shares it displays a lot of information: from, your purchase prince, to how much you made per share, and how many current people are looking to buy... etc.
Now for those who are worried about fruad, why not make a standard?
-Corporations have to be at least 6 months old to make share's go public.
-Maybe have 5 different stock exchanges where you actually have to go to and register your corporation.
-And in order to register your corp, you have to have an active POS, and maybe even print out the shares take them to the station and put them up for sale. This way people can contract them around.
-There could be a currently employee requirement, so weive out the 1 man corps. (not saying 1 person couldn't make a decent living doing it) but it just protects the consumer.
Eve has a great market, ships get blowen up and it keeps the isk flowing.
- Zylawy
Dont get me wrong, I really like the idea. However, If I were to choose from using my ISK in shares that theres a high risk of being scammed aswell as the basic risk of buying stock, I would choose another profession. And when people see the light and realize that the market is just nice to look at and alot of the corps registered are possible scams, why bother?
And about thoose standards, there going to have be way higher than that :)
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Cash Warbash
Caldari
Galactic Accord Senate
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.15 07:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Hello Citizens of Eve
I have read a lot of good Ideas, and a lot of problems and trust concerns. i can't solve these concerns but i had bridge the the gap between stock & trust issues in my corporations & alliance here is how i did it.-ACES guidelines
Let me address some issues one at a time and i promises you will have fun with stock options within the game, and at the same time help you avoid some general pitfalls or hazards.
1)Just as in real life, Stock markets and Stock are only as good as the CEOs and their directors and are maintained in a free market. Currently in the game, only alliances can act as advocates or policing of scam within a alliance setting. If a corporation is just selling random stock on a forum there will be no accountability to anyone. Real life markets are financial alliances all over the world. this must remain true in Eve for the game to function as a free market.
2) why does a corporation want to sell stock? Normally to raise money for the corporation, for investments in bigger than life projects agreed upon by a group of individuals
3) Good stock practices. A corporation which is selling stock also should be awarding free stock to employees(Like Loyalty Points), defenders, miners and people who are helping the alliance as a bonus program. Without stock award programs stock will lose its value and the purchasers-stockholders have no way to recover their loses. in real life employees are awarded stock options, this has to be true for the game too. Your best investors will come from within the alliance or group
4) Dividends; in real life dividends are award to the stockholders every 90 days if the corporation declares a profit. in eve this should be paid every month, with a disclosesure mailing list for all stockholders. If no dividend is paid the CEO should still print a disclosesure with a reason why no dividend is paid, example for no dividend payment is; war or industrial mishap.
5) Stock value; any corporation selling stock for more than 25 mill-ISK for a shares is a poor risk, unless there is a tracking system of dividend payments, disclosesure statements and out of alliances stockholders, which can be verified as non-alts. in general, avoid stock over 25 million-isk per share. This will limited your losses
6)Stock types(helps secondary market sales); in real life stock comes in many types, example-promissory stock, stock, stock option etc. In eve make the terms of stock types easy for non-financial players. first stock branches A) municipal-all executor corporations B) civil-all private corporation without a director or CEO in a Executor corp. stock-issue types; 1)New Issues stock-sold directly from a corporation, 2)Memory Stock-player selling stockholdings and 3)award stock or also called bonus stock-free stock issued to a player for services or killmails, or for being active etc.
7)Secondary market(the real player value); to assure a secondary market of stock for players who wish to sell award stock or memory stock it's the CEO's responsibility to limit the Sale of New issues Stock sold to anyone individual to 3% of the corporation shares. there stockholder can still receive Award Stock, but must seek new purchase stock from current stock holders, know as Memory Stock.
8)Trust issue-value; for stock to work you need a CEO which has appointed several directors who can sell new stock for his corporation. Stock sales must go into the corp. wallet and serve the great good of the corporation over any individual.The CEO must hold 51% of New Issue stock but, only use his vote as veto vote in rare chases, otherwise should not vote. The CEO must return two out of three dividend payments to maintain the corporation financial stability. if the CEO go's inactive, the directors can still split stock and reduce the CEO's stock holdings to less than 1%, award issued stock percent equal to each stockholder shares value to maintain stability. Or in chase of a Director going rogue and stealing a CEO will still maintain the 51% of stock within his corp. to firer the director and bleed that rogue shares down to less than 1% and than award equal value back to the share holders. over time the CEO must issue more that 51% of all shares to the public when maintaining majority shares within his corporation. This will assure a democratic system for your stock votes. if a Executor can turn his alliance corporations into stock companies the alliance will have dividends to fund it instead of fees. This will create a mutual-fund effect investing players which leave your alliance or corporation in seeing your group do well in the future assuring there dividend payments. Any player who turns hostile can have there holdings reduced at anytime. I invite all of you to join us to learn the program.
Cash Warbash
Judge-Advocate General; Legal Agent
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Cash Warbash
Caldari
Galactic Accord Senate
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.15 08:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
In ending; corporations stocks work just the way it is. Leaderships is the issue. Some better tracking is needed, but its leadership that makes it all work. I would not be happy if the stocks options had a major change
tLoyalty is earned through duty and Honorv
Cash Warbash
Judge-Advocate General; Legal Agent
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Kubic Harth
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.16 05:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
I would first like to start my post by stating that there seems to be so much confusion, and I can't get no relief.
I see this whole issue as being about a number of tiered issues that have to be decided upon each in turn before discussing anything further.
First, as the Honorable Cash Warbash has explained above me, private stock trading systems within a corp/alliance structure can and do work efficiently. They promote participation in the organization with stock rewards and the dividends that follow and allow for internal trading of those stocks for those in the organization. The issue with a system as described by Cash above is that it does not lend itself to a CCP-audited/administrated system without dramatic changes.
The differences between a privately traded corporation such as Cash's and publicly traded ones such as what many of you suggest could simply be distinguished by having a tag/flag within a new CCP stock market (abbrev. CCPSM)system. Those corporations that do not wish to be publicly traded should simply be private.
Beyond that, when dealing with the CCPSM there seem to be a number of important concerns/aspects that previous posters to this topic have mentioned. (I will only quote the first to mention them here and not comment myself if their points are clear.)
As Ricdic's Hoe said, then followed up by Matalino:
Quote:
(They)could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through (the) journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
All that we are asking for is the means to contract/trade shares securely.
And as Cailais said:
Quote:
I think we need to understand why a player would want to purchase shares in a corp, and base a system around that. In my view a player would want to buy shares for 3 reasons:
1. Mid term investment & on ward sale: the player intends to sell the shares at some stage for more than the purchase price.
2. Long Term Income generation: the player intends to keep the shares an make his money back via dividends.
3. Political Control: the player wants a say in what the Corp does, from the base of being able to vote on issues, propose votes all the way up to full Corp ownership.
The share seller is selling these attributes - the expected dividend, political control and potential share value.
In order to achieve 'trust' in the share option the purchaser should be able to see the following:
1. The historic dividend pay out per share and the next dividend payout value / share. (this means dividend payouts should be a automated feature).
2. The percentage of ownership. e.g 1000 shares = 25% ownership.
And as joemina brought up, which seems to augment Cailais's point:
Quote:
Corps should not have to distribute dividends. It should be optional. Buyers of stock of corps that don't distribute dividends would be buying stock based in speculated increase in price and control of the company. Distributing dividends would help make a corporation's stock look more interesting to investors. These dividends should be automatic but not be guaranteed.
With the above in mind, it should be very simple for a CCPSM to be created that allows for stock in public corporations to be traded. This stock should be valuable based upon the profits of the corporation selling the stock and dividends should be paid out each period based upon said profit.
Any further specifics of such a system should only come about after a concept is accepted by the governing body (CSM). Anyone interested in such a system should also realize that any such implementation to eve would likely require many revisions before being complete and would not be complete if any obvious and non-obvious menthods of scamming and fraud can be seen.
I hope this post helps clarify and consolidate a number of the ideas floating about and I would welcome discussion with anyone on this subject. Please feel free to send me a message on the forums or in game.
Thank you for your time, Kubic Harth,ACES
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Chomin H'ak
The Trivenerate
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Posted - 2008.09.11 18:58:00 -
[42] - Quote
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe
Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality?
Exactly. Creating a secure way to sell AND buyback shares would be step 1.
We already have auditing in the form of the API (increase the amount of information from the full API though). From there everything would already fall into place, and design mechanics issues would become readily apparent.
When WE the players say we want a stock market. We are not asking for an entire new UI overhaul, new windows, major additions. We are asking for a secure and easy way to transfer shares between players. Make shares contractible... the market will create itself.
My sentiments, as well. This doesn't have to break the game, CCP. You want a player-driven market, we need ways to securely implement the purchase/sale of stock.
Originally by: Frenden Dax
My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.13 06:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Create a NPC backbone to fluctuate and grow as normal. Perhaps with ccp able to tweak according to storyline?
The Market history for example can show the history of the stock prices, and other details for the stocks.
Some newb with an obelisk shifting around t2 mods and such creating profit can put himself on the stock market. Perhaps there's some super rich people who could drop 100mil on this stock at high risk. The guy turns out to be legit... your money in dividends returns. Advertise and tell your friends... show them the history. They drop 100mil also. Now this obelisk guy has a couple billion to use. Which he puts to good use. Eventually that person builds credit for himself.
In real life people spend money on penny stocks all the time for the risk... they might drop some on microsoft also.
Risk vs Reward. I know Ricdic(if he's still around) and others have billions and billions and could hear of an obelisk trader. Not care about 100mil and go for it.
Not only that....
CCP themselves can develop indexes of their own. The CCP Industrial Index could be mixed around putting isk on the long term solid people who are established already with rep; they could throw npc corps in the mix; and also be kind enough to throw scrap money off to higher risk people in the attempt to create the ability for legit people to get started.
Not to mention... traders can start from scratch... buy their own stock and such and show good rep.
Yes creating the stock market or at least establish a new part of the normal market for stocks. Would be quite the undertaking... but I think it certainly isnt just for a few.
Not to mention it isnt just for industrial people. Goonfleet corp could put up stocks and their stocks could fluctuate based on how well they are doing. If they take heavy losses and have to pay for ships... their stock drops. ETC ETC.
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"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
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