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Riprion
Gallente
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
 Quote:
The difference from EVE and Enron is that the goverment deals with companys that go bankrupt and puts the people responsible behind bars.
Actually, just going bankrupt doesn't land you in prison. Going bankrupt is not a crime, even though the people that foolishly invested in a poorly performing company and lost money might wrongly think oherwise. Defrauding shareholders lands you in prison. One of the aspects of the Enron scam that most people don't know is that many stock technicians (traders that focus on the technical analysis of a stocks charts) had gotten out of Enron before the scandal broke. Why, because although the price performance seemed inline with the fundamentals of the company, it was completely backwards for the industry in general. Why, because they were lying about the fundamentals. All of the info that you should need to know for trading would ultimately be reflected in the price. This probably would not happen overnight, but would require greater development of a robust financial sector which would be the market movers that would cause the smart money moves presaging major price moves. In other words if the financial corporations are dumping a company's stock in high volume and the price is tanking they may know something you don't, and it is time to get out.
As always, remember that buying stock is risky. If you read enough books on RL stock trading you may be surprised at how "PVP" the attitudes of the authors are. If you buy foolishly someone is not simply going to TRY to take your money they WILL take your money, and that is perfectly legal. Stupidity costs money.
Thanks all who approve of the stock item idea.
 They like me, they really like me
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Riprion
Gallente
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.13 20:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
So, after my last post, I tried to think of a way to scam my stock proposal, and how the market would correct that, or if necessary what regulations would be required.
I guess the most obvious way would be to start a new corp; make an IPO and then go bankrupt disappering with the isk. This is essentially what happened during the dot com bubble and subsequent crash, except that most of those weren't exactly scams. This has an easy market solution which was revealed during that crash. Don't buy stock from unproven companies with no profit history or business plan. If you buy stock from a 1 day old corp with a 1 day old CEO, you deserve to part with your money. See comment on stupidity above. This kind of scam would seem to be difficult to police, but it is so obvious that only huge suckers should be taken in by it. Of course, it would be bad to place time limit regulations on IPO's because I can think of valid reasons for a brand new corp to have an IPO. Someone who has a history of profitable business starting up a new corp, or a spin-off corp. Of course you wouldn't have to trust that person, you would see the market movers in the financial sector (smart money) trusting him/her with major volume and that should be enough validation, at least for a short to medium timeframe.
Since I am terrible at thinking like a crook, what other ways of scamming the stock market are there?
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Ohne
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.14 01:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
Originally by: Riprion
So, after my last post, I tried to think of a way to scam my stock proposal, and how the market would correct that, or if necessary what regulations would be required.
I guess the most obvious way would be to start a new corp; make an IPO and then go bankrupt disappering with the isk. This is essentially what happened during the dot com bubble and subsequent crash, except that most of those weren't exactly scams. This has an easy market solution which was revealed during that crash. Don't buy stock from unproven companies with no profit history or business plan. If you buy stock from a 1 day old corp with a 1 day old CEO, you deserve to part with your money. See comment on stupidity above. This kind of scam would seem to be difficult to police, but it is so obvious that only huge suckers should be taken in by it. Of course, it would be bad to place time limit regulations on IPO's because I can think of valid reasons for a brand new corp to have an IPO. Someone who has a history of profitable business starting up a new corp, or a spin-off corp. Of course you wouldn't have to trust that person, you would see the market movers in the financial sector (smart money) trusting him/her with major volume and that should be enough validation, at least for a short to medium timeframe.
Since I am terrible at thinking like a crook, what other ways of scamming the stock market are there?
That market would get so infested with people trying to scam (good ones and bad ones) that eventually noone would bother trying to fish out the credible ones from the scams. Specially when a couple of good scams kick in and people really loose ISK (and there will be a big scam that works), people start to sell their shit and everyone looses ISK.
Stock Market in eve, in its current form, is just a bunch of roleplayers that want it to work because it looks nice. If one values his time there are a 1000 better ways to make ISK in eve, with much less risk.
Also about the risk, I know buying Stock in RL can be risky, stocks go up and down and corporations go bankrupt. However, you never have to worry about the person taking ALL the shareholders money and **** off (at least very very very rarely), since thats ILLEGAL. If eve doesnt have that, then eve wont have a successful stock market. End of story.
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.08.14 03:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Giving people better and more tangiable reasons for sticking to their chosen corporation would be a start. How can anything be valued at all if the most valuable asset of all the pilots can and will up and leave at the slightest sense of an uphill journey?
Before there are benefits to staying loyal to your corporation coded into the corporate interface the stockmarket need not be.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
Riprion
Gallente
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.14 15:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Quote:
That market would get so infested with people trying to scam (good ones and bad ones) that eventually noone would bother trying to fish out the credible ones from the scams. Specially when a couple of good scams kick in and people really loose ISK (and there will be a big scam that works), people start to sell their shit and everyone looses ISK.
There are corporations that have been around for years. These would appear to be safe investments, and not that hard to find. Also, so what if everyone looses ISK on a scam? It would only be a problem if you are an idiot that has all of his/her investment capital in one place, diversify. It is easy to just lay out a blanket doomsday statement saying there will be too many scammers it can't work. But how do we limit that possibility as much as possible? As far as making money, huge sums of money are made in the RL market, I don't see why Eve would necessarily be any different with a working stock market.
I'm sorry for not understanding you, Wendat; could you please explain how individual loyalty to a corporation has anything to do with stocks. People quit working for corporations in RL all the time without affecting stock value.
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Ohne
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.14 18:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Originally by: Riprion
There are corporations that have been around for years. These would appear to be safe investments, and not that hard to find.
You are correct. However that are not many of them, and It would make a very dull stock market to only include the "best of the best". And even they could end up as a scam (it has happened before) and with much more ISK floating in active stock market, the chances of that happening would be higher.
Originally by: Riprion
Also, so what if everyone looses ISK on a scam? It would only be a problem if you are an idiot that has all of his/her investment capital in one place, diversify.
As soon as people start loosing ISK to scams, even though they diversify, your going to see people get ****ed off and go do something that is not 10-20% chance of a scam. Then people stop trying, sell their shares and the demand for shares goes down and everyone looses ISK.
Originally by: Riprion
It is easy to just lay out a blanket doomsday statement saying there will be too many scammers it can't work.
Yes, its very easy. Because thats how it is.
Originally by: Riprion
But how do we limit that possibility as much as possible? As far as making money, huge sums of money are made in the RL market, I don't see why Eve would necessarily be any different with a working stock market.
Huge sums of money are indeed made in the RL market because people dont fly away with your ISK in spaceships. People that try are normally put behind bars.
I know the idea of a working stock market is very cool indeed, and I really would like to see it ingame because I really like it in RL. But what Im trying to say, even though you can limit scaming to a absolute minium and buy shares all over the place to minimize the risk, your still going to see scams. Theese scams will result in people not beliving in the market and It will never be what it could be with regulation.
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Zylawy
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Posted - 2008.08.14 19:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
After reading every post in this thred, and the amazing ideas that have been pointed out and suggested.
I have always wondered the possibility of having a stock exchange in eve, and being able to see the daily ups and downs of my stock. I never really thought people would be so worried about scams since there are already several scams within eve as it is! One of my corp members actually got approched by someone and that person just asked for isk. He claimed he made $150 million isk a day doing it.
Anyways,
To the people who complain:
This is straght forward, if you don't like the idea, don't play this portion of the game (if it comes) simple. If I was going to invest ISK into a Corp or Alliance, I would do my research on them and see if they are a farud or not, but nothing is ever garenteed, not even your ship if you go thru a 0.5 system.
I think it would be neat, that if you buy shares it displays a lot of information: from, your purchase prince, to how much you made per share, and how many current people are looking to buy... etc.
Now for those who are worried about fruad, why not make a standard?
-Corporations have to be at least 6 months old to make share's go public.
-Maybe have 5 different stock exchanges where you actually have to go to and register your corporation.
-And in order to register your corp, you have to have an active POS, and maybe even print out the shares take them to the station and put them up for sale. This way people can contract them around.
-There could be a currently employee requirement, so weive out the 1 man corps. (not saying 1 person couldn't make a decent living doing it) but it just protects the consumer.
Eve has a great market, ships get blowen up and it keeps the isk flowing.
- Zylawy
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Ohne
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.14 22:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Originally by: Zylawy
After reading every post in this thred, and the amazing ideas that have been pointed out and suggested.
I have always wondered the possibility of having a stock exchange in eve, and being able to see the daily ups and downs of my stock. I never really thought people would be so worried about scams since there are already several scams within eve as it is! One of my corp members actually got approched by someone and that person just asked for isk. He claimed he made $150 million isk a day doing it.
Anyways,
To the people who complain:
This is straght forward, if you don't like the idea, don't play this portion of the game (if it comes) simple. If I was going to invest ISK into a Corp or Alliance, I would do my research on them and see if they are a farud or not, but nothing is ever garenteed, not even your ship if you go thru a 0.5 system.
I think it would be neat, that if you buy shares it displays a lot of information: from, your purchase prince, to how much you made per share, and how many current people are looking to buy... etc.
Now for those who are worried about fruad, why not make a standard?
-Corporations have to be at least 6 months old to make share's go public.
-Maybe have 5 different stock exchanges where you actually have to go to and register your corporation.
-And in order to register your corp, you have to have an active POS, and maybe even print out the shares take them to the station and put them up for sale. This way people can contract them around.
-There could be a currently employee requirement, so weive out the 1 man corps. (not saying 1 person couldn't make a decent living doing it) but it just protects the consumer.
Eve has a great market, ships get blowen up and it keeps the isk flowing.
- Zylawy
Dont get me wrong, I really like the idea. However, If I were to choose from using my ISK in shares that theres a high risk of being scammed aswell as the basic risk of buying stock, I would choose another profession. And when people see the light and realize that the market is just nice to look at and alot of the corps registered are possible scams, why bother?
And about thoose standards, there going to have be way higher than that :)
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Cash Warbash
Caldari
Galactic Accord Senate
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.15 07:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Hello Citizens of Eve
I have read a lot of good Ideas, and a lot of problems and trust concerns. i can't solve these concerns but i had bridge the the gap between stock & trust issues in my corporations & alliance here is how i did it.-ACES guidelines
Let me address some issues one at a time and i promises you will have fun with stock options within the game, and at the same time help you avoid some general pitfalls or hazards.
1)Just as in real life, Stock markets and Stock are only as good as the CEOs and their directors and are maintained in a free market. Currently in the game, only alliances can act as advocates or policing of scam within a alliance setting. If a corporation is just selling random stock on a forum there will be no accountability to anyone. Real life markets are financial alliances all over the world. this must remain true in Eve for the game to function as a free market.
2) why does a corporation want to sell stock? Normally to raise money for the corporation, for investments in bigger than life projects agreed upon by a group of individuals
3) Good stock practices. A corporation which is selling stock also should be awarding free stock to employees(Like Loyalty Points), defenders, miners and people who are helping the alliance as a bonus program. Without stock award programs stock will lose its value and the purchasers-stockholders have no way to recover their loses. in real life employees are awarded stock options, this has to be true for the game too. Your best investors will come from within the alliance or group
4) Dividends; in real life dividends are award to the stockholders every 90 days if the corporation declares a profit. in eve this should be paid every month, with a disclosesure mailing list for all stockholders. If no dividend is paid the CEO should still print a disclosesure with a reason why no dividend is paid, example for no dividend payment is; war or industrial mishap.
5) Stock value; any corporation selling stock for more than 25 mill-ISK for a shares is a poor risk, unless there is a tracking system of dividend payments, disclosesure statements and out of alliances stockholders, which can be verified as non-alts. in general, avoid stock over 25 million-isk per share. This will limited your losses
6)Stock types(helps secondary market sales); in real life stock comes in many types, example-promissory stock, stock, stock option etc. In eve make the terms of stock types easy for non-financial players. first stock branches A) municipal-all executor corporations B) civil-all private corporation without a director or CEO in a Executor corp. stock-issue types; 1)New Issues stock-sold directly from a corporation, 2)Memory Stock-player selling stockholdings and 3)award stock or also called bonus stock-free stock issued to a player for services or killmails, or for being active etc.
7)Secondary market(the real player value); to assure a secondary market of stock for players who wish to sell award stock or memory stock it's the CEO's responsibility to limit the Sale of New issues Stock sold to anyone individual to 3% of the corporation shares. there stockholder can still receive Award Stock, but must seek new purchase stock from current stock holders, know as Memory Stock.
8)Trust issue-value; for stock to work you need a CEO which has appointed several directors who can sell new stock for his corporation. Stock sales must go into the corp. wallet and serve the great good of the corporation over any individual.The CEO must hold 51% of New Issue stock but, only use his vote as veto vote in rare chases, otherwise should not vote. The CEO must return two out of three dividend payments to maintain the corporation financial stability. if the CEO go's inactive, the directors can still split stock and reduce the CEO's stock holdings to less than 1%, award issued stock percent equal to each stockholder shares value to maintain stability. Or in chase of a Director going rogue and stealing a CEO will still maintain the 51% of stock within his corp. to firer the director and bleed that rogue shares down to less than 1% and than award equal value back to the share holders. over time the CEO must issue more that 51% of all shares to the public when maintaining majority shares within his corporation. This will assure a democratic system for your stock votes. if a Executor can turn his alliance corporations into stock companies the alliance will have dividends to fund it instead of fees. This will create a mutual-fund effect investing players which leave your alliance or corporation in seeing your group do well in the future assuring there dividend payments. Any player who turns hostile can have there holdings reduced at anytime. I invite all of you to join us to learn the program.
Cash Warbash
Judge-Advocate General; Legal Agent
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Cash Warbash
Caldari
Galactic Accord Senate
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.15 08:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
In ending; corporations stocks work just the way it is. Leaderships is the issue. Some better tracking is needed, but its leadership that makes it all work. I would not be happy if the stocks options had a major change
tLoyalty is earned through duty and Honorv
Cash Warbash
Judge-Advocate General; Legal Agent
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Kubic Harth
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.16 05:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
I would first like to start my post by stating that there seems to be so much confusion, and I can't get no relief.
I see this whole issue as being about a number of tiered issues that have to be decided upon each in turn before discussing anything further.
First, as the Honorable Cash Warbash has explained above me, private stock trading systems within a corp/alliance structure can and do work efficiently. They promote participation in the organization with stock rewards and the dividends that follow and allow for internal trading of those stocks for those in the organization. The issue with a system as described by Cash above is that it does not lend itself to a CCP-audited/administrated system without dramatic changes.
The differences between a privately traded corporation such as Cash's and publicly traded ones such as what many of you suggest could simply be distinguished by having a tag/flag within a new CCP stock market (abbrev. CCPSM)system. Those corporations that do not wish to be publicly traded should simply be private.
Beyond that, when dealing with the CCPSM there seem to be a number of important concerns/aspects that previous posters to this topic have mentioned. (I will only quote the first to mention them here and not comment myself if their points are clear.)
As Ricdic's Hoe said, then followed up by Matalino:
Quote:
(They)could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through (the) journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
All that we are asking for is the means to contract/trade shares securely.
And as Cailais said:
Quote:
I think we need to understand why a player would want to purchase shares in a corp, and base a system around that. In my view a player would want to buy shares for 3 reasons:
1. Mid term investment & on ward sale: the player intends to sell the shares at some stage for more than the purchase price.
2. Long Term Income generation: the player intends to keep the shares an make his money back via dividends.
3. Political Control: the player wants a say in what the Corp does, from the base of being able to vote on issues, propose votes all the way up to full Corp ownership.
The share seller is selling these attributes - the expected dividend, political control and potential share value.
In order to achieve 'trust' in the share option the purchaser should be able to see the following:
1. The historic dividend pay out per share and the next dividend payout value / share. (this means dividend payouts should be a automated feature).
2. The percentage of ownership. e.g 1000 shares = 25% ownership.
And as joemina brought up, which seems to augment Cailais's point:
Quote:
Corps should not have to distribute dividends. It should be optional. Buyers of stock of corps that don't distribute dividends would be buying stock based in speculated increase in price and control of the company. Distributing dividends would help make a corporation's stock look more interesting to investors. These dividends should be automatic but not be guaranteed.
With the above in mind, it should be very simple for a CCPSM to be created that allows for stock in public corporations to be traded. This stock should be valuable based upon the profits of the corporation selling the stock and dividends should be paid out each period based upon said profit.
Any further specifics of such a system should only come about after a concept is accepted by the governing body (CSM). Anyone interested in such a system should also realize that any such implementation to eve would likely require many revisions before being complete and would not be complete if any obvious and non-obvious menthods of scamming and fraud can be seen.
I hope this post helps clarify and consolidate a number of the ideas floating about and I would welcome discussion with anyone on this subject. Please feel free to send me a message on the forums or in game.
Thank you for your time, Kubic Harth,ACES
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Chomin H'ak
The Trivenerate
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Posted - 2008.09.11 18:58:00 -
[42] - Quote
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe
Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely.
At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality?
Exactly. Creating a secure way to sell AND buyback shares would be step 1.
We already have auditing in the form of the API (increase the amount of information from the full API though). From there everything would already fall into place, and design mechanics issues would become readily apparent.
When WE the players say we want a stock market. We are not asking for an entire new UI overhaul, new windows, major additions. We are asking for a secure and easy way to transfer shares between players. Make shares contractible... the market will create itself.
My sentiments, as well. This doesn't have to break the game, CCP. You want a player-driven market, we need ways to securely implement the purchase/sale of stock.
Originally by: Frenden Dax
My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.13 06:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Create a NPC backbone to fluctuate and grow as normal. Perhaps with ccp able to tweak according to storyline?
The Market history for example can show the history of the stock prices, and other details for the stocks.
Some newb with an obelisk shifting around t2 mods and such creating profit can put himself on the stock market. Perhaps there's some super rich people who could drop 100mil on this stock at high risk. The guy turns out to be legit... your money in dividends returns. Advertise and tell your friends... show them the history. They drop 100mil also. Now this obelisk guy has a couple billion to use. Which he puts to good use. Eventually that person builds credit for himself.
In real life people spend money on penny stocks all the time for the risk... they might drop some on microsoft also.
Risk vs Reward. I know Ricdic(if he's still around) and others have billions and billions and could hear of an obelisk trader. Not care about 100mil and go for it.
Not only that....
CCP themselves can develop indexes of their own. The CCP Industrial Index could be mixed around putting isk on the long term solid people who are established already with rep; they could throw npc corps in the mix; and also be kind enough to throw scrap money off to higher risk people in the attempt to create the ability for legit people to get started.
Not to mention... traders can start from scratch... buy their own stock and such and show good rep.
Yes creating the stock market or at least establish a new part of the normal market for stocks. Would be quite the undertaking... but I think it certainly isnt just for a few.
Not to mention it isnt just for industrial people. Goonfleet corp could put up stocks and their stocks could fluctuate based on how well they are doing. If they take heavy losses and have to pay for ships... their stock drops. ETC ETC.
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"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
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