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3141592653589793238462
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.07.14 19:36:00 -
[91]
Character Farming happens right now, but only power metagamers who can buy timecards with isk or are willing to shell out more money for more accounts do it. The only way that a skill training queue will make this problem worse is if you can queue skill after an account is inactive.
I am for total skill queuing ability, with the rule that the queue turns off once the account isn't payed for anymore.
This will also help with server load, as people will not be logging in and out just to change a skill, and others who just leave the client on until the skill is done training.
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Warlord Neurotoxin
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Posted - 2008.07.15 06:42:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: Octobers Opal
Edited by: Octobers Opal on 14/07/2008 12:21:58
Personally a skill queue is badly needed, and yes with limits.
Limiting a queue to say, 12hours is good. stack as many skills possible up to 12hours....
I don't believe this would encourage farming, but would actually encourage more people to play.
Everyone knows the first skills to train are the learning skills, followed by engineering, electronics etc... Getting from lvl1 -> 3 only takes a matter of hours.
6. Fuel Conservation I (20 minutes, 50 seconds)
7. Electronic Warfare I (26 minutes, 27 seconds)
8. Surgical Strike I (31 minutes, 51 seconds)
9. Trajectory Analysis I (41 minutes, 57 seconds)
10. Tactical Shield Manipulation I (52 minutes, 54 seconds)
11. Targeting II (1 hour, 1 minute, 38 seconds)
12. Energy Systems Operation II (1 hour, 1 minute, 38 seconds)
13. Motion Prediction II (1 hour, 18 minutes, 25 seconds)
14. Weapon Upgrades II (1 hour, 24 minutes, 34 seconds)
15. Fuel Conservation II (1 hour, 38 minutes, 1 second)
16. Electronics Upgrades II (2 hours, 3 minutes, 13 seconds)
17. Electronic Warfare II (2 hours, 3 minutes, 13 seconds)
18. Shield Compensation II (2 hours, 3 minutes, 13 seconds)
19. Surgical Strike II (2 hours, 36 minutes, 48 seconds)
20. Shield Management II (3 hours, 4 minutes, 48 seconds)
21. Propulsion Jamming II (3 hours, 4 minutes, 48 seconds)
22. Trajectory Analysis II (3 hours, 16 minutes, 1 second)
So I am forced to login every 3 hours to play??
Training the short time skills while online and longer skills offline actually doesn't help much...your basically "forced" to login, not play, cause you don't have the skills TO PLAY!...not everyone can put more than 2-3 hours a day onto a game....
That is pretty valid. I have been playing for a year and a half, and there are still skills I have not trained simply because I can't be bothered with playing the login timing game. I know that it is a frustration everyone has, no matter how experienced they are, because there are always skills that will be finished when it isn't convenient. I like that EVE doesn't require skill-grinding, but I feel like the current skill system could use a good queue.
I still think the amount of queue time allotted should be reflected in the character's attributes. The system that I proposed earlier would allow you to simply drag-and-drop this pile of skills into a menu, which should report to you about how long it will be before each skill transition, and even at what EVE time it will happen if undisturbed. Contingencies like training multiple levels of one skill or proper calculation of skills that come after learning skills in the queue can be addressed by CCP in the implementation of it all.
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Herring
Caldari
Alcatraz Inc.
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.15 11:42:00 -
[93]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play.
CCP is sorely mistaken to believe this. Switching skills does NOT encourage play. As stated by many people above me, just make a skill que 1 skill deep and have it disabled if the account expires.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Aeden
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.15 13:27:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Kweel - While everyone keeps suggesting that we need more places for ISK to be spent, I don't think this is one of them.
As you stated yourself, you'd pay a certain fee in order to train skills specific to that station. So no one in their right mind is going to give it up early and waste their investment.
CCP said they wanted to encourage players to stay and play when they log in. So they certainly aren't going to make a system that will restrict you to that station for the next month while your queue trains.
You are right, and another flaw in my kind of system would people who pay x isk to autotrain their character for 10 month then unsuscribe. Both problems could be adressed (for the unsuscribing problem, like only finishing the training skill regardless of a skill queue when unsuscribing), but again, if you don't pay for this service, people will end skill queuing inspace while playing.
Don't forget, it's suposed to be a "i'm offline for that long" tool...
Fetchez la vache !
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Loreliee
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Posted - 2008.07.16 16:48:00 -
[95]
All I really want is the ability to have slot one additional skill after the one that is training.
That way I can reasonably do a 5 or 6 hour skill during the workday and have something else start immediately, instead of having to wait 3 or 4 hours until I make it back home.
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Danyael Tyren
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.16 17:05:00 -
[96]
I seriously cannot understand the "Farmer" argument. They're farmers, they're already logged into the game, you know, farming. They would never even use a queue. A queue would only be useful to people who have large daily chunks of time they cannot be logged in, ie, work, sleeping. Basically the opposite of farmers.
Of course it would have to shut off the queue when the account went inactive, that's pretty common sense. One of the key elements of this game is that the gameplay itself is what "encourages people to log on and play". A queue just makes "leveling" a bit easier and I don't have to freak out when my horrible ISP craps out on me.
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NAPs (nap means we wonĘt kill you today, maybe, but thatĘs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing |
Xaen
Caldari
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.16 21:31:00 -
[97]
Originally by: 3141592653589793238462
Character Farming happens right now, but only power metagamers who can buy timecards with isk or are willing to shell out more money for more accounts do it. The only way that a skill training queue will make this problem worse is if you can queue skill after an account is inactive.
I am for total skill queuing ability, with the rule that the queue turns off once the account isn't payed for anymore.
This will also help with server load, as people will not be logging in and out just to change a skill, and others who just leave the client on until the skill is done training.
What's with all the people supporting this idea, in their comment, but not the checkbox?
Or am I somehow misreading tens of posts?
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Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.16 22:53:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: 3141592653589793238462
Character Farming happens right now, but only power metagamers who can buy timecards with isk or are willing to shell out more money for more accounts do it. The only way that a skill training queue will make this problem worse is if you can queue skill after an account is inactive.
I am for total skill queuing ability, with the rule that the queue turns off once the account isn't payed for anymore.
This will also help with server load, as people will not be logging in and out just to change a skill, and others who just leave the client on until the skill is done training.
What's with all the people supporting this idea, in their comment, but not the checkbox?
Or am I somehow misreading tens of posts?
It's a minutes thread, not a proposal thread, and as such the thumb is largely meaningless. I'm using it largely to indicate threads where I think CCP made the right decision, for example. This is the problem with the thumb - it's way too ambiguous. Give us a proper forum polling mechanism ASAP.
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Fix the forums! |
Petra Arkania
Ajo Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.16 22:58:00 -
[99]
This should go on the top of the list of things to be done.
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Dmian
Gallente
Starline Engineering Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.17 11:37:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Xaen
Clever, well written stuff
This. I just wanted to add some thoughts.
I know I don't represent the regular Eve player (I'm more than 30 years old, with a family and lots of obligations, and I'm a casual player). I also know that CCP has always wanted people to do PvP, that that's the "soul" of the game. Not having a queue has only brought frustration to achieve that.I feel that I can't catch more experienced players. That I will never have the skills to do proper PvP.
Eve is a complex game, it takes a lot of time to understant it, it takes a lot of time to know what you want to do, and how to do it. And it takes time to reach a reasonable level to do what you want to do. I'd like to develop my character in order to have fun, to do PvP, to go to 0.0. But you don't do that so easily, or fast. You need time and experience. And a good level that takes time to achieve.
I don't have much time to play. Sometimes I can sit behind the PC when my kid is sleeping and play a little. Sometimes I can sacrifice a couple of hours of a weekend to play Eve. I try to play when I have a chance. But it's really obnoxious to be forced to turn the PC on and enter the game just to change a skill. And if I don't do that I will end up with big learning gaps, falling behind the other players, feeling unable to reach that PvP goal I have set to myself.
A queue will be very nice, but I believe that scalating just one skill from lvl 1 to lvl 5 will be enough. I don't know why we, casual players, are being punished so hard for not having time to connect that often. That only leads to frustration and that feeling that PvP is very far, that you'll never be able to play the game as intended.
I'll keep playing the game, trying to do my best, but without some kind of help (be it a queue or the ability to lear a skill to lvl 5 straight) I think I'll be a carebear for a very long time. And that's not what I wanted to do in Eve, and I don't think CCP wants that either.
Just that.
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
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Kethry Avenger
VENOM72
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.17 16:36:00 -
[101]
Yes give us a skill queue.
The only limit I see that would be important is to have skills stop training after 24 hours to a week after a subscription hasn't been paid. Afaik you can set some of those crazy long skills and come back in two months and have them train the whole time.
What I really want to see is all characters on my account skill train. But of course you(ccp) like me paying for 3 accounts to actually have 3 viable characters. Any other MMO you have multiple character slots that aren't gimped because you can only level one of them.
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Hihh'Tari
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Posted - 2008.07.17 18:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Alaki Kant
If there is a skill queue, something needs to be done to prevent people from doing something like the following:
1) Create alt and pay for one month
2) Set in-demand long skills
3) Stop paying
4) Sell new HAC pilot for 1 bil in the character bazaar
I see several options to prevent this:
- Skill queue becomes inactive if the account is not paid for (only the current skill will continue training)
- Queue cannot be larger than 1-2 skills
- Total skill training time cannot be longer than n days (7, maybe?)
A combination of all of these is perhaps best.
I like this idea.
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Yon Andon
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Posted - 2008.07.19 00:17:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Karina Harington
I really have to object to the notion that having to change skill training encourages people to play. It encourages them to log in, sure, but only to change their skill. People play, but only because they want to play, not because they have to switch a skill training. Giving us a shallow queue (1-2 extra items) at least solves the problem awkwardly timed skills whilst still not giving many people the ability to just set up their skills and leave the game for months.
Exactly my thought on this, this is one of the most frustrating things in EvE, especially when you're new and training a whole bunch of low-ranks skills to levels 1-3. Just give us a backup-skill to set and be done with it!
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Iam Widdershins
Minmatar
Battleshippe Clockworks
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Posted - 2008.07.20 23:45:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Even a queue limited to 24 hours total training time would solve the basic problem.
Yo listen up, here's the story.
What we REALLY need is a queue limited to 24 hours and one more skill. That is, any number of skills (or, say, up to 16) adding up to no more than 24 hours, then one more. If you only have 16 hour skills to train at the moment and need at least 24 hours, that won't work.
I am a programmer, hear me roar.
Contact: IM me at iam.widdershins@gmail.com for Google Talk or MSN, and IamWiddershins in AIM. The email gets checked like every 60 days. |
Dmian
Gallente
Starline Engineering Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.21 01:04:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Iam Widdershins
reasonable stuff
In practical terms letting a single skill escalate all the way to level 5 is a similar (though longer) approach. But in that way you get around 1 or 2 weeks, I believe, that may be too much.
But what you say makes a lot of sense. And it would make my life a lot easier (specially if the queue is set to 24hs.)
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Thorson Wiles
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Posted - 2008.07.21 02:21:00 -
[106]
From a coding standpoint, building a means to add skill until the total training time is over a given timeframe, 12 or 24 hours. The problem comes in the form of the large player base and the database space this may take up.
The lightest solution, from a database standpoint, is to automatically start training the next level in the completed skill. (1 --> 2 ... --> 5) Actually, there wouldn't be any extra data stored since everything is already there.
No matter what type of automatic skill switching scheme is decided upon, a new method (in code or Stored Procedure) would actually have to be called to make the switch. This code could actually be controlled by a new bit in a (or the) configuration table controlling if skills are switched when the account is expired.
If a progressive (automatic) skill queue is implemented, the skill switching would have to stop, but not if it's limited to a short timeframe.
In all honesty, I don't care what implentation is taken, just that there is an implementation. (Even if it's an API based EveMon type external app, but that's very dangerous to think about, security wise.)
Umm, yeah. Don't have any time to talk now. Maybe later.
Ahh, you wouldn't happen to have any duct-tape, bailing wire or bubble-gun would ya? Don't ask me shy I need them ... it's a long story. |
Caleese
New Eden Research And Design School
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Posted - 2008.07.21 03:09:00 -
[107]
Never understood the crying about having no skill queue. I've trained a couple of characters now and had no problem at all. I could see a problem if once you started training a skill you couldn't change till it finished, but there's nothing stopping you from looking at your skills and seeing that Amarr Cruiser IV will finish while you're at work, so quickly log in and train another skill in the mean time, and switch back when you get home.
Heck pretty much every other MMO you have to be logged in and killing stuff to earn XP in order to increase your skills. Eve takes away that hassle and still people cry about it 
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Think of someone you consider of average intelligence... now realise this. Half the worlds population is dumber than that person.
How does the world survive such stupidity? |
Dmian
Gallente
Starline Engineering Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.21 09:43:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Caleese
Never understood the crying about having no skill queue. I've trained a couple of characters now and had no problem at all. I could see a problem if once you started training a skill you couldn't change till it finished, but there's nothing stopping you from looking at your skills and seeing that Amarr Cruiser IV will finish while you're at work, so quickly log in and train another skill in the mean time, and switch back when you get home.
Heck pretty much every other MMO you have to be logged in and killing stuff to earn XP in order to increase your skills. Eve takes away that hassle and still people cry about it
You don't see a problem because you are being selfish and can't see beyond your own experience.
There are many people that wouldn't even dare to install the game at their work, or simply they don't have the right to do so. I try to do my work at the office and I don't need to be pending over a game. Or to put it differently: I don't play games at work, I do my work at work. I play games when I have time to do it.
And also, I have many responsibilities in my life. I have a small kid and I don't like to be forced to look over a game. Call me casual gamer, but I pay for this game as anybody else. If CCP can do something to improve my gaming experience, I will welcome it.
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Halphas
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:41:00 -
[109]
I still don't understand complaints about the skill system. It's already the best system available to casual players (like me).
I never had problem to switch skill, except maybe 4/5 times where i forgot to switch to a long skill. So, I lost maybe 1 or 2 days of training. And what ? Did it change my gaming experience ? No. And it was my fault, I forgot to switch to the right skill, si I blame myself, not CCP.
I like the skill system we have, I like to think about how to plan my skills, I don't want to queue my skills.
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Dmian
Gallente
Starline Engineering Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.21 17:18:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Halphas
I still don't understand complaints about the skill system. It's already the best system available to casual players (like me).
I never had problem to switch skill, except maybe 4/5 times where i forgot to switch to a long skill. So, I lost maybe 1 or 2 days of training. And what ? Did it change my gaming experience ? No. And it was my fault, I forgot to switch to the right skill, si I blame myself, not CCP.
I like the skill system we have, I like to think about how to plan my skills, I don't want to queue my skills.
Nice for you!
A lot of people don't think that way, though.
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Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
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Salpad
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:53:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Complete Tart
Some great arguments above, which I agree with. A skill queue would not have the adverse affects you think it might CCP... it might actually mean more people making alts, since training small skills would be less of a chore. Hell, I would start a new character but the thing putting me off is the amount of time required to change all those stupid small skills, I just can't be bothered with it
I'm not particularly likely to create an alt, but the thing that puts me off the idea the most is what you've said: Having to go back and mess with all those short-duration trainings.
But how about a simpler solution: Letting the chosen skill train continually until it hits level 5?
That's crude and lacking in sophistication, but usually if a skill is worth training from 2 to 3, it is also worth training from 3 to 4.
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Salpad |
Berendas
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:12:00 -
[112]
I love this idea 
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Salpad
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:22:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Somatic Neuron
Solution: Only apply the skill queue if the account subscription is active. If it is inactive, the queue doesn't apply, but the currently training skill continues to train until it reaches the level it was training towards.
I've made extensive use of the possibility of "dark training", having been unsubscribed for 4 non-consecutive months in order to train 4 hardcore skillz from level 4 to level 5, in the 16 months that I've been an EVE player so far.
I believe I'm pretty much done with "dark training" now, but it has been a great option to have, and I'm sure that many players appreciate it. CCP should think twice before they nerf "dark training", although there's no reason to boost it by allowing skill queues to be utilized while unsubscribed.
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Salpad |
Butterless Toast
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:10:00 -
[114]
Would it help if I said "please?"
Please?!
Quote:
this thread is about serious Internet Spaceship stuff.
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Belmarduk
Amarr
de Prieure
Four Elements
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:49:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Herring
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play.
CCP is sorely mistaken to believe this. Switching skills does NOT encourage play. As stated by many people above me, just make a skill que 1 skill deep and have it disabled if the account expires.
Yep - Wheres the problem? Why is this taking so long - It should have been implemented 5 years ago...
CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
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Betonela
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:40:00 -
[116]
Signed
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Karina Redstar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:41:00 -
[117]
Skill queue ftw !
Sure, with some limitations.. and dual training sounds good.
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Miss KillSome
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:48:00 -
[118]
Hmm, dont give me excuses about waking up in the middle of the night to change skill. Is it so hard to set a longer training skill before u go to bed?
I always have one LONG skill and few shorter ones. I skill shorter ones during my actual gameplay, and longer while i sleep, go to vacations and such.
Tbh. i would use skill queue just for staying away longer period and account inactive. ATM, i am really not in the mood for playing, coz its always lagy during my playtime. So, if i had skill train queue, i would simply put two 14-days skills into training and it doesnt matter, if they both train at the same time with half speed or they are truly queued, i would just let my subscription run out and come back 28 days later to see if anything changed..
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:39:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Nicho Void
I do not support a skill queue.
I stand by the idea that players who are willing to take the time to micromanage their training should have a benefit over those players who do not. Sure, you might lose out on a few hours of training if you choose to sleep instead of changing your skill at 1 am, but where does that logic stop? Should players who choose to sleep get isk deposited into their account because other players got to rat/mission all night?
Thumbs down.
This.
I would only (maybe) support a skill queue if it was like mentioned in the OP: 2 skills can be queued, they train at half speed until the shortest one finishes and then that one trains at full speed again.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
The 13th Gallentean Armed Response
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Posted - 2008.08.02 02:02:00 -
[120]
This is the single best idea that I've ever heard. The dual training mode is also a good idea as long as you can choose to train your skills this way (and choose not to when you feel like it). These changes would realy upgrade the game's quality.
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