Originally by: Amastat

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...On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being 10%, and 10 being 100%...

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Originally by: Amastat

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On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being 10%, and 10 being 100%, how much harder are these spawned NPC ships versus the ones you would find in the missions/complexes?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Stage 1: players protest because enemy empire high sec Faction navy will insta kill ships, so FW can't be done in high sec

Stage 2. someone test it and find tanks capable of withstanding faction navy attacks

Stage 3: Gallente players set up ships with a tank capable of withstanding Caldari faction Navy and start doing mayhem in Jita

Stage 4: Caldari FW players start crying "Exploit, it should not be possible to enter enemy high sec when you are involved in FW"

So decide what you want: Complete invulnerability in faction high sec or not?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Stage 3: Gallente players set up ships with a tank capable of withstanding Caldari faction Navy and start doing mayhem in Jita

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Stage 1: players protest because enemy empire high sec Faction navy will insta kill ships, so FW can't be done in high sec

Stage 2. someone test it and find tanks capable of withstanding faction navy attacks

Stage 3: Gallente players set up ships with a tank capable of withstanding Caldari faction Navy and start doing mayhem in Jita

Stage 4: Caldari FW players start crying "Exploit, it should not be possible to enter enemy high sec when you are involved in FW"

So decide what you want: Complete invulnerability in faction high sec or not?

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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The ships in the screenshots are impossible to have such tanks.

Look at it. A vagabond is going to tank 800DPS and neuts? Is this some kind of Estamel Fitted super passive vagabond? A Claw doing 300m/s can tank FW navy? A t1 Stabber at 0m/s tanks FW navy?

Either Explain how its done otherwise its a exploit, since there is no reasonable way this can happen.

Exaplin how it is done and people will agree that its legit or say why its not legit. Just now it looks like a FW glitch.

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Originally by: Rhanna Khurin

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They're not exploiting you fool. As has been said it's merely that the NPC Navy ships DO appear but often are bugged or lagged out or something and half the time dont even bother to attack.

Stop crying exploit as that implies that all those players are doing something purposely to cause this effect. Which they're not.

My guess is that lag glitches up the ships

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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The ships in the screenshots are impossible to have such tanks.

Look at it. A vagabond is going to tank 800DPS and neuts? Is this some kind of Estamel Fitted super passive vagabond? A Claw doing 300m/s can tank FW navy? A t1 Stabber at 0m/s tanks FW navy?

Either Explain how its done otherwise its a exploit, since there is no reasonable way this can happen.

Exaplin how it is done and people will agree that its legit or say why its not legit. Just now it looks like a FW glitch.

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I don't know if they have found a system to draw aggro to a spider tanked ship or some other method. It is not my problem. If you are convinced it is a bug, petition it as exploit and bug report what you see.

Petition for ship replacement too if you feel it is an exploit.

But as long at is not confirmed as such what I see is some people lamenting that they can be killed in Jita.

About the speed tank and ship not moving, you know perfectly that the overview information in Jita aren't reliable.

As usual the weight of getting proof is on the prosecutors, not on the defendants.

You can call CCP to act as prosecutors, but it seem that some of you have already been judge and jury.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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You cannot speed tank fast enough.

How is this done? Do the navy have like 1 sensor streangth so you can put a ecm drone on each of them? Because I tried that and that did not work. I tried a falcon with 6 racials on test for a cycle and that did not work.

Is it that lag creates major problem? Remember Concord broke 2-3 times before, is Navy broke or is this 100% intended?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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You cannot speed tank fast enough.

How is this done? Do the navy have like 1 sensor streangth so you can put a ecm drone on each of them? Because I tried that and that did not work. I tried a falcon with 6 racials on test for a cycle and that did not work.

Is it that lag creates major problem? Remember Concord broke 2-3 times before, is Navy broke or is this 100% intended?

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ECM drones can be a option, even I doubt it. NPC don't have a sensor strength I think (and they don't care for your sensor strength when using ECM on you, they have a flat chance of success). So it is possible that there is a flat chance of success in blinding them for each ECM system, independently from the ECM strength. So using ECM drones/modules on them could conceivably reduce DPS enough to make them tankable. Especially as NPC aren't so fast in locking you again.

Test it on Sisi. Maybe it is all about breaking lock 1 time and moving out of the aggressing range of the NPC navy unit.

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Originally by: CCP(Player Guide)

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* Players in FW corporations are attacked by enemy Navy NPCs when entering high-security space belonging to either of their enemy factions.
o Example: a player A belonging to the Caldari State entering Gallente Federation or Minmatar Republic high-security space (0.5 and above) will be engaged by faction navies.

Player Aggression in Factional Warfare

Since all corporations in a particular empire faction are permanently at war with their enemies, FW players may be attacked anywhere by their faction opponents .

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Originally by: Khanto Thor

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The NPC Navies will attack, but this does not mean they will destroy the enemy ships!
Why should you be safe in hi-sec when you choose to join a war .

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Originally by: Furb Killer

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Serious khanto, are you so stupid or do you only act like you are?

Read the freaking topic, the problem is that the NPC navies do NOT attack always.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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In other words, NPC's are bugged into not retargeting after being ECM'ed by falcons with racials? This is a serious bug.

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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Read the topic, I don't think I saw anyone saying they should be safe in highsec, only that navy sometimes doesn't work as advertised.

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Originally by: Cadde

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Edited by: Cadde on 02/07/2008 12:19:59
It is NOT an exploit, it is clever use of equipment. Is it really so that the entire Caldari militia is docked at Jita 4-4???
How about NOT docking in the most "popular" station known to eve and form a counter OFFENSIVE. I find it hard to believe the siege is unbreakable.
Further more, if they can do it and get away with it, so can you right? So go to Oursulaert 3-1 (If i recall correctly) and do it yourselves... Oh thats right. "The exploit only works one way" or "Their navy is too tough". How about you quit crying and do something IN GAME about it, you lost this battle. But you haven't lost the war until you surrender!

Nubs

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Originally by: Dr Axler

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Edited by: Dr Axler on 02/07/2008 12:59:09

the navy will spawn. you will get battleships, cruisers and frigates which will start to nos, web and dps allot. there are no bugs, it works just as advertised. you jump in...they spawn, and they attack you.

edit: the joke in your sig made me laugh...

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Excuse me, but the Caldari Navy DID respond. You just didn't see it, and they continued to respond all night, and you continued to not see it.

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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There is no exploit, and petitions have been answered clearly with "as intended."

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Thank you for your concern. I assure you, the Caldari militia was trying very hard - they just weren't accomplishing much.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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.....Because the design of navies was to force hit and runs rather than sieging stations in perfect safely from navy.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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I just want clarification. Is this a exploit or intended? Because if its allowed, then caldari can start doing the same as well

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Originally by: Akita T

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People who have had their petitions rejected in THIS PARTICULAR SCENARIO shoudl re-open them, referencing this thread and expaining the situation better

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Originally by: Akita T

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Excuse me, but the Caldari Navy DID respond. You just didn't see it, and they continued to respond all night, and you continued to not see it.

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Apparently, they didn't respond as they should have responded.
The expected response would have been 2x neutralizing battleships plus one cruiser plus one frigate for each Gallente militia pilot, which should have attacked "their assigned militia pilot", and should have kept respawning soon after getting destroyed.

It is obvious that IF the CN responded, they DIDN'T respond like they should have, because many of the ships there would have had absolutely no freaking chance to survive that.
They either didn't spawn the appropriate number of ships, or the navy ships were lagging worse than the player ships, or they didn't even attack, or any other number of things.

So, NO, the navy DIDN'T respond as intended.

Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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There is no exploit, and petitions have been answered clearly with "as intended."

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Just because it's not classed as an exploit YET doesn't mean it won't be, soon.
You're basically taking advantage of heavy lag to sidestep the normal factional warfare penalties for being in enemy highsec, and then have the gall to call that NOT EXPLOITING ?
The reason petitions have been answered as such was because the GMs responsable didn't actually KNOW all the details of this. People who have had their petitions rejected in THIS PARTICULAR SCENARIO shoudl re-open them, referencing this thread and expaining the situation better.

Now, would you guys have actually been able to TANK the TRUE INTENDED response of the Caldari Navy NPCs then still be able to kill the enemy ships, now, THAT would be peachy.
However, I seriously doubt that's what you were doing. No, strike that. I am completely sure you weren't doing that.

Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Thank you for your concern. I assure you, the Caldari militia was trying very hard - they just weren't accomplishing much.

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That's another thing altogether and doesn't really belong alongside your previous statements.
The NPC ships alone should have been more than enough for the TYPES of ships present at the scene that the Gallente militia was flying.

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Originally by: Dr Axler

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you keep stating that those ships could not tank all that, therefore it must have been an exploit and the navy must be broken.

try it, jump in, and i assure you the navy will respond and blow you up.

the navy isn't broken, they respond as intended. they do spawn in exactly correct numbers, and they do exactly what they are meant to do, they web you, they nos you from extreme ranges for extreme amounts, and they do insane alphas.
all that happened, therefore the navy isn't bugged or broken, and you can easily try that for yourself.

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Originally by: Akita T

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P.S. I guess I should try to see for myself not rely on 2nd hand info. When's your next raid ?

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Originally by: Akita T

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Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 13:55:28
Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 13:52:32

Well, reading your previous posts I can pretty much figure what you're doing - you just keep warping around as soon as the battleship NPCs lock on to you and start neutralizing you too badly, and just attack targets of opportunity before that, then warp out and keep warping until your're fully repaired and at decent capacitor levels... then repeat the process.
Basically, a bunch of semi-tanked tacklers could easily wipe out your entire fleet by just keeping you in place long enough for the NPCs to finish you off

Well then, good job on doing it so nicely so far

P.S. Or, I suppose, you could be also using a slightly more lame remote assist tactic which I won't mention right now in full detail
P.P.S. Or you could also be using tactical warps too, as means of delaying the NPC response, if the navy NPCs are (still) unable of tactical warps like CONCORD can already do.

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