Originally by: Amastat

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...On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being 10%, and 10 being 100%...

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Originally by: Amastat

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On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being 10%, and 10 being 100%, how much harder are these spawned NPC ships versus the ones you would find in the missions/complexes?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Stage 1: players protest because enemy empire high sec Faction navy will insta kill ships, so FW can't be done in high sec

Stage 2. someone test it and find tanks capable of withstanding faction navy attacks

Stage 3: Gallente players set up ships with a tank capable of withstanding Caldari faction Navy and start doing mayhem in Jita

Stage 4: Caldari FW players start crying "Exploit, it should not be possible to enter enemy high sec when you are involved in FW"

So decide what you want: Complete invulnerability in faction high sec or not?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Stage 3: Gallente players set up ships with a tank capable of withstanding Caldari faction Navy and start doing mayhem in Jita

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Stage 1: players protest because enemy empire high sec Faction navy will insta kill ships, so FW can't be done in high sec

Stage 2. someone test it and find tanks capable of withstanding faction navy attacks

Stage 3: Gallente players set up ships with a tank capable of withstanding Caldari faction Navy and start doing mayhem in Jita

Stage 4: Caldari FW players start crying "Exploit, it should not be possible to enter enemy high sec when you are involved in FW"

So decide what you want: Complete invulnerability in faction high sec or not?

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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The ships in the screenshots are impossible to have such tanks.

Look at it. A vagabond is going to tank 800DPS and neuts? Is this some kind of Estamel Fitted super passive vagabond? A Claw doing 300m/s can tank FW navy? A t1 Stabber at 0m/s tanks FW navy?

Either Explain how its done otherwise its a exploit, since there is no reasonable way this can happen.

Exaplin how it is done and people will agree that its legit or say why its not legit. Just now it looks like a FW glitch.

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Originally by: Rhanna Khurin

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They're not exploiting you fool. As has been said it's merely that the NPC Navy ships DO appear but often are bugged or lagged out or something and half the time dont even bother to attack.

Stop crying exploit as that implies that all those players are doing something purposely to cause this effect. Which they're not.

My guess is that lag glitches up the ships

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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The ships in the screenshots are impossible to have such tanks.

Look at it. A vagabond is going to tank 800DPS and neuts? Is this some kind of Estamel Fitted super passive vagabond? A Claw doing 300m/s can tank FW navy? A t1 Stabber at 0m/s tanks FW navy?

Either Explain how its done otherwise its a exploit, since there is no reasonable way this can happen.

Exaplin how it is done and people will agree that its legit or say why its not legit. Just now it looks like a FW glitch.

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I don't know if they have found a system to draw aggro to a spider tanked ship or some other method. It is not my problem. If you are convinced it is a bug, petition it as exploit and bug report what you see.

Petition for ship replacement too if you feel it is an exploit.

But as long at is not confirmed as such what I see is some people lamenting that they can be killed in Jita.

About the speed tank and ship not moving, you know perfectly that the overview information in Jita aren't reliable.

As usual the weight of getting proof is on the prosecutors, not on the defendants.

You can call CCP to act as prosecutors, but it seem that some of you have already been judge and jury.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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You cannot speed tank fast enough.

How is this done? Do the navy have like 1 sensor streangth so you can put a ecm drone on each of them? Because I tried that and that did not work. I tried a falcon with 6 racials on test for a cycle and that did not work.

Is it that lag creates major problem? Remember Concord broke 2-3 times before, is Navy broke or is this 100% intended?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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You cannot speed tank fast enough.

How is this done? Do the navy have like 1 sensor streangth so you can put a ecm drone on each of them? Because I tried that and that did not work. I tried a falcon with 6 racials on test for a cycle and that did not work.

Is it that lag creates major problem? Remember Concord broke 2-3 times before, is Navy broke or is this 100% intended?

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ECM drones can be a option, even I doubt it. NPC don't have a sensor strength I think (and they don't care for your sensor strength when using ECM on you, they have a flat chance of success). So it is possible that there is a flat chance of success in blinding them for each ECM system, independently from the ECM strength. So using ECM drones/modules on them could conceivably reduce DPS enough to make them tankable. Especially as NPC aren't so fast in locking you again.

Test it on Sisi. Maybe it is all about breaking lock 1 time and moving out of the aggressing range of the NPC navy unit.

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Originally by: CCP(Player Guide)

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* Players in FW corporations are attacked by enemy Navy NPCs when entering high-security space belonging to either of their enemy factions.
o Example: a player A belonging to the Caldari State entering Gallente Federation or Minmatar Republic high-security space (0.5 and above) will be engaged by faction navies.

Player Aggression in Factional Warfare

Since all corporations in a particular empire faction are permanently at war with their enemies, FW players may be attacked anywhere by their faction opponents .

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Originally by: Khanto Thor

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The NPC Navies will attack, but this does not mean they will destroy the enemy ships!
Why should you be safe in hi-sec when you choose to join a war .

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Originally by: Furb Killer

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Serious khanto, are you so stupid or do you only act like you are?

Read the freaking topic, the problem is that the NPC navies do NOT attack always.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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In other words, NPC's are bugged into not retargeting after being ECM'ed by falcons with racials? This is a serious bug.

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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Read the topic, I don't think I saw anyone saying they should be safe in highsec, only that navy sometimes doesn't work as advertised.

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Originally by: Cadde

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Edited by: Cadde on 02/07/2008 12:19:59
It is NOT an exploit, it is clever use of equipment. Is it really so that the entire Caldari militia is docked at Jita 4-4???
How about NOT docking in the most "popular" station known to eve and form a counter OFFENSIVE. I find it hard to believe the siege is unbreakable.
Further more, if they can do it and get away with it, so can you right? So go to Oursulaert 3-1 (If i recall correctly) and do it yourselves... Oh thats right. "The exploit only works one way" or "Their navy is too tough". How about you quit crying and do something IN GAME about it, you lost this battle. But you haven't lost the war until you surrender!

Nubs

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Originally by: Dr Axler

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Edited by: Dr Axler on 02/07/2008 12:59:09

the navy will spawn. you will get battleships, cruisers and frigates which will start to nos, web and dps allot. there are no bugs, it works just as advertised. you jump in...they spawn, and they attack you.

edit: the joke in your sig made me laugh...

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Excuse me, but the Caldari Navy DID respond. You just didn't see it, and they continued to respond all night, and you continued to not see it.

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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There is no exploit, and petitions have been answered clearly with "as intended."

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Thank you for your concern. I assure you, the Caldari militia was trying very hard - they just weren't accomplishing much.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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.....Because the design of navies was to force hit and runs rather than sieging stations in perfect safely from navy.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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I just want clarification. Is this a exploit or intended? Because if its allowed, then caldari can start doing the same as well

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Originally by: Akita T

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People who have had their petitions rejected in THIS PARTICULAR SCENARIO shoudl re-open them, referencing this thread and expaining the situation better

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Originally by: Akita T

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Excuse me, but the Caldari Navy DID respond. You just didn't see it, and they continued to respond all night, and you continued to not see it.

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Apparently, they didn't respond as they should have responded.
The expected response would have been 2x neutralizing battleships plus one cruiser plus one frigate for each Gallente militia pilot, which should have attacked "their assigned militia pilot", and should have kept respawning soon after getting destroyed.

It is obvious that IF the CN responded, they DIDN'T respond like they should have, because many of the ships there would have had absolutely no freaking chance to survive that.
They either didn't spawn the appropriate number of ships, or the navy ships were lagging worse than the player ships, or they didn't even attack, or any other number of things.

So, NO, the navy DIDN'T respond as intended.

Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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There is no exploit, and petitions have been answered clearly with "as intended."

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Just because it's not classed as an exploit YET doesn't mean it won't be, soon.
You're basically taking advantage of heavy lag to sidestep the normal factional warfare penalties for being in enemy highsec, and then have the gall to call that NOT EXPLOITING ?
The reason petitions have been answered as such was because the GMs responsable didn't actually KNOW all the details of this. People who have had their petitions rejected in THIS PARTICULAR SCENARIO shoudl re-open them, referencing this thread and expaining the situation better.

Now, would you guys have actually been able to TANK the TRUE INTENDED response of the Caldari Navy NPCs then still be able to kill the enemy ships, now, THAT would be peachy.
However, I seriously doubt that's what you were doing. No, strike that. I am completely sure you weren't doing that.

Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Thank you for your concern. I assure you, the Caldari militia was trying very hard - they just weren't accomplishing much.

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That's another thing altogether and doesn't really belong alongside your previous statements.
The NPC ships alone should have been more than enough for the TYPES of ships present at the scene that the Gallente militia was flying.

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Originally by: Dr Axler

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you keep stating that those ships could not tank all that, therefore it must have been an exploit and the navy must be broken.

try it, jump in, and i assure you the navy will respond and blow you up.

the navy isn't broken, they respond as intended. they do spawn in exactly correct numbers, and they do exactly what they are meant to do, they web you, they nos you from extreme ranges for extreme amounts, and they do insane alphas.
all that happened, therefore the navy isn't bugged or broken, and you can easily try that for yourself.

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Originally by: Akita T

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P.S. I guess I should try to see for myself not rely on 2nd hand info. When's your next raid ?

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Originally by: Akita T

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Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 13:55:28
Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 13:52:32

Well, reading your previous posts I can pretty much figure what you're doing - you just keep warping around as soon as the battleship NPCs lock on to you and start neutralizing you too badly, and just attack targets of opportunity before that, then warp out and keep warping until your're fully repaired and at decent capacitor levels... then repeat the process.
Basically, a bunch of semi-tanked tacklers could easily wipe out your entire fleet by just keeping you in place long enough for the NPCs to finish you off

Well then, good job on doing it so nicely so far

P.S. Or, I suppose, you could be also using a slightly more lame remote assist tactic which I won't mention right now in full detail
P.P.S. Or you could also be using tactical warps too, as means of delaying the NPC response, if the navy NPCs are (still) unable of tactical warps like CONCORD can already do.

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Come have a look. We won't bite...much.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Doing this is not considered an exploit by our dear Customer Support team.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Doing this is not considered an exploit by our dear Customer Support team.

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Quote:

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However, it's obvious when a bunch of light ships can sit around at 0/ms in very hi sec of their enemies faction that the enemy faction navies are not working as intended.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Doing this is not considered an exploit by our dear Customer Support team.

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Which tactic?
The fight while under NPC fire? Or the fight without NPC targeting as you relax version? Or both. Im planning to do the second one tonight

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 02/07/2008 16:03:14
I'm amazed at the number of people commenting with no direct knowledge or experience with what's going on.

What's described in the Minmatar thread, to someone not familiar with the tactic, would look exactly the same as what we did. I strongly suspect that - like in our case in Jita - people with not enough information for a valid analysis are making sweeping conclusions that project failure on someone else, rather than on their own lack of understanding.

Maybe this is a silly suggestion, but perhaps people should reconsider commenting on issues that they have nothing but hearsay and fourth-hand reports to base their opinions on.

Wait. This is the internet...that IS a silly suggestion.

/me wanders off.

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What's described in the Minmatar thread, to someone not familiar with the tactic, would look exactly the same as what we did. I strongly suspect that - like in our case in Jita - people with not enough information for a valid analysis are making sweeping conclusions that project failure on someone else, rather than on their own lack of understanding.

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Originally by: Spurty

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I don't care what it is, as long as I can do it as well ;-)

There is a solution, drop 10+ militia in BS on top of them so they can't warp away from the navy and start killing them.

Its called an exploit as the navy is DESIGNED to deal with this threat and they can not and do not appear to escalate their attempts.

Its not a bug, nothing crashes. Its just interesting to see the navy spawn code so ineffective at dealing with the threat.

Something I too wish to 'exploit' myself. Call it 'not an exploit' all you want, its clearly one though and as long as I don't get my account poo pooed, I'm going to abuse it as well when I get back from my holidays with 10 friends.

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Originally by: Akita T

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The only PROBABLE exception would be tactical warps - I haven't tried, so I don't know if the navy NPCs are capable (like CONCORD is now, after one relatively recent upgrade) of tactical warps - if the NPCs can't do it, you could probably warp in at a distance, then make a tactical warp, then they'd slow-boat to you ; that's how CONCORD used to work too a long time ago, and that's how people used to delay getting killed long enough to kill the target (it wasn't an exploit, but CONCORD was buffed appropriately afterwards).

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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ECM/Dampen yeah yeah we know. Anyone being able to permajam Milita Navy = Stupid but hey, we dont make the rules. Solution is more navy warp in every 20 seconds so permajaming only buys you time, not permanant immunity since navy forget to retarget you and go back to eating donuts etc.

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What's described in the Minmatar thread, to someone not familiar with the tactic, would look exactly the same as what we did.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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I'm honestly a little surprised by caldari upset at this. Gallente finally learned from our repeated incursions into high sec space and decided to return the favor. You should know from our own ops that high sec != complete safety from enemy militias.

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What's described in the Minmatar thread, to someone not familiar with the tactic, would look exactly the same as what we did.

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If that's the thread I'm thinking of, what happened was the NPC navies not showing up at all (for a period of 20 minutes).

If that is what your attack looked like, pretty clearly the NPC navies are not functioning as it should.

Note that the navy showing up and chasing one guy off somewhere while everyone else can sit unmolested at a gate/station is still in the category of 'not functioning as intended'.

However, if it's ruled as not an exploit, everyone should adapt and do the same thing!

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Originally by: Faife

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C'mon people, they clearly answered all questions of "are we safe in high sec" with "no, but a navy will spawn to help you"

what part of that is confusing? you're not safe, you simply have some assistance.

and for god's sake, all it takes to break these ships is a mwd and a scram. take off some of those shield extenders and pvp fit.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Not really true. You can prevent navy form spawning ongrid. Thats the problem number 1. Another problem is that navy that do spawn, you can prevent them from ever targeting you. Thats problem number 2 etc etc

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Originally by: Faife

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C'mon people, they clearly answered all questions of "are we safe in high sec" with "no, but a navy will spawn to help you"

what part of that is confusing?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Akita T

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The only PROBABLE exception would be tactical warps - I haven't tried, so I don't know if the navy NPCs are capable (like CONCORD is now, after one relatively recent upgrade) of tactical warps - if the NPCs can't do it, you could probably warp in at a distance, then make a tactical warp, then they'd slow-boat to you ; that's how CONCORD used to work too a long time ago, and that's how people used to delay getting killed long enough to kill the target (it wasn't an exploit, but CONCORD was buffed appropriately afterwards).

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Faction navy is not Concord. They aren't there to utterly annihilate the target. They are there to attack and disturb it, to make more difficult to attack FW targets in high sec, to make AFKing in hostile territory extremely dangerous.
There is no reason to give them ista warp to target, insta blind and bind target and a lot of reasons to make them tankable, avoidable and killable.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Hypothetically speaking, IF they lack tactical warp capability and that WOULD have been intended for them, then they wouldn't spawn initially right on top of you, but many kilometers away.
So, yeah, give them the 10-15-20-whatever seconds delay before they follow you in a tactical warp, but as they do have warp capability (following you in normal warp), it follows that they should also have tactical warp capabilities, just like player ships.
I seriously doubt tac-warping 200-300 km to make'em slowboat 40-60 seconds or more towards you would have been an intended feature.
Wouldn't you say so ?

Yes, they're supposed to be (borderline) tankable, they're supposed to be avoidable, but they're also supposed to be a major inconvenience if you decide to stay and fight (so you would have to fight severely outmatched in ENEMY highsec).
Heck, the NPC response should be not only system-security dependant, but also ship-class dependant, if it isn't already.
If not, what's next ? Somebody who owns one of the Caldari highsec Moros having his corp join the Gallente militia ?

Killable ? Yeah, sure... then a couple of seconds later, another spawns to replace it.
If you enjoy collecting navy tags or somesuch (do they even drop them?) then go ahead.

Avoidable or tankable ?
That for sure. But for a short while !
Not for LONGER than a couple of seconds, a minute or two tops.
Avoidable while sitting in a spot ? No way.
Perma-tankable ? No way either, well, at least not in 0.9 and 1.0 ! And even in 0.8, it should be damned hard to come close to a perma-tank.

Also, I'm sure nobody was even mentioning infi-ECMing, -100% webbing nor scrambling navy NPCs.



The intended purpose of FW was to draw people to LOWSEC, not to enable gankfests in enemy highsec.
Hit-and-run tactics in enemy highsec are fine and dandy, as long as you can barely get a couple of shots and then be forced by the NPC assault to warp out or be destroyed in a matter of 20-50 seconds or so, depending on system sec rating and ship used.
If not, then the whole concept was pointless : what's there to draw you into lowsec, if you can easily raid the enemy highsec systems ; what's there to keep you in the FW, if you're not significantly safer in your own empire's highsec than in contested territory ; and so on and so forth.

So, while this was an admirable display of player skill, this is about on par with the Yulay CONCORD incident, which triggered significant changes in how CONCORD works.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You are not speaking of what they are but of what you fell they should be.

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You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 21:09:12

Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You are not speaking of what they are but of what you fell they should be.

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You're saying this as if it's a bad thing.

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You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.

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20-50 seconds PER WARP. That's a huge difference. As it forces you to apply almost only hit-and-run tactics.
You can survive as long as you like (or are allowed to, by enemy militia players) in any one enemy system.
You just can't camp a single spot continously.

And by the way, these guys, the ones this thread is about, they specifically stated that's what they were doing : employing hit and run tactics.
Now, I haven't witnessed it first-hand, so I'll withold further comment on their particular tactic until I see it with my own eyes.
Still, one CAN speculate on how things are or should be regardless.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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20-50 seconds from warp to warp. What they will kill? T1 frigates?[...]
And yes, as your idea is that losses in friendly high sec are unacceptable (that would be the results of your proposals) changuing FW navyes how you want them is bad.

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You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Quote:

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You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.

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What nonsense.

If you have a minute after every warp you can easily go around killing targets of opportunity with your gang. Haulers, afk pilots using autopilot, mining barges in belts, any kind of frigates not expecting you, etc.

If you insta asploded as soon as you entered hi sec, you couldn't do any of this.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Doing this is not considered an exploit by our dear Customer Support team.

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Originally by: Steve Celeste

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Doing this is not considered an exploit by our dear Customer Support team.

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Can you confirm that the Navy is bugged and will, in some cases, not show up at all?

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I love people that do this kind of game with numbers. 20-50 seconds is almost a minute, with a minute people can klll afk haulers. Have you noticed that you have multiplied the time between x3 and x1,2?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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2. I think I have puzzled what you mean there, but if FW navies are intended to work like you say or not is a thing CCP know and eventually should say so.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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1. Still 20-50 between warp in and warp out, so what is the edit?

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Originally by: Corduroy Rab

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Went to a cald high sec station in Yashunen and set up a bm 200m from the station in my pod. Came back in a rookie ship, waited for the faction navy to spawn and engage me, then warped to the station. When I entered warp they de-spawned, and when I landed they re-spawned about 19km from me.

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Originally by: Cadde

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I'd say: "You signed up for the war, now fight it!"

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Originally by: Calypso's Wrath

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I love the taste of Caldari tears!

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Originally by: Vyktor Abyss

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Boromir (terrible name btw)

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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So the real question is, what typs of tactics are allowed?
1. Buffer tanked gank squads - Allowed and perfect for high sec ganking enemy navy. They can tank NPC's for a long time.
2. Tricking Navy to be stuck in wrong grid, thus never warping in - Yes, you can guess how to do this. Its pretty shabby tbh. Is this a exploit? Or is it allowed?
3. Navy never targeting - Seems to be a bug? But permajaming or superdamping navy is possible, but they forget targets quite often and that is a problem. 1 Falcon can in theory take care of infinite navy ships. Allowed or bugged or both?
4. Outrunning Navy - Allowed and a good tactic. Navy are chasing you so you are on the run.

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The Navies have finally twigged that two frigates and a cruiser aren't really a significant threat these days, so they've upgraded their rapid response teams. Considerably. They won't scramble, but if you hang around expect to get hurt. (Sentry guns, CONCORD, Customs and Police will all leave you alone though, provided you don't do anything to antagonize them).

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Kery Syander

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Yeah, I'm gonna join the lulz of people getting upset about signing up for factional warfare and then being upset when they die in highsec. What exactly from CCP made you think that this would be IMPOSSIBLE?

Also, to all the people foaming blindly about how CCP has said this isn't an exploit... well CCP also called POS bowling and BACON not exploits at one time or another.

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Originally by: 00110000

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I just saw a report where Jita was on the "Most Dangerous Systems" list. :)

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Please explain to me how a lone stationary War Target can do this and it be considered "working as intended"?

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Galyrion

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Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space.

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They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space.

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And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Lord Blandness

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Originally by: Galyrion

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Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space.

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Could you elaborate? Because people are saying you sat on the gate for 20 mins w/o being shot at. Are they telling the truth, or were they missing something? Did you out-fly the navy, or use a trick of some sort? I'm not judging you guys, I am just curious.

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The navy was shooting for the entire time we were present in the system with the same mechanics used in jita at a larger scale

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Galyrion

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Originally by: Lord Blandness

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Originally by: Galyrion

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Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space.

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Could you elaborate? Because people are saying you sat on the gate for 20 mins w/o being shot at. Are they telling the truth, or were they missing something? Did you out-fly the navy, or use a trick of some sort? I'm not judging you guys, I am just curious.

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The navy was shooting for the entire time we were present in the system with the same mechanics used in jita at a larger scale

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now the odd part. In an Anathama cloaked at the mad gate I watched them operate for a while. Huginn sitting on the gate at 0km, rest of fleet at various distance warping in and out. 8 Saram Navy ships 10km out from the gate and not attacking the Huginn. Huginn never warped or moved. Seemed odd so petitioned it.

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Interesting, so they were shooting each member of your gang, and presumably nos'ing each member, and yet you (Prison Break Inc) and The Dead Parrot Shoppe have found a way to tank them. All I gotta say is hats off to those two corps for figuring out this riddle, nice job gents.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Le Skunk

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Edited by: Le Skunk on 03/07/2008 03:09:21

Well my alt lost a few ships in the process, but think Ive got this one working in some form

The clues in the original picture

SKUNK

EDIT: If its what I did - its also not an exploit.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Quote:

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I love people that do this kind of game with numbers. 20-50 seconds is almost a minute, with a minute people can klll afk haulers. Have you noticed that you have multiplied the time between x3 and x1,2?

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I you seriously going to argue that my rounding 50s up to a minute is more egregious than your rounding it down to 0s and claiming it's exactly the same as instant exploding?

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Issue is about the 2-3 compleatly dubious methods used. The only legal method is shooting under NPC fire or before NPC turn up.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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You can prevent Navy from ever turning up. Another method is to stop navy every targeting you, which is exactly the same as the old Concord not firing bug from a while back

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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From the Dev Blog

Quote:

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The Navies have finally twigged that two frigates and a cruiser aren't really a significant threat these days, so they've upgraded their rapid response teams. Considerably. They won't scramble, but if you hang around expect to get hurt. (Sentry guns, CONCORD, Customs and Police will all leave you alone though, provided you don't do anything to antagonize them).

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Bolded the important bit. People from opposing factions are hanging around and not getting hurt.

My test kestrel got insta-popped by a faction BS, so I imagine the falcon, claw, hawk and all those assault frigates wouldn't last long under fire from their respective factional navy spawns.

But maybe this is all just a wording issue. If it's *not* a wording issue, I'd like to see how anyone can equate sitting in a hostile system without taking any damage, much less a lock at "hanging round and getting hurt".

If it is a wording issue, then what is it? If you hang around solo expect to get hurt, if you come as a gang you'll have to wait till they catch your mate?

And I don't care if it's 'revealing your tactics', if you're not providing solid fact to show you're not doing anything untoward then gtfo to be honest, because that dev blog pretty much reads to me that if you're not having to *personally* dodge npcs or tank some damage (and mounting all that NPC response onto one character, if possible, is not *personally*), then something untoward is going on. If all you guys are tanking/spider tanking spawns, destroying spawns, speedtanking spawns, permajamming spawns, fine. Keep it up. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that all those different ships in that picture could each be tanking a 2 BS, 2 Frig and 2 Cruiser spawn you get in Jita (iirc).

On an aside too, I've considered the neutral-remote-repper idea, but I don't want to do that because it's pretty lame, and I'd hope the game mechanics wouldn't allow it without repercussions (though i imagine it does allow it)

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Well Sid, Your post, is the first rational approach I've seen thus far, and in saying that.. ALL Caldari should listen up..ANYONE can do this! 07 Sid

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Doesn't mean it's healthy for the game. Suddenly it's revealed that there's a bug you can use to get a polaris frigate. ANYONE CAN DO IT, so it mustn't be a problem. Next thing you know, the only way to stand a chance in combat is to fly one of those, everybody is doing it and the game devolves to a pile of toilet sweepings.

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Originally by: Lord Blandness

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We already knew it wasn't an exploit from Wranglers post, I just want to know what they are doing, so spill the beans Skunk.

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Quote:

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1) Wrangler as spoke for CCP saying tha twhat was done in Jita is not an exploit. I suppose that they have checked the log and have much more informations than you or me.

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Quote:

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2) You and a lot of Caladari sympathizers say "It is an exploit, it is not possible to do it without using an exploit".

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3) So you are convinced that CCP is cheating to help the Gallente militia or you are convinced that they are incompetent. Care to explain what of the two is your opinion?

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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Quote:

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3) So you are convinced that CCP is cheating to help the Gallente militia or you are convinced that they are incompetent. Care to explain what of the two is your opinion?

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I think you've got me confused with masternerdguy here. I don't believe CCP is cheating one bit, nor do I say it anywhere in my post.

PS: Find me exactly where I said "This is an exploit" and I'll stop denying I called this an exploit. But it has to be those words. Anything like "Something isn't right here" or along the same lines is just me speculating on what could be a broken game mechanic. Same goes for me cooking up a hypothetical that could mean this is an exploit. I don't know the full facts, and I'm not committed to saying this *is* an exploit.

edit: wording

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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And I don't care if it's 'revealing your tactics', if you're not providing solid fact to show you're not doing anything untoward then gtfo to be honest, because that dev blog pretty much reads to me that if you're not having to *personally* dodge npcs or tank some damage (and mounting all that NPC response onto one character, if possible, is not *personally*), then something untoward is going on. If all you guys are tanking/spider tanking spawns, destroying spawns, speedtanking spawns, permajamming spawns, fine. Keep it up. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that all those different ships in that picture could each be tanking a 2 BS, 2 Frig and 2 Cruiser spawn you get in Jita (iirc).

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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3) So you are convinced that CCP is cheating to help the Gallente militia or you are convinced that they are incompetent. Care to explain what of the two is your opinion?

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Originally by: Galyrion

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Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space.

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Originally by: Lord Blandness

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Originally by: Galyrion

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Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space.

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Could you elaborate? Because people are saying you sat on the gate for 20 mins w/o being shot at. Are they telling the truth, or were they missing something? Did you out-fly the navy, or use a trick of some sort? I'm not judging you guys, I am just curious.

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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I want to know what this mechanic is mostly so I can make a personal judgement about it. I'm not innocent of using broken game mechanics which aren't exploits (MWD/cloak warpoff), but there are some I despise also (logoffski/emergency warp hopping).

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Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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I'm in your screenshot!

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Quote:

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so, you want the tactic laid out for you step by step. That way you can use it since you obviously aren't sharp enough figure out how to replicate what they did.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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So yes increasing time to 1 minute is a bigger difference than paragoning 20 seconds to 0.

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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Quote:

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so, you want the tactic laid out for you step by step. That way you can use it since you obviously aren't sharp enough figure out how to replicate what they did.

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Too bad I didn't have a client accessible when I posted all that speculation, I could've saved you the time and effort typing that sentence. You almost sound convincing, until you realise you're trying to tell me "I haven't figured it out" when I didn't even need a client to work it out. I just needed it to be certain.

My Control Test:
I created two spots 200k apart. Warped to one in an ibis, navy spawned 20k away. Warped to the other, navy visibly despawned instantly and respawned 20k away from me.

My actual test:
Using an ibis with one light drone, I warped to one point, launched the drone and set it onto one of the faction ships, then warped to the other spot 200k away. From there I observed the faction navy remain behind and engage the drone. Granted one light drone doesn't last long on the navy, but the effect was definately visible.

So what's that mean?
The poor mans version of this tactic is to spawn a bunch of drones somewhere and have the navy engage them. My guess (guess only because I haven't tested this) is to get someone else to get the aggro instead of one of your drones. What better choice than a speed-tanked frigate for something like that? And oh yeah, you can definately speed tank them (to whoever said you couldn't before).

None of that's an exploit. And it even makes sense, if they were engaging the navy forces. Set up two gangs, one to engage and draw ships away from one group of fighters while the others work unhindered taking out war targets.

But I still heartily stand by the fact it's pretty broken in terms of having a large amount of numerous faction navy vessels chasing one tiny vessel, and broken in the same way that, as a caldari militia pilot, I can venture into Gallente space with a neutral alt or two perma-repping my tank while engaging the navy NPC's, who don't care to do a thing about another ship from a non-militia corp aiding their enemy to destroy them.

All in all, as I said before, pretty damn corny, but not an exploit.

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Quote:

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It's impressive how authoritatively and convincingly you sound while being wrong on nearly every point. Go ahead and try to run a raid into Oursulaert with this set of tactics.... just let me know when so I can bring popcorn and salvagers. Laughing

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 03/07/2008 15:05:26

Quote:

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It's impressive how authoritatively and convincingly you sound while being wrong on nearly every point. Go ahead and try to run a raid into Oursulaert with this set of tactics.... just let me know when so I can bring popcorn and salvagers. Laughing

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From this point on I couldn't care less. We could bandy on forever about this, your opinion being one of "Jmanis is wrong and I'll tell him",, or "Damn, he's worked it out, I'd better try and pretend he's wrong", and unless you explain how you do it, you'll never definitively show that I'm actually wrong.

Regardless, I've proven that Navy NPCs don't respawn on you provided they've obtained something else to aggress that isn't you, and it's pretty obvious how that can extend into situations which are just downright ridiculous. Unless you want to tell us how you're doing it, you've got no ground to stand on whatsoever.

Man, I feel like I'm in one of those religious discussions where you ask someone to prove something and they say their proof is "God told me".

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Quote:

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just let us know when you go try it to see you fail... or hell see you succeed. be interesting either way.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Arkole Blake

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Want to know what they are doing?

Here ya go:

1 Onyx with 1 shield extender and passive resist mods. (Must be able to maintain high resist with 0 cap)
2 Basilisk with large remote shield reps,1 energy transfer and non militia pilots.

Send these three into the system and safe spot them,Basilisk Set reps on the Onyx and energy transfers on each other.
Wait for all currently spawned opposing faction npcs to aggress the Onyx.
Send in fast ships one at a time and let them get acquire the newly spawned npcs
Warp to the SS, wait for npcs to arrive, warp off. Npcs will now attack the onyx instead of giving chase.
Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.

Your fleet is now free to camp the gates and stations.

I'm sure I've gotten some of the details wrong, but those are the basics. I would strongly advise practicing it on the test server first to get it down. For a decently organized corp its quite simple, if you don't have a group of competent pilots that will listen and work together don't even bother trying you'll just die.

How do I know this is how they do it?
Check my employment history

Why am I posting it here?
That's not really your concern.


/me waves the finger to Fried on the way out.

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Originally by: Arkole Blake

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Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.

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Originally by: Akita T

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In the search of ways to find out how one group of players "broke" the system, it appears Le Skunk has found several other ways of breaking the system
Good job, man !

Now, if only CCP would stop playing the "yhh, umm, err, nono, it's really working as intended" card now and get their asses in gear and change the NPCs accordingly (so, you know, they actually do what they're supposed to do, meaning obligate enemy militia to warp off fairly frequently)... now that would be just peachy.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Originally by: Arkole Blake

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Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.

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Hmm, that's just... ungh... stupid.
If that's true, you could as well send in 10 passively-tanked ships that can take care of their own spawns, safespot them randomly, then all the rest are free to do whatever they please.
Stupid, stupid, stupid

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Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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...
So what's that mean?
The poor mans version of this tactic is to spawn a bunch of drones somewhere and have the navy engage them. My guess (guess only because I haven't tested this) is to get someone else to get the aggro instead of one of your drones. ...

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It's impressive how authoritatively and convincingly you sound while being wrong on nearly every point....

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Originally by: Arkole Blake

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Post about how you draw the NPC aggro aggro onto someone else

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Quote:

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Hmm, that's just... ungh... stupid.
If that's true, you could as well send in 10 passively-tanked ships that can take care of their own spawns, safespot them randomly, then all the rest are free to do whatever they please.
Stupid, stupid, stupid

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Quote:

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There are currently 7579 Caldari militia pilots and 4806 Gallente militia pilots. How bout the Caldari try undocking and forming some sort of organised fleet to do something about them...

If you don't like it, leave the militia.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Arkole Blake

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Want to know what they are doing?

Here ya go:

1 Onyx with 1 shield extender and passive resist mods. (Must be able to maintain high resist with 0 cap)
2 Basilisk with large remote shield reps,1 energy transfer and non militia pilots.

Send these three into the system and safe spot them,Basilisk Set reps on the Onyx and energy transfers on each other.
Wait for all currently spawned opposing faction npcs to aggress the Onyx.
Send in fast ships one at a time and let them get acquire the newly spawned npcs
Warp to the SS, wait for npcs to arrive, warp off. Npcs will now attack the onyx instead of giving chase.
Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.

Your fleet is now free to camp the gates and stations.

I'm sure I've gotten some of the details wrong, but those are the basics. I would strongly advise practicing it on the test server first to get it down. For a decently organized corp its quite simple, if you don't have a group of competent pilots that will listen and work together don't even bother trying you'll just die.

How do I know this is how they do it?
Check my employment history

Why am I posting it here?
That's not really your concern.


/me waves the finger to Fried on the way out.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Edited by: Ulstan on 03/07/2008 14:48:55

Originally by: Venkul Mul

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So yes increasing time to 1 minute is a bigger difference than paragoning 20 seconds to 0.

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No it's not, you dolt. Going from 50s to 1m is a 10s difference, and going from 20s to 0 is a 20s difference. Can you possibly fail this badly at basic math?

More importantly, there are orders of magnitude in difference between any delay, no matter how slight, and instant exploding. With a slight delay, you can always get enough ships and the right fits and the right coordination to blow up targets of opportunity. With an insta explosion, no matter how good you are, no matter how many ships you have, no matter what alpha you have, you can never kill anyone.

Tweaking the time delay by a few seconds this way and that is quite trivial compared to eliminating it entirely (which is what you suggested). Having you insta explode as soon as you entered hi sec space would be horrible - it would make your enemy militias perfectly safe from you. Giving you a delay of sufficient length before they showed up (30s, 1m, 2m, etc) would give you enough time to get in with a fast roaming gang, pew pew some afk hauler idiots who think they are safe in hi sec, and get out.

And you think this capability should be removed...why are the biggest whiners always the most clueless?

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Originally by: Akita T

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Avoidable or tankable ?
That for sure. But for a short while !
Not for LONGER than a couple of seconds, a minute or two tops.
Avoidable while sitting in a spot ? No way.
Perma-tankable ? No way either, well, at least not in 0.9 and 1.0 ! And even in 0.8, it should be damned hard to come close to a perma-tank.

The intended purpose of FW was to draw people to LOWSEC, not to enable gankfests in enemy highsec.
Hit-and-run tactics in enemy highsec are fine and dandy, as long as you can barely get a couple of shots and then be forced by the NPC assault to warp out or be destroyed in a matter of 20-50 seconds or so, depending on system sec rating and ship used.
If not, then the whole concept was pointless : what's there to draw you into lowsec, if you can easily raid the enemy highsec systems ; what's there to keep you in the FW, if you're not significantly safer in your own empire's highsec than in contested territory ; and so on and so forth.

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Quote:

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About the other things: have you read some of your fellows? "more ship spawning every 20 seconds". Yes, they want Concord and you aren't very far from that.

You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.

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Quote:

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quite trivial compared to eliminating it entirely (which is what you suggested)

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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Man, I feel like I'm in one of those religious discussions where you ask someone to prove something and they say their proof is "God told me".

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Quote:

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No, you are the one asking the prestidigitator "Show me how it is done so I can do it too".

He has no obligation to show you anything.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

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Originally by: Arkole Blake

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Want to know what they are doing?

Here ya go:

1 Onyx with 1 shield extender and passive resist mods. (Must be able to maintain high resist with 0 cap)
2 Basilisk with large remote shield reps,1 energy transfer and non militia pilots.

Send these three into the system and safe spot them,Basilisk Set reps on the Onyx and energy transfers on each other.
Wait for all currently spawned opposing faction npcs to aggress the Onyx.
Send in fast ships one at a time and let them get acquire the newly spawned npcs
Warp to the SS, wait for npcs to arrive, warp off. Npcs will now attack the onyx instead of giving chase.
Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.

Your fleet is now free to camp the gates and stations.

I'm sure I've gotten some of the details wrong, but those are the basics. I would strongly advise practicing it on the test server first to get it down. For a decently organized corp its quite simple, if you don't have a group of competent pilots that will listen and work together don't even bother trying you'll just die.

How do I know this is how they do it?
Check my employment history

Why am I posting it here?
That's not really your concern.


/me waves the finger to Fried on the way out.

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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Set up two gangs, one to engage and draw ships away from one group of fighters while the others work unhindered taking out war targets.

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Originally by: Friedrik Psitalon

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It's impressive how authoritatively and convincingly you sound while being wrong on nearly every point. Go ahead and try to run a raid into Oursulaert with this set of tactics.... just let me know when so I can bring popcorn and salvagers.

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Originally by: Arkole Blake

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Post confirming it is done exactly as Jmanis Cartharg described

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*

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Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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I'm in your screenshot!

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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It's great being a puppetmaster

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Originally by: Arkole Blake

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Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.

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Originally by: Rhanna Khurin

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They're not exploiting you fool. As has been said it's merely that the NPC Navy ships DO appear but often are bugged or lagged out or something and half the time dont even bother to attack.

Stop crying exploit as that implies that all those players are doing something purposely to cause this effect. Which they're not.

My guess is that lag glitches up the ships

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Originally by: ThrudUK

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However, there is a cap to the number of navy groups deployed in a system - no more than 10 spawns will appear in a given system.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Originally by: ThrudUK

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However, there is a cap to the number of navy groups deployed in a system - no more than 10 spawns will appear in a given system.

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And who the hell had this "bright" idea ?
He should be hit in the head repeatedly with a blunk instrument until he changes his mind.

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Originally by: Leviathan9

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Well, Navies are still bugged i think, i got killed in Niarja, by 2 ships, there was... i think 3-4 war targets in that system, why did i never in the ages i spent before decloaking from jumping, from getting attacked to warping my pod out, not see a single navy help me? Petitioned and got that stupid max 10 bs.

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Originally by: Arana Tellen

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So caldari millitia HOWS ABOUT SCANNING DOWN the bait ship and blowing it up? Then laughing as they all die?

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Originally by: "Empyrean Age 1.0.1-2 Server side change, released 10 July 2008"

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• An exploit concerning Faction Navy NPC's has been fixed, making EVE a better world to live in for us all.

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Originally by: Spurty

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All I need to know is A) its by design and B) I will not have my account F**Ked over by some jobs worth for parcipitation in this in the Gallente hub.

If its a bug, CCP jobs worth get to jita and make yourself busy thwapping that camp outside, otherwise, can the numb nutts that neglected to point out this can happen slam their knackers in the nearest door frame in silence after they have advertised this is a wanted thing.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun, in my experience.

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