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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.03 22:07:00 -
[151] - Quote
 Originally by: Arkole Blake
Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.
Hmm, that's just... ungh... stupid.
If that's true, you could as well send in 10 passively-tanked ships that can take care of their own spawns, safespot them randomly, then all the rest are free to do whatever they please.
Stupid, stupid, stupid 
_
SUPPORT or CRITICIZE the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
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00110000
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Posted - 2008.07.03 22:13:00 -
[152] - Quote
It certainly is fun watching all of the peoples theories on how this is being done
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.07.03 22:13:00 -
[153] - Quote
Originally by: Akita T
In the search of ways to find out how one group of players "broke" the system, it appears Le Skunk has found several other ways of breaking the system 
Good job, man !
Now, if only CCP would stop playing the "yhh, umm, err, nono, it's really working as intended" card now and get their asses in gear and change the NPCs accordingly (so, you know, they actually do what they're supposed to do, meaning obligate enemy militia to warp off fairly frequently)... now that would be just peachy.
Thanks :) I was hindered by testing it solo so not knowing how a 2nd mans militia spawn would react to a left item (drone) or indeed as another poster suggests is the answer (an onyx).
I was trying to work out some way to get a sneaky suicide gank in with le skunk tbh. There is scope there for a well organized -10 pirate gang to be suiciding some freighters with this if they do aggro another mans dumped drones.
You could get a nice big 200 hobgoblin drop at a ss if you did it right. Then your gang could warp to the drop, wait for npc spawn, warp to the gate, and have three of four mins unmolested on a gate to close in on that afk freighter. Bang - suicide gank in high sec by -10 pirates. Carebears take to the forums. Le skunk demands 10% cut.
SKUNK
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.07.03 22:20:00 -
[154] - Quote
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Arkole Blake
Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.
Hmm, that's just... ungh... stupid.
If that's true, you could as well send in 10 passively-tanked ships that can take care of their own spawns, safespot them randomly, then all the rest are free to do whatever they please.
Stupid, stupid, stupid
Well the non militia repping sounds pretty feasible - as they would not warrent their own spawn of navy. You dont even appear to get a standing drop with the amarr faction - just the navy corporation.
I dont know about the 10 spawns max thing as I cannot test it, but even if it is shite - you dont need 10 guys to gank the station at jita, and there are many non milita alts in bleicose you can use.
SKUNK
SKUNK
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Metlec
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Posted - 2008.07.03 23:14:00 -
[155] - Quote
There are currently 7579 Caldari militia pilots and 4806 Gallente militia pilots. How bout the Caldari try undocking and forming some sort of organised fleet to do something about them...
If you don't like it, leave the militia.
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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.03 23:15:00 -
[156] - Quote
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 03/07/2008 23:18:33
Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
...
So what's that mean?
The poor mans version of this tactic is to spawn a bunch of drones somewhere and have the navy engage them. My guess (guess only because I haven't tested this) is to get someone else to get the aggro instead of one of your drones. ...
It's impressive how authoritatively and convincingly you sound while being wrong on nearly every point....
Originally by: Arkole Blake
Post about how you draw the NPC aggro aggro onto someone else
All that's left for me to do now is lol at the denial.
Oh, and this:
Quote:
Hmm, that's just... ungh... stupid.
If that's true, you could as well send in 10 passively-tanked ships that can take care of their own spawns, safespot them randomly, then all the rest are free to do whatever they please.
Stupid, stupid, stupid
Precisely what I've said all along. It's not an exploit but it's stupid, broken logic.
Quote:
There are currently 7579 Caldari militia pilots and 4806 Gallente militia pilots. How bout the Caldari try undocking and forming some sort of organised fleet to do something about them...
If you don't like it, leave the militia.
Sorry, I'm in low-sec, so it's actually not a drama for me.
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.03 23:29:00 -
[157] - Quote
Originally by: Arkole Blake
Want to know what they are doing?
Here ya go:
1 Onyx with 1 shield extender and passive resist mods. (Must be able to maintain high resist with 0 cap)
2 Basilisk with large remote shield reps,1 energy transfer and non militia pilots.
Send these three into the system and safe spot them,Basilisk Set reps on the Onyx and energy transfers on each other.
Wait for all currently spawned opposing faction npcs to aggress the Onyx.
Send in fast ships one at a time and let them get acquire the newly spawned npcs
Warp to the SS, wait for npcs to arrive, warp off. Npcs will now attack the onyx instead of giving chase.
Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.
Your fleet is now free to camp the gates and stations.
I'm sure I've gotten some of the details wrong, but those are the basics. I would strongly advise practicing it on the test server first to get it down. For a decently organized corp its quite simple, if you don't have a group of competent pilots that will listen and work together don't even bother trying you'll just die.
How do I know this is how they do it?
Check my employment history
Why am I posting it here?
That's not really your concern.
/me waves the finger to Fried on the way out.
way to kick the idea into the next level. using a tanked ship rather than destroyable drones, hax!!!!
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.04 00:19:00 -
[158] - Quote
Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 03/07/2008 14:48:55
Originally by: Venkul Mul
So yes increasing time to 1 minute is a bigger difference than paragoning 20 seconds to 0.
No it's not, you dolt. Going from 50s to 1m is a 10s difference, and going from 20s to 0 is a 20s difference. Can you possibly fail this badly at basic math?
More importantly, there are orders of magnitude in difference between any delay, no matter how slight, and instant exploding. With a slight delay, you can always get enough ships and the right fits and the right coordination to blow up targets of opportunity. With an insta explosion, no matter how good you are, no matter how many ships you have, no matter what alpha you have, you can never kill anyone.
Tweaking the time delay by a few seconds this way and that is quite trivial compared to eliminating it entirely (which is what you suggested). Having you insta explode as soon as you entered hi sec space would be horrible - it would make your enemy militias perfectly safe from you. Giving you a delay of sufficient length before they showed up (30s, 1m, 2m, etc) would give you enough time to get in with a fast roaming gang, pew pew some afk hauler idiots who think they are safe in hi sec, and get out.
And you think this capability should be removed...why are the biggest whiners always the most clueless?
I see that
1) you haven't got my initial post, that was about 20-50 seconds (remember the 20, even if you always speak of the 50) being too short and and equivalent to no time.
2) 20 second less 10 seconds to load a full grid (Jita, remember, 10 seconds it a wonderful time to load the grid there), less 5 seconds to lock the target mean 5 seconds of combat at best. Increase that by 10 second and the difference is important.
Alternate example: always Jita remember. Loading the grid probably will take 30 or more seconds, plus the usual 5 to lock a target. Going to 50 seconds there are 15 seconds of combat. Add 10 seconds to 60 and they become 25, a time sufficient to kill someting a bit harder if you are in group. Or to lock a frigate and kill it.
My original reply was about this:
Originally by: Akita T
Avoidable or tankable ?
That for sure. But for a short while !
Not for LONGER than a couple of seconds, a minute or two tops.
Avoidable while sitting in a spot ? No way.
Perma-tankable ? No way either, well, at least not in 0.9 and 1.0 ! And even in 0.8, it should be damned hard to come close to a perma-tank.
The intended purpose of FW was to draw people to LOWSEC, not to enable gankfests in enemy highsec.
Hit-and-run tactics in enemy highsec are fine and dandy, as long as you can barely get a couple of shots and then be forced by the NPC assault to warp out or be destroyed in a matter of 20-50 seconds or so, depending on system sec rating and ship used.
If not, then the whole concept was pointless : what's there to draw you into lowsec, if you can easily raid the enemy highsec systems ; what's there to keep you in the FW, if you're not significantly safer in your own empire's highsec than in contested territory ; and so on and so forth.
and my comment was:
Quote:
About the other things: have you read some of your fellows? "more ship spawning every 20 seconds". Yes, they want Concord and you aren't very far from that.
You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.
So where the heck, beside your inability to read, you have got the impression I was sugessting insta destruction as a good thing as you say?
Quote:
quite trivial compared to eliminating it entirely (which is what you suggested)
Try read a whole post before replying.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.04 00:21:00 -
[159] - Quote
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Man, I feel like I'm in one of those religious discussions where you ask someone to prove something and they say their proof is "God told me".
No, you are the one asking the prestidigitator "Show me how it is done so I can do it too".
He has no obligation to show you anything.
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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.04 00:32:00 -
[160] - Quote
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 04/07/2008 00:39:49
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 04/07/2008 00:33:38
Quote:
No, you are the one asking the prestidigitator "Show me how it is done so I can do it too".
He has no obligation to show you anything.
You assume I asked how it was done 'So I can do it too'. I wanted to be shown how it was done so that I could be proven wrong. He's not obliged to show me anything true, but he's got no ability to prove I'm wrong if he's not going to show anything for it. Claims were made denying the circumstances I proved with evidence without any counter-evidence.
The one replying to me simply put themselves in a "damned if they do" (their secret is revealed) or "damned if they don't" (they can't disprove what I'm saying).
However, I wasn't wrong, so that whole argument is both moot and off-topic.
---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
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Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.04 02:22:00 -
[161] - Quote
Originally by: Arkole Blake
Want to know what they are doing?
Here ya go:
1 Onyx with 1 shield extender and passive resist mods. (Must be able to maintain high resist with 0 cap)
2 Basilisk with large remote shield reps,1 energy transfer and non militia pilots.
Send these three into the system and safe spot them,Basilisk Set reps on the Onyx and energy transfers on each other.
Wait for all currently spawned opposing faction npcs to aggress the Onyx.
Send in fast ships one at a time and let them get acquire the newly spawned npcs
Warp to the SS, wait for npcs to arrive, warp off. Npcs will now attack the onyx instead of giving chase.
Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.
Your fleet is now free to camp the gates and stations.
I'm sure I've gotten some of the details wrong, but those are the basics. I would strongly advise practicing it on the test server first to get it down. For a decently organized corp its quite simple, if you don't have a group of competent pilots that will listen and work together don't even bother trying you'll just die.
How do I know this is how they do it?
Check my employment history
Why am I posting it here?
That's not really your concern.
/me waves the finger to Fried on the way out.
Well, that's pretty much exactly what I suspected, minus the neutral pilots.
I don't think there is any real way to claim this is working as intended, as it relies on a flaw in the coding in at least two particulars. (Faction navies not aggressing people repping their enemies, and them breaking the faction navy spawn so no more show up)
That they insisted everything was working as intended is revealing, though not surprising. Additionally, I think most people would expect a properly functioning faction navy not to leave any group of enemy pilots alone for 20 minutes at a time, though I realize this part is open to different interpretations.
Hopefully CCP will strike a balance between people sitting unmolested by the navy for 20 minutes, and people being unable to launch hit and run raids through their opponents hi sec. It is important that you be able to pose a threat to enemy militia even while they are in their hi sec.
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Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.04 02:28:00 -
[162] - Quote
Also, man, the dead parrot guys look like complete morons with their denials here.
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Set up two gangs, one to engage and draw ships away from one group of fighters while the others work unhindered taking out war targets.
Originally by: Friedrik Psitalon
It's impressive how authoritatively and convincingly you sound while being wrong on nearly every point. Go ahead and try to run a raid into Oursulaert with this set of tactics.... just let me know when so I can bring popcorn and salvagers.
Originally by: Arkole Blake
Post confirming it is done exactly as Jmanis Cartharg described
Jamnis Catharg: 1
Friedrik Psitalon: 0
Also, Le Skunk is a godly sleuther.  Excellent job and finding other potential tactics.
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Venec
Rave Technologies Inc.
C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.07.04 08:10:00 -
[163] - Quote
More ink, please - I'm running short.
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Arana Tellen
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.04 08:27:00 -
[164] - Quote
So caldari millitia HOWS ABOUT SCANNING DOWN the bait ship and blowing it up? Then laughing as they all die?
---------------------------------
Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.04 08:31:00 -
[165] - Quote
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
 I'm in your screenshot!
ME TOO ME TOO!!!
I'm ashamed really 
------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
It's great being a puppetmaster 
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.04 09:55:00 -
[166] - Quote
Get a fast nano ship (6000+) that can perma run its MWD. Jump the fleet into system and warp to a planet or belt and wait for the navy. When it arrives all the fleet but the nano leave. If you do it right the navy will be following that nano forever leaving you free to go on the rampage.
Havent tested this myself but its probably what is goin on.
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FlameGlow
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.04 10:14:00 -
[167] - Quote
Soooo, just 10 sets of navy per system, they can be tricked into switching target, and they are not attacking neutral helpers is what now called "works as intended"? Way to go CCP!
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.04 11:54:00 -
[168] - Quote
Originally by: Arkole Blake
Do this until you have 10 sets of npcs attacking the tank then send in your fleet, no more npcs will spawn.
If this is exact, all the rest is fluff.
You only need to jump in 10 ships with ultra heavy tank, wait for navy spawn and aggro, then jump remote reppers and cap transfer ships for the tankers and the rest of the fleet is free of doing anything they want.
All the other (possible) manoeuvres are icing to use less resource to keep the tankers alive, but they are not required. Warping to a bookmark in the system is convenient as it will hinder militia reaction more (they should scan for the ships and in a busy system it is a pain) but not necessary.
If that is true and CCP has hard coded a maximum of 10 Faction navy spawns in a system (or a number variable with the security of the system) it is effectively working as intended (i.e. Faction navy operating with limited resources). And it is an intended mechanic that the militia is needed to help repelling large invasions in high sec.
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Chris Sharp
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Posted - 2008.07.04 12:10:00 -
[169] - Quote
I dont see the problem, as long as the Milita fights Navy + Militia and not those who didn't sign up. On the other hand, maybe things like this should happen. After all: its war and those "civilians" are supplying the enemy.
And the correct response to an enemy fleet would be to grab a bunch of comrades and get them and save the inhabitants of the systems from the vicous, transparent plasic wearing intruders!
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Jones Maloy
Minmatar
Revival.
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Posted - 2008.07.04 13:26:00 -
[170] - Quote
nano out ishtar. cerb and hugnin pop out a warrior II and asign it to ishtar. ishtar mwds with 12 navy ships chasing it. ishtar keeps navy frigates within 90 km so the navy doesn't warp on top of it. cerb and hugnin camp gate free from harm.
did i get it right?
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Napro
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.05 09:42:00 -
[171] - Quote
Originally by: Rhanna Khurin
They're not exploiting you fool. As has been said it's merely that the NPC Navy ships DO appear but often are bugged or lagged out or something and half the time dont even bother to attack.
Stop crying exploit as that implies that all those players are doing something purposely to cause this effect. Which they're not.
My guess is that lag glitches up the ships
Wow
Taking advantage of a bug to pour a fleet into high-sec is a very precise example of "exploit"
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ThrudUK
Caldari
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2008.07.05 11:56:00 -
[172] - Quote
tl;dr (it all)
However, there is a cap to the number of navy groups deployed in a system - no more than 10 spawns will appear in a given system. It's possible that the navies are dealing with another group of FW flagged militia in the same system. In that case, no navy will come to your rescue.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.05 15:40:00 -
[173] - Quote
Originally by: ThrudUK
However, there is a cap to the number of navy groups deployed in a system - no more than 10 spawns will appear in a given system.
And who the hell had this "bright" idea ?
He should be hit in the head repeatedly with a blunk instrument until he changes his mind.
_
SUPPORT or CRITICIZE the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
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Faife
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.07 03:57:00 -
[174] - Quote
nerf tanking tbh.
it's absolutely not fair that the gallente can tank enemy ships.
- -
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Sacrificial Lamb
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.07 13:10:00 -
[175] - Quote
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: ThrudUK
However, there is a cap to the number of navy groups deployed in a system - no more than 10 spawns will appear in a given system.
And who the hell had this "bright" idea ?
He should be hit in the head repeatedly with a blunk instrument until he changes his mind.
Fairly sure it was CCP LagMonster
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Leviathan9
Gallente
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.07.07 14:27:00 -
[176] - Quote
Well, Navies are still bugged i think, i got killed in Niarja, by 2 ships, there was... i think 3-4 war targets in that system, why did i never in the ages i spent before decloaking from jumping, from getting attacked to warping my pod out, not see a single navy help me? Petitioned and got that stupid max 10 bs.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.07.07 16:29:00 -
[177] - Quote
Originally by: Leviathan9
Well, Navies are still bugged i think, i got killed in Niarja, by 2 ships, there was... i think 3-4 war targets in that system, why did i never in the ages i spent before decloaking from jumping, from getting attacked to warping my pod out, not see a single navy help me? Petitioned and got that stupid max 10 bs.
Silly you - you didnt have your pvp flag turned off
/pvp - off
SKUNK
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Fforia
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Posted - 2008.07.09 12:25:00 -
[178] - Quote
Me and my guys (not telling you who or whom) we have been doing strikes behind enemy lines since the FW started.
1. have a scout find a nice mining gang.
2. 2 to 5 pilots jump up to 10 systems from safe system.
3. Pop the miners who never watch local is sweet.
and yes the navy comes to there aid but you have about 60sec to kill and get out in a 1.0 system longer in lower sec systems. T2 ships die quick :) our best results have been with BC's
So fellow Caldari pilots get the raiding gangs going no need for large gangs we mainly do it with 2 to 5 pilots for best results
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Kamikazi TWO
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:42:00 -
[179] - Quote
Originally by: Arana Tellen
So caldari millitia HOWS ABOUT SCANNING DOWN the bait ship and blowing it up? Then laughing as they all die?
Better still, if CCP have hard coded a max of 10 Navy fleets per system why not just have them showing up as a beacon in the same way a complex or cyno does ? The local militia could then fly in and do the job they signed up for.
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MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:15:00 -
[180] - Quote
Do you suppose this had anything to do with the FW mechanics discussed in this thread?
Originally by: "Empyrean Age 1.0.1-2 Server side change, released 10 July 2008"
- An exploit concerning Faction Navy NPC's has been fixed, making EVE a better world to live in for us all.
See patchnotes here
MDD
Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching |
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