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Author	Reply to Topic \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:27:00 - [91] - Quote Whining to get concord like protection in faction warfare is pretty funny. If anything NPCs should be weaker, to allow more highsec engagements. The side in their home space should gain an advantage, but not a huge one.
Market AltLOLOLOLO	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:41:00 - [92] - Quote Issue is NOT about death etc. Issue is about the 2-3 compleatly dubious methods used. The only legal method is shooting under NPC fire or before NPC turn up. You can prevent Navy from ever turning up. Another method is to stop navy every targeting you, which is exactly the same as the old Concord not firing bug from a while back Undock = Pvp. However, If concord did not work, something is wrong. POS bowling was legal one day, changed the next when people relised something was wrong. So the real question is, what typs of tactics are allowed? 1. Buffer tanked gank squads - Allowed and perfect for high sec ganking enemy navy. They can tank NPC's for a long time. 2. Tricking Navy to be stuck in wrong grid, thus never warping in - Yes, you can guess how to do this. Its pretty shabby tbh. Is this a exploit? Or is it allowed? 3. Navy never targeting - Seems to be a bug? But permajaming or superdamping navy is possible, but they forget targets quite often and that is a problem. 1 Falcon can in theory take care of infinite navy ships. Allowed or bugged or both? 4. Outrunning Navy - Allowed and a good tactic. Navy are chasing you so you are on the run. I can go on. Real question is which tactics are legit and which are not.
Cyno Sid	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:55:00 - [93] - Quote Instead of throwing wild accusations about can we think this one out and base it on facts. Read what those who know what they are doing say, there are clues but I haven't yet put the jigsaw together myself. Here's what I know, based on facts - hopefully others can fill the gaps in. Is this done with cloaks - No you can't cloak in another FW space. How do I know - I tried it. Is it done by zipping around the system staying on step ahead of the spawns and relying on Alpha Strikes. Highly unlikely. I've ran through alot of enemy highsec and response times are about 10 seconds for the spawns. Hardly enough time to get in with BS's, lock and take down targets and then get out without the spawn actually showing up - furthermore, was anyone actually in Jita when this was happening who can actually comment on it (not heard it from a friend but saw it) I wasn't in Jita but I was in another system when I saw this and there was definetly no spawns chasng them as they sat at the gate and nothing turned up for them (did for us though) - So no, I don't belive they are out running the spawns. Are the spwns broke - no, definetly not. If you don't belive me take a ship in enemy FW space and sit on the gate. Did they split the spwns and tank them somewhere else. Possible, but we tried this and we couldn't split them. My spawn stuck with me and my Corp mates stuck with them. Did they tank them another way. I doubt it - In my Corp we all have logistics five. We took one BS into a 0.8 with three logistics and tried to tank the spawns - we died. Perhapes they were using the legendary high sec carriers - doesn't make sense as firstly they almost certainly don't have access to one of these and if they did the spawns would still show and stick with their own ships etc etc Perhapes they managed to outrun the FW - Nope, if u get 150k away they respwn on top of you. Perhapes it has something to do with crossing grid lines. Possible, tried this, thought I got it to work but then couldn't do it again. Anyway playing with grids could be argued as an exploit and CCP seem happy enought with it. So how they doing it - I haven't a clue but I'm working on it. So lets talk facts and figure it out
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:56:00 - [94] - Quote Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO So the real question is, what typs of tactics are allowed? 1. Buffer tanked gank squads - Allowed and perfect for high sec ganking enemy navy. They can tank NPC's for a long time. 2. Tricking Navy to be stuck in wrong grid, thus never warping in - Yes, you can guess how to do this. Its pretty shabby tbh. Is this a exploit? Or is it allowed? 3. Navy never targeting - Seems to be a bug? But permajaming or superdamping navy is possible, but they forget targets quite often and that is a problem. 1 Falcon can in theory take care of infinite navy ships. Allowed or bugged or both? 4. Outrunning Navy - Allowed and a good tactic. Navy are chasing you so you are on the run. 2 and 3 no, should get fixed ASAP - they shouldn't get stuck anywhere and they should retarget when jam cycles stop. 1 and 4 yes, perfectly fine. Add to the "just fine" list 5. Remote tanking/captransfer combined with constant warping of repairers while the damage-dealers hold still And add to the "borderline fine" list 6. Using neutral remote repair and cap transfer alts - as long as you AT LEAST make sure they flash red to the enemy militias (ideally they should get a navy spawn too, then it would be just fine too) And to the "not fine" list add 7. Using capital ships that remained in "enemy highsec" - they should get a capital response special spawn, the very least, if not directly forbid their use in FW at all (GM-move them out of highsec if they undock in enemy space while engaged in FW) It's pretty much just common sense, IMO. _ EXPRESS SUPPORT for the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
00110000	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:00:00 - [95] - Quote Well Sid, Your post, is the first rational approach I've seen thus far, and in saying that.. ALL Caldari should listen up..ANYONE can do this! 07 Sid
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:01:00 - [96] - Quote it wont get fixed because a dev is in on it. Its the next bob hack
Jmanis Catharg Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:05:00 - [97] - Quote From the Dev Blog Quote: The Navies have finally twigged that two frigates and a cruiser aren't really a significant threat these days, so they've upgraded their rapid response teams. Considerably. They won't scramble, but if you hang around expect to get hurt. (Sentry guns, CONCORD, Customs and Police will all leave you alone though, provided you don't do anything to antagonize them). Bolded the important bit. People from opposing factions are hanging around and not getting hurt. My test kestrel got insta-popped by a faction BS, so I imagine the falcon, claw, hawk and all those assault frigates wouldn't last long under fire from their respective factional navy spawns. But maybe this is all just a wording issue. If it's not a wording issue, I'd like to see how anyone can equate sitting in a hostile system without taking any damage, much less a lock at "hanging round and getting hurt". If it is a wording issue, then what is it? If you hang around solo expect to get hurt, if you come as a gang you'll have to wait till they catch your mate? And I don't care if it's 'revealing your tactics', if you're not providing solid fact to show you're not doing anything untoward then gtfo to be honest, because that dev blog pretty much reads to me that if you're not having to personally dodge npcs or tank some damage (and mounting all that NPC response onto one character, if possible, is not personally), then something untoward is going on. If all you guys are tanking/spider tanking spawns, destroying spawns, speedtanking spawns, permajamming spawns, fine. Keep it up. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that all those different ships in that picture could each be tanking a 2 BS, 2 Frig and 2 Cruiser spawn you get in Jita (iirc). On an aside too, I've considered the neutral-remote-repper idea, but I don't want to do that because it's pretty lame, and I'd hope the game mechanics wouldn't allow it without repercussions (though i imagine it does allow it) --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Kery Syander The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:11:00 - [98] - Quote Yeah, I'm gonna join the lulz of people getting upset about signing up for factional warfare and then being upset when they die in highsec. What exactly from CCP made you think that this would be IMPOSSIBLE? Also, to all the people foaming blindly about how CCP has said this isn't an exploit... well CCP also called POS bowling and BACON not exploits at one time or another. -----
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:12:00 - [99] - Quote Originally by: Kery Syander Yeah, I'm gonna join the lulz of people getting upset about signing up for factional warfare and then being upset when they die in highsec. What exactly from CCP made you think that this would be IMPOSSIBLE? Also, to all the people foaming blindly about how CCP has said this isn't an exploit... well CCP also called POS bowling and BACON not exploits at one time or another. i think its a developer tipping things into a faction's favor, the next bob thing. if im wrong i apologize.
Cyno Sid	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:29:00 - [100] - Quote Edited by: Cyno Sid on 03/07/2008 00:34:28 Edited by: Cyno Sid on 03/07/2008 00:31:11 I'm not saying this is an exploit or it isn't. Until I know how they are doing it I can't comment or should the masses - after all, how many new players have shouted hax when u uncloked a ship next to them and blew them out the sky. Just because you don't know how to do it doesn't mean its an exploit. I'm also not saying if its right or wrong. It brings a new dimesion to FW which may be good or it may be bad. Once we've figured out how they are doing it then we can see if it can be couterattacted (not sure if thats a word but its late and it do) Some more things I know - its not about docking and undocking - spawns still there when u come out. It's not about jumping out of your ship, switching ships, logging off etc. Tried all those. Neutral repping - again highly unlikely. We couldn't tank one BS with 3 logistics so how can you possibly tank 20 ships - with a fleet of 60 logistics !!! don't think so but might be wrong (plus I saw the guy on the gate and he didn't need to tank anything so its not about neutral tanking) So come on, lets figure it out togther and then comment upon it. There's no point second guessing hows it done and then giving solutions when you don't actually know what they are doing. Likewise, there's no point judging them again until we have figured it out. Yes its not what I expected, yes, it seems unfair especially when I can't do it but if they can figure it out so can we.

Urtok Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:35:00 - [101] - Quote to add to the discussions:... today in Niarja there was a minmatar militia corp gate camping the two gates into caldari and amarr space. Niarja is an Amarr sov 0.5 system. So far so good.... now the odd part. In an Anathama cloaked at the mad gate I watched them operate for a while. Huginn sitting on the gate at 0km, rest of fleet at various distance warping in and out. 8 Saram Navy ships 10km out from the gate and not attacking the Huginn. Huginn never warped or moved. Seemed odd so petitioned it. Later the Caldari Militia formed a small fleet to respond (Caldari protecting our trade route to Amarr markets for the Amarr in Amarr sov space). We tangled with them off the gate and Saram Navy response was normal and expected they came and they shot at the WTs. Later reports found out they chased one WT in a cerb to a SS and destroyed the cerb. Confirmed because I say the pilot leave the system in a pod while his friends left in their ships so they were not leaving them in the system. Every thing about the engagement was normal and as expected EXCEPT for the beginning where the Huginn sitting at the gate and not being agressed by the Saram Navy. Reports about the Jita incident had HACs/T2 cruisers sitting at the gates and the rest of the fleet warping to the gate sitters using fleetwarps. The gate sitters were also reported as not being agressed by the Caladri Navy. The lone gate sitter I observed were not moving so no speedtanking eventhough the Huginn was a nano. No spider tanking, he was alone. Just sitting at the gate at 0km not a care in the world even thought 8 faction navy was just 10km distance. Please explain to me how a lone stationary War Target can do this and it be considered "working as intended"? WoW killer. No, not a joke...really...why won't you belive me!!!!
00110000	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:45:00 - [102] - Quote I just saw a report where Jita was on the "Most Dangerous Systems" list. :)
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:45:00 - [103] - Quote Originally by: 00110000 I just saw a report where Jita was on the "Most Dangerous Systems" list. :) yes it marks a turning point.... the day gallente terrorists threaten the peaceful and prosperous systen if jita.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:02:00 - [104] - Quote Quote: Please explain to me how a lone stationary War Target can do this and it be considered "working as intended"? This, combined with the devblog I quoted. This is not "working as intended", and saying it's fine because we (the Caldari Militia) can do it too is just smokescreening an actual issue with the system. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Lord Blandness	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:23:00 - [105] - Quote Please come do it again, I want to see what you guys are doing, so far I have only heard speculation and heresay.
Galyrion Prison Break Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:37:00 - [106] - Quote Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space.
Lord Blandness	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:52:00 - [107] - Quote Originally by: Galyrion Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space. Could you elaborate? Because people are saying you sat on the gate for 20 mins w/o being shot at. Are they telling the truth, or were they missing something? Did you out-fly the navy, or use a trick of some sort? I'm not judging you guys, I am just curious.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:55:00 - [108] - Quote Quote: They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space. I don't claim that it was meant to make it war-free. How I imagined it to work tbh was along the lines of this: 0.5: You can take a properly kitted frigate and upwards and stand a chance vs navy spawns. If you took in a BS you'd be stomping any NPC spawns. 0.6: A pimped frigate or dessie might stand a chance, cruisers and BS are the go for safety sake. 0.7: You'll want nothing smaller than a battlecruiser or some decent T2 to venture in. Anything else is asking for either an instapop (frigates) or every minute your alive is pretty lucky (cruisers). 0.8: You could take a pretty decked out BS or uber-tanked BC in, but all it'd take would be one opposing faction pilot to ruin your day. 0.9: You want to be in a gang with some nifty spider-tanking tactics and logistics with big DPS and tanking. You won't be lasting long if you're not damn good. 1.0: Nigh on impenetrable. Jita is what, 0.7, 0.8? I forget, but if you read that, that'd still allow what the Gallente Militia are doing now to occur, it'd just make it a lot harder. Yeah the navy NPC's aren't the next concord, but they're supposed to put up a fight. But all that sec-level related stuff is theorycrafting anyway, and not the actual game mechanics. My point is if you're sitting on the gate for a reasonable amount of time without taking damage, that's quite different to CCP's claims of "If you hang around expect to get hurt". Quote: And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space. And I'll bet you're right. But plenty of people have seen the navy ignoring WT's too. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Lord Blandness	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:59:00 - [109] - Quote Jita is .9
Galyrion Prison Break Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.03 02:02:00 - [110] - Quote Originally by: Lord Blandness Originally by: Galyrion Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space. Could you elaborate? Because people are saying you sat on the gate for 20 mins w/o being shot at. Are they telling the truth, or were they missing something? Did you out-fly the navy, or use a trick of some sort? I'm not judging you guys, I am just curious. The navy was shooting for the entire time we were present in the system with the same mechanics used in jita at a larger scale

Jmanis Catharg Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 02:03:00 - [111] - Quote Quote: The navy was shooting for the entire time we were present in the system with the same mechanics used in jita at a larger scale Shooting at what? --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Urtok Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 02:14:00 - [112] - Quote interesting turn of phrase "using the same machanics"...are you saying you were using the machanics in a way others were not? or do you mean you were experiencing the game as built and intended by CCP and not taking advantage of any glitch of the system? WoW killer. No, not a joke...really...why won't you belive me!!!!
Lord Blandness	Posted - 2008.07.03 02:14:00 - [113] - Quote Originally by: Galyrion Originally by: Lord Blandness Originally by: Galyrion Being a part of the mentioned gang in amarr space I find it funny how people keep forgetting one thing. They signed up for war so what do they expect? This feature was not implemented to make highsec space a "warfree zone". I have had my fair share of hatemails the last few days from people apparently not knowing they are at war. And to answer a few, I have never seen navy not spawning in highsec hostile space. Could you elaborate? Because people are saying you sat on the gate for 20 mins w/o being shot at. Are they telling the truth, or were they missing something? Did you out-fly the navy, or use a trick of some sort? I'm not judging you guys, I am just curious. The navy was shooting for the entire time we were present in the system with the same mechanics used in jita at a larger scale Interesting, so they were shooting each member of your gang, and presumably nos'ing each member, and yet you (Prison Break Inc) and The Dead Parrot Shoppe have found a way to tank them. All I gotta say is hats off to those two corps for figuring out this riddle, nice job gents.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 02:42:00 - [114] - Quote Edited by: Ulstan on 03/07/2008 02:44:11 Quote: now the odd part. In an Anathama cloaked at the mad gate I watched them operate for a while. Huginn sitting on the gate at 0km, rest of fleet at various distance warping in and out. 8 Saram Navy ships 10km out from the gate and not attacking the Huginn. Huginn never warped or moved. Seemed odd so petitioned it. And stuff like this is pretty clearly not working as intended. If it was deliberate on the Huginn's part, it would be an exploit. Petitioning it is the right response. The defense so far seems to be "Most of our fleet can sit around just fine without interference or worry about the NPC navy, but since someone somewhere is being chased by them, it's working as intended" This seems a rather dubious line of defense to me.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 02:46:00 - [115] - Quote Quote: Interesting, so they were shooting each member of your gang, and presumably nos'ing each member, and yet you (Prison Break Inc) and The Dead Parrot Shoppe have found a way to tank them. All I gotta say is hats off to those two corps for figuring out this riddle, nice job gents. You assume they were shooting at each member of the gang, which is why I asked "Shooting at what?". Because now my suspicions are aroused that you warp somewhere, engage the navy with drones, release control of them then warp off, leaving the navy spawn combating the drones for a few minutes giving you free reign to do whatever. Once again,, tactics? Maybe. Stupid? Yes. If I was fighting someone, I wouldn't hang round fighting their drones if they ran away, I'd chase them. PS. If you're wondering why I'm speculating and not saying "I did this and this happened" it's because I don't have access to a client atm. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.07.03 03:05:00 - [116] - Quote Edited by: Le Skunk on 03/07/2008 03:09:21 Well my alt lost a few ships in the process, but think Ive got this one working in some form The clues in the original picture SKUNK EDIT: If its what I did - its also not an exploit.
Lord Blandness	Posted - 2008.07.03 03:16:00 - [117] - Quote Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 03/07/2008 03:09:21 Well my alt lost a few ships in the process, but think Ive got this one working in some form The clues in the original picture SKUNK EDIT: If its what I did - its also not an exploit. We already knew it wasn't an exploit from Wranglers post, I just want to know what they are doing, so spill the beans Skunk.
Corduroy Rab Xenocidal Uprising	Posted - 2008.07.03 04:35:00 - [118] - Quote Ok so looking at the image the OP posted the majority of those ships can get up to a decent speed if fit for it. I do not know how fast the faction navy moves, but could it be that they are warping to a far off on grid bm then mwding down to position? Depending on how fast faction ships can move it could take them a while to catch up.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.03 06:01:00 - [119] - Quote Originally by: Ulstan Quote: I love people that do this kind of game with numbers. 20-50 seconds is almost a minute, with a minute people can klll afk haulers. Have you noticed that you have multiplied the time between x3 and x1,2? I you seriously going to argue that my rounding 50s up to a minute is more egregious than your rounding it down to 0s and claiming it's exactly the same as instant exploding? Seeing as there are some fixed delay, I say that 20 second is not different from 0. Warp in, load the grid, select target of opportunity (if there is one), lock target (no gangmates assisting you, so only your ship speed and locking bonus), start firing, warp away. What you can really do? Firing 2 gun volley against a hauler? Doing 0 damage with a missile ship as it will start warp before the missiles hit? Launch drones that will then be abandoned while you warp away? A total of 20-50 seconds between warp in and warp out mean that missiles and drones are useless. Guns even in the best hypothesis will fire very few volley (and you need a non combatant alt to know what is the target to select so that it is possible to concentrate fire and maybe destroy something). Practically the only target that can conceivably be locked and destroyed in that timeframe (as you will almost certainly need to use BC to survive the full 50 seconds) is a T1 hauler or a barge/exumer. Frigates would be easier to destroy but the locking time would allow it only if you are using a ship pimped for fast lock, so gimping your tank for the shield tanking races. On the other hand pimping an armor tanked ship for tank will increase warping time and so reduce time on target. adding between 40 and 10 seconds to that time add several volleys, as the fixed delays will be at the start of the on site time. So yes increasing time to 1 minute is a bigger difference than paragoning 20 seconds to 0.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.03 06:11:00 - [120] - Quote Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/07/2008 06:12:43 Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO Issue is about the 2-3 compleatly dubious methods used. The only legal method is shooting under NPC fire or before NPC turn up. Curious, Wrangler say that the method used is legit. Are you a higher up in CCP overruling his statement? Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO You can prevent Navy from ever turning up. Another method is to stop navy every targeting you, which is exactly the same as the old Concord not firing bug from a while back At the end of the day you don't know what method was used in Jita, but apparently it is none of those as it has deemed "not an exploit". Curious how you have missed that post with ble bars.

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