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Bhaal
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.02 16:22:00 -
[61] - Quote
 Quote:
What's described in the Minmatar thread, to someone not familiar with the tactic, would look exactly the same as what we did. I strongly suspect that - like in our case in Jita - people with not enough information for a valid analysis are making sweeping conclusions that project failure on someone else, rather than on their own lack of understanding.
Even without intimate knowledge, it smells of a game mechanic with unintended consequences, even though not an exploit, not by design either.
Of course, a lot of EVE works that way. That's because the DEV's are not very good at thinking things through b4 they implement them.
Good job on finding another "trick"
Some people have no problem playing a game with a loophole, like in so many sports games when you figure out how to score every time and you can beat the computer 1 billion to zero. Some kids don't like to use the trick because it's lame, some use it all the time because it's easy to win with it...
As long as you're having fun, and CCP is ok with it, have at it I guess 
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Current Hobby other than EVE |
Doc Fury
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Posted - 2008.07.02 16:27:00 -
[62] - Quote
POS bowling was not an exploit either until CCP decided later that it was. This all sounds like some of the same "unintended consequences."
Strap on the gear Caldari peeps, and just go do this to the Gallente in Oursulaert.
It's so safe to play along, little soldiers in a row
Falling in and out of love, with something sweet to throw away.
I want something good to DIE for...to make it beautiful to live. |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.02 17:07:00 -
[63] - Quote
Something must have gone wrong somewhere. I refuse to belive a stabber can out tank my geddon in 0.9 space...
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.02 17:32:00 -
[64] - Quote
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 02/07/2008 17:32:24
Originally by: Spurty
I don't care what it is, as long as I can do it as well ;-)
There is a solution, drop 10+ militia in BS on top of them so they can't warp away from the navy and start killing them.
Its called an exploit as the navy is DESIGNED to deal with this threat and they can not and do not appear to escalate their attempts.
Its not a bug, nothing crashes. Its just interesting to see the navy spawn code so ineffective at dealing with the threat.
Something I too wish to 'exploit' myself. Call it 'not an exploit' all you want, its clearly one though and as long as I don't get my account poo pooed, I'm going to abuse it as well when I get back from my holidays with 10 friends.
Originally by: Akita T
The only PROBABLE exception would be tactical warps - I haven't tried, so I don't know if the navy NPCs are capable (like CONCORD is now, after one relatively recent upgrade) of tactical warps - if the NPCs can't do it, you could probably warp in at a distance, then make a tactical warp, then they'd slow-boat to you ; that's how CONCORD used to work too a long time ago, and that's how people used to delay getting killed long enough to kill the target (it wasn't an exploit, but CONCORD was buffed appropriately afterwards).
From one of the other threads, by Spurty and Akita.
You seem to be both missing a key point of FW:
Faction navy is not Concord. They aren't there to utterly annihilate the target. They are there to attack and disturb it, to make more difficult to attack FW targets in high sec, to make AFKing in hostile territory extremely dangerous.
There is no reason to give them ista warp to target, insta blind and bind target and a lot of reasons to make them tankable, avoidable and killable.
So if you are capable to set it up and warp at a sufficient range not to be locked and force them to approach you it is a valid tactic (if that is the used tactic) and not an exploit.
There is no sense in getting more of them to spawn every 20 seconds like this suggestion:
Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
ECM/Dampen yeah yeah we know. Anyone being able to permajam Milita Navy = Stupid but hey, we dont make the rules. Solution is more navy warp in every 20 seconds so permajaming only buys you time, not permanant immunity since navy forget to retarget you and go back to eating donuts etc.
Maybe they need some tweaking, but to repeat it aloud Faction navy is not CONCORD.
if you want total protection in high sec while aving a wardec (and FW is a wardec) you should build it by yourself, not depending from NPC.
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Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.02 17:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
I'm honestly a little surprised by caldari upset at this. Gallente finally learned from our repeated incursions into high sec space and decided to return the favor. You should know from our own ops that high sec != complete safety from enemy militias.
Quote:
What's described in the Minmatar thread, to someone not familiar with the tactic, would look exactly the same as what we did.
If that's the thread I'm thinking of, what happened was the NPC navies not showing up at all (for a period of 20 minutes).
If that is what your attack looked like, pretty clearly the NPC navies are not functioning as it should.
Note that the navy showing up and chasing one guy off somewhere while everyone else can sit unmolested at a gate/station is still in the category of 'not functioning as intended'.
However, if it's ruled as not an exploit, everyone should adapt and do the same thing!
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Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.07.02 17:37:00 -
[66] - Quote
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 02/07/2008 17:41:34
Originally by: Ulstan
I'm honestly a little surprised by caldari upset at this. Gallente finally learned from our repeated incursions into high sec space and decided to return the favor. You should know from our own ops that high sec != complete safety from enemy militias.
Quote:
What's described in the Minmatar thread, to someone not familiar with the tactic, would look exactly the same as what we did.
If that's the thread I'm thinking of, what happened was the NPC navies not showing up at all (for a period of 20 minutes).
If that is what your attack looked like, pretty clearly the NPC navies are not functioning as it should.
Note that the navy showing up and chasing one guy off somewhere while everyone else can sit unmolested at a gate/station is still in the category of 'not functioning as intended'.
However, if it's ruled as not an exploit, everyone should adapt and do the same thing!
That is the "Get the navy to chase you, then go off grid and LOL, they never come back" one?
There are about 3-4 different ways to compleatly render navy impontent. All are allowed.
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Faife
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.02 17:50:00 -
[67] - Quote
C'mon people, they clearly answered all questions of "are we safe in high sec" with "no, but a navy will spawn to help you"
what part of that is confusing? you're not safe, you simply have some assistance.
and for god's sake, all it takes to break these ships is a mwd and a scram. take off some of those shield extenders and pvp fit.
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Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.07.02 18:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 02/07/2008 18:05:51
Originally by: Faife
C'mon people, they clearly answered all questions of "are we safe in high sec" with "no, but a navy will spawn to help you"
what part of that is confusing? you're not safe, you simply have some assistance.
and for god's sake, all it takes to break these ships is a mwd and a scram. take off some of those shield extenders and pvp fit.
Not really true. You can prevent navy form spawning ongrid. Thats the problem number 1. Another problem is that navy that do spawn, you can prevent them from ever targeting you. Thats problem number 2 etc etc
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Faife
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.02 18:14:00 -
[69] - Quote
Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
Not really true. You can prevent navy form spawning ongrid. Thats the problem number 1. Another problem is that navy that do spawn, you can prevent them from ever targeting you. Thats problem number 2 etc etc
i'll summarize what i originally wrote: "i don't believe you".
the one screenshot proves nothing, i can park a rifter in Jita and sit at 0 m/s long enough to take a screenshot. i want movie that clearly shows a group of WTs sitting in enemy high sec over 30 seconds, either totally safe, or using some ECM voodoo.
cause frankly i think you're lying.
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Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.02 18:15:00 -
[70] - Quote
Originally by: Faife
C'mon people, they clearly answered all questions of "are we safe in high sec" with "no, but a navy will spawn to help you"
what part of that is confusing?
When you watch the enemy sit there for 20 minutes and the navy doesn't spawn?
I mean, if I see a bunch of gallente tangling with the caldari navy and owning them, awesome, good show chaps, hope you can get the kills you earned.
If I see a bunch of gallente sitting in caldari space with no caldari navy to be seen...eh ??
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.02 19:38:00 -
[71] - Quote
Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 19:45:53
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Akita T
The only PROBABLE exception would be tactical warps - I haven't tried, so I don't know if the navy NPCs are capable (like CONCORD is now, after one relatively recent upgrade) of tactical warps - if the NPCs can't do it, you could probably warp in at a distance, then make a tactical warp, then they'd slow-boat to you ; that's how CONCORD used to work too a long time ago, and that's how people used to delay getting killed long enough to kill the target (it wasn't an exploit, but CONCORD was buffed appropriately afterwards).
Faction navy is not Concord. They aren't there to utterly annihilate the target. They are there to attack and disturb it, to make more difficult to attack FW targets in high sec, to make AFKing in hostile territory extremely dangerous.
There is no reason to give them ista warp to target, insta blind and bind target and a lot of reasons to make them tankable, avoidable and killable.
Hypothetically speaking, IF they lack tactical warp capability and that WOULD have been intended for them, then they wouldn't spawn initially right on top of you, but many kilometers away.
So, yeah, give them the 10-15-20-whatever seconds delay before they follow you in a tactical warp, but as they do have warp capability (following you in normal warp), it follows that they should also have tactical warp capabilities, just like player ships.
I seriously doubt tac-warping 200-300 km to make'em slowboat 40-60 seconds or more towards you would have been an intended feature.
Wouldn't you say so ?
Yes, they're supposed to be (borderline) tankable, they're supposed to be avoidable, but they're also supposed to be a major inconvenience if you decide to stay and fight (so you would have to fight severely outmatched in ENEMY highsec).
Heck, the NPC response should be not only system-security dependant, but also ship-class dependant, if it isn't already.
If not, what's next ? Somebody who owns one of the Caldari highsec Moros having his corp join the Gallente militia ?
Killable ? Yeah, sure... then a couple of seconds later, another spawns to replace it.
If you enjoy collecting navy tags or somesuch (do they even drop them?) then go ahead.
Avoidable or tankable ?
That for sure. But for a short while !
Not for LONGER than a couple of seconds, a minute or two tops.
Avoidable while sitting in a spot ? No way.
Perma-tankable ? No way either, well, at least not in 0.9 and 1.0 ! And even in 0.8, it should be damned hard to come close to a perma-tank.
Also, I'm sure nobody was even mentioning infi-ECMing, -100% webbing nor scrambling navy NPCs.
The intended purpose of FW was to draw people to LOWSEC, not to enable gankfests in enemy highsec.
Hit-and-run tactics in enemy highsec are fine and dandy, as long as you can barely get a couple of shots and then be forced by the NPC assault to warp out or be destroyed in a matter of 20-50 seconds or so, depending on system sec rating and ship used.
If not, then the whole concept was pointless : what's there to draw you into lowsec, if you can easily raid the enemy highsec systems ; what's there to keep you in the FW, if you're not significantly safer in your own empire's highsec than in contested territory ; and so on and so forth.
So, while this was an admirable display of player skill, this is about on par with the Yulay CONCORD incident, which triggered significant changes in how CONCORD works.
ALSO, THERE'S THAT OTHER PROBLEM, COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM THE ONE IN THIS THREAD.
The problem of navy NPCs not spawning/warping/whaetever at all, with militia members sitting on gates for minutes on end, with no faction navies in sight.
Like I said, I just hope that's some kind of weird bug that will actually get fixed ASAP.
_
EXPRESS SUPPORT for the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
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Calypso's Wrath
Caldari
Black Watch Legionnaires
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Posted - 2008.07.02 20:12:00 -
[72] - Quote
I love the taste of Caldari tears!
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Taedrin
Gallente
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.07.02 20:34:00 -
[73] - Quote
I sure am glad I learned about this by losing a rifter while on autopilot through Amarr space instead of by losing a fully T2 fit battleship...
Note to self, Navy does not provide protection similar to CONCORD. Autopilot in allied high sec space = not safe.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.02 20:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
Originally by: Akita T
Hypothetically speaking, IF they lack tactical warp capability and that WOULD have been intended for them, then they wouldn't spawn initially right on top of you, but many kilometers away.
So, yeah, give them the 10-15-20-whatever seconds delay before they follow you in a tactical warp, but as they do have warp capability (following you in normal warp), it follows that they should also have tactical warp capabilities, just like player ships.
I seriously doubt tac-warping 200-300 km to make'em slowboat 40-60 seconds or more towards you would have been an intended feature.
Wouldn't you say so ?
Yes, they're supposed to be (borderline) tankable, they're supposed to be avoidable, but they're also supposed to be a major inconvenience if you decide to stay and fight (so you would have to fight severely outmatched in ENEMY highsec).
Heck, the NPC response should be not only system-security dependant, but also ship-class dependant, if it isn't already.
If not, what's next ? Somebody who owns one of the Caldari highsec Moros having his corp join the Gallente militia ?
Killable ? Yeah, sure... then a couple of seconds later, another spawns to replace it.
If you enjoy collecting navy tags or somesuch (do they even drop them?) then go ahead.
Avoidable or tankable ?
That for sure. But for a short while !
Not for LONGER than a couple of seconds, a minute or two tops.
Avoidable while sitting in a spot ? No way.
Perma-tankable ? No way either, well, at least not in 0.9 and 1.0 ! And even in 0.8, it should be damned hard to come close to a perma-tank.
Also, I'm sure nobody was even mentioning infi-ECMing, -100% webbing nor scrambling navy NPCs.
The intended purpose of FW was to draw people to LOWSEC, not to enable gankfests in enemy highsec.
Hit-and-run tactics in enemy highsec are fine and dandy, as long as you can barely get a couple of shots and then be forced by the NPC assault to warp out or be destroyed in a matter of 20-50 seconds or so, depending on system sec rating and ship used.
If not, then the whole concept was pointless : what's there to draw you into lowsec, if you can easily raid the enemy highsec systems ; what's there to keep you in the FW, if you're not significantly safer in your own empire's highsec than in contested territory ; and so on and so forth.
So, while this was an admirable display of player skill, this is about on par with the Yulay CONCORD incident, which triggered significant changes in how CONCORD works.
How Players get tactical warp? Oh yes, using several ships to warp one to another, or getting bookmarks, os using probes. Nothing of that is automatic or granted in any way. You instead wish to give ista warp to 0 to whoever is their target.
You have decide that "tactical war" was an intended feature because you want them to ave it. Instead it seem the haven't it. Maybe the lack was an intended feature? I don't know that and you don't know that.
For your same logic: "borderline tankable". The damage they and how they do it was chosen by CCP, so if they are "too easy" to tank it is a intended feature too?
You are not speaking of what they are but of what you fell they should be.
About the other things: have you read some of your fellows? "more ship spawning every 20 seconds". Yes, they want Concord and you aren't very far from that.
You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.
The purpose of FW was a war, with the major focus in low sec, not a low sec only war. See the difference?
About the other issue, if it is real and not another perceived but not existent exploit like this one, yes, it must be corrected. But it is not the argument of this thread a the accusations of cheating.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:03:00 -
[75] - Quote
Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 21:05:52
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You are not speaking of what they are but of what you fell they should be.
You're saying this as if it's a bad thing.
Quote:
You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.
20-50 seconds PER WARP. That's a huge difference. As it forces you to apply almost only hit-and-run tactics.
You can survive as long as you like (or are allowed to, by enemy militia players) in any one enemy system.
You just can't camp a spot.
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EXPRESS SUPPORT for the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:15:00 -
[76] - Quote
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 21:09:12
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You are not speaking of what they are but of what you fell they should be.
You're saying this as if it's a bad thing.
Quote:
You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.
20-50 seconds PER WARP. That's a huge difference. As it forces you to apply almost only hit-and-run tactics.
You can survive as long as you like (or are allowed to, by enemy militia players) in any one enemy system.
You just can't camp a single spot continously.
And by the way, these guys, the ones this thread is about, they specifically stated that's what they were doing : employing hit and run tactics.
Now, I haven't witnessed it first-hand, so I'll withold further comment on their particular tactic until I see it with my own eyes.
Still, one CAN speculate on how things are or should be regardless.
20-50 seconds from warp to warp. What they will kill? T1 frigates?
20-50 seconds if the militia engage them too is ok. Against only the navy , no.
And yes, as your idea is that losses in friendly high sec are unacceptable (that would be the results of your proposals) changuing FW navyes how you want them is bad.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2008 21:23:26
Originally by: Venkul Mul
20-50 seconds from warp to warp. What they will kill? T1 frigates?[...]
And yes, as your idea is that losses in friendly high sec are unacceptable (that would be the results of your proposals) changuing FW navyes how you want them is bad.
1. see edit on concerns
2. also see edit about the part where I say that MAYBE the factional navy NPCs work exactly like I described they should be working.
The completely legitimate tactics I describe as POSSIBLY having been employed by them would actually work in the "how NPCs should act like" scenario I just presented just fine.
And the Gallente militia forces have killed mission-level tanked Drakes and such in Jita too, not just T1 frigates.
_
EXPRESS SUPPORT for the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
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Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:28:00 -
[78] - Quote
Quote:
You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.
What nonsense.
If you have a minute after every warp you can easily go around killing targets of opportunity with your gang. Haulers, afk pilots using autopilot, mining barges in belts, any kind of frigates not expecting you, etc.
If you insta asploded as soon as you entered hi sec, you couldn't do any of this.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:43:00 -
[79] - Quote
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
You want a limited war, low sec only. 20-50 seconds survival if you enter enemy high sec. Why not ista destruction at that point? the difference is inexistent.
What nonsense.
If you have a minute after every warp you can easily go around killing targets of opportunity with your gang. Haulers, afk pilots using autopilot, mining barges in belts, any kind of frigates not expecting you, etc.
If you insta asploded as soon as you entered hi sec, you couldn't do any of this.
I love people that do this kind of game with numbers. 20-50 seconds is almost a minute, with a minute people can klll afk haulers. Have you noticed that you have multiplied the time between x3 and x1,2?
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Steve Celeste
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:45:00 -
[80] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Doing this is not considered an exploit by our dear Customer Support team. 
Can you confirm that the Navy is bugged and will, in some cases, not show up at all?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:52:00 -
[81] - Quote
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Doing this is not considered an exploit by our dear Customer Support team.
Can you confirm that the Navy is bugged and will, in some cases, not show up at all?
Use the other thread speaking about the possible bug, please, as from Wrangler word what is happening there is not a bug (using a exploit include exploiting a bug).
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Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:58:00 -
[82] - Quote
Quote:
I love people that do this kind of game with numbers. 20-50 seconds is almost a minute, with a minute people can klll afk haulers. Have you noticed that you have multiplied the time between x3 and x1,2?
I you seriously going to argue that my rounding 50s up to a minute is more egregious than your rounding it down to 0s and claiming it's exactly the same as instant exploding?
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Corduroy Rab
Xenocidal Uprising
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Posted - 2008.07.02 21:58:00 -
[83] - Quote
Ok so after reading this thread I decided to try this whole tactical warp and the navy slow boating it idea. (I take by tactical warp you mean warping while on the same grid). Went to a cald high sec station in Yashunen and set up a bm 200m from the station in my pod. Came back in a rookie ship, waited for the faction navy to spawn and engage me, then warped to the station. When I entered warp they de-spawned, and when I landed they re-spawned about 19km from me.
I was surprised though how long my rookie ship lasted under their fire, though only the smallest of the spawn was shooting me.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.02 22:02:00 -
[84] - Quote
Originally by: Venkul Mul
2. I think I have puzzled what you mean there, but if FW navies are intended to work like you say or not is a thing CCP know and eventually should say so.
Yes, I could already see you had difficulties in comprehending both what I say they actually did and why faction navies MIGHT work exactly like I described them as working (minus the target-specific spawn part).
Let me try to spell it out for you... again.
With less hypoteticals and talking as if what I say below is actually what happened, so it won't be so confusing for you anymore.
[start possible "what just happened" scenario]
THE GUYS THIS THREAD IS ABOUT were a large group of ships.
Every 20-30 seconds, when the navy NPCs showed up next to them, they warped out from wherever they were to an off-grid location, then back as soon as possible.
WHILE at that location, they were quickly targetting whatever ship was primaried and unloaded on it at full force from point-blank range and zero speed.
SOME of them might have been equipped for remote repair and capacitor trasfer, and they were constantly repairing and resupplying the ones that chose to sit there still.
When the navies showed up several seconds later, they quickly warped off again, then immediately back and kept shooting.
The navies continued to follow them wherever they went, locking and shooting and neutralizing and doing whatever it is they do.
IN SPITE of the navies being constantly on their backs, and in spite of only seconds after a warp before the navies dealt significant amounts of hurt on them, they kept fighting and DESROYING great amounts of Cadlari militia ships
[end possible "what just happened" scenario]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
1. Still 20-50 between warp in and warp out, so what is the edit?
THE CONCERNS.
The part about capitals getting responded to by pathetic spawns compared to their size.
The part about how IF tac-warps could be used to delay the NPCs, they would be overpowered.
And the part with how remote assist from neutrals would maybe not trigger a navy NPC response.
_
EXPRESS SUPPORT for the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.02 22:04:00 -
[85] - Quote
Originally by: Corduroy Rab
Went to a cald high sec station in Yashunen and set up a bm 200m from the station in my pod. Came back in a rookie ship, waited for the faction navy to spawn and engage me, then warped to the station. When I entered warp they de-spawned, and when I landed they re-spawned about 19km from me.
Thank you for testing that the navy actually works how I said it should in this particular situation 
_
EXPRESS SUPPORT for the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
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Pakalolo
Tha Shiznit
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Posted - 2008.07.02 22:59:00 -
[86] - Quote
Originally by: Cadde
I'd say: "You signed up for the war, now fight it!"
^^
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Buffalo Soldiers
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Posted - 2008.07.02 23:05:00 -
[87] - Quote
Originally by: Calypso's Wrath
I love the taste of Caldari tears!
INK! Squids have INK, not tears.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.02 23:07:00 -
[88] - Quote
I said this a while ago when Caldari fools led by your FC Boromir (terrible name btw) brought a Caracal gang into Villore.
"Thank you for showing us we can take Jita"
Whining about not having a concord style navy to protect you in high sec against a "WAR" you signed up for is just sweet bottled tears for us to drink up.
If you dont like getting HAMMERED in this war repeatedly in the Factional low-sec, and now also being BRUTALIZED in your own high-sec then I suggest you lay down and accept you've failed at understanding what "WAR" you've signed up for and admit DEFEAT.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.02 23:09:00 -
[89] - Quote
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Boromir (terrible name btw)
Terrible ? But it SCREAMS "suicide mission"
_
EXPRESS SUPPORT for the issue of mineral and moon material balance !
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Dihania
Gallente
Mucho Dolor
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Posted - 2008.07.02 23:23:00 -
[90] - Quote
caldari whined about nano. caldari whine about being killed in jita.
* next week they will whine about spider tanking bs,
* next one about smart bombs,
* next one about drones,
* ?
* profit
.
EVE: "The Hand-holding Age".
I need isk!Accepting donations.
Renting sig space.Taking various jobs. |
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