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Suvliana
Minmatar
21st Highland Regiment
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Posted - 2008.06.30 18:13:00 -
[1]
Okay, I post once in a while. Sometimes it has content, other times it is to flame the OP. Now, I am going to say this for all of EVE and the CSM/CCP to read.
To all you whiners of nanofaggotry, speed demons, hot drops, etc. Shut the **** up. This is a game. It is not meant to be fair. I think I seen someone post about getting rid of learning skills? Why? Just cause your new and want to have it your way? In everyone of these posts, there are people whining cause they cannot do it or they cannot catch them or cannot cyno jam, blah blah blah.
I am honestly quite sick of it. I can't fly a carrier. I had a Nyx hotdropped onto a station fight in low sec (Thank you Omen, beautiful site) and I got wasted. Ok, so I lost, next! I can use nano ships. I had a awesome arbitrator pilot (Nano'd btw) who came, webbed, pwn'd and left. I win, I lose. Such is the game. My goal in the game is to not have it fair. I don't want to be equal with everyone around me. I want unfair ganks, superior nano ships, etc. Makes you work for your fun. Some of us like 12KM/S Machariel's. Some of us like slow moving Hyperions' with 1200DPS tanks. How the **** do you catch 12KM/S or beat 1200DPS tanks? Use your ******* head!
This is a game where solo play and combined play come together. You choose your style. There are notices saying "If you jump into this system, anyone can blow your ass away with CONCORD saving you". Use what is around you and adapt.
I personally can't deal with whiners. They simply complain about something they don't want to train for 6 months to have. Well, I had to train for 6 ******* months to t2 fit my rapier! I want to enjoy it, not have some snotnosed brat who started yesterday be able to compete with me!
Anyways, I'm off to do something other than ***** on the forums.
Thanks for reading.
Suvliana |
Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.30 19:33:00 -
[2]
I might not have put it that way, but I agree with the sentiment. Wholeheartedly.
Best regards,
Windjammer |
Berious
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.30 21:41:00 -
[3]
Getting rid of learning skills might not be a bad idea. They are a total no brainer to train, it's not like other skills where you train however to customise your character. It's a "fun tax" when you're just starting out which isn't very good if you're trying to show newbies a good time. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.01 03:54:00 -
[4]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 01/07/2008 03:55:21
 Originally by: Berious
Getting rid of learning skills might not be a bad idea. They are a total no brainer to train, it's not like other skills where you train however to customise your character. It's a "fun tax" when you're just starting out which isn't very good if you're trying to show newbies a good time.
I've been playing for 3 years now I would love to see them go.
my simple idea was remove advanced skills and add in up to +10 implants.
replace all +5 implants with +10 and such so the + 10 isn't more expensive.
bam that takes literately 5 months of training time out the window. |
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
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Posted - 2008.07.01 05:05:00 -
[5]
I created this character the other day to just go get the basic pvp skills for tackling and frigate combat stuff, so I got to see the game from the new player perspective again.
The 3x skills on my main train about as fast as a 1x skill on this piece of ****.
This is the first thing a new player experiences when they come into the game, assuming they have a tutor sitting behind them, telling them what to do, then they know what to train in order to fly x ship and use x module, if they even know what modules to use. Which takes a tutor.
Time and time again I hear from people that tried out eve only to be bored to tears during the first couple days, and then never logged on again. And honestly, why should they? CCP's response to the barrier of entry has always been "cry more eve is harsh" and this is to people that have just dipped their toe in the kiddy pool.
I don't know the overall metrics of eve, but i've personally tried to get both my brother and a colleague into eve.
After I explain learning skills to them, they both decided to take learning skills up first. Both lost any excitement they had for eve before they finished learning skills. I even suggested, hey look train a FUN skill so you can fly that ship you wanted to, but they insisted to stick with learning skills because its the smart thing to do. They stopped logging in to train their chars so I finished the learning skills for them.
Told them they're done with the learning skills, and they didn't give a **** anymore. Why should they. Their new player experience, the important time period where a game makes a lasting first impression on the player, was spent training up learning skills. Their lasting impression of eve is yawn.
They watch videos of hotdrops and gatecamps and all of the exciting **** that eve has, but thats not what they remember.
They remember doing some level 1 missions in a ****ty frigate with ****ty fittings waiting on some boring skills to train.
People come up to me while I play eve at work and like what they see. My main can do all kinds of cool ****. Cov-ops, recons, passive tank drakes, nano curse, interceptors, a second account with a fleet sniper battleship with excellent skills at it.
They want to be a part of it. They ask me to help them get into it. Now days, I suggest that they create an account, and let me create and train their character for 2 months before attempting to play. Of course none of them follow through with this because its a ridiculous proposition, but one that I believe in. Otherwise, they'd probably get bored to death and quit after a day or 2. Like that last 2 people I tried to get into eve.
To be honest though, eve's new character creation process needs a hell of a lot more than to delete the learning skills from the game.
Support skills. The skills that effect fitting and capacitor are essentials. These skills, like learning skills, aren't fun, they're just necessary. I can't fit my equipment without these, I can't operate my equipment without those. Not to mention they don't make any goddamn sense, but this is internet spaceships.
So yeah. There are things that aren't new player friendly. CCP should probably recognize these and do their best to make their game more fun, and focus less on making sure that the player earns that fun.
Eliminating learning skills would be a start, and proof that ccp actually cares.
Fake edit: I think you'd see vast improvements to eve if all the devs were forced to delete all of their characters and start as a new player, and make them play alongside someone thats never played eve before. 
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
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Posted - 2008.07.01 05:14:00 -
[6]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 01/07/2008 03:55:21
Originally by: Berious
Getting rid of learning skills might not be a bad idea. They are a total no brainer to train, it's not like other skills where you train however to customise your character. It's a "fun tax" when you're just starting out which isn't very good if you're trying to show newbies a good time.
I've been playing for 3 years now I would love to see them go.
my simple idea was remove advanced skills and add in up to +10 implants.
replace all +5 implants with +10 and such so the + 10 isn't more expensive.
bam that takes literately 5 months of training time out the window.
Stat implants are another thing that hurt the game because it makes people far too careful. All newer players want to have stat implants. Obviously you can't sustain that if you keep getting podded, so they are ultra careful. They create carebears.
Stat implants are a carebear implant. They don't help you in pvp, or help you do anything better. They just make your pod cost millions more than it normally would. And they are very attractive to new players. (and do a great job at making new players avoid pvp)
The only new players that i've seen approach the game in the correct way are the goons, but thats because they did CCP's job for them and pretty much dictated what to do and what not to do and in what order. Like don't use any implants, you're going to die. And educate the player exactly what they are getting into with skill training and learning skills, what to expect, and how to approach it.
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Artemis Rose
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.07.01 07:02:00 -
[7]
But.. but.. but.. I am entitled to win because I am a human being with emotions and I think its wholesomely unfair that my interests to win are not being addressed. We are all people and we need equal amounts of win time to keep it all fair. To suggest some people can be only winners and some can only be losers breaks the cooperative spirit of game play we should seek to foster within the star cluster.
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari
Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.07.01 07:08:00 -
[8]
When I first started, I didn't really have a mentor telling me what skills to train. I started with the fun stuff, and it was fun. As the time went on, I started wanting to do more, and it was usually along the lines of: "Heck, I need a bit more CPU to be able to use that fitting." - "You do know there is a skill that increases CPU don't you?" and so on. I have followed that philosophy and still subscribe to it now - even with 35m SPs I'm still finding new "newbie skills" I have not trained yet, simply because I haven't needed to.
As for learning skills, I came across those almost by accident after 5 or 6 monbths of play time. Until then I hadn't really appreciated the way in which stats affected training time - I thought you needed them to actually fly better. I started to intersperse them with the fun things - one fun skill, then one learning skill, one fun skill... and so on. And they eventually got done. I saved the higher echelons of those skills for times when I was too busy in RL to log on for any length of time.
My point is that as experienced players, we already know the short cuts. However, EVE is about discovery. The main barrier for new players in any established MMORPG is the incredibly steep learning curve (I seriously pity any new players starting Everquest now, with its 14 expansions) which is a natural process of devs adding cool new stuff. Sometimes it's better not to try and tell new players *all* the short cuts, let them ask in their own time. Sure, learning skills make them learn skills faster, but if they don't know about them, they won't worry about them.
I personally think they should stay. Learning skills are only good for the long term player. But you don't get a long term player without letting them get hooked right at the start. If they want to learn fun stuff first, let them, and let them have fun. Save the learning skills until they develop the more philosophical long-term view of skill training - I regularly train skills that take several weeks these days (52 skills at level 5 and counting!), when I first started I'd go stir crazy if I even had to wait a couple of days to see a new skill.
I have waffled here, for which sorry - but I gotta get ready for work and have no more time to go back and edit for legibility. Sorry bout that :)
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Void Monarch
Aorte Cerebrum
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Posted - 2008.07.01 07:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lia Gaeren
post
QFT
Eve is all about a discovery. |
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
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Posted - 2008.07.01 07:39:00 -
[10]
I understand that some people don't mind learning skills, but its more important than simply saying "well some people are fine with it, it stays".
Some people are fine with it, others hate it and think it ruins the new player experience.
Thats an easy compromise.
Those that "don't mind" the learning skills wouldn't feel anywhere near as strongly about them being removed as others feel about their current existence.
I love them | I like them | I don't care | I don't like them | I hate them | I lost interest because of them
How many people fit into which category? I think you'd find few people who love them, and many who hate them, and im guessing thousands of people that have stopped playing eve due to them ruining their initial eve experience.
So for a lot of people its a lot more important than the fact that those of us who play were able to cope. (obviously, cause we play) But then, we're the only ones posting here. You won't see my brother posting here about it. (whome was once very excited about eve, until he started waiting to play the game)
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Void Monarch
Aorte Cerebrum
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Posted - 2008.07.01 08:59:00 -
[11]
Disagreed. Most of people "don't care" about learning.
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Darth Vaders
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.01 09:09:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Darth Vaders on 01/07/2008 09:11:07
When i started this game about 1 year ago i was thinking that i probably hate it and i will never return after the trial expiration.
Well, within 2 days i had signed for a real account. 
I dealt with the leraning skills a sa feature that in course of time will help me gain some time. But i realised that i wouldn't need to train them too much at the beggining since they don;t count so much if you plan to train the basic skills till lvl 3. So i trained them a bit but i didn't spend my first 2 weeks training only them.
You are not oblidged to train the learning skills. I didn't at first and haven't regreted for doing so. But i dealt with them as a cool feature that will help me gain skillpoints faster. Nothing more, nothing less.
The approach that is a "must" to train them and you must not train anything else before train them is not very valid for me. All in all i may have lost about 1 week of training just because i didn't train the learning skills at the very beginning. No big deal.... What matters is that i absolutly enjoyed this game from day 1.
I think some people get too obsessed with numbers. You can train all the basic learning skills just to lvl 3 and then train the other basic stuff. It will give you a serious ability boost without wrecking your fun. I don't see what is this whine all about.
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari
Felicis Umbra
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Posted - 2008.07.01 09:28:00 -
[13]
The reason so many people complain about the new character experience now days is very very simple. Eve isn't the same as when you all started. Oh, you may THINK its the same, minus a few odds and ends here and there. But really think about it. Every new system, every new mechanic, every new ship, every new module. Eve tends to progress at a rate faster than any other MMO I can think of, in the area of gameplay mechanics. And it all stacks. Everytime they add something, it gets exponentially harder for a new player to actually learn the game.
CCP really needs to just stop for a patch. Stop putting any new content or mechanics in, and just write an update of nothing but tutorials, explanations, and interactive in game guides. It would do more for their bottom line in subscriber base than any amount of advertising they do.
Because I really don't think the Devs, or any of the old players can really appreciate what the current learning curve of this game is. I've learned languages with less of a learning curve than eve has. |
Ava Santiago
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.05 17:52:00 -
[14]
Learning skills are vital.
They must stay.
Career explanations with optimized tree paths (by faction) need to be made available in the FAQ's somewhere. Note that these optimized skills paths are not likely to include "learning" skills.
For example, the optimization for a Caldari Pilot mission runner. Provide a list of prioritized skills for mission running, Ship, Weapons, Tank, etc. But design it so someone following that career path will have nothing but that skill set. This kind of "path" would be very helpful for a newcomer, and some of us vets might find useful information for career paths we have not yet picked up. - The point of course would be to lower the learning curve.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Belmarduk
Amarr
de Prieure
Four Elements
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Posted - 2008.07.08 10:08:00 -
[15]
/agree with OP wholeheartiley
CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
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Nakimoto
Caldari
Unnatural Growth
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Posted - 2008.07.09 05:10:00 -
[16]
I agree and disagree. Agree learning skills are boring but contend that this is the equivilant of grinding any other MMO they have likely ever tried. IF they have an experiance of grinding relentless hours killing the same spawn over and over again to get the really cool weapon that drops 1 in 1000 tries then learning skills should not be a problem. No matter what MMO I have personally played I always looked in aww of those experianced and older players whom have the coolest stuff. hell I have been at this game for a year now and still surf the sell orders wondering how in the hell people have 30 bil to drop on a crappy tech 2 bpo. To balance this void CCP has continued to raise the starting SP lvl....kinda like a middle class tax cut so there is not a great casm of time between grinding lvl 1 missions and super passive fitting a drake over heating your tech 2 webber and watching a 12km/s Mach pilot cry. Life is not fair niether is eve get over it.
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Aria Seniste
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Posted - 2008.07.11 03:53:00 -
[17]
Learning skills are a "bad" idea because they have nothing to do with how well your character performs at anything: Except training times.
They aren't really "optional" unless you like taking too long to train skills. With a few levels of them you'll end up ahead within a couple weeks. Anyone saying "I did it, stop whining." is just bitter. Having to train learning skills adds nothing to the game. It does not add difficulty. It's not something they have to work for.. it's just a waiting period. At the worst possible time.
You want to immerse new players as quickly as possible. This means letting them play and noticeably advance... rather than spending their entire trial -waiting- to advance. Just give everyone the equivalent of 5/5 learning skills. No one loses anything; most of us gain, and would not complain for it.
On an unrelated note, I think a true "mentor" is probably the worst thing for a new player in EVE. The learning curve is steep, but the "mentor" is going to try to maximize the efficiency of the new player... not the new players ability to enjoy the game. Sure, rushing learning skills is fine if you're making an alt, but for a new player it's a drudge. I think I would have grown bored with EVE rapidly if I'd not discovered things on my own... and been told to grind straight into higher missions for isk, get this ship, train these skills, etc...
Instead, I trained straight into assault ships, and tried to gank a Vagabond in my 1M sp rifter in a .3. And had a hell of a lot of fun doing it. 
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Suvliana
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.12 12:45:00 -
[18]
Ok, Im talking about nano ships and all you whiners out there and this goes into learning skills? I could not give a flying **** about learning skills!. The thing is, everyone wants to nerf nano ships. I trained cruiser 5, the ******ed electronic upgrades 5, and all the t2 shit to fit it with. Now some noob comes along, goes I cant win against him and demands it be stripped from me because he doesn't want to train cruiser 5. **** off with the learning skills, it's the time investment *****es.
Keep the post on track. I don't want to hear your whining about learning skills.
Props to my nano bro's who keep ****ing everyone else off.
Suvliana
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Vega Alioth
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.12 18:35:00 -
[19]
totally agree with this thread - whiney threads are literally everywhere - and normal threads suddennly seem to turn into whiney threads. to a pretty far extent i trust ccp to manage the game, i really like to see the players having input but when it comes to balancing the game, making it fair or unfair, fun and easy for new players yet still having a big difference between newbs and veterans, i say just leave it to ccp and play the game you whiney little *****.
vega
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Le Mortnoir
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Posted - 2008.07.13 02:31:00 -
[20]
I am a new player, and I have to say I dont mind the Learning Skill Sets, it is a little odd the way the whole training thing is handled, but thats part of the mechanics. Personally I have trained some of them up but have mainly piled most of it in to Gunnery, its all choice. I accept that this does indeed look like a limiter, and yes it does put some people off, but thats EvE for you.
However people are entitled to their opinion, and I dont have a problem if a valid coherent agrument is put forward. What I do find odd is the (might have been intentional) heavy irony in the OP. You may not like the idea of the Learning Skill Sets being removed but you could surely express yourself a little better, youre not only whining yourself about something. You also shot yourself in the foot with;
Quote:
This is a game. It is not meant to be fair.
So any argument of well we had to train them, is invalidated by your above statement, because as you said its not ment to be fair.
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Galactic Tycoon
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Posted - 2008.07.14 03:22:00 -
[21]
Opening poster if people wish you moan let them moan. This is a forum so there will be opinions. If you can't respect an opinion or in this case a whine they a) don't read it b)leave the forums.
I honestly am shocked you'd get so stressed out over someone complaining in a forum! Give it a rest, take a deep breath and relax.
Whinners will always moan and if they do, what's it to you? If it makes them feel better leave them be and stop breathing fire over it ffs. I doubt every player including you has never once moaned about something in his EVE life. That wouldn't be unusual, the game isn't perfect.
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Kalahari Wayrest
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.15 23:41:00 -
[22]
Quote:
This is a game. It is not meant to be fair. I think I seen someone post about getting rid of learning skills? Why? Just cause your new and want to have it your way?
Quote:
Ok, Im talking about nano ships and all you whiners out there and this goes into learning skills? I could not give a flying **** about learning skills!
If you didn't want people to talk about it, you shouldn't have brought it up in your OP
Oh, and...you're whining about whiners 
__________________________
Indulge Me
Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥
Wow immy scored  - Xorus
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.16 09:46:00 -
[23]
Nerf Whiners \0/
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.16 09:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Halycon Gamma
The reason so many people complain about the new character experience now days is very very simple. Eve isn't the same as when you all started. Oh, you may THINK its the same, minus a few odds and ends here and there. But really think about it. Every new system, every new mechanic, every new ship, every new module. Eve tends to progress at a rate faster than any other MMO I can think of, in the area of gameplay mechanics. And it all stacks. Everytime they add something, it gets exponentially harder for a new player to actually learn the game.
CCP really needs to just stop for a patch. Stop putting any new content or mechanics in, and just write an update of nothing but tutorials, explanations, and interactive in game guides. It would do more for their bottom line in subscriber base than any amount of advertising they do.
Because I really don't think the Devs, or any of the old players can really appreciate what the current learning curve of this game is. I've learned languages with less of a learning curve than eve has.
This, tbh.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Creepin
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Posted - 2008.07.16 14:06:00 -
[25]
Huh? If whiney noobs will get learning skills removed I'll demand five month worth of skillpoints reimbursed, doh!
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari
Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.07.16 20:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: MirrorGod
This, tbh.
Funny
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.21 06:02:00 -
[27]
aother idea is to make learning skills a separate over time skilling system in which you can train one while other skills train normally at normal speed.
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AltBier
Minmatar
Freelance Unincorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.21 11:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Berious
Getting rid of learning skills might not be a bad idea. They are a total no brainer to train, it's not like other skills where you train however to customise your character. It's a "fun tax" when you're just starting out which isn't very good if you're trying to show newbies a good time.
All that needs to happen is that people STOP telling noobs: "train all learning skills before doing anything else".
Instead tell them to first train up simple rank 1 & 2 skills which let them fly better ships and do fun stuff. Once you start learning more advanced skills, then you can train up the basic learning skills and later on the more advanced learning skills.
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.07.22 16:27:00 -
[29]
*thumbs up*
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Ishkur
Policy Research Group
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Posted - 2008.07.22 18:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lia Gaeren
When I first started, I didn't really have a mentor telling me what skills to train. I started with the fun stuff, and it was fun. As the time went on, I started wanting to do more, and it was usually along the lines of: "Heck, I need a bit more CPU to be able to use that fitting." - "You do know there is a skill that increases CPU don't you?" and so on. I have followed that philosophy and still subscribe to it now - even with 35m SPs I'm still finding new "newbie skills" I have not trained yet, simply because I haven't needed to.
As for learning skills, I came across those almost by accident after 5 or 6 monbths of play time. Until then I hadn't really appreciated the way in which stats affected training time - I thought you needed them to actually fly better. I started to intersperse them with the fun things - one fun skill, then one learning skill, one fun skill... and so on. And they eventually got done. I saved the higher echelons of those skills for times when I was too busy in RL to log on for any length of time.
My point is that as experienced players, we already know the short cuts. However, EVE is about discovery. The main barrier for new players in any established MMORPG is the incredibly steep learning curve (I seriously pity any new players starting Everquest now, with its 14 expansions) which is a natural process of devs adding cool new stuff. Sometimes it's better not to try and tell new players *all* the short cuts, let them ask in their own time. Sure, learning skills make them learn skills faster, but if they don't know about them, they won't worry about them.
I personally think they should stay. Learning skills are only good for the long term player. But you don't get a long term player without letting them get hooked right at the start. If they want to learn fun stuff first, let them, and let them have fun. Save the learning skills until they develop the more philosophical long-term view of skill training - I regularly train skills that take several weeks these days (52 skills at level 5 and counting!), when I first started I'd go stir crazy if I even had to wait a couple of days to see a new skill.
I have waffled here, for which sorry - but I gotta get ready for work and have no more time to go back and edit for legibility. Sorry bout that :)
I'm sorry, Lia Gaeren, but you apparently do not understand how to play a MMORPG. In short, you have played EVE incorrectly. Please delete your character and start over, and play the game properly this time.
1. Create only the race/class/schools that are going to give you the leg up you need for day 1.
2. Train all learning skills in the exact order as dictated by EVEMON. It's best if you can set aside a week or two to be at your computer 24/7.
3. Only train skills necessary for the particular task you are going to perform. It is best if you can narrow this down exactly ahead of time, including exactly which mods you will equip on your ship.
4. Have absolutely no fun whatsoever, this is not allowed.
/sarcasm
I agree entirely, Lia Gaeren. I don't agree with the OP because they are a little too #4 for my taste. And I don't really agree with the idea of removing Learning skills (I like the idea of adding new ones though, or even a tertiary (new) attribute to skills!).
Learning skills are a great time sink for players who like time sinks and min-maxing and being uber efficient. There are lots of you, and that's okay.
For the rest of us, they are an interesting way to speed things up at some distant point in the future but I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Last night I was training Eidetic Memory but I decided I wanted to play with a Destroyer (HERESY!) and so I trained up Destroyers real quick! 
I know, I'm a total noob. I did something I thought would be fun. Shoot me!
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