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Aneu Angellus
Rubra Libertas Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.21 15:33:00 -
[1]
In response to the GMs attempting to become a little more transparent i would like to call them out on probably the biggest issue people have with eve customer support.
The log
Im sure if you have petitioned a ship loss in your time in eve, you have either been very very very lucky and had it replaced (or it was more than 2 years ago) or had the 'our logs show nothing' (funnily its only really started happening in the past 2/3 years).
So, my plee is this, tell us what the log shows exactly, and before the nay sayers come in - no the log cant be used to 'exploit' anything its basic data, which im hoping gives location, previous actions, and so forth...
I would like to see, as im sure plenty of others do, what the logs show, and how the GM's come to the conclusion of not replacing a ship.
As im sure alot of people are aware, the GM team denied everything about desyncs when it was occuring almost daily, CCP also denied that it was a problem their end... so the hype died down, 6 months later CCP admit to desync problems and fix it... only to have the GMs say they dont have the 'logs'.
Anyway, enough typing... support, flame, do what you will, but as a long standing member of the community i would like this issue clarrified as it should have been a long time ago.
Aneu ________________
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Wild Rho
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.06.21 15:41:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 21/06/2008 15:41:12 When they say they checked their logs what they mean is they took a dump in the toilet and tried to read it (like tea leaves only smellier).
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.06.21 15:52:00 -
[3]
The logs don't show anything... that would justify reimbursement.
People fail to read. This is the only issue here.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.06.21 16:08:00 -
[4]
had a ship back 4 weeks ago due to jumping but never changed systems and died
"Bringing Content to you 1 round of ammo at a time" |
Dantes Revenge
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Posted - 2008.06.21 16:38:00 -
[5]
I've run lvl4 missions and had a corp mate popped by lag. His ship was lost and "no record in the logs" came as a response to his petition. Funny, cos I actually saw him warp out intact as the lag cleared for a couple of seconds for me.
I actually thought he'd made it out but on vent, he said he was still in his ship and still being shot at and still a short way off the speed for warping. Another lag freeze and he said his ship exploded but on my overview, neither his ship, pod or any wreckage could be seen. I started to warp out as well cos there was no way I could tank it and right up to the point I left, there was no sign of any wreck of his ship.
We logged out and back in which helped clear the lag enough for us to finish the mission with my mate in another ship but still no sign of the wreck of the one he lost. WTF?
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Asestorian
Domination. Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.21 16:49:00 -
[6]
The issues people have is because they don't understand what is a reimbursable event or not. Lag, desyncs and that sort of thing don't get reimbursed. It would be nice if their standard response was clearer in this though.
People should read the rules for reimbursement before they get so agitated about this sort of thing.
---
Quote: EVE is unfair by design.
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Kerushi
Naval Protection Corp Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.06.21 16:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Kerushi on 21/06/2008 16:51:08 lost an abaddon most likely to desync
went ratting as i normally do but after a couple of belts my ship just exploded and i ended up in my pod
armor repair icon happily blinking at 100% armor cap stable at normal 45-50% normal spawns with wich i can go to sleep and come back to 100% armor
*pop* did the ship as if the armor repair never registerd to be active after doing the shield/armor/hull math with damage taken and on the kill mail "involved parties" simply blank
ofcourse, "sorry our logs don`t show anything", kinda expected heh
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Aneu Angellus
Rubra Libertas Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Asestorian The issues people have is because they don't understand what is a reimbursable event or not. Lag, desyncs and that sort of thing don't get reimbursed. It would be nice if their standard response was clearer in this though.
People should read the rules for reimbursement before they get so agitated about this sort of thing.
Then a good customer service department head would change those rules. The desync issue is a CCP one not a customer computer related one... hence their problem, hence they should reimburse it... There are no ifs buts whens why's or who's about it... if it falls within CCP's remit, either server issues (not through ISP) desync, bug or anything of the like, even if it isnt 100% proven by a log, the customer should get their item back, no questions asked.
Sure, some people will attempt to get ships back saying 'oh but i desynced, or i lagged, or this that the other' but with competent log reading you can see what module the person last activated on the person, the time it was done down to the second and when they died, if they didnt activate a module throughout the entire fight, my CS experiance would say its genuine and i would give their ship back, quite simple really... ________________
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Aneu Angellus
Rubra Libertas Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:05:00 -
[9]
The fact that people have stopped petition ship losses that they know full well arent due to them is absolutley shocking. I myself wont petition a loss because i know the response.
If you want to make your customer service better you need to rework some of your internal policies CCP - Giving a ship back costs no money, giving a ship back creates a good CS experiance, after almost 90% of people who petition for ship reimbursement getting 'logs show nothing' this is absolutley dire.
Dont get me wrong, if the GM is quite sure the person is lying, dont give the ship back, but, if the GM cannot actually say 'well the fault isnt CCPs' the ship should be replaced, there and then. ________________
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Naomi Wildfire
Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:08:00 -
[10]
I lost a BS a year ago due to extreme lag all over the universe. Shortly after i lost it to a lev 4 mission (repper and hardener were unable to activate) CCP shut down the whole server and some time later, it rebootet. I thought that a petition in this case cant fail, but i was wrong.
"Nothing in our Logs"
I asked them why they had to shut down the server when there was absolutely nothing. But all i got was a:
"We can understand your worries. But we are sorry, there's nothing in our logs"
An other friend lost a carrier to a bug, where he was in docking range, but actually were not able to dock. He mailed them his logs, screens, everything he had and he was absolutely right. ... you know what followed except his grey hairs.
When you think, a petition can't fail, you dont know CCP.
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Faife
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:09:00 -
[11]
de-syncs don't warrant reimbursement. have a nice day, please drive through.
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Aneu Angellus
Rubra Libertas Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Faife de-syncs don't warrant reimbursement. have a nice day, please drive through.
Even though CCP have admited that de-sync is due to their servers... hmmm... Do people know what customer support actually means? The fact people roll over and show their bellies to this kind of statement is sickening to me... ________________
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Tortun Nahme
Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:23:00 -
[13]
De-sync has to do with your connection to the server, not the server itself, it is due to packet loss and thus is not a bug nor is it server related, CCP has never claimed otherwise so please take your ignorance and choke yourself with it Have a nice day!
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Aneu Angellus
Rubra Libertas Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:24:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Aneu Angellus on 21/06/2008 17:25:37
Originally by: Tortun Nahme De-sync has to do with your connection to the server, not the server itself, it is due to packet loss and thus is not a bug nor is it server related, CCP has never claimed otherwise so please take your ignorance and choke yourself with it Have a nice day!
Yes, ofcorse, thats how its been in the game since day one...(it actually didnt start until they patched) our connection, not CCP's programming...(or releasing of a dodgy patch) even though they 'fixed' it... i would love to understand how you have come to this conclusion.
edit- just to clarify ________________
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Tortun Nahme
Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:30:00 -
[15]
understanding of network and internet architecture?
Desync is a time out, the same as every other network app, it happens when the server and client cease to communicate because of missing information, said information was sent from both sides but not recieved, the trouble lying somewhere along the backbone "between" the server and client, which is not owned or run by CCP. The most common case is the end users ISP, regardless of how good they "claim" it is, whether out of ignorance, arrogance, or stupidity. However the problem can often lie with the ISP that provides service to CCP, or any of the many connections in between.
To put in simpiler terms for you, since you seem to be ignorant, either through design or natural causes
The Sewer and my toilet both work perfectly, however, the pipes in between are clogged, shall I blame the sewer for the mess? or the toilet? because neither caused the problem.
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:30:00 -
[16]
I agree. Ive been party to several situations where two people lost their ships at the same time same circumstances (e.g. a gang goes down from lag), one got ship back other didnt. If they actually gave some sort of snippet from the log indicating precisely why they feel theres no reason to reimburse, there would probably be a lot less griping and random accusations of unfairness going around. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Asestorian
Domination. Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:38:00 -
[17]
Desyncs cannot be detected by CCP, which is why they have had so many problems fixing the problem. If they cannot be detected, then they cannot be reimbursed anyway. Therefore, it is simply common sense to make it policy that desync, whether or not it actually occurred, is not a valid reason for reimbursement.
Lag is another issue. I believe CCP decided that lag in fleet battles would no longer be a valid issue. They figured that lag was a risk people knowingly took when entering large battles. Consistency meant that anyone reimbursed for lag in that fight meant that everyone else had to be as well, rendering the entire fight pointless. More practical problems existed, however, in that not everyone seemed to be being reimbursed equally, as different GMs had different ideas about what counted, leading to charges of favouritism, although whether this was true or not I cannot say.
After this, I believe they may have decided that banning lag reimbursements from fleet fights but not in anything else was confusing and less consistent, so again they simply banned it outright and counted it as a known potential risk in playing the game that all players accept when they log in.
Bugs and less easily defined issues with the server are valid issues for reimbursement. However, using client-side proof, be it screenshots or anything else, is not permitted and will be ignored.
Reimbursements are a difficult subject overall. GMs cannot just reimburse without reason. It would cause chaos in the economy and that sort of thing if ships were never truly lost because they were always reimbursed, as well as creating extra work for the GMs.
Personally I think that the GMs do a good job overall, and that CCPs policy on lag and desyncs makes sense for the moment. Reimbursements will always remain a touchy subject because of what they are, but I think it could be made a little better by improvements on information in their standard rejection replies. Saying "the logs show nothing" may be true, but it seems uncaring to the petitioner. Saying instead "Lag/Desync is not currently a valid issue for reimbursement, as read in the reimbursement rules, and subsequently we cannot help in this matter. There were no other issues detected in our logs that would call for a reimbursement. Sorry for your loss. Regards, GM Awesomeman." would help a little I think.
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Quote: EVE is unfair by design.
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Tortun Nahme
Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:41:00 -
[18]
better yet, no reimbursement period, thats what insurance is for
EvE is a harsh world, stop going easy on these whiners!
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Tommy Reslin
Crescent Moon Volunteer Squadron
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme understanding of network and internet architecture?
Desync is a time out, the same as every other network app, it happens when the server and client cease to communicate because of missing information, said information was sent from both sides but not recieved, the trouble lying somewhere along the backbone "between" the server and client, which is not owned or run by CCP. The most common case is the end users ISP, regardless of how good they "claim" it is, whether out of ignorance, arrogance, or stupidity. However the problem can often lie with the ISP that provides service to CCP, or any of the many connections in between.
To put in simpiler terms for you, since you seem to be ignorant, either through design or natural causes
The Sewer and my toilet both work perfectly, however, the pipes in between are clogged, shall I blame the sewer for the mess? or the toilet? because neither caused the problem.
I admit that I don't know a lot of computers. I'm not making this post out of arrogance nor have I experienced the problems the person arguing with you has. Just out of curiosity why this can't possibly be the case. In Diablo 2 there's something people call "De-sync paladins." If you've ever played the game you might know what this is.
A Desync paladin is one that's able to move in a way that the server can not keep up with the character itself. Therefore it can't properly transfer the information it has to your client. What this results in? The player of the paladin experiences no "lag", infact, he doesn't look like he desyncs at all. To him he's just approaching the other player really quickly.
The other player, on the other hand, is experiencing the game fine. The npcs/other plays are moving normally but suddenly the said paladin pops out of nowhere almost as if he teleported. Kills the said character and then vanishes again. I haven't played diablo 2 in ages but I believe this is caused by the paladin stacking charms or gear that make them move quicker.
My question is, can it be possible that if CCP patched something it could have messed up? Something causes something else to occur that when this occurence happens the server cannot transfer the proper information back from the client? If this is the case wouldn't it be CCP's fault? Thanks for answering the question.
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Asestorian
Domination. Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:49:00 -
[20]
Desync has existed in EVE since time began. At a certain point, primarily when Supercapitals became more common, it was noticed a lot more. Whether it was actually worse or not I don't know. It was thought to be caused by "bumping", although I can't imagine that the speed of the bump is what caused it like your "Desync Paladin" example. However, movement was clearly an issue, and occurred most often when Supercapitals were involved, especially when there were many drones around.
I don't know if it's fixed entirely, but the lack of complaints certainly suggests that it has been improved.
---
Quote: EVE is unfair by design.
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Tortun Nahme
Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.21 17:53:00 -
[21]
same term, different cause, but a similar effect and a valid question.
what happens in that case is that the pally (oops gave away something i shouldn't there) has goen from point a to point b so quickly, his PC has represented it to him in real time, but the packets going to the server and back to him and the otherp layer are moving slower than what his own pc can process
so the server recieves the information, sends it to bothp layers, and suddenly out of nowhere you see someone pop up and kill you
yes, the players are not synced up, but the cause in this case is older netcode, and lets just say the diablo 2 netcode is nowhere near as efficient as the EvE source. It's older, and was never really meant for pvp
It's a similar effect to those that hack for speed on FPS games, they appear to "glitch" around the map because they are moving so fast, and people are only getting snippets of the updates from one moment to the next
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Zetjur Jilnou
Rapid Deployment Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:05:00 -
[22]
I still find it funny that people still petition for client side problems.
If it's a client side problem, how can the server prove it? It can't be proven, can it?
Should CCP reimburse for issues they can't verify? No, they shouldn't. People will just then petition everything and get everything they want back.
Damn, it's almost as if they are doing the right thing.
Also, lol @ op for thinking ccp should reimburse unverifiable issues. You are terrible at trolling.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:29:00 -
[23]
As it was stated several time "Our log show nothing" means "Our logs show no bug or problems on our side of the game". If some of your issues are dependent from bad connection, overcrowding of a system, disconnections, other programs interfering with EVE, ecc. , that is no cause for a ship reinboursement.
That lag is not reason for ship reimbursement is explicitly stated in the rules of the game.
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou I still find it funny that people still petition for client side problems.
If it's a client side problem, how can the server prove it? It can't be proven, can it?
Should CCP reimburse for issues they can't verify? No, they shouldn't. People will just then petition everything and get everything they want back.
Well for a while they were reimbursing for disconnect/ISP issues, with the justification that since its not the players fault their ISP hates them, they shouldnt be penalized. IIRC I got an ishkur back this way once. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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RigelKentaurus
Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Asestorian I don't know if it's fixed entirely, but the lack of complaints certainly suggests that it has been improved.
It still exists and I sometimes see that in missions. And it still appears to be due to the different bumping calculations between the client and the server. Those desyncs are less significant than they used to be. _________
Someday, EVE may look like this. |
Aneu Angellus
Rubra Libertas Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:35:00 -
[26]
Anyway, can we please get back onto the topic? Customer service... or lack thereof. ________________
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An Anarchyyt
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:38:00 -
[27]
You really are a one trick pony, aren't you?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
Originally by: Asestorian The issues people have is because they don't understand what is a reimbursable event or not. Lag, desyncs and that sort of thing don't get reimbursed. It would be nice if their standard response was clearer in this though.
People should read the rules for reimbursement before they get so agitated about this sort of thing.
Then a good customer service department head would change those rules. The desync issue is a CCP one not a customer computer related one... hence their problem, hence they should reimburse it... There are no ifs buts whens why's or who's about it... if it falls within CCP's remit, either server issues (not through ISP) desync, bug or anything of the like, even if it isnt 100% proven by a log, the customer should get their item back, no questions asked.
Sure, some people will attempt to get ships back saying 'oh but i desynced, or i lagged, or this that the other' but with competent log reading you can see what module the person last activated on the person, the time it was done down to the second and when they died, if they didnt activate a module throughout the entire fight, my CS experiance would say its genuine and i would give their ship back, quite simple really...
I.e. a GM should spend 2 days reading the log to verify if a person are reasons to ask for a reimbursement. NO
BTW: most desyinc is generated by the connection as it is originated by packet loss, not by the server.
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Menod Penter
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:47:00 -
[29]
There are no logs. There is no lag. There are no Goons.
Have a Nice Day :) Menod Penter - Mayor of Rens
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Reem Fairchild
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.21 18:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
Originally by: Faife de-syncs don't warrant reimbursement. have a nice day, please drive through.
Even though CCP have admited that de-sync is due to their servers... hmmm... Do people know what customer support actually means? The fact people roll over and show their bellies to this kind of statement is sickening to me...
They don't actually have an obligation to reimburse any losses, regardless of the reason. Be grateful that they do reimburse losses caused by bugs in the first place.
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