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Miko Draco
Draco Research and Development Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.12 08:36:00 -
[1]
Dear CCP,
My Corp has invested in multiple tech2 ammo BPOs over the last few months, for the purpose of copying and thus mass production, specifically tech2 heavy missile/cruise and torpedoes.
Before the Empyrean Age patch - we could copy 7x 100 run tech2 Heavy missile prints (at POS) a month and thus essentially increasing the ammont we could manufacture.
We have only just started this as our prints have been in for research for months!
Since the Empyrean Age Patch, copy time per run is now over DOUBLE the manufacturing time! thus making it utterly useless to copy from.
We have invested large ammounts of isk into this tech2 production venture, based on the copy time vs production time and only for the copy times be altered and without the change even listed in the the patch notes!
Is this intentional? or a bug with the latest patch? (please fix!!! )
Anyone else have this issue?
Regards,
Miko Draco |
Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.12 08:48:00 -
[2]
Tech 2 bpo(s) have always had a copy-time that is twice the production time. (ok actually the first month of tech2 bpos they had low copy time) Once in a while they have released a type of tech2 bpo in which they had set the copy time wrongly - 10mn AB II bpo comes to mind (this has been corrected years ago).
With this in mind I find it amazing that you did not see the copy time on amo bpo(s) as a bug - it clearly was a bug, that now have been fixed. I find it even more amazing that you would invest multi-bisks and build your entire business around a bug.
The short answer is: yes it is intentional, its a bug-fix that was not mentioned in the patch notes except under "various exploits fixed" ;-)
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Miko Draco
Draco Research and Development Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.12 08:59:00 -
[3]
Well the reason why i bring this up, is i have had these BPOs for approx 5 months, so it is not like the "bug" has been around only for a few days.
if one is only starting to get into tech2 production recently, how else would an individual know that months pre Empyrean Age Patch was the bug???
however i do thank you for the info, i just dont think it is fair... |
Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.12 11:01:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Miko Draco Well the reason why i bring this up, is i have had these BPOs for approx 5 months, so it is not like the "bug" has been around only for a few days.
that is very normal of EVE - I would even say that getting a bug fixed in less than 6months is fast... The bugs that annoy me the most have been there for years :-(
Originally by: Miko Draco if one is only starting to get into tech2 production recently, how else would an individual know that months pre Empyrean Age Patch was the bug???
Yes that is unfortunate, however again it is very eve-like - Eve is known for having a steep learning curve this is one of the reasons.
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Lord Fitz
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 11:08:00 -
[5]
All other T2 BPOs are like this, it was obvious ammo copy times were a bug, it was fixed. Think of it this way, with less ammo being made the profitability may enter the postitive relm again, because it certainly wasn't profitable to make them before, if you could make twice as many or not.
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Shgoratchx
Shgoratchx Transorbital
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Posted - 2008.06.12 11:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lord Fitz Think of it this way, with less ammo being made the profitability may enter the postitive relm again, because it certainly wasn't profitable to make them before, if you could make twice as many or not.
I hope so. T2 ammo manufacturing for profit has been fubared since the day they were introduced, hopefully this fix will help in some way, but the main problem is faction ammo basically makes T2 ammo obsolete for all but a dedicated few. Faction ammo needs a nerf or T2 ammo needs a boost. |
Miko Draco
Draco Research and Development Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Shgoratchx I hope so. T2 ammo manufacturing for profit has been fubared since the day they were introduced, hopefully this fix will help in some way, but the main problem is faction ammo basically makes T2 ammo obsolete for all but a dedicated few. Faction ammo needs a nerf or T2 ammo needs a boost.
Theres only a marginal damage difference comparing fury & faction, but tech2 ammo has drawbacks (capacitor & range) whereas there isnt a drawback on faction ammo!
I would go for a slight damage boost on tech2 ammo and remove the range penalty alltogether - the whole reason we started getting into production, is a few of us use the t2 heavies but seriously, in PvP - most people use faction ammo...
Re the BPO copy issue, whats the point of actually having the option to copy a T2 BPO when it takes longer to copy than to just build?
My last 2c for the night...
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RaTTuS
BIG
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:44:00 -
[8]
Copies are useful if you want to build stuff where you don't want to take your bpo/... -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve,
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.12 18:36:00 -
[9]
The change in T2 Ammunition copy time, making it lower than production time, has been introduced in December '07 I think. I noticed it very late and petitioned it to be sure it wasn't an exploit to do the copy (thinking it was a bug). The reply was that the bug had been corrected and using the copies wasn't an exploit, even if the copy time was still low.
So, apparently, the bug was corrected only on CCP internal server and the fix deployed with this patch. This time I noticed the change the first day and canceled/changed my sell orders.
Reducing the copy time reduced the cost of the Barrage from 800+ to 280-380, so I suppose that in a brief time it will return there and the other T2 decent ammunitions will do the same. The not so good T2 ammunitions will stay at too low prices as before.
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Tergiminius
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Posted - 2008.06.12 22:18:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tergiminius on 12/06/2008 22:22:48 Actually copy time now is around 10x longer than when it was reduced in Dec 07 in the last expansion. I checked today and a 100run scorch would be 85 days but last time I did it it was 8 1/2 days.
Not all ammo bpo's were affected, crystals definately were, as Void L still is the 3 hours 10mins.
However, the prices won't rise back up again much due to this as the bonus given at the time doesn't compete with the bonus they also made at the very same patch to invention by making the number of runs 10 instead of 1. Prior to that expansion invented laser ammo bpcs were 1run base and now they're 10.
So we're now in a situation whereby the t2 ammo bpo has gone back to pre 07 copy times but the invented ammo is still 10 runs (40 crystals) base not the original 4.
I'd personally like to see the copy times stay as they are and reduce the invented back down to 1 base or reduce the copying again, I felt the copying bonus was a balance for the big increase they made to invention. |
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Somatic Neuron
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Posted - 2008.06.13 09:02:00 -
[11]
Was this change in the patch notes? If not, it probably was a bug that was reintroduced because of the development paths that the Devs use...or, they just think that there is enough T2 Ammo out there, and didn't think we would notice a stealth nerf. |
Siigari Kitawa
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.06.13 10:03:00 -
[12]
I can confirm this, copy time seems to have doubled. We used to be able to run 10 copies per production cycle, now we can only run 5.
Blueprint in question is Null L.
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Lord Fitz
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 11:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tergiminius Actually copy time now is around 10x longer than when it was reduced in Dec 07 in the last expansion. I checked today and a 100run scorch would be 85 days but last time I did it it was 8 1/2 days.
However, the prices won't rise back up again much due to this as the bonus given at the time doesn't compete with the bonus they also made at the very same patch to invention by making the number of runs 10 instead of 1. Prior to that expansion invented laser ammo bpcs were 1run base and now they're 10.
The invented base runs is T2 Production Limit / 10. So if they increased the T2 Production limit by 10x, the copy time would go up 10x and the number of invented runs would go up 10x. I think you have just found the reason both these things happened at the same time. Previously you were getting 8 1/2 days for 10 runs, now it's 85 days for 100 runs etc.
Obviously also they increased the copy times back to what they were per run.
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Tergiminius
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Posted - 2008.06.13 14:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Tergiminius on 13/06/2008 14:33:12 Erm nope, from Dec 07 to this expansion I was getting 8 1/2 days per 100 run, now it's 85 days per 100 run as it was before the Dec 07 ish expansion. It was only since the Dec 07 expansion that the copy times dropped so much, before then it was the 8 1/2 days for 10 and like most people then it wasn't worth copying.
I'm not complaining much as over 2/3 my ammo came from invention anyhow but they should have at least told people like the OP who invested a lot of isk in this, maybe at the Dec 07 update tell everyone it's a bug and not to use it ? It did after all get petitioned enough. |
RaTTuS
BIG
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Posted - 2008.06.13 14:34:00 -
[15]
Max run Large T2 ammo (Hail L) takes 138days in a lab with no implants |
Dr Totenkopf
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Posted - 2008.06.13 14:52:00 -
[16]
so, will the other remaining BPOs (with the short copy time) be "nerfed" too or will the "nerfed" BPOs have again shorter copy time?
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Miko Draco Well the reason why i bring this up, is i have had these BPOs for approx 5 months, so it is not like the "bug" has been around only for a few days.
What does the 5 months have to do with anything? Is there some time after which a bug should not be fixed? What time frame is that? |
DocDoo
BIG
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:23:00 -
[18]
what are the other short time copy ones then ? |
Dr Totenkopf
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: DocDoo what are the other short time copy ones then ?
Hybrid Ammo |
DocDoo
BIG
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Posted - 2008.06.13 15:53:00 -
[20]
Oh I see...
Null (L) copy time 2W4D12H26 Void (L) copy time 2W4D12H26
Hail (L) copy time 26W3D4H20
umm time for a BR then |
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Miko Draco
Draco Research and Development Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:33:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Miko Draco on 13/06/2008 16:34:24
Originally by: War Fairy
Originally by: Miko Draco Well the reason why i bring this up, is i have had these BPOs for approx 5 months, so it is not like the "bug" has been around only for a few days.
What does the 5 months have to do with anything? Is there some time after which a bug should not be fixed? What time frame is that?
That was in response to the post prior to it - that i was expected to somehow know that it was a bug:
Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos With this in mind I find it amazing that you did not see the copy time on amo bpo(s) as a bug - it clearly was a bug
How is anyone supposed to know that the copy times were a bug when there is nothing to compare with???
Anyone with half a mind would take a Print on face value, do the math and realise that - "hey if we copied these, then manufactured from the copies, we could produce more than just manufacturing of the origional alone!"
Considering with invention, its not hard to invent ALOT of 10 run BPC's for next to nothing, and having copying a BPO to compete with invention, to me, just made sense...
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.06.13 19:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shgoratchx
Originally by: Lord Fitz Think of it this way, with less ammo being made the profitability may enter the postitive relm again, because it certainly wasn't profitable to make them before, if you could make twice as many or not.
I hope so. T2 ammo manufacturing for profit has been fubared since the day they were introduced, hopefully this fix will help in some way, but the main problem is faction ammo basically makes T2 ammo obsolete for all but a dedicated few. Faction ammo needs a nerf or T2 ammo needs a boost.
I wonder how much the T2 BPOs sell for then? I would love to have some if they were not several billion ISK each.. (I make several types of nearly unsellable ammo just for completeness)
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Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Miko Draco
(snip)
How is anyone supposed to know that the copy times were a bug when there is nothing to compare with???
Anyone with half a mind would take a Print on face value, do the math and realise that - "hey if we copied these, then manufactured from the copies, we could produce more than just manufacturing of the origional alone!"
Considering with invention, its not hard to invent ALOT of 10 run BPC's for next to nothing, and having copying a BPO to compete with invention, to me, just made sense...
It was obviously a bug, and quite simple to infer it for anyone with half a brain.
T2 bpos are a limited resource. As such the copy times in almost all of them is considerably higher than the production time to keep them limited. Any T2 bpo that deviates from this standard is obviously bugged and in need of fixing.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Lord Fitz
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.14 20:01:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 14/06/2008 20:05:06
Originally by: Miko Draco How is anyone supposed to know that the copy times were a bug when there is nothing to compare with???
When T2 BPOs were first introduced, people balked at them having longer copy times than build times. CCP designed it this way so that the BPO owners simply couldn't print the BPCs and have it as an instant isk maker, in order to get the isk they actually have to BUILD from the BPO. 6 months ago this changed, for ammo only, at the same time they were messing with invention, introducing new advanced labs etc. This was a bug, and for 6 months to fix a bug, that is FAST. I still have an invention implant in my head that does NOTHING after over a year.
You have to look at the effect this will have, for much of the T2 ammo the price is less than 1% from the build cost. When the supply gets reduced, and the demand doesn't you will likely make the same profit with less need for build slots and labs etc etc.
That CCP didn't come out and say this is a bug and we'll fix it, this happens all the time, even when they do promise to fix something broken it can take well over a year. And this was only something fairly simple.
It's not a 'good' way that you were supposed to know, but communication of such things is not CCP's strong point unless you've been around a while there are some things you might not know.
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Siigari Kitawa
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.06.15 05:02:00 -
[25]
Wait a sec, what? The copy time is the Research Copy Time (You Per Single Copy)
NOT Research Copy Time. :|
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.15 10:02:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Wait a sec, what? The copy time is the Research Copy Time (You Per Single Copy)
NOT Research Copy Time. :|
Exactly, the difference is very large, but the final time is still well above build time:
Barrage M BPO: copy time: 13 weeks 1 day 14 hours 33 minutes; you 16 hours 40 minutes manufacturing time 9 hours 8 minutes (PE8) you 7 hours 18 minutes
That make copying the BPO, even in a POS lab, totally counterproductive.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.06.15 11:09:00 -
[27]
The single-run copy time for all T2 BPOs except some of the T2 ammo was always longer than the manufacture time of a single batch. Apparently, CCP decided it's time to align the T2 ammo BPO copy time to the rest of the T2 BPOs. You can look at it this way : it was a bug, and it took them so long to finally fix it, while T2 ammo BPO owners kept manufacturing at over 10 times the rate they were "supposed" to be able to, making invention of that ammo pointless.
Heck, until Siigari Kitawa pointed out (via proxy) the fact T2 ammo copy time was far below manufacture time, I wasn't even aware any such T2 BPOs existed in the first place... yes, it used to be one of your main sources of income, now it's seriously reduced in value. I find it unpleasant for it to have happened so "stealthily" (not even in patch notes AFAIK), but it was bound to eventually go down like this.
_
Vote on issue of mineral and moon material balance ! |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 15/06/2008 11:20:13
The single-run copy time for all T2 BPOs except some of the T2 ammo was always longer than the manufacture time of a single batch. Apparently, CCP decided it's time to align the T2 ammo BPO copy time to the rest of the T2 BPOs. You can look at it this way : it was a bug, and it took them so long to finally fix it, while T2 ammo BPO owners kept manufacturing at over 10 times the rate they were "supposed" to be able to, making invention of that ammo pointless.
Heck, until Siigari Kitawa pointed out (via proxy) the fact T2 ammo copy time was far below manufacture time, I wasn't even aware any such T2 BPOs existed in the first place... yes, it used to be one of your main sources of income, now it's seriously reduced in value. I find it unpleasant for it to have happened so "stealthily" (not even in patch notes AFAIK), but it was bound to eventually go down like this.
Heck, it's not even as bad yet... you can still run 5 batches at once on Null L, you used to be able to run 10 batches. When you'll not even be able to run a SINGLE batch via copy, then finally you'd have reached the point the rest of the T2 BPOs are right now. So, nah, it's not THAT tragic... yet.
What I find strange is that the change is not constant. In the December patch some ammunition were moved from copy time > to production time to copy time 1/6 of production time, other to 1/10, now some ammunition is again above production time, while some have moved to a 1/5 copy time/production time proportion.
It is hard to fhatom what is the reasoning behing those changes.
Sadly undocumented changes in modules and other items are becoming common (like the changes to faction shield boosters).
CCP should look at his internal communication system. It seem that some dev aren't speaking to others about the changes.
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easei
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.17 22:29:00 -
[29]
I'm thinking that a lot of the BPO owners knew this was going to happen since within the past weeks leading up to the patch everyone seemed to be selling their ammo BPO's (and now even more so). As a buyer you probably want to know why someone would sell a t2 BPO if it's still making isk.
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Lady Natacha
Water and Power
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Posted - 2008.06.18 01:15:00 -
[30]
Originally by: easei I'm thinking that a lot of the BPO owners knew this was going to happen since within the past weeks leading up to the patch everyone seemed to be selling their ammo BPO's (and now even more so).
Agreed, my anecdotal observations would seem to concur with this.
My EVE sigs
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