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Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:07:00 - [61] Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 00:03:03 Originally by: Windjammer The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort. But they're not like any other skill training in EVE. That's why there's so much controversy. Train gunnery, and you have an advantage. Train learning, and you have a learning AND gunnery advantage! The only time learning isn't the best decision is when you plan to quit soon and want to get one particular skill or set of skills by a certain date. That means that in order to decide whether learning skills are a good idea, you have to decide when you're going to quit EVE! Why is forcing people to set their quitting date a good thing? What does it add to the game? For someone who wants to decide whether they like EVE, it just discourages them and makes them likely to give up. They can train some combat skills and have fun, but they end up being penalized for it since they didn't spend that time training learning skills. Why are you penalizing new players for trying the game out? It is the fault of older players that mandate the training of learning skills that newbies are turned off. Not the fault of the system itself. Players getting a feel for the game shouldn't bother with learning skills and if they are subjected by vets and listen to them they are being too impressionable rather than assessing the situation themselves. If a vet told you to jump off a bridge...
Strill	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:17:00 - [62] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 00:03:03 Originally by: Windjammer The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort. But they're not like any other skill training in EVE. That's why there's so much controversy. Train gunnery, and you have an advantage. Train learning, and you have a learning AND gunnery advantage! The only time learning isn't the best decision is when you plan to quit soon and want to get one particular skill or set of skills by a certain date. That means that in order to decide whether learning skills are a good idea, you have to decide when you're going to quit EVE! Why is forcing people to set their quitting date a good thing? What does it add to the game? For someone who wants to decide whether they like EVE, it just discourages them and makes them likely to give up. They can train some combat skills and have fun, but they end up being penalized for it since they didn't spend that time training learning skills. Why are you penalizing new players for trying the game out? It is the fault of older players that mandate the training of learning skills that newbies are turned off. Not the fault of the system itself. Players getting a feel for the game shouldn't bother with learning skills and if they are subjected by vets and listen to them they are being too impressionable rather than assessing the situation themselves. If a vet told you to jump off a bridge... Lol? So then you're proposing that new players should remain ignorant of the fact that they're being punished so it won't bother them? C'mon that's just stupid. That's like saying it's ok for a noob to jump off a bridge so long as they remain blissfully ignorant of the consequences. The fact is that training learning skills is ALWAYS the best strategy in the long run, and by "choosing" not to train learning skills, you're doing nothing but penalizing yourself. Of course a noob who learns that this is going to be upset. It's the system that causes the problem, not the noob's awareness of the system. You might as well say we should destroy all documentation of the combat system's mechanics so that way people will be blissfully ignorant of how good or bad their weapons are, and we can all be happy using crummy fits and blaming our losses on luck.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.10 15:17:00 - [63] Originally by: Strill Originally by: Fahtim Meidires Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 00:03:03 Originally by: Windjammer The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort. But they're not like any other skill training in EVE. That's why there's so much controversy. Train gunnery, and you have an advantage. Train learning, and you have a learning AND gunnery advantage! The only time learning isn't the best decision is when you plan to quit soon and want to get one particular skill or set of skills by a certain date. That means that in order to decide whether learning skills are a good idea, you have to decide when you're going to quit EVE! Why is forcing people to set their quitting date a good thing? What does it add to the game? For someone who wants to decide whether they like EVE, it just discourages them and makes them likely to give up. They can train some combat skills and have fun, but they end up being penalized for it since they didn't spend that time training learning skills. Why are you penalizing new players for trying the game out? It is the fault of older players that mandate the training of learning skills that newbies are turned off. Not the fault of the system itself. Players getting a feel for the game shouldn't bother with learning skills and if they are subjected by vets and listen to them they are being too impressionable rather than assessing the situation themselves. If a vet told you to jump off a bridge... The fact is that training learning skills is ALWAYS the best strategy in the long run, and by "choosing" not to train learning skills, you're doing nothing but penalizing yourself. Of course a noob who learns that this is going to be upset. It's the system that causes the problem, not the noob's awareness of the system. But it's not as simple yes train them or no don't train them. It is up to the player exactly how far they want to take their learning skills at different stages of their character's life. Should they train them all at once? Should they space them out with their other skills so it's not so boring? Should they wait until Frigate V to train up all of their perception and Engineering V for intelligence because most of the gains will be seen on these chunks of skills anyway? It's an important sandbox feature that in essence gives players a chance to be proactive or procrastinate depending on their play style and personality.
Strill	Posted - 2008.08.10 23:00:00 - [64] Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 23:01:28 Quote: Should they train them all at once? Yes. They get more points. Period. They are better off by training them all at once. Quote: Should they space them out with their other skills so it's not so boring? And here you hit the nail on the head. Why have skills that are boring? None of the other skills are boring. Why is boredom even a factor in how much you as a player are rewarded, especially from the very beginning? It makes no sense from a game design perspective. If I'm a new player I want to jump into all the game's features, but then I find out that I lose out on the game's most important resource if I don't spend at least half a month boring myself out of my mind how does that hook me into the game? Quote: Should they wait until Frigate V to train up all of their perception and Engineering V for intelligence because most of the gains will be seen on these chunks of skills anyway? The longer they wait the more skill points they lose. I'm afraid I can't come up with any Boredom utility to Skill Point utility ratios, so I can't apply any economic ideas to it. Quote: It's an important sandbox feature that in essence gives players a chance to be proactive or procrastinate depending on their play style and personality. So you want the game to be "Work And Responsiblity Online"?
Baaldor Caldari Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.10 23:17:00 - [65] So Strill, All I have seen from you is whining. Have not seen one reasonable suggestion of any kind. It is obvious you have no clue what you are talking about and you are whining because its toooo hard. No one is making you train shit. I did not train my learning skills till' at least a month or two in the game. At that point I made the decision to stay with the game. Then I started training the skills to help me along. And at that time you had to level out at 5 before you could train the advanced set.
Strill	Posted - 2008.08.11 00:21:00 - [66] Edited by: Strill on 11/08/2008 00:23:03 Originally by: Baaldor So Strill, All I have seen from you is whining. Have not seen one reasonable suggestion of any kind. I would think the most obvious solution would be to give everyone the equivalent of having rank 5 in all the learning skills, remove the learning skills themselves, and refund any skill points anyone has spent in the learning skills. Personally I'd think it would probably be better to give everyone a bit less than the equivalent of rank 5, but that would be unfair to the people who trained them to rank 5. Quote: It is obvious you have no clue what you are talking about and you are whining because its toooo hard. I've already trained my learning skills to 5/4, and it was completely pointless that I would have to do that just to keep from being penalized. Even if I hadn't it's not like my idea could be implemented soon enough that I wouldn't still have to train them. Quote: No one is making you train shit. I did not train my learning skills till' at least a month or two in the game. At that point I made the decision to stay with the game. Then I started training the skills to help me along. The game is making you train them. If you don't you get penalized with fewer SP.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.11 00:59:00 - [67] Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 23:01:28 Quote: Should they train them all at once? Yes. They get more points. Period. They are better off by training them all at once. Only marginally compared to proper training. Take this example: Skill plan for Imishra Na 1. Weapon Upgrades I (27 minutes, 13 seconds) 2. Instant Recall I (30 minutes, 38 seconds) 3. Analytical Mind I (27 minutes, 13 seconds) 4. Weapon Upgrades II (2 hours, 3 minutes, 25 seconds) 5. Instant Recall II (2 hours, 13 seconds) 6. Learning II (1 hour, 48 minutes, 46 seconds) 7. Weapon Upgrades III (11 hours, 6 minutes, 32 seconds) 8. Instant Recall III (10 hours, 3 minutes, 1 second) 9. Spatial Awareness III (9 hours, 10 minutes, 35 seconds) 10. Weapon Upgrades IV (2 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes, 50 seconds) 11. Weapon Upgrades V (13 days, 17 hours, 29 minutes, 41 seconds) Total time: 17 days, 17 hours, 22 minutes, 13 seconds -or all in the beginning- Skill plan for Imishra Na 1. Instant Recall I (30 minutes, 38 seconds) 2. Analytical Mind I (27 minutes, 13 seconds) 3. Instant Recall II (2 hours, 13 seconds) 4. Learning II (1 hour, 48 minutes, 46 seconds) 5. Instant Recall III (10 hours, 3 minutes, 1 second) 6. Spatial Awareness III (9 hours, 10 minutes, 35 seconds) 7. Weapon Upgrades I (23 minutes, 27 seconds) 8. Weapon Upgrades II (1 hour, 49 minutes, 14 seconds) 9. Weapon Upgrades III (10 hours, 17 minutes, 46 seconds) 10. Weapon Upgrades IV (2 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes, 50 seconds) 11. Weapon Upgrades V (13 days, 17 hours, 29 minutes, 41 seconds) Total time: 17 days, 16 hours, 15 minutes, 29 seconds A difference of ONE HOUR when properly spread out, yet in the first instance where proper planning was used the player gets weapon upgrades II in the first 3 hours as opposed to blindly grinding through like he was told.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.11 01:01:00 - [68] Originally by: Strill Quote: Should they space them out with their other skills so it's not so boring? And here you hit the nail on the head. Why have skills that are boring? None of the other skills are boring. ALL of the skills are boring. It's a timer. See my above post on how any player with half a brain in planning can make it less of a grind. New players who are capable of this simple task should be rewarded.
padraig animal Minmatar The Artisan Collective	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:16:00 - [69] Nice example tho it depends on how your atributes are . or every 1 thats diffrent ,there are some topics how to create the best balanced char . For those who are already for a long time running know for themself if it was worth it or not. Tho evenmon give you the option like showed above so it free you don't have to train them like said manny times in here. If ccp removes them ok but doub't it coz 99% of the ppl who trained them want compensation than incl me
JackBear Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:31:00 - [70] Removing learning skills is a FAIL idea in my opinion. Its all part of the game balance. Would you also suggest that CCCP do away with attribute implants? I believe attribute points help balance the game. Not every character should have the same because each character is created with a different purpose in mind.

nartela	Posted - 2008.08.14 19:01:00 - [71] i got my learning skills up and it took nothing from the game for me, i wouldnt train them up to 5 but ive got most of them at 3 and 4 the only 5 i have is the one hat take ten percent off. anyway what i did was wait until i had to get a skill to level 5 such as iteron v,, the time it took was 39 days by training my learning skills i managed to get it to 30. thats what you do its kinda like training multiple skills at once.
RoCkEt X Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.08.31 15:13:00 - [72] i'm what you would call a 'vet' as in veteran, yes, i tell the newer guys that yes, you should train learning skills. first, get a cruiser, and medium sized weapons, and drones lvl 3-4 so u can use them. then, train learning skills to basic 4, advanced 3, and the learning skill it self to lvl 4. then get a BC, and t2 tanking gear, and send ur weapon skills to level 3-4. train ur advanced learning skills to lvl 4 when this is done. at this point your learning skills are trained to a satisfactory level. now you can either get t2 weapons, and improve your general skills (electronics, drones, ewar. etc.) this means that you progress, so you dont get bored. you train faster, which makes you happier with the progression of your character. its not the fastest way, but its the best way for someone who is new to start playing. i.e. - THEY DONT QUIT DUE TO BOREDOM. AND THEY DONT KICK THEMSELVES LATER FOR LEAVING IT TOO LONG. i've worked with alot of my friends and corpmates, even used evemon to draw up skill plans to help them. they are happily training along, deviating from the plan if for example, they need more cpu to online the last launcher on thier drake, they'll take a few days out for another weapon upgrades/electronics level. the system is fine. dont fix somethin that aint broken.
Xultanis	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:15:00 - [73] I don't even know why people are even suggesting this......wait yes I do. Its because they are **ed that they aren't training as fast as everyone else because they don't want to put the time into training their learning skills so instead of having them do it they want everyone else to train just as fast as they do for fear of someone who started earlier getting further then they are. You all are just babies. Everything in EvE is a choice that you have to live with. Why do you want to change a game that finally does what most of the hardcore community wanted?? We have a choice to do what we want. This isn't noobfest USA. EvE isn't for the light hearted. Yes we have our occassion noob here and their but do you really want this game to turn into another WoW? Where instead of people having intellectual debates like we are here, we end up with "first" "noob" "flame war" "suck my **" all that dumb nonsense. Learning skills are not a waste of time nor were they a bad idea. If ccp thinks that then I feel bad for them. Like anything in this game if you want something you have to put the time into training it. Shit you don't even have to train the long skills since you just do it at the end of your subscription and just come back when its done. I hope they don't change that either because I don't think I would play this game if I had to train something for 2months. If new players are complaining about it then they should just shut up. This game isn't for everyone and is especially not for the noobs that play WoW, however for some reason you want to turn it into that. I have put the time into training my Learning skills. If they are removed and everyone gets a base set of 5 then why? Why should people be allowed to recieve something that most people had to train a couple of months for? You know what this is all probably about? You probably look at your skills wishing them to go faster, but then when you look at your learning skills, you don't want to train those "just" to make something go faster. So its not a sense of it being mandatory, its a sense of just because you want something to go faster you "have to" train your learning skills and you just don't want to do that, but when you look at the pilots around you who have put in the time and are bragging about how much their skill train time went down, you get jealous and angry that you didn't do it from the start and you think about all the time you lost since then just because you didnt spend those 8 days training something. There are those who decide to make a choice and then there are those who are indecisive. Just because you feel regret that you couldn't make a choice doesn't mean you need to punish those who did.
Mara Devortex	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:08:00 - [74] IMHO Eve is about the choices we make and the consequences of those choices..learning skills are just another facet of those choices...What makes Eve so Enjoyable as an MMORPG is its Depth and variety of choices ..ie skills etc. Learning skills are not compulsory..they are not required to learn other skills (LOL except for other learning skills) but they do present a set of choices that can affect the choices you make later...all the more reason to love em!!!!!!
jaybo34 Caldari Mentis Fidelis Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.09.05 11:31:00 - [75] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Why are Learning skills in the game? A kind of hazing - we all had to do it, so, so shall you? A "test" for newbies to prove their loyalty to the game? A throttle for fun? CCP's equivalent of skinning boars until you get to level 70 leatherworking? or is it A terrible terrible mistake? I think CCP knows learning skills were a mistake; the fact that they haven't removed them is probably because they fear a backlash from older players (see point A above). I urge CSM to use your soap box to tell CCP that we the players will support the removal of learning skills. Discuss. Are you referring to just learning skills as in clarity ect , or are you talking about all skills in general like gunnery electronis engineering ect. If you are talking about all skills I;m afraid its a really stupid idea. skills are fine the way they are. though skill ques would be nice.
Mediastinum Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:35:00 - [76] Keep 'em in the game! They help weed out the "ADHD" crowd. ------------------------------------------------ When you pay for my playtime, you can dictate to me what my opinion should or should not be, until then move along
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.09.06 03:22:00 - [77] Heres a new suggestion Why not make attributes contribute to actual ingame performance of the player? For example Every point into willpower adds o.5% more damage to all weapon systems used (so that be about 10-15% max) Every point of charisma adds o.5% standings gains or tax/fee reduction Every point of perception adds o.5% to scan resolution and targeting range if you make all attributes tie into to somthing or even possible multiple somethings it would become an incintive to train learning skills to the max. The bonus should however be minute, minute as possibly o.25% instead of 0.5% New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
Drektar Ginjavitus Hunters Imperiale Red Dawn Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.06 13:48:00 - [78] I disagree with the whole concept of this thread. I'm a fairly new player and haven't found having to train learning skills have limited me at all. You just need to use your imagination and find ways of playing that you can do, there is plenty of activities to choose from. If you don't like the way the game works, you don't have to play.
Maverick 52 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.09.06 17:16:00 - [79] Originally by: Windjammer The analogy only seems false because you don't extend it to its completion. Your logic is firm for as far as it goes. However, what you're not taking into account is that a large number of people do not train learning skills or at least do not do so right away. I've run into many pilots who feel that it's a waste of time and prefer to go directly to whatever they wish to pursue. Most of these seem to be PvP oriented pilots. Thus training a learning skill becomes a strategic decision. One something like Eve-Mon can't help you with. Are you better served to train learning skills to completion first or are you going to get to where you want to go faster by training gunnery, etc, first and worrying about learning skills later? Later when you might want to have them to tackle some of the really long training times. Remember, it takes a long time to train learning skills. Even with the faster training those skills give you, it takes a long time to recover the time lost while training them. Most of the early skills we train are so short that maxed learning skills don't give you any kind of significant advantage. Finally, for the record, I've never had a "run in" with Joe in game or to the best of my knowledge in the forums. Regards, Windjammer Just for reference I'll provide a little eve "life story". When I joined Eve, I wanted to mine. I did my thing in 1.0 during my trial period, learned how some stuff worked, etc etc. I thought I'd get rich flying to low sec to mine, so i did, and promptly got popped in the belts. The guys who were there were nice enough, I talked w/ them and I realized mining was boring versus the rush I just had in getting blown up. I joined their pirate corp and started to Yarr! in my first month of eve. How does this have to do with learning skills? How do you think a 1 month old pirate training nothing but learn skills does? Crap. I trained the learning skills a few levels in, nothing special, but immediately started on getting that warp scramble, better gunnery skills, better tank skills. When your that new, training a basic skill from lvl1 to lvl 3 makes a HUGE difference(and heck, alot of basic skills you might not even have) and they take next to no time. Instead of immediately training learning skills for over a month so later on in eve when I'm training rank 8 lvl 5 skills I can do it faster, I trained my basic "survival" skills so that I wouldn't get WTFBBQ'd all day long. How has this affected me a year into eve? I consider, and the pilots around me consider me to be a good PVP pilot. I can fly 2 races of ships, T2 ships up to cruiser, and T2 fit my ships w/ good support skills. I've worked on my learning skills since that first month, here and there training them up. Being able to fly worthwhile ships has allowed me to make ISK and buy implants to make up for my learning skills. As I begin to train longer skills, I see the importance of those learning skills, and will likely be training them higher. In short, learning skills aren't a mistake. They are there for you to grind away immediately if you choose to, they will be there later on if you choose to get some immediate pew pew on. Is it to your advantage to train them? YES! Is it to your advantage to train gunnery skills? OF COURSE! However, the level at which you train them, and when is entirely up to you. If I were a newbie flying around in drone boats, I surely would be concentrating on my drone skills while gunnery sat on the back burner. Remember, if you have every learning skill to level 5, you have the learning advantage against an opponent who doesn't. So at first that opponent may kick your butt, but later you may be able to kick his because you got to that new item/ship faster.
Drekor Silverfang	Posted - 2008.09.10 18:09:00 - [80] Why not start newbies out with 4 in basics and 3 in advanced. If they want to go higher they can other wise they still have a decent boost to their stats to start with.

Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.10 18:25:00 - [81] Skills starting out higher, eliminate learning skills? You don't have to train learning skills! If you don't however, expect other skills to take a little longer. I trained all learning to lvl 5 before training anything else. I was thinking of playing Eve long-term (payback for doing all learning long), rather than looking for an instant character to play with. I could have gone to a number of other online games for such a thing....personally, I find such games a little tedious and get bored with them. I'm currently training Titan skill....do you hear me complaining about the 54 day training time? Arithron
Maulos Caldari the united	Posted - 2008.09.11 12:32:00 - [82] I for the removal or learning skill.
Peter Powers FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.12 12:44:00 - [83] when i started playing eve you where pretty low on skillpoints / trained skills, and it took me quite a while to get to where todays starters start. in my opinion that change was allready not the best idea. this game has a very high learning curve and having a lot of skills right from the start doesnt make people think about what their doing. Today you see alot (more) of noobs flying in battleships or battle cruisers in lowsec, while they dont even know enough about the game mechanics. those pilots get angry & frustrated when you shoot 'em, and they dont do the most important thing for eve: Learn your Game. This is alot more important then having a quick start skill-wise. Removing learnings would remove another learn-your-game timebuffer giving a even faster start skillwise, but will still not help 'em to learn why they should not put a 100mn AB, an xlarge shieldbooster, a few smarbombs, a plate and some cpu enhancer on a Phoenix. So totaly wrong idea. instead of thinking how you can get 'em a faster skillwise start, you should look into finding ways to interest those guys for training, to teach 'em and to use the given time to have pilots that know what their doing at the end. I love CCP Morpheus<3 xXx CCP Morpheus xXx <3
deadEd	Posted - 2008.09.14 13:22:00 - [84] Originally by: Nova Fox Heres a new suggestion Why not make attributes contribute to actual ingame performance of the player? Awful idea. One of the nicest parts of Eve is that your attributes don't really control you. Started off as PvE but want to go into PvP? No problem! Might take you a bit more time than someone who went pure Per/Wil, but you'll get there and be just as effective. Shoehorning people into certain roles because of their stats is way too much like every other generic MMORPG out there. Honestly, I like where things stand with attributes and learning skills. If you really want to get into the whole min/maxing thing to get the absolute optimal training times, then yeah you can do the learning skills thing. If you don't, that's cool too. If you have good SP in Gunnery, it won't be any more or less effective just because you didn't bother with learning skills beforehand.
Jay See	Posted - 2008.09.14 23:43:00 - [85] not discussing if we have to remove em skills or not but i keep reading: there is no practical ways to do so here is a practical way let's say we've find a way to enhance the pod interface and it nows give a perma +5 or +7 or +10 (weee!) to all attributes remove the learning skills from the learning tree allow each existing char to self-reassign the number of SP he had in the learning speciality (like if you had 1,2M you can right-click > instant train the skills you want till you're spend it all.) maybe double the bonus of cyber learning implants: +2/+4/+6/+8/+10 instead of the actual +1/+2/+3... to keep significant differences between players this would lead to a general decrease in skill-training time, meaning you'd have to train for ONLY 12 YEARS to get all skills to V... well ccp if you don't like my idea, you can as well x2 everyone's sp/hour ! much appreciated! thanks! (coz i don't want to die before i flew all eve ships mm'okay ?)
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.16 20:09:00 - [86] Really, really simple. CCP gets a full month of players paying without any drag on their systems from players actually playing. Unfortunately, this also drives off many potential new players. I have introduced several friends to this game. Even with me providing a lot of stuff at the beginning for free, they indicated they were exceedingly frustrated with the amount of time they had to wait before being able to actually use their character. To clarify, they have no problem waiting for bigger ships, they have a problem with having nothing for them to do for a week to a month in the game. Give everyone all the learning skills trained to 5. Most people have lvl 4 on their advanced skills, so, I for one wouldn't be bothered by the loss of a month of training (to skilling up the initial learning skills). It would be like a badge for old players - "yup, I remember when you had to do the learning skills. Didn't that suck?" Get rid of them. Give everyone the attributes of fully-trained learning skills. Put it to a vote.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.16 20:30:00 - [87] If you want newbs to learn the game, improve the actual tutorial. Newbs first experience with PVP is wandering blindly into a gank. Insta-pop style. Half the time, they don't even know what happened until it happens to them again. That was what happened to me, I have since learned about smartbombs. Provide newbs with a PVP arena. They HAVE to die at least once. Let them experiment with the different fittings. The vast majority of this game revolves around PVP. Provide an arena for 1-v-1 and 3-v-3 combat for players based on their total SP. Don't shy away from it. Show people "this is the fun part of the game, whether it be successfully avoiding pvp or blowing up someone else's ship, this is what Eve-Online is all about!"
Lia Gaeren Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens	Posted - 2008.09.16 20:42:00 - [88] Originally by: Bagehi ...the amount of time they had to wait before being able to actually use their character. Had to? HAD to??!? Were they so into min-maxing their character that they weren't prepared to train for the couple of extra hours it would take to get a) basic piloting skills to allow them to do things in the game and THEN... b) make a start on learning skills You are advising these new players wrongly. Instead of saying "This is a cool game, but before you can play you 'have to' put in a month of doing really boring stuff" try saying instead "This is a really cool game, here's a little frigate, train skill a and skill b for a couple of hours and go have some fun shooting things!" Seriously. You don't NEED to get every SP you can out of your character from minute 1. Training skills are for the long term. If someone wants to have some short term fun when they first start the game, for crying out loud, let them have it. When they get into EVE enough to want to squeeze those SPs, THEN introduce the things... you never know, they might even be happy to learn that they can speed up their training times, and be happy to do them!
Dogfighter	Posted - 2008.09.17 22:05:00 - [89] /signed I hate learning skills, but I'm not stupid to stop training them. An idea: First set all old players' learning skills to lvl 5. New players start with all learning skills set to 5. Second: for those players who already trained learning skills, give them some kind of SP wild cards which can be partially/totally consumed to finish the training of his/her next skills. This would also be a useful functionality for skill training time reimbursement petitions. The amount of SP wild cards received depends on how much learning skill points were trained. I don't have a good idea for a formula yet, because when you start learning the learning skills, you do it very slowly, since your attributes are very low. I ask for suggestions on how to calculate these SP wild cards... Any idea?
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.18 16:00:00 - [90] I didn't tell them what to train. I simply gave them a better frigate, some weapons, and let them go. After a few days, the inevitable question arises, "how do I train faster?" I then explain the learning skills, evemon, and implants. And things go downhill from there. Originally by: Lia Gaeren Originally by: Bagehi ...the amount of time they had to wait before being able to actually use their character. Had to? HAD to??!? Were they so into min-maxing their character that they weren't prepared to train for the couple of extra hours it would take to get a) basic piloting skills to allow them to do things in the game and THEN... b) make a start on learning skills You are advising these new players wrongly. Instead of saying "This is a cool game, but before you can play you 'have to' put in a month of doing really boring stuff" try saying instead "This is a really cool game, here's a little frigate, train skill a and skill b for a couple of hours and go have some fun shooting things!" Seriously. You don't NEED to get every SP you can out of your character from minute 1. Training skills are for the long term. If someone wants to have some short term fun when they first start the game, for crying out loud, let them have it. When they get into EVE enough to want to squeeze those SPs, THEN introduce the things... you never know, they might even be happy to learn that they can speed up their training times, and be happy to do them!

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