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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Ankhesentapemkah
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:26:00 -
[181]
I want Jade Constantine as well as EVERYONE ELSE on this Council to quit the political games and get to work. Last night was an embarrassment and a slap in the face to all the people that voted. Take a look at your fancy elected governments all over the world, as soon as politics get involved, their productivity drops to near zero as they are bickering over non-issues. Cut out the politics, your egos and your personal pet agendas, and start serving the people. Honor your duties as a council member and work towards making this game better - for everyone.
Despite the unprofessionalism in yesterdays meeting, I'm not going to support this thread as it's yet another non-productive political game. While Jade Constantine is the one responsible on paper, it is not constructive to start attributing everything that went wrong to a single person, be it Jade or anyone else.
I ask of everyone to refrain from pointing fingers and look at themselves for a moment. Think how you can prevent this from happening next time. I have taken part in numerous discussions and I have seen debates that were chaired by people that performed much worse than Jade did in the last meeting turn out extremely productive. Again, you can't attribute yesterday's fiasco to a single person.
Let's all think about what happened, learn from it and make sure we'll ALL do a better job next time! ---
Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
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Akiba Penrose
PAK
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:33:00 -
[182]
- - Falcons |
Windjammer
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:36:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Originally by: Lithyia Theia why is it 99% goonswarm members doing thumbs up in this thread and barely no others?
Maybe the other people posting in the thread are incapable of reading a chatlog.
Yeah. Everybody knows that goonswarm has a higher percentage of people that can read.
I've been around long enough to know that goonswarm isn't biased in any way. Why...they're the cream of the crop....real peachy keen individuals.......always fair....that's goonswarm.
Oh look. I think that pig just made orbit under its own power.
Windjammer
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Windjammer
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:39:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I want Jade Constantine as well as EVERYONE ELSE on this Council to quit the political games and get to work. Last night was an embarrassment and a slap in the face to all the people that voted. Take a look at your fancy elected governments all over the world, as soon as politics get involved, their productivity drops to near zero as they are bickering over non-issues. Cut out the politics, your egos and your personal pet agendas, and start serving the people. Honor your duties as a council member and work towards making this game better - for everyone.
Despite the unprofessionalism in yesterdays meeting, I'm not going to support this thread as it's yet another non-productive political game. While Jade Constantine is the one responsible on paper, it is not constructive to start attributing everything that went wrong to a single person, be it Jade or anyone else.
I ask of everyone to refrain from pointing fingers and look at themselves for a moment. Think how you can prevent this from happening next time. I have taken part in numerous discussions and I have seen debates that were chaired by people that performed much worse than Jade did in the last meeting turn out extremely productive. Again, you can't attribute yesterday's fiasco to a single person.
Let's all think about what happened, learn from it and make sure we'll ALL do a better job next time!
Thanks, Ank. At least this is one thing I can agree with on this thread.
Best regards, Windjammer
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Lithyia Theia
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:41:00 -
[185]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: Lithyia Theia why is it 99% goonswarm members doing thumbs up in this thread and barely no others?
Because while most alliances have a small segment that browse forums avidely, goons coming from somethingawful.com FORUMS all tend to do this. So there's more of us than your average alliance :)
but alliance pilots are only 10% of the eve population ?
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Rashonna
2H Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:42:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Rashonna on 09/06/2008 09:42:43
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I want Jade Constantine as well as EVERYONE ELSE on this Council to quit the political games and get to work. Last night was an embarrassment and a slap in the face to all the people that voted. Take a look at your fancy elected governments all over the world, as soon as politics get involved, their productivity drops to near zero as they are bickering over non-issues. Cut out the politics, your egos and your personal pet agendas, and start serving the people. Honor your duties as a council member and work towards making this game better - for everyone.
Despite the unprofessionalism in yesterdays meeting, I'm not going to support this thread as it's yet another non-productive political game. While Jade Constantine is the one responsible on paper, it is not constructive to start attributing everything that went wrong to a single person, be it Jade or anyone else.
I ask of everyone to refrain from pointing fingers and look at themselves for a moment. Think how you can prevent this from happening next time. I have taken part in numerous discussions and I have seen debates that were chaired by people that performed much worse than Jade did in the last meeting turn out extremely productive. Again, you can't attribute yesterday's fiasco to a single person.
Let's all think about what happened, learn from it and make sure we'll ALL do a better job next time!
get back in your corner and sharpen a pencil or something
(j/k)
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Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:43:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Lithyia Theia why is it 99% goonswarm members doing thumbs up in this thread and barely no others?
Because goons don't like having anyone other than one of their own as chair of the CSM and resent any attempt for the chair to act like one. i.e. moderate the freakin meeting.
Thanks for the personal attack instead of a defence of Jade's actions. When even his own alliance's alts won't defend him you know he's sunk.
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.09 10:03:00 -
[188]
I was prepared to see how things pan out.
But after reading the latest CSM log, I have to say that I have no confidence in Jade's abilities as chairman.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Hardin
Praetoria Technologies
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Posted - 2008.06.09 10:05:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I want Jade Constantine as well as EVERYONE ELSE on this Council to quit the political games and get to work. Last night was an embarrassment and a slap in the face to all the people that voted. Take a look at your fancy elected governments all over the world, as soon as politics get involved, their productivity drops to near zero as they are bickering over non-issues. Cut out the politics, your egos and your personal pet agendas, and start serving the people. Honor your duties as a council member and work towards making this game better - for everyone.
Despite the unprofessionalism in yesterdays meeting, I'm not going to support this thread as it's yet another non-productive political game. While Jade Constantine is the one responsible on paper, it is not constructive to start attributing everything that went wrong to a single person, be it Jade or anyone else.
I ask of everyone to refrain from pointing fingers and look at themselves for a moment. Think how you can prevent this from happening next time. I have taken part in numerous discussions and I have seen debates that were chaired by people that performed much worse than Jade did in the last meeting turn out extremely productive. Again, you can't attribute yesterday's fiasco to a single person.
Let's all think about what happened, learn from it and make sure we'll ALL do a better job next time!
I am going to agree with Ankh here.
While I do believe that the meeting was poorly managed by Jade yesterday, particularly the blatant and biaised editorialising, this is still a 'learning' process. We are in effect creating the model by which future CSMs will operate and that is by its very nature an 'interesting' and painful process.
I do hope that Jade, indeed all of us, can learn from this and move forward more constructively.
We should not get distracted by the bickering towards the end of the meeting when a lot of good work was also passed.
If even 50% of the issues we have passed on to Iceland get seriously looked at by CCP and resolved then I think CSM will have done an amazing job (bickering aside)...
----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 10:06:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Cut out the politics, your egos and your personal pet agendas, and start serving the people. Honor your duties as a council member and work towards making this game better - for everyone.
Think how you can prevent this from happening next time.
Let me see, I will go ahead and assume that you are intending that this message was pointed at me as well.
First point, honoring your duties. It's my duty to represent the people who voted me. I WILL assume that it's in everbody's interest that people act maturely, so that we work effectively. I *SEVERAL* times told people to move on and I tried to addres the chairman, in order for that to happen. What did it help? Nothing. I was ignored until I called out Jade personally.
Unless Jade DOES take this critism to him, I can't really help preventing this. I tried several times to make things go smoother. But I wil make the same point as above, I was blalantly ignored.
I really hope that things will be better next time. But I will judge at that time.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.06.09 10:25:00 -
[191]
He deserved a chance but showed he is not capable of beeing the chairman.
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Araviel
Epic.
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Posted - 2008.06.09 10:29:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Hardin
this is still a 'learning' process. We are in effect creating the model by which future CSMs will operate and that is by its very nature an 'interesting' and painful process.
yea, and it feels a bit like CCP have put you all in a empty room and given you some IKEA furniture to decorate whit but not given you any assembly plans, so its gonna take some time for you guys to put it all toghter. but i think you will fix it,
if not, get hammer and nails and some super glue.
----------------
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:04:00 -
[193]
(repost from Jita Park)
As to the general complaints about muting raised here. I stand 100% behind what I did. And I'd do exactly the same next time, to any CSM member who ignores 2 formal warnings on disruptive behaviour. I'm expecting certain rules of courtesy from CSM members in council and these need to be respected if this process is going to go anywhere.
Its been established that raising a hand "!" in channel is to be used to indicate a desire to speak. From there the chair recognizes individuals by name and they speak in order as called. Once we've moved to a vote on an issue it is not appropriate to continue debating against the notion of the vote - clarification can be asked for, its considered respectful behaviour to listen to clarification while its being given.
Now text based meetings of this sort are extremely challenging - there is no verbal queue, no eye contact, and very little peer pressure on members of the council to behave properly. Yesterday's session is an example of what happens when moderation from the chair is not followed. We managed to get through the agenda by pure force of will and stubborn resolve on the part of the CSM officers however - if we'd ended on time - items 6 to 17 on the agenda would not have been heard.
But it does show there are problems. I'm pretty unhappy with the in-game chat system and its functionality in this medium. The mute function does not work as it should do, the word limits mean that statements are broken up and its too easy for people to interrupt and break the flow of meaning. I'd personally be much happier with a voice meeting or even using IRC chat where the moderation functions work correctly.
End of the day though, that agenda was discussed and resolved and what needed clarifying got clarified. I repeat, I'm a 100% behind the moderation decisions taken and will do exactly the same thing next time if people refuse to respect the process of the meeting and keep cross-talking and interrupting and behaving disruptively.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:11:00 -
[194]
So how will you be voting on this issue when it comes up in the next meeting Jade?
If it doesn't come up at the next meeting I'd imagine that your position will only become more untenable
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Ceros X
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:35:00 -
[195]
The institution of a vote of no confidence in the position of chairperson is integral to the ability of this body to function democratically.
This issue needs to be on the agenda, as well as formalizing the powers of the chairperson to control the meeting. Even deferrence to an existing set of procedures (such as the procedures of the British Parliament) would be desireable.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:36:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy So how will you be voting on this issue when it comes up in the next meeting Jade? If it doesn't come up at the next meeting I'd imagine that your position will only become more untenable
Quote: In the case of clear attempts to violate the CSM processes laid out by CCP or obvious mental illnesses causing total breaks with reality, the CSM should be able to call for a vote of no confidence in their Chairman. Like in Hamlet. Express support or discuss criticism of this idea here, thank you.
Well if LaVista or Bane wish to allege that that I've violated CSM processes or suffer from obvious mental illnesses then I'm going to vote against obviously. (unless of cause they can show precisely how I've violated those processes or maybe produce a certificate of mental illness). I guess either possibility is as likely.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:38:00 -
[197]
I have no intention of raising this issue. I'm sure things will work out next time.
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Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:39:00 -
[198]
Actually this issue would determine if a vote of no confidence in the CSM Chair is allowed at all. Interesting that you would assume that two of your CSM members want you removed as Chair though.
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Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:41:00 -
[199]
Originally by: LaVista Vista I have no intention of raising this issue. I'm sure things will work out next time.
That's a sudden change in position from earlier. Has something changed to make you change your mind?
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:45:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Originally by: LaVista Vista I have no intention of raising this issue. I'm sure things will work out next time.
That's a sudden change in position from earlier. Has something changed to make you change your mind?
No. I just have high hopes that Jade will take this seriously and not make the same mistakes next time.
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Ceros X
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:45:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy So how will you be voting on this issue when it comes up in the next meeting Jade? If it doesn't come up at the next meeting I'd imagine that your position will only become more untenable
Quote: In the case of clear attempts to violate the CSM processes laid out by CCP or obvious mental illnesses causing total breaks with reality, the CSM should be able to call for a vote of no confidence in their Chairman. Like in Hamlet. Express support or discuss criticism of this idea here, thank you.
Well if LaVista or Bane wish to allege that that I've violated CSM processes or suffer from obvious mental illnesses then I'm going to vote against obviously. (unless of cause they can show precisely how I've violated those processes or maybe produce a certificate of mental illness). I guess either possibility is as likely.
The motion doesn't call for a vote of no confidence in you. It calls for the institution of a procedure whereby a vote of no confidence in the chairperson can be called and passed, and what occurs once this has happened.
Your behaviour has merely highlighted the necessity of such a formal procedure. Whether it is ever called to depose you is up to your fellow councillors.
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Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:55:00 -
[202]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Originally by: LaVista Vista I have no intention of raising this issue. I'm sure things will work out next time.
That's a sudden change in position from earlier. Has something changed to make you change your mind?
No. I just have high hopes that Jade will take this seriously and not make the same mistakes next time.
Considering Jade has stated that he feels he did nothing wrong and would act the same next time I feel you are sadly mistaken.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:59:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Considering Jade has stated that he feels he did nothing wrong and would act the same next time I feel you are sadly mistaken.
But I'm not going to judge if an elected person isn't good enough for a job, from 1 failed meeting.
I'm sure while Jade states he would do the same, that probably isn't the whole truth. He will think and learn from history, like everybody else.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 12:06:00 -
[204]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Considering Jade has stated that he feels he did nothing wrong and would act the same next time I feel you are sadly mistaken.
But I'm not going to judge if an elected person isn't good enough for a job, from 1 failed meeting.
I'm sure while Jade states he would do the same, that probably isn't the whole truth. He will think and learn from history, like everybody else.
The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives LaVista. If people will not follow the discipline of raising their hand to be recognized to speak then it is impossible to keep order between nine people in an text chat. If this happens again I'll be inclined to act earlier and more decisively to warn the people doing this and ensure we don't waste time with pointless cross talk and off-topic interruptions while we are trying to go through the agenda.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 12:14:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Jade Constantine The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives LaVista. If people will not follow the discipline of raising their hand to be recognized to speak then it is impossible to keep order between nine people in an text chat. If this happens again I'll be inclined to act earlier and more decisively to warn the people doing this and ensure we don't waste time with pointless cross talk and off-topic interruptions while we are trying to go through the agenda.
Keep digging.
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Fenir Vespin
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.06.09 12:22:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Voculus
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Furb Killer
USC Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.09 12:39:00 -
[207]
Talking about a 180 degree turn vista...
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 12:42:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Furb Killer Talking about a 180 degree turn vista...
No. I showed my support for discussing what options we have for removing a chairman, SHOULD IT BE NEEDED. I have already discussed this idea several times, even before I was elected.
I didn't show support for removing Jade. I'm still not happy about what happened, and I don't agree with the way he conducted himself. But I still think he should have a second chance.
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Tiger Delivery
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.06.09 13:02:00 -
[209]
Originally by: LaVista Vista I'm still not happy about what happened, and I don't agree with the way he conducted himself. But I still think he should have a second chance.
Good people protecting bad people is the greater evil.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 13:07:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Tiger Delivery
Originally by: LaVista Vista I'm still not happy about what happened, and I don't agree with the way he conducted himself. But I still think he should have a second chance.
Good people protecting bad people is the greater evil.
I'm not protecting him. I just don't think it's right to even think about removing anybody at this point.
I'm sorry if you don't agree. But lets not cause too much drama, if Jade does conduct himself differently at the next meeting.
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