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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.05.17 11:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 17/05/2008 11:31:17
Ok...weird post but not sure how else to get Verone's attention (a random chat out-of-the-blue in game seems odd somehow plus he probably has a 1 billion ISK charge for random chats ).
Some may have seen my post recently on my hunt for a flat panel display. In that hunt I have read far too much on every panel imaginable it seems.
Anyway, I recalled this post from Verone in another thread on someone building a slick new PC and Verone shared his new build. Among that build was two new Dell 24" flat panels.
In my reading those panels get generally very good reviews and seem sweet. That is until you come across the one measurement that is rather rare for most reviews to touch upon and manufacturers never, ever tell you): Input Lag.
Input Lag != panel speed (panel speed is usually given a something like 5ms GTG). This is separate although in conjunction with panel speed and some other things it adds up. Essentially, when bad enough, you move the mouse to change your view in (say) an FPS and the display lags behind in moving you noticeably. Some people are more sensitive than others to this effect and it is present in all but a very few flat panels yet most people never notice. However, in some cases it can be very noticeable to anyone.
Anyway, in my other thread on panels some helpful posters gave me a link to a very cool European site called BeHardware.
In a comparison of the Dell 2408WFP (which I am guessing is what Verone is looking at) they found a show stopper...horrendous input lag. I'll copy a snippet from there below and leave it to you to figure if you care.
Hope you see this in time:
Quote: On the one side is the Dell with an average delay of 4.1 images, and on the other, the Iolair with zero input lag û even having the luxury of occasionally being slightly ahead of the CRT.
As you can see on the Dell, the worst is that the delay varies from 60 (3.6 images) to 89 ms (5.3 images) once we discard the two extremes values. If we include the minimum, nothing changes. On the other hand, if we add the maximum, the 2408WFP is 10 images behind!
Even with æÆonlyÆÆ 4 images, the difference is perceptible in games and movies because you can hear sound before the image.
<snip>
This result was verified on the two 2408WFPs we tested as well as with several American colleagues that use our test methods.
SOURCE: BeHardware: Iolair vs. Dell
Hope this post doesn't come across wrong as some sort of self-appointed, overly anal, flat panel naci. Just figured those results were startling enough to merit a warning. Of course you may not care as otherwise that panel seems nice. Just FYI.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:17:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 17/05/2008 12:28:01 I would recommend Samsung monitors to anyone who's looking for new flat panel, LCD wides. They have a number of 22' monitors available with 2m/s response times as opposed to the usual 5m/s (2m/s is uber for gaming) and massive contrast ratios. My current monitor has a 3000:1 contrast ratio, but some of the newer models that have come out since I purchased this thing go up to 20,000:1. They also come with a number of stock default settings that you can switch between, such as text, internet, sports, games, movies, etc. as well as having a fully customizable option. The default "game" setting, especially, is impressive - it cranks up the contrast to the point where everything becomes absolutely 100% crystal clear.
As an example of these monitors' truly impressive picture definition and clarity, when I first set mine up and loaded up EVE, I undocked and switched to "game" from the default video settings...and my jaw dropped as I discovered something I hadn't known before. Not just the sun but also the stars in the background are colored! I could clearly see that some were blue, yellow, red, etc. None of my previous monitors had even come close to this level of clarity.
In any case, if you're still in the market for monitors, you can't beat the gaming monitors Samsung is currently producing. EDIT: Such as this one.
-Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:02:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 17/05/2008 12:28:01 I would recommend Samsung monitors to anyone who's looking for new flat panel, LCD wides.
I agree Samsung makes great flat panels. One of the best out there frankly (and one of the few who actually manufacture the screens...companies like NEC and Dell buy their panels from Samsung or a few others).
I was really leaning towards Samsung till I caught up on some shenanigans of theirs. It seems Samsung will out source panel manufacture to other companies and the resulting panels are nothing like the quality from Samsung although still sold as Samsung displays.
This stink hit on the 226BW which was a very well regarded monitor. All reviewers got the Samsung version of the panel. However, consumers got something else. They may have got the Samsung version or they may have gotten another manufacturers version. It was a dice roll and no way for you to ensure what you were getting (the sticker on the back might indicate which is which but even that was shown to not be reliable and you need to noodle your way into a hidden menu to find out but too late since you already have it unboxed at home to do that).
Here is a recent article on the stink and from reading other things Samsung has said this whole debacle killed the 226BW monitor (now rebranded as a 2232BW although they made some changes and frankly it is not as well regarded as the 226BW).
I have noticed this sort of thing happening with other panels and frankly it should be outlawed. Acer and Dell have been known to change what panels are in their display while still selling it under the same model number. Acer supposedly switched down from a PVA panel to a TN panel in one model without telling anyone which is a huge switch.
So, buyer beware. I still think Samsung is among the top. Their displays are generally good to very good. But honestly if I am dropping this kind of money for something I want to KNOW what it is I am getting and not get something that is maybe, kinda sorta about the same.
Samsung said (somewhere) that they will not allow this sort of thing to occur again but it may take some time to see if they hold to that.
Bottom line though (from the article I linked) is even the "bad" Samsung panel was still among the best on the market. Just not as good as good as the "good" Samsung panel.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:08:00 -
[4]
Oddly enough, the 226BW is exactly the monitor I've got. Seems I got one of the good ones. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:36:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Wrayeth Oddly enough, the 226BW is exactly the monitor I've got. Seems I got one of the good ones.
I was very much leaning to the 226BW till I read about that. You got lucky and have a great display but if you knew this beforehand would you be cool with throwing your money out there and hoping?
Maybe I am being overly picky but if I am paying for "X" I want X...not similar to and almost like X.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:48:00 -
[6]
I have the monitor mentioned. I have played everything from Supreme Commander with 1000 unit cap, to CoD4 with max settings on it without a problem. No screen lag can be perceived.
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Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:49:00 -
[7]
I don't disagree, there. I expect, though, after their previous boondoggle, that Samsung wouldn't be stupid enough to repeat their mistake since they're now being watched like a hawk. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.05.17 14:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 17/05/2008 14:17:03
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I have the monitor mentioned. I have played everything from Supreme Commander with 1000 unit cap, to CoD4 with max settings on it without a problem. No screen lag can be perceived.
I do not think it is the complexity of the scene as that is more about your video card (I could be wrong, that is just how I understand the input lag issue). It is about the screen displaying what it gets.
If you notice in the article they show how on one screen you are already moving and can see the bad guy while on the other you see nothing. This is likely most important in multiplayer and particularly if you are a hyper jacked-up twitch monster. This may be less an issue in single player although the article suggests it can be enough for the sound to be de-synched with the video.
Here are some examples of the lag on the Dell 2408 (no RickRolls...I promise):
Sample 1 Sample 2 (as suggested in the vid I paused at random points and found differences as high as 0.6 seconds)
Eh...I dunno. If you are having a blast with it then great. By all accounts it is a very good monitor barring (maybe) this one issue.
EDIT: Looking at some other side-by-side comparisons I admit I am hard pressed to tell the difference most times. I am certainly not someone munching chocolate frosted sugar bombs and washing them down with Jolt cola type of gamer. Maybe this is much ado about nothing. I guess only hands on experience with one would really let me know how it is.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Daelorn
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.17 15:15:00 -
[9]
I just bought a 22 inch Samsung (2ms and 8000:1) and lub it.
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Krxon Blade
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Posted - 2008.05.17 16:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Krxon Blade on 17/05/2008 16:03:17
I own Dell 24'' 2407wfp-hc and it works just fine. With default settings some minor ghosting could be noticed, but only with specific color combinations. After tweaking ghosting is gone.
-- EVE ambulation (Full Body Avatar) character creator 2.0 EVE offline game |
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.05.17 17:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Krxon Blade I own Dell 24'' 2407wfp-hc and it works just fine.
Eh...maybe this is only something apparent under an electron microscope in a lab. The review I linked in the OP did not sound encouraging but maybe only the most anal and twitchy of gamers would ever notice and even then they may be fooling themselves.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Havok Dryke
Golden Gavel Enterprises The Cooperative
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:52:00 -
[12]
In before Verone. ------------------------------
Kaboom: The process by which large objects are broken down into many small objects.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.05.17 21:22:00 -
[13]
What I'm more worried about is that he his current 2 monitors are like 30", aren't they?
Also, much overkill on that setup. What happened to your quad-sli, V?
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KrogothZero
Caldari eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 22:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Krxon Blade I own Dell 24'' 2407wfp-hc and it works just fine.
Eh...maybe this is only something apparent under an electron microscope in a lab. The review I linked in the OP did not sound encouraging but maybe only the most anal and twitchy of gamers would ever notice and even then they may be fooling themselves.
The OP stated that the 2408WFP was the pants model not the 2407 :-)
I own a 2407WFP and my years of twitch gaming are telling me it doesn't have the same problem.. Comparing it with my second monitor which is a Samsung, I can't actually see any difference between the two. I do know that the older firmware's for the 2407 do have major issues which were solved in the A19 (mine) firmware or newer.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.05.18 15:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Havok Dryke In before Verone.
Not fair, I was busy setting up my machine...
Bought two of these monitors this week, rigged up, working great... no complaints at all.
Just setting up everything then I'll be back in game \o/.
Damn I miss Eve... spent the last few hours looking at a frigging bios screen...
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
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GM Krymus
Game Masters
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Posted - 2008.05.18 15:43:00 -
[16]
I have to say, I am also a big fan of the Samsung screens. I just got myself a dual monitor setup with a 245BW and 226BW, and they are wonderful screens. I do much prefer the image quality of the 245BW, though.
I really would suggest going with 24" or larger screens these days, as their cost has come down so much. The higher resolutions and screen sizes really do make a huge difference.
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kessah
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.18 16:26:00 -
[17]
The 24" Wide screen Apple monitors are sexy nice. Dual them will set u back like 2 grand but there awesome.
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