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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Bad Harlequin
Minmatar Chiroptera Factor
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:28:00 -
[361]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov If anyone here listened to the live Dve Blog.... the main reason they DONT want to let alliances in on one side or the other is because they dont want to have 1000's of playes throw their support to one side right off the bat.
They don't want blob tactics. They wanted to control...to some extent, the size of engagements to try to keep it a little more even fights, not 800vs400.
And I totally agree with that!
Soooooo.....
do you really think this will prevent that? or merely delay it, by, like, a week or three?
Do you honestly think no one's gonna realize having 1000 vs 200 is better than having 200 vs 200? What happened to the unofficial slogan, "There are no fair fights in eve"?
How is this going to prevent numerical superiority or blob fights, once there's more than 100 people using it? The playerbase has been trained - by CCP - to use the most advantageous mechanics.
This will change how?
Kvirie > You fail so hard that it's hard to see you in the crater you made.
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DownTwisTeD
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:28:00 -
[362]
Edited by: DownTwisTeD on 17/05/2008 18:30:45 Edited by: DownTwisTeD on 17/05/2008 18:28:44 i wouldnt mind the alliances geting in on this sooner then later but not if it just turns out too be another alliance vs alliance kind of fight like now for them. if they stick too the story line of fw i think we as mid or low range fw fighters would like too see there large ships in action & help out keeping the large pirate corps from forming up too much in the combat zones.
they must remeber that this is a diffrent war with a diffrent agenda too it and not end up being there own agenda.
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In4r4
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:31:00 -
[363]
Edited by: In4r4 on 17/05/2008 18:34:24
Originally by: Bad Harlequin
Soooooo.....
do you really think this will prevent that? or merely delay it, by, like, a week or three?
Do you honestly think no one's gonna realize having 1000 vs 200 is better than having 200 vs 200? What happened to the unofficial slogan, "There are no fair fights in eve"?
How is this going to prevent numerical superiority or blob fights, once there's more than 100 people using it? The playerbase has been trained - by CCP - to use the most advantageous mechanics.
This will change how?
Because there will be no alliance overlord telling everyone to be in system X for the next 3 weeks shouting at everyone in alliance chat to get there etc.
There are multiple capturable points, in theory you should be able to pick your targets and avoid the blob, yes ppl will blob, but i have a gang going to attacka control point with 200 ppl defending it, ill choose another control point.
the mechanics have also been made so blobs wont do anything quicker, better to have 4 gangs of 50 of taking 4 points than 1 gang of 200 taking 4 times longer to do the same thing.
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:36:00 -
[364]
I see CVA as in the position of the Khanid King and his supporters. Your executor can heed the Empire's call and give up everything for the cause he claims to believe in, or he can decide to keep his outposts and his Region and his power. The big question will be, how many members of CVA will stick with him when he makes the only choice that a human being would really make in that situation.
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Bad Harlequin
Minmatar Chiroptera Factor
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:37:00 -
[365]
Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 17/05/2008 18:40:55
Originally by: Tissa I'm just going to go ahead and quote this one, you do realise that this is exactly the attitude that turns people off joining RP corps and alliances and is the attitude no one wants to see in FW. In all honesty I hope that anyone with a "we have been rping for years and are better than you so do what we say" attitude avoids the minmatar channels as they are clearly more suited to the amarr way of thinking.
Right, because being selective in who you associate with, like to spend your free time listening to, or taking actions that reflect on yourself or your organization, is such an off-the-wall concept...
You want the harsh reality of RPers "adapting" to FW? You complain that the existing Alliances are what turn off newcomers to RP? Please. People wander into OOC and the various chat chans all the time, and i see nothing but calm, rational, helpful people giving good advice and tips and a welcoming, friendly atmosphere - OOC, that is, before we tear into them IC.
You wanna see the new RP experience in FW? Here it is - only ahem slightly dramitized
New RPer > Greetings pilots! How goes the mighty struggle today? Random1 > lol stfu**** Random2 > anyone got lp i can use i'll pay Random3withLordSomethinginhisname > I AM THE NEW AMARISH EMPERIR! Random3 > rick james! chuck norris! i am the epitome of 13 year old wit and wisdom! no one has shouted these things in channels before11!1!!1! New RPer > /wrist
Yeah, i don't know why us "elitist" RP types who've been building community for years wouldn't be looking forward to this
... tell me i'm wrong
In other news:
Originally by: In4r4 Edited by: In4r4 on 17/05/2008 18:34:24
Originally by: Bad Harlequin
This will change how?
Because there will be no alliance overlord telling everyone to be in system X for the next 3 weeks shouting at everyone in alliance chat to get there etc.
There are multiple capturable points, in theory you should be able to pick your targets and avoid the blob, yes ppl will blob, but i have a gang going to attacka control point with 200 ppl defending it, ill choose another control point.
the mechanics have also been made so blobs wont do anything quicker, better to have 4 gangs of 50 of taking 4 points than 1 gang of 200 taking 4 times longer to do the same thing.
But you're not disproving what i say - you're saying there WILL be blobs, it just WON'T MATTER.
Making the rationale of not including alliances due to blobbing... invalid. According to you, FW itself makes blobs obsolete (something i will believe when i see).
So again - if it's been solved, why worry about it?
Kvirie > You fail so hard that it's hard to see you in the crater you made.
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De Sojus
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:45:00 -
[366]
Quote: I'm really trying to see your point of view, but am struggling with the idea of having two masters. Choose one or do work arounds (like you did in the first place by making the alliance
I find the nonchalant way of which you dismiss CVAs efforts in Providence problematic. You want them to give up years of hard work to be able to help out the Amarr Empire in a time of need? You want players to abandon their poses and stations, time and efforts for a feature they been waiting for all along? And why wouldnĘt the 4 factions call upon big alliances for help ū donĘt they plan on winning?
I donĘt think CVA calls themselves roleplayers for PR reasons. Afaik, they are the only alliance acting with ties to the storyline that can, on paper, be defeated. Providence has been the only place where you can actually expel the Amarr Empire (by proxy). In effect, that place has been faction wars for years now.
I can fully understand initial restrictions on FW for technical reasons or cautious reasons but to exclude alliances because they are supposedly rival empires is a bad call. After all, the alliance system is just as much a game mechanic that facilitates socializing between players than a tool for sovereignty
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Sarmaul
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:46:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon This might sound harsh -- but the thing EM mostly gives us is identity, and the ability to screen people who join so that we know we get the kind of people we want, to contribute to the alliance spirit. Our alliance chat and all our fleet operations are IC at all times and we enforce that. People who do not like that kind of stuff simply do not join the alliance or leave very soon.
Joining an alliance where we lose that control and just simply anyone can join up -- I am sorry, but that is not appealing at all.
I find the idea that the RP alliances should or do not exist for anything but sovereignty quite offensive and clueless, to be honest.
Elsebeth
And what is stopping those Electus Matari corps from only working together to achieve FW objectives? From having their own Teamspeak? From having their own chat channel? Absolutely nothing, that's what.
The only in-game benefits being in a non-space-holding (NSH) alliance bring are:
1. An extra chat window 2. An easy way to set standings
No doubt there will be a "Faction" window (and you can create your own private "Electus Matari" channel and give access to corps of your choosing), and setting standings won't be much of an issue when your friends and enemies will be decided for you.
In fact, the only line of *****ing I've seen from the NSH roleplay alliances has been the fact that they lose their alliance name, which I find quite amusing as I thought you guys would be chomping at the bit to have it displayed in game that you are officialy part of the Minmatar Republic/Amarr Empire/etc.
Alliances are for groups of players with their own agenda. Factions will be for those with a set agenda. Pick which one you want and then stop moaning :P
Originally by: Calmdown Blastermoas.
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Delezar
Hellfire-Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:47:00 -
[368]
Originally by: In4r4 Edited by: In4r4 on 17/05/2008 18:34:24 [...] the mechanics have also been made so blobs wont do anything quicker, better to have 4 gangs of 50 of taking 4 points than 1 gang of 200 taking 4 times longer to do the same thing.
With the difference, that a couple of 50 people gangs might be fought, while most will run from a 200 man gang. Which will actually allow the blow to progress faster due to a lack of opposition.
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Rulkez
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:48:00 -
[369]
Edited by: Rulkez on 17/05/2008 18:48:22
Originally by: Delezar
Originally by: In4r4 Edited by: In4r4 on 17/05/2008 18:34:24 [...] the mechanics have also been made so blobs wont do anything quicker, better to have 4 gangs of 50 of taking 4 points than 1 gang of 200 taking 4 times longer to do the same thing.
With the difference, that a couple of 50 people gangs might be fought, while most will run from a 200 man gang. Which will actually allow the blow to progress faster due to a lack of opposition.
The fights the point ?
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:49:00 -
[370]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus The factions claim sov over systems, and are asking for people to help defend their own sov systems... Why on earth would they trust anyone else who is trying to gain sov over systems as well?
Under this logic, all of the alliances would be engaging in a free for all. Under the prime fiction, gallente and minmatar are aligned against caldari and amarr. Are you saying these allegiences won't exist under FW?
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Sarmaul
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:52:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: CCP Dionysus The factions claim sov over systems, and are asking for people to help defend their own sov systems... Why on earth would they trust anyone else who is trying to gain sov over systems as well?
Under this logic, all of the alliances would be engaging in a free for all. Under the prime fiction, gallente and minmatar are aligned against caldari and amarr. Are you saying these allegiences won't exist under FW?
Stop trying to wrangle future plotlines out of the devs :P
Originally by: Calmdown Blastermoas.
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Major Death
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:56:00 -
[372]
I believe that the message from CCP is 'wait and see as nothing is written in stone'.
Of course what worries people is the FW becomes the only RP show in town, and nothing else happens unless its tied to FW.
My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!' |
Tissa
Minmatar Alice in Wonderland Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:58:00 -
[373]
Now you are just exaggerating Bad Harlequin, I dont like the idea that anyone can walk into FW and tell everyone how to play, yes it would benefit the faction if the more experienced players were to help teach people who have never done PvP before and to help ease people into RP but to think it's your god given right to run the whole show is not right or fair and could lead to bullying. You need to be guides not dictators.
For the record I have spent many hours in OCC and The Summit and have enjoyed myself immensely, I am not a critic or naysayer about RP in the slightest and if you knew me you would know I run www.evefront.com which was a website/system database/free and group organizational tools designed for Roleplaying. Yes it is really bad that the RP alliances seem to have been left out when they decided to stop the whole of eve joining in at once, but please give ccp a chance to show you it on sisi before acting too rashly.
No wonder you're late. Why, this watch is exactly two days slow. www.evefront.com
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Faife
Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.05.17 18:58:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Major Death I believe that the message from CCP is 'wait and see as nothing is written in stone'.
Of course what worries people is the FW becomes the only RP show in town, and nothing else happens unless its tied to FW.
This exactly.
He's saying "We have a version finalized and see your point, but aren't sure if we can change it. For now assume it won't but there's always possibility of change"
It's not like he can speak as his company and commit to something, right? No single dev has that power.
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.05.17 19:20:00 -
[375]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 17/05/2008 19:21:49
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus Edited by: Equinox Daedalus on 17/05/2008 18:50:05 biggest problem i see is there is no "Control" over who is in the rp alliances. who is to say some amarr pro corp joins a minnie alliance just to mess up the minnie alliance events/rp actions to fail so that amarr side can/will win.
no offense but seems utterly ubsurd.
Who says what corps can/will do when they enter the alliance? are there rules to follow? who speaks for you the amarr empire? who controls who is allowed in/out of the alliance....
An alliance of corps is a group of ppl bonded together to perform a speific goal. the alliance exeutor allows the corp in and watches them, and says, okay your not pulling your weitght, or you doing something thats against what we want. so who does/will do that?
i would think we would take orders from the empire, as for who or what corps would lead well i would say your corps deeds and skill at combat would be what earns you rank with others. you never start of in a war as a hero/leader you only end up as one in the end..
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.17 19:57:00 -
[376]
Quote: Joining an alliance where we lose that control and just simply anyone can join up -- I am sorry, but that is not appealing at all.
This is why alliances shouldn't be allowed.
Once I join FW I don't want some alliance deciding the decisions in my alliance.
If you guys aren't going to stop whining our newly form factional alliance might just declare war on you.
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:12:00 -
[377]
Originally by: MotherMoon
If you guys aren't going to stop whining our newly form factional alliance might just declare war on you.
Now that would be hella sweet.
It's interesting, though, all your talk about control. I'm beginning to think that's more an issue of yours. Most RP alliances just want to participate. I'll be content with wardeccing a factional militia, as I think about it. We're not looking for control, not looking for phat l00tz, for rank, or any of the stuff that will be directly offered to memebers of the militia. Any fool can grind that kind of stuff out.
We want to take part in the new roleplay facilitating mechanics that CCP is finally introducing without abandoning the roleplay we've been doing for years already.
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M'ing Pai
The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:20:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Hober Hardin Edited by: Hober Hardin on 17/05/2008 16:56:18 Edited by: Hober Hardin on 17/05/2008 16:51:25 Thanks for the posts Dionysus o/
Quote: Technically you have claimed the systems for CVA, and just happen to follow most of the same laws/customs.
Thats the key point imho.. ..now cva (and other rp alliances) simply have to make the choice, do they continue as splinter groups of activists aligned to their respective Empires, or do they disband and fall fully under their banner..
This has been one of my primary points all along, and I foolharily tried to speak RP language to convey it, and was written off as a troll for it.
I'm happy to see some CCP employees come and say it more bluntly.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:24:00 -
[379]
At this point this is like the woman game.
Woman comes to you with a problem over which she is sorely, sorely vexed. Being a dude, your logic is this: "Woman unhappy, unhappy woman bad. Why woman unhappy? Is fault of problem! Take away problem = take away unhappy = everything good again. K." So you think and think until you figure out how to solve the problem and ta- daa! you solve it and stand there with a big stupid grin on your face expecting this outpouring of joy and gratitude.
But no, she just starts crying. You are frustrated and perplexed.
The reason for this is that when the woman is upset because of a problem, she doesn't want that problem fixed... sometimes that just makes it worse. What she wants is empathy. Never mind that that seems far less useleful to you, that's just how the alien womanlogic works.
*ahem*
Dear RP Community: even though I and others have posted several very sensible and quite effective workarounds which would offer you many Good Times(tm) but which have been completely ignored by you I now understand that the core of the problem is that since your collective salad has not been tossed to your complete satisfaction you believe yourselves to have been cruelly martyred. Oh the humanity! I feel your pain.
*gives RP Community a big hug, makes no attempt to grab its ass*
There you go now. All better? Maybe listen to reason now? ___________________________________________
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:33:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Rulkez Edited by: Rulkez on 17/05/2008 18:48:22
Originally by: Delezar
Originally by: In4r4 Edited by: In4r4 on 17/05/2008 18:34:24 [...] the mechanics have also been made so blobs wont do anything quicker, better to have 4 gangs of 50 of taking 4 points than 1 gang of 200 taking 4 times longer to do the same thing.
With the difference, that a couple of 50 people gangs might be fought, while most will run from a 200 man gang. Which will actually allow the blow to progress faster due to a lack of opposition.
The fights the point ?
ok here;s the issue, you bring 200 ships
they bring 4 groups of 50 ships
you go to one point they go to 4.
you run over one point and then wait there while the timer goes down.
you capture one point they capture 3
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:36:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: MotherMoon
If you guys aren't going to stop whining our newly form factional alliance might just declare war on you.
Now that would be hella sweet.
It's interesting, though, all your talk about control. I'm beginning to think that's more an issue of yours. Most RP alliances just want to participate. I'll be content with wardeccing a factional militia, as I think about it. We're not looking for control, not looking for phat l00tz, for rank, or any of the stuff that will be directly offered to members of the militia. Any fool can grind that kind of stuff out.
We want to take part in the new roleplay facilitating mechanics that CCP is finally introducing without abandoning the roleplay we've been doing for years already.
I don't know you that well though, are you saying your alliance leaders will give up their roles to make way for the alliance they are supporting?
I'm sorry I've been playing for a long time and trust is hard.
I mean older alliances have a sort of... elitism.
I don't want another alliance controlling ours...
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Bad Harlequin
Minmatar Chiroptera Factor
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:53:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Tissa Yes it is really bad that the RP alliances seem to have been left out when they decided to stop the whole of eve joining in at once,
Then we agree.
Quote: but please give ccp a chance to show you it on sisi before acting too rashly.
acting? i thought we were talkin', here... i'm not planning on ramming a capital into CCP's offices you know
Kvirie > You fail so hard that it's hard to see you in the crater you made.
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2008.05.17 21:23:00 -
[383]
IF CCP thinks that disallowign allainces they can avoid them from shredign FW to pieces they are soo wrong.
If they had kept quiet about this then maybe coudl work. but Do you really believe that goonswarm wil not take a 1 week move 3 thousand members to FW to put everything to pieces? They made worse with the jihadswarm!
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Shaikar
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.05.17 21:25:00 -
[384]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus If you dont want to be a sovereign entity, they why become an alliance?
For the extra war slots? Might not be too much to a stretch to imagine a corp making themselves an alliance just for the extra warslots.
Hey, imagine if someone did so purely because of the factional warfare prototype on tranquility only to later find out that that act would exclude them from the release version of FW. The irony!
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CCP Dionysus
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Posted - 2008.05.17 21:34:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Faife
Originally by: Major Death I believe that the message from CCP is 'wait and see as nothing is written in stone'.
Of course what worries people is the FW becomes the only RP show in town, and nothing else happens unless its tied to FW.
This exactly.
He's saying "We have a version finalized and see your point, but aren't sure if we can change it. For now assume it won't but there's always possibility of change"
It's not like he can speak as his company and commit to something, right? No single dev has that power.
Thank you :)
As with everything in eve, it can be subject to change. This is why we've got the CSM voting etc. We put something together that we like and think that a large portion of the players will like, we put it out to see what you think of it. Once you have played it a while and have to to make informed arguments about good and bad points, and we can see how the server is reacting to it, we'll come up with a FactionalWarfarev1.2 to add more tools for you.
I personally just think that many of you are selling yourselves short. The RP alliances did an awesome job at keeping "immersion" alive and prospering even though the game didn't provide the best of toolsets for RP (NPCs effectively not responding that much etc).
Now we're giving you a new toolset to play with, why do you seem to think that a new tool will make things worse? I love the RP, and I cant wait to see this new release on TQ for my main to get involved...
I'm going to bow out for the moment, and let Grey and the others make their dev blogs to give you more information.
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Val Vympel
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.05.17 21:55:00 -
[386]
Originally by: De Sojus And why wouldnĘt the 4 factions call upon big alliances for help ū donĘt they plan on winning?
"Pride goes before destruction,a haughty spirt before a fall." Proverbs 16:18
Ask yourself..WHY?
Why..would the Empire,Federation,Republic or State of your birth and upbringing deign to acknowledge your Alliance(s) as equals?
Why..would the entity(s)that trained you and provided for your initial provision and protection(CONCORD)view you as self made and independent? Or do you beleive that CONCORD doesn't cost exorbitant amounts of ISK? Does your Alliance(s)pay for it?
Why..would the 4 factions WANT the help of primarily self-serving private entities to help them march on low-sec and consolidate their claims to this territory?
Have no delusions...FW is about faction expansion,NOT the petty political squabbles and racial prejudice that will be used as a cover for their power mongering.
Or are the Alliances so naive as to believe that the 4 factions would spend decades and TRILLIONS of ISK to develop pod technology,erect an entity at their expense(CONCORD)to govern pod technology and pilots only to....is it dawning on you yet....SERVE them.
Any who believe that "Project Capsuleer" was not a "space fishing trip" sponsored by the 4 factions to plumb the depths of space and to expand their sovreignty is..I am sorry to say a fool.
The 4 factions will now either reel you in...or feed you to the fishes.
Disclaimer: This post is PURELY my RP perspective. In no way do I not sympathize with Alliances that have worked hard under an ideal and have made the game better for all.
Cheers
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.05.17 22:02:00 -
[387]
OK even I know that the pods were developed by the Jovians.
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Rulkez
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 22:03:00 -
[388]
Edited by: Rulkez on 17/05/2008 22:07:22
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Rulkez Edited by: Rulkez on 17/05/2008 18:48:22
Originally by: Delezar
Originally by: In4r4 Edited by: In4r4 on 17/05/2008 18:34:24 [...] the mechanics have also been made so blobs wont do anything quicker, better to have 4 gangs of 50 of taking 4 points than 1 gang of 200 taking 4 times longer to do the same thing.
With the difference, that a couple of 50 people gangs might be fought, while most will run from a 200 man gang. Which will actually allow the blow to progress faster due to a lack of opposition.
The fights the point ?
ok here;s the issue, you bring 200 ships
they bring 4 groups of 50 ships
you go to one point they go to 4.
you run over one point and then wait there while the timer goes down.
you capture one point they capture 3
i thinkk you misunderstood me, he was saying 1 200 man gang would be better because it would be unopposed, while i was agreeing 4 x 50 man gangs with the chance of an actual fight would be better
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Bad Harlequin
Minmatar Chiroptera Factor
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Posted - 2008.05.17 22:11:00 -
[389]
Originally by: CCP Dionysus As with everything in eve, it can be subject to change. This is why we've got the CSM voting etc. We put something together that we like and think that a large portion of the players will like, we put it out to see what you think of it. Once you have played it a while and have to to make informed arguments about good and bad points, and we can see how the server is reacting to it, we'll come up with a FactionalWarfarev1.2 to add more tools for you.
Fair enough. And thanks for the kind words. Gotta remember this is a sandbox for the devs as much as it is for us. They don't know WTF we're gonna do to any greater degree than we do at this stage.
...and they probably fear it more
Kvirie > You fail so hard that it's hard to see you in the crater you made.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.17 22:15:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Rulkez Edited by: Rulkez on 17/05/2008 22:07:22
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Rulkez Edited by: Rulkez on 17/05/2008 18:48:22
Originally by: Delezar
Originally by: In4r4 Edited by: In4r4 on 17/05/2008 18:34:24 [...] the mechanics have also been made so blobs wont do anything quicker, better to have 4 gangs of 50 of taking 4 points than 1 gang of 200 taking 4 times longer to do the same thing.
With the difference, that a couple of 50 people gangs might be fought, while most will run from a 200 man gang. Which will actually allow the blow to progress faster due to a lack of opposition.
The fights the point ?
ok here;s the issue, you bring 200 ships
they bring 4 groups of 50 ships
you go to one point they go to 4.
you run over one point and then wait there while the timer goes down.
you capture one point they capture 3
i thinkk you misunderstood me, he was saying 1 200 man gang would be better because it would be unopposed, while i was agreeing 4 x 50 man gangs with the chance of an actual fight would be better
opps lol doh :P
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