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Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2004.05.05 08:02:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Arnt Well, then I cannot bring back any wealth to empire space if I manage to dodge the fatties' defending teams...
no one with a brain will haul valuable stuff like mega or zyd around in 0.0 space with and indy. please recheck the weight of minerals compared to the size of a frigate cargohold, then tell me the money you can make from that is not enough for you to consider leaving some lower end minerals and crap loot behind. thank you very much for you attention.
p.s. tried going to alliance space yet?
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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.05.05 08:06:00 -
[182]
Quote: So how do i make a instajump BM to a camped gate ....
You go at around 0700 GMT
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Tsual
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Posted - 2004.05.05 08:40:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Mephisha
Originally by: Ichabod Dirange How dense are you? Instajump bookmarks, do some reading and stop whining.
*\trying to make a point mode on
So how do i make a instajump BM to a camped gate ....
Let me think
I jump into a shuttle, warpt to 15 km and start my approach to get 15km behind it
BLAM, dead
I wake up in my clone, get a new shuttle
Rinse, repeat.
* trying to make a point mode off
Hence no reason to use words like "how dense are you" and "stop whining"
Nope you take rifter with mwd, warp in and make bokmark, you will die, yet with less chance. (Ok I never tried that, but theoretically...ok perhaps I better try out before posting suggestions) --------------------------------------
Tsual - Miner from faith, frigat junky for life. Ritual of the Qua'nadhar. |
Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 13:34:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Ichabod Dirange How dense are you? Instajump bookmarks, do some reading and stop whining.
Originally by: Arnt
Now i'm going to ask this:
If I am in an indy, I spawn in the system with the closest object to warp to requiring me 10 seconds to align to, and 12 ennemy BS around me, I do not have a bookmark in this direction because I never managed to stay long enought to make it, I couldn't buy this bookmark because last attempt was a scam, what are my chances of surviving?
Now you are going to answer this if you do not want the readers to associate your name with some unpleasant adjectives...
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Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 13:39:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Tenacha Khan
Originally by: Ichabod Dirange How dense are you? Instajump bookmarks, do some reading and stop whining.
Iteron mk V can fit 5 warp core stabs
Wich are absolutly useless as you will explode before aligning with your warp destination.
Whatever what you DARE to call "solution" is they are unrealistic, and involve a FRIGGING HIGH percent of destruction risk. They are based on LUCK.
MY solution of getting rid of the choke points is MUCH more realistic and involves TACTICS and ORGANIZATION.
You fatties are trying to protect yourself, that's all.
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Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 13:42:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Biscotto Thats why you have a corp/alliance. You get an escort to clear a path for you or a scout flying ahead in a disposable ship reporting if gates are clear. Using a little intelligence and most things are possible in game. Team work is essential, try todo EVE on your own just makes it so much harder. This explains why u have corps/alliances
Excuse me but I already stated that current empire space based corporations cannot handle the fatties' corporations as long as the fatties are "blessed" with an easy to defend choke point allowing them to keep their forces at an efficient level of concentration.
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Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 13:47:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande no one with a brain will haul valuable stuff like mega or zyd around in 0.0 space with and indy.
No one with a brain would kiss 10 millions goodbye.
Quote:
please recheck the weight of minerals compared to the size of a frigate cargohold, then tell me the money you can make from that is not enough for you to consider leaving some lower end minerals and crap loot behind.
Please do the math and check how long is needed so that "medium" minerals stockpile enought to become worth 10 Millions +
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Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 13:50:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Lao Tzu
Quote: So how do i make a instajump BM to a camped gate ....
You go at around 0700 GMT
Quote:
Now i'm going to ask this:
If I am in an indy, I spawn in the system with the closest object to warp to requiring me 10 seconds to align to, and 12 ennemy BS around me, I do not have a bookmark in this direction because I never managed to stay long enought to make it, I couldn't buy this bookmark because last attemps was a scam, what are my chances of surviving?
Because, let's be clear, I'd like the crowd of MORONS out there telling me how easy it is to go throught a blockade to answer this :
If the blockades are ineficient, why do they exist?
You do NOT go make a bookmark when the system is empty because the system is NEVER empty when you are playing.
Thanks for joining the crowd.
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Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 13:54:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Arnt on 05/05/2004 13:55:33 Before Crowd Member N¦16 to 78 start adding their godly knowledge to this thread, I'd like to remind readers of the existence of deployable warp prohibitors.
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.05.05 13:58:00 -
[190]
At this point I'd like to remind everyone:
Adding more entrance points to "the fatties'" space won't make it any easier to do stuff in it.
We'll still blow you up, regardless of how many entrances you have.
So unless you want to whine to the devs to make your industrial ship impervious to alliance corp attacks, you should stop now because you're making a fool of yourself. ------------- My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . ) |
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Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2004.05.05 14:02:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Arnt
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande no one with a brain will haul valuable stuff like mega or zyd around in 0.0 space with and indy.
No one with a brain would kiss 10 millions goodbye.
Quote:
please recheck the weight of minerals compared to the size of a frigate cargohold, then tell me the money you can make from that is not enough for you to consider leaving some lower end minerals and crap loot behind.
Please do the math and check how long is needed so that "medium" minerals stockpile enought to become worth 10 Millions +
no, someone with a brain will either use low end minerals in alliance space to build stuff for himself or sell it right at the spot for 2-4 times the amount of money one would get in empire. your turn again please.
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Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 15:29:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Ronyo Dae'Loki
So unless you want to whine to the devs to make your industrial ship impervious to alliance corp attacks, you should stop now because you're making a fool of yourself.
Excuse me but doesn't this statement qualify you much more than me for the 'fool' adjective?
--------------------- At this point I'd like to remind everyone:
Adding more entrance points to "the fatties'" space won't make it any easier to do stuff in it.
We'll still blow you up, regardless of how many entrances you have. --------------------- As I said : the choke points are an artificial way for the fatties to control way much more territory than their real strength should allow them to.
By the time you will expel one group of what you dare to call 'your' territory, two more will enter.
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Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 15:33:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande
no, someone with a brain will either use low end minerals in alliance space to build stuff for himself or sell it right at the spot for 2-4 times the amount of money one would get in empire. your turn again please.
Oh my god ! You mean I can make such that when refining the say top five high end ores I can instruct the station to not give me medium value minerals and I get more high value ones?
Oh - wait - that's not possible.
BTW : you *CANNOT* bring ANY mineral home even with whatever ship you want if your local fatties are decided at getting rid of you and deploy warp inhibitors in addition to their blocus.
So?
Your turn.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2004.05.05 15:39:00 -
[194]
Perhaps you should hire someone to make those bookmarks for you?
Yes, I've mined 0.0 in a frigate to prove that it could be done, since I've upgraded to a cruiser. What is it about it that's so hard to get?
Convert Stations
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Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2004.05.05 15:49:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Arnt Oh my god ! You mean I can make such that when refining the say top five high end ores I can instruct the station to not give me medium value minerals and I get more high value ones?
Oh - wait - that's not possible.
BTW : you *CANNOT* bring ANY mineral home even with whatever ship you want if your local fatties are decided at getting rid of you and deploy warp inhibitors in addition to their blocus.
So?
Your turn.
with pleasure.
a) sorry but i don't quite understand. what i meant is that you do not need an indy to ship out high end minerals (mega/zyd) and that the other minerals are worth much more in alliance than in empire space, so that there is no need to ship them to empire. hence no indy required for "blockade running" as even a frigate cargohold full of high ends is quite valuable. same goes for mid/low end loot btw.
b) what leads you to the conclusion that you can't get out? and how come there are people that can then?
c) have you ever seen or encountered a mobile warp disruptor? what information do you have about it? what i can say is that we are currently not using them since they are just not worth the effort (after having tried them out).
well, if you have some spare time, it is your turn again i guess.
p.s.: btw, been to alliance space yet?
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Biscotto
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Posted - 2004.05.05 16:25:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Arnt
Originally by: Biscotto Thats why you have a corp/alliance. You get an escort to clear a path for you or a scout flying ahead in a disposable ship reporting if gates are clear. Using a little intelligence and most things are possible in game. Team work is essential, try todo EVE on your own just makes it so much harder. This explains why u have corps/alliances
Excuse me but I already stated that current empire space based corporations cannot handle the fatties' corporations as long as the fatties are "blessed" with an easy to defend choke point allowing them to keep their forces at an efficient level of concentration.
You make it sound as if these "choke" points are camped by alliances 24/7 with 20 battleships and supporting ships. Nonsense. Most blockades i see are usually 3 or 4 ships unless there is something big happening ie. a big fight about to start. If you dont think you can run a blockade, just log off in space somewhere, come back in 30 mins and you will probably find the blockaders have got bored and moved on.
Equip your ship for the job of running a blockade, mwds, abs, core stabilsers etc. Sure you may have to put your weapons offline, but when you come out of warp and turn on all your speed modules by the time the ships have locked you, you are doing 4000m/s+ and are virtualy on the jumpgate. At those speeds battleships have difficulty tracking you. So it can be done just using a little intelligence instead of wanting to run your ship on that 30 jump trip on autopilot while you are afk
Carry forth the light of Redemption. Take it unto the places filled with darkness, And with it destroy the shadows. |
Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.05.05 16:28:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Arnt As I said : the choke points are an artificial way for the fatties to control way much more territory than their real strength should allow them to.
By the time you will expel one group of what you dare to call 'your' territory, two more will enter.
LOLLERSKATES
You have NO idea what you're talking about. ------------- My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.05.05 16:45:00 -
[198]
Arnt,
I didn't mean to escalate this thread to your detriment. I still think it's best if you come take a look yourself. I'm trying to be honest and factual here.
Sadly enough, coming to curse space would not be much of an option right now, but idf you want to I'm sure there's someone out there that will gladly show you how to effectively run gatecamps in frigates.
One frigate can carry tens of millions worth of minerals and be nearly unstoppable by us fatties. Honestly, it won't be the camps that make it hard on you, it will be mining effectively with more then 3 poeple and not be visited by a few interceptors that come to kill your mining cruisers.
Now I think we better let the matter rest since this thread is not going to accomplish anything as long as the people in it havent all seen both sides of the fence. _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |
Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.05 19:28:00 -
[199]
After reading again the last few pages of this topic something became clear for me :
We are currently only talking about the ability to invade fatties space, exploit it, and get out.
We are currently disagreeing on the risk factor, but I think we can all agree that the risk with just moving in and out DOES exist.
Now the other thing that we completly forgot is to able to exploit those systems.
The fatties represent about 10% of the playerbase. And they control about 90% of the galaxy riches in ores.
Obviously it's very tempting to go there and carve a "kingdom" for oneself by brutal force. Very high risk, very high rewards, that's what war is for :)
But the current only option is to be able to completly destroy an alliance, and take the whole of their territory. thus, replacing them.
Is there an option to take from them only a part of their systems, where the invaders could achieve local superiority?
No. Because the map is designed in such a way that the nation who control the choke point has a huge tactical advantage against the other : preventing it's ennemy to move safely, cutting it's supply lines toward the empire - the big trading market.
The problem is the size of the "entities" ie: easily defendable groups of stars that can become home for a nation.
Excuse me but currently they are way too big. And it's logical.
Why control a constellation establishing your nation's border at one choke point when you can control two with only one choke point too? Or a whole region?
Currently you can control SEVERAL regions with one choke point leading to empire space.
And, for me this is why we see such a high difference in ratio of players living in/out of empire space: because the players who came last are trapped in empire space.
Remember the current choices : a) Join an existing alliance (player or corp) This means that all noobies dreams of establishing their own independent nations are dead before even being born. Just remember those alliances where established too by newbs willing to build their nations. Since then they have grown very fat. Why can't newcomers have the right to try to achieve the same goals than those who started one year ago considering there is ABSOLUTLY NO overpopulation of those systems?
b) Stay in empire space. Very funny. Well I bet it can suit some people's gamestyle. But not everyone.
c) Destroy a whole alliance and replace it. This would require a very high number of players. And it would only be a substition of an alliance by another. The members of the destroyed alliance would then have to face the same choices.
d) Quit. For a fattie a guy/corp who lives in empire space has to join them, stay in empire space (ie stay a noob), and if he is not happy wich this choices this dumbass can just log out and quit.
I think that's useless.
I think you guys are SOOO happy with the current system that you will forum fight till the end to protect yourselves.
I'm saying : get rid of those NINE choke points, rework the map to make room for more nations, this coupled with higher rewards in 0.0 WILL get more people in 0.0, and wars will flourish, the game will breath and live.
You guys are saying : It's perfect like it is, don't touch anything. Don't touch my alliance. Don't touch my corp. Don't touch my ores. Don't touch my wallet.
Well. I'll finish my interventions in this thread by cutting/pasting the end of my first post.
Because no matter what you guys have been saying; it's still valid, and I think the following interventions just consolidate it. You guys are just locked into your point of view.
Remember that you are a minority of paying customers of this game. You have proven your complete inability to accept any way of gameplay adaptation to the increased playerbase.
For me, you guys belong to the past, getting rid of you will be hard and long, but eventually those you deny any rights and treat like slaves will get fed up of obeying such fat masters.
Originally by: Arnt
There is an easy way to make EvE a MUCH BETTER game: CCP get rid of the key systems ! We need multiple entry points into those territories!
Of course some of the fatties would cancel their subscription, as they would be unable to handle the increased pressure, the increased PvP, the crumbling of their alliances, their vastly diminished income.
But they represent only 10% of the players !
Get rid of them !
It's very easy to understand : a few days ago there was 10k+ players in EvE. CCP : you had to adapt the highway system, you had to adapt your hardware, now you have to adapt the map.
This map with it's current key systems was designed for a much lower player base than the one that currently exist.
Adapt. The sooner the better.
Or kiss your 20k+ players dreams goodbye.
I let the chihuahuas forum warriors "claim victory" in the following post with an absolute despise.
Arnt - out
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Mephisha
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Posted - 2004.05.06 05:49:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Ronyo Dae'Loki At this point I'd like to remind everyone:
Adding more entrance points to "the fatties'" space won't make it any easier to do stuff in it.
We'll still blow you up, regardless of how many entrances you have.
So unless you want to whine to the devs to make your industrial ship impervious to alliance corp attacks, you should stop now because you're making a fool of yourself.
If you have to hunt me down, at least i have a fighting chance.
Jumping into a gate camp with a myriad of disruptors, jammers and sensor links seems more like suicide.
The options i have seen so far require at least some measure of luck to get through.
The fitting requirements are so specialised that you would not be able to do much once you did get through.
Leaving only the option to engage and break up the camp completely.
In that respect i have to agree with arnt that empire corps are, and (more or less) always will be unable to do that.
Does this mean they have no right to be in 0.0 space?
I don't know
Should players be able to deny other players access to content?
I don't know
Somehow it feels wrong because THIS IS A GAME ffs.
------------------------------------------------ I have seen carebears with claws and PvP-Lords hiding in high sec space. So AWAY with all those terms. We are ALL citizens of EVE. |
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.05.06 09:12:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 06/05/2004 09:17:52 Well regarding the post immediately above:
The fittings required to run a camp are very specialised yes, but nothing prevents you from carrying whatever you need to refit with you. You can dock at any station in some quiet system (there are many quieter systems where you could dock safely and also get out and go into deeper space after that). Of course, you will always have to keep in mind the possibility of running into hostiles, but that's the same for alliance members as no alliance space is safe.
With regard to the remaining argument for increasing the number of key systems so that there are smaller areas of space to controlled by any one entrance I would like to say that that option makes some sense. Tho honestly i don't see a 50 members corp being able to keep any key system safe. The end result would be that the then 50 key systems (random number), guarding the entrances to region or constellation sized player claimed space would not be camped for more the a few hours a day. This will lead to endless visits by enemies that in turn will result in the defending corp hiding or logging off in sight of superior forces.
The main reason why the low number of key systems works is because they make it possible to defend your space IF you have a large number of players availiable for defense. The current big alliances are big because they need to be big (somewhat smaller with a higher percentage of fighters would work, but a 300 people alliance cant effectively defend two key systems for example', let alone police the inner systems as well.
I honestly believe (and I would regard myself as being reasonably objective in that) that the main reasons the current alliances hold out are 1. the fact that empire space inhabitants tend to overestimate the risk involved in getting to deep 0.0 space, and 2. that destroying an established alliance and driving it out of the place they have settled is near to impossible now.
So yes by stating point 2 above i agree you are right that the old alliance players have a big advantage because they were the first to settle 0.0. However, I see no reaon why they should be punished for that.
Fact is that 0.0 space wont tolerate the density of players safe space does, because of the inherent hosility. Having an average of 10 people in every minable or habitable 0.0 system will mean that every such system will feature a 5v5 fight nearly all the time. No mining will be possible, therefore the mining oriented people will leave for safer space again.
in short: 0.0 space does not make itself safe, domination of it through strength does. There is no other way of being able to funtion in 0.0 then fighting for your safety. And that requires defending to be feasible, in which the key systems play the major role. _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |
Archemedes
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Posted - 2004.05.06 09:15:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Arnt
BTW : you *CANNOT* bring ANY mineral home even with whatever ship you want if your local fatties are decided at getting rid of you and deploy warp inhibitors in addition to their blocus.
So?
Your turn.
Looks at dual MWD Claw interceptor...
Imagines an enemy pilot trying to lock on and fire in the 1-2 seconds I'm within 200km of the gate...
Grins.
Remember, warp disruptors apparently do NOT pull you out of warp, they only stop you from entering. So if you have an instajump BM set, they can't stop you. They have to put them at the JUMP-IN gate to stop you, and a dual MWD frigate can be out of range of even a Tempest in a couple seconds so good luck to them.
It's actually living long enough in your mining battleship to GET a hold full of refined ore that's the problem...
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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.05.06 09:22:00 -
[203]
Quote: Remember, warp disruptors apparently do NOT pull you out of warp, they only stop you from entering.
They do (or did a couple of weeks back) pull you out of warp.
I was warping to 15k, ending up 60km out looking at a serious blockade.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.05.06 09:27:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Lao Tzu
Quote: Remember, warp disruptors apparently do NOT pull you out of warp, they only stop you from entering.
They do (or did a couple of weeks back) pull you out of warp.
I was warping to 15k, ending up 60km out looking at a serious blockade.
Even thats no issue. Dual MWD's get you to that gate in 3 seconds flat, or out of their range in the same.
Warp to a spatial obeject and warp back to the gate from a different angle to avoid the no-warp field.
And those small warp disruptors are rarely seen anyway. They get killed easily and are not very effective seein as to above tactic. _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |
Sphalerite
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Posted - 2004.05.06 10:22:00 -
[205]
Lemme see if I can summarize your position here, Arnt.
the Devs made the map wrong, and everyone in 0.0 is exploiting that to keep the poor miners of empire down and out. But not to worry, you're sure that the map will change soon and all those bastards will get their comeuppance from those who haven't, untill then, done anything about taking some 0.0 space for themselves. Oh, and also everyone in 0.0 is lazy and rich and doesn't know or care about anything beyond making more isk for themselves and keeping the masses down. Does that about cover it?
I suggest you learn a bit more about 0.0 before you start telling people what life is like out here. Your views don't mesh with reality. I also suggest that you try to fit or force yourself into the world rather than trying to force EVE to be what you think it should be. Fair or not, EVE isn't going to change just because you wish it to, no matter how much you post on the forums.
Oh, and Fatties? Lame man.
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2004.05.06 11:18:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Lao Tzu
Quote: Remember, warp disruptors apparently do NOT pull you out of warp, they only stop you from entering.
They do (or did a couple of weeks back) pull you out of warp.
I was warping to 15k, ending up 60km out looking at a serious blockade.
Really? Interesting... I remember hearing a lot of people griping that they DIDN'T pull you out of warp. I wonder if that's a new feature from the last patch?
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qrac
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Posted - 2004.05.06 11:29:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Archemedes
Originally by: Lao Tzu
Quote: Remember, warp disruptors apparently do NOT pull you out of warp, they only stop you from entering.
They do (or did a couple of weeks back) pull you out of warp.
I was warping to 15k, ending up 60km out looking at a serious blockade.
Really? Interesting... I remember hearing a lot of people griping that they DIDN'T pull you out of warp. I wonder if that's a new feature from the last patch?
if the warp ends in the same grid as a mobile warp disruptor and the warp's path is through the bubble your ship will be pulled out of warp. that's the way it has worked since mobile warp disruptors entered tq. -------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Archemedes
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Posted - 2004.05.06 21:12:00 -
[208]
Ah, that explains it... the people complaining that their disruptors don't pull ships out must have placed them too far in front of the gate and therefore out of grid. Good to know...
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