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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:19:00 -
[211]
 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
The problem is that a large part of the mission runner income comes from the salvaged materials.
Yet before salvage it wasn't their income since salvage is a relatively recent addition. I wonder if the changed probing system came out at the same time as salvage?
This would mean that the ability to salvage other peoples missions would have been started at the same time as salvage.
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Belmarduk
Amarr
de Prieure
Four Elements
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:32:00 -
[212]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
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Belmarduk
Amarr
de Prieure
Four Elements
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:34:00 -
[213]
Originally by: JordanParey
People make us out to be terrible or something.
We are actually quite nice people, and we have fun in corp chat.
Remember:
It's just a game.
No you are terrible EBILE people  
CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:14:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Belmarduk
[X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
If Mission Runners ever own the wrecks, then Ninja Salvagers will, inevitably, own them!
We're Recruiting! |
Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:17:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
You're right. It could change. That would be quite the day, when, after so many Mission Runners come to the Forums and complain that Ninja Gankers are now ruining their Missions by entering, getting shot, and returning to blow them up.
I'll be sure to direct them to my thread, and show them who to blame for it. Those who make the decision to give salvage aggro might be able to handle the backlash, but nobody can guarantee that everybody can.
By all means please do - that would be a change I'd be happy to be associated with.
Because, you see, the only 'change' is that the option to defend what you see as yours would now be present. As to the rest - that can happen any time under the current system. Just take one single module from a wreck and you're flagged. The choice of aggro or not is entirely up to the salvager.
I'm not worried in the least about all the 'sky is falling and they're invading my mission space' repercussions. Those can exist right now at the desire of the salvager. The fact that it happens only seldom tells me that it will likely to continue to happen only seldom even if there is a change.
So, yes, I think it's a fine change and am happy to stand behind my support for it and any possible repercussions from it.
While you may disagree with that position, I hope that, at least, you can respect that it is honestly held, honestly stated and that I will back it up.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:14:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
So, yes, I think it's a fine change and am happy to stand behind my support for it and any possible repercussions from it.
That's a dangerous stance to take, coming from a point of view which would likely make you even more unpopular than we are.
The point I'm making is this - in our three months, we've received 19 declarations of war, from Mission Runners and Mercenaries alike. With the change you are supporting, there has already been an overwhelming number of players who said they would start actively salvaging if it gave them aggro, which would increase the number of this activity ten-fold.
This means there would be a rise in the number of Mission Runners who do not wish the change, and an rise in the number of those looking to who was responsible. Not necessarily a place I'd be too quick to jump into.
(Of course, as I bill myself and my Corporation as the 'best of the best' when it comes to Ninja Salvaging, perhaps that is a paradox in and of itself.)
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
While you may disagree with that position, I hope that, at least, you can respect that it is honestly held, honestly stated and that I will back it up.
I definitely respect the post, as I do with anyone who posts with thought, rather than emotion. It takes a lot to post with thought instead of the canned, "NO U!" responses we usually get.
I look at it from this point of view - there's loot and then there's salvage. I believe the reason why there's two separate types of 'drops' are because of the desire to keep the actions and aggro rules separate as well. Otherwise, a jetcan would be full of a mix of items and salvage, or the act of salvaging would drop salvage which was worth significantly more.
(Personally, I lean towards the fact that CCP made salvage worth so little just to satiate a tiny niche, and that they're probably surprised at how popular this niche has become.)
In the end, I respect your point of view, however, I believe that making the change would be disadvantageous to both sides.
Both Ninja Salvagers and Mission Runners would need to adapt, but in the end, I believe that Mission Runners would be affected negatively to a greater extent. That's where I believe the 'balance' issue would cause greater irritation.
We're Recruiting! |
Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 16:30:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
That's a dangerous stance to take, coming from a point of view which would likely make you even more unpopular than we are.
Oh, I'm quite used to that. I should probably call it a lifestyle...
Quote:
The point I'm making is this - in our three months, we've received 19 declarations of war, from Mission Runners and Mercenaries alike. With the change you are supporting, there has already been an overwhelming number of players who said they would start actively salvaging if it gave them aggro, which would increase the number of this activity ten-fold.
That is one possible outcome, but I don't think so. The reason I don't think so is that the aggro is already there if you want it. Just pick up some missiles, or some ammo or whatever when salvaging. Dotard has mentioned in a number of threads that he does exactly this on purpose (which I happen to think is cool actually).
Because the option is already there, and simplicity itself to enact, I doubt the change would would create much difference in participation levels.
I could, of course, be entirely wrong. People are weird things. But the logic does flow that if the option is there and not being used then making that option automatic won't entice folks who weren't bothering to use it anyway.
Quote:
This means there would be a rise in the number of Mission Runners who do not wish the change, and an rise in the number of those looking to who was responsible. Not necessarily a place I'd be too quick to jump into.
I'd not be alone and I've had worse, to be honest. Not something I'm worried (at all) about.
Quote:
I definitely respect the post, as I do with anyone who posts with thought, rather than emotion. It takes a lot to post with thought instead of the canned, "NO U!" responses we usually get.
Oh I get emotional sometimes too but I prefer rational discourse. No one who knows me will question that I have a temper. There are times, particularly on the internet, however, when some 'discussions' become not worth the time or effort any longer. I don't like those. Thank you for being civil. I'm totally cool with agreeing to disagree - that's a good thing. But it should be done with rationality and respect.
Quote:
I look at it from this point of view - there's loot and then there's salvage. <snip> (Personally, I lean towards the fact that CCP made salvage worth so little just to satiate a tiny niche, and that they're probably surprised at how popular this niche has become.)
I expect you're right although I think it has more to do with a number of other balancing factors entirely. Apparently at one point mission loot and pay was much higher but was lowered. Salvage does not seem to have been and that, perhaps, is the issue. I wouldn't be bothered by the concept of ninja salvage were the salvage not such a high percentage of the actual take. In a pair of L1s I recently ran (to build up standings I couldn't get a better agent despite the T2 vs L1 overkill) the salvage value was 14 times the combined loot value and mission pay. Honestly, I did the math. Fourteen TIMES.
Now, it's nothing like that good for L4s, but still, one can see where one might think that a bit broken that the cheapo stuff is protected but the really good crap is up for grabs...
Quote:
In the end, I respect your point of view, however, I believe that making the change would be disadvantageous to both sides.
Both Ninja Salvagers and Mission Runners would need to adapt, but in the end, I believe that Mission Runners would be affected negatively to a greater extent. That's where I believe the 'balance' issue would cause greater irritation.
*Nod* I understand. I suspect that I feel that the 'negative' impact you predict I would see as positive. I have mostly given up mission running. I'm good at it (in fact very good at it given my low level of SPs) but it's BORING. A little aggro would spice it up.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:41:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
Dotard has mentioned in a number of threads that he does exactly this on purpose (which I happen to think is cool actually).
That's one of the reasons I hired him. That, and the fact that he has an outpouring of personality, which is sometimes hard to find online.
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
I suspect that I feel that the 'negative' impact you predict I would see as positive. I have mostly given up mission running. I'm good at it (in fact very good at it given my low level of SPs) but it's BORING. A little aggro would spice it up.
I'll give you that, Mission Running is boring. I tried it, and haven't gotten past the first level, due to the fact that I quit to pursue other endeavours. As I'd mentioned here or in another (very similar) thread, if I wanted to play against the computer, I probably wouldn't be playing EvE. There's a lot in EvE that has to be improved for me to ever want to play against the machine, and not want to play against the person.
We're Recruiting! |
Kalyan diGriz
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Posted - 2008.08.10 05:47:00 -
[219]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
As a newbie to the game I have only recently started salvaging, and I have not tried the Ninja salvaging scenario described in the original post. I have recently spent several hours combining gurista pirate hunting with the salvaging of abandoned wrecks.
In doing a repeating circuit of spawn sites for pirates, I found at least three clearly abandoned wrecks for every pirate located. When I logged off after a couple of hours of repeating the same circuit I had left behind dozens of yellow containers. It is very clear to me that the "owners" of the kills had no intention of salvaging or even looting the wrecks.
This is similar to other online games I have played, such as WoW. You go out to harvest critters for the hides and find that someone has simply killed all the good critters in an area and left the bodies unskinned. This is identical to what I have observed on my gurista pirate hunting circuit. Therefor I must vote in favour of wrecks being available for anyone to salvage.
If I understand the conversation on this subject, the Ninja salvager is not subject to attack by the "bad guys" the mission runner is taking on. This seems unreasonable. I would suggest that anyone entering the mission area should be subject to attack by the "bad guys". This seems more "realistic" and subjects the Ninja salvager to some of the risk. In WoW, if I follow another player looking to skin bodies he/she abandons, I am still subject to attack by the local critters. Please excuse my ignorance if I have misunderstood the immunity aspect of the debate.
Thank you.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.10 07:36:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 07:36:24
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Originally by: RiseofFilth
2. Taking isk out of my pocket
Yes. So?
You just admitted that you're stealing his stuff. I guess that kinda derails your entire argument.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.10 07:44:00 -
[221]
Originally by: JordanParey
People make us out to be terrible or something.
We are actually quite nice people, and we have fun in corp chat.
Remember:
It's just a game.
That's not true. ISK has real world utility, and requires a significant real-world investment to obtain. The Gamecard market is a great testament to that.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.10 22:06:00 -
[222]
Stupid thread. Leave high sec and go play the real game.
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JordanParey
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.14 00:03:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Kalyan diGriz
If I understand the conversation on this subject, the Ninja salvager is not subject to attack by the "bad guys" the mission runner is taking on. This seems unreasonable. I would suggest that anyone entering the mission area should be subject to attack by the "bad guys".
NPC target me all the time when I warp into missions. I just warp out and wait for the runner to come back and kill them for me :)
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Grismar
Gallente
The Establishment
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Posted - 2008.08.14 15:40:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
I'll make this easy on you. Place an X in the box that is your POV on the matter:
(..)
[ ] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
[ ] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
If I were a member of the CSM, I would ask you to add a checkbox:
[X] The above is a false dichotomy, since it is well possible -not- to support CCP's current ruling and still argue against aggro. Or, for that matter, to feel the mission runner does own the wreck, but aggro is not the best solution here. Ankhesentapemkah more or less picked up on this, for which she deserves credit. It is a false dilemma and as such, the topic deserves more open discussion. I personally feel that middle ground can be found.
For example, if a mission runner would be able to configure whether or not their wrecks are open for salvaging, the cans would clearly show up as free for all or owned on the overview, making the situation clear for all involved. This would require two separate states for wrecks, complicating the game logic somewhat, but not to a great extent.
Another solution would be to have a timer on a wreck, allowing free salvaging after the wreck has been in space for over, say, 15 minutes but resulting in aggro when salvaged before that time. (this would require a serious amount of database bookkeeping though, which is expensive in terms of performance and space)
Even farther outlying options exist, like flat out disallowing the salvage of any wrecks you do not own. Not that I think that is a good idea, but it further serves to show that the choice presented is not all there is to it.
(anyone on their way to the 'quote' button to state that my own logical fallacy here is argumentum verbosium, stuff it ;))
I think the proposed flagging is a bad idea, by the way, for some of the reasons mentioned: the background reason for wreck ownership to be the way it is, the typical non-PvP setup of a salvager, etc. I would say it would be fair to flag the salvager against the wreck owning corp and have present npc's open fire on the salvager. Same with salvaging a player's wreck, flagging the salvager to their corp. This way, salvaging a mission will still be dangerous, except when the mission runner is done and warps off.
Greetings,
Grismar.
Your EVE IGB home: EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator |
Lubimchik
Power Seed Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.14 18:02:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Why does it stop you? You might get criminally flagged to the mission runner making the wrecks but can't you just do it anyway with the slight additional risk of attack from the mission runner who's wrecks you are salvaging ? (or wait until they are gone) I really don't see the problem.
The 'slight additional risk' that you speak of is compounded 100 fold by the fact that the best salvage ship (believe me - I'm an aficionado) is a fast frigate, so going up against a Battleship is a no-win situation for our craft.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I guess I just don't see the problem, if I'm flying through empire and I see a -10 enemy shooting a target and killing a ship and I think I can get away with it I'll ninja-loot the can just to deny it to an enemy of my alliance. This criminally flags me to the person who killed the ship and I am at risk for the deed. What makes salvage a different issue?
Salvaging and looting are two separate things, as per CCP. We have made an investment in the tools required to do this, and some of us are not interested in PvP or conflict, although we deal with it when it is thrust upon us.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Mmm, but it seems you want an income source that sits on the back of somebody else's labour and lets you steal their wrecks without the risk of immediate counter-measures for the theft. I'm a great fan of enhanced pvp opportunity in empire and I can't help but think that allowing mission runners to shoot at people who are taking their wrecks is a good way of promoting this.
A-ha! You've hit it on the head. (No, not the 'income source' part.) You said "taking their wrecks", and this is a misnomer. CCP has stated that the owner of a wreck is the Corp (NPC, NPC Pirate, actual Corp) that made the wreck, so your statement is incorrect.
If a Player blows up another Player, and I then salvage that ship, I would agree to being aggro'd against the owner of the blown up ship (and thus, in a Mission, aggro'd against the NPC Pirate Corp) however, because ownership does not belong to the victor, this is where the issue of change is made.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Why does it destroy you? Thats what I have to ask. Why not just fly a strongly tanked salvage ship that can ninja-loot the mission-runners wrecks anyway even if he or she fires on you?
As I mentioned above, I'm not interested in tanking and flying ships that are not suited to the task at hand. I am interested in making my business as powerful as I can, with minimal intervention, much like those who play the Market do.
If a Mission Runner gets upset, they can Wardec. They can salvage. They can shoot the wrecks. Why would you opt to give them ownership over everything, and adding perhaps 10% to their gameplay, (an arbitrary figure, I know) while removing 90% from mine?
Ok bottom line here,
Your grieving, your stealing players loot knowing that they can take no actions towards you at that time, besides shooting their wrecks which keeps them from getting it.
You do it for the soul fact of just taking the loot from them, you are a leach upon all mission runners and the fact they can not step on you is just annoying!
Any mission runner who does not intend on salvaging wrecks would more then willingly give them to you if you asked.
OMG a war dec? So you can hide in a station, avoid them, or just move to an npc corp? Yeah we all know war decs dont really work unless the other side wants to fight.
You are grasping at straws here just to justify that you are indeed stealing and should not be able to be shot at!
You use things like "Ohh we have in invested in stuff to do this" and "we are not interested in conflict"!
THEN STOP FREAKING STEALING FROM PEOPLE! Use your skills for other things, or ask the missioner if you can have the wrecks!
Stop being lame and leaching off the backs of those who work...
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Dedalus77
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.14 20:24:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Lubimchik
Ok bottom line here,
Your grieving, your stealing players loot knowing that they can take no actions towards you at that time, besides shooting their wrecks which keeps them from getting it.
You do it for the soul fact of just taking the loot from them, you are a leach upon all mission runners and the fact they can not step on you is just annoying![/Quote]
Actually no, ninja salvaging is my profession and I do it to make ISK. Also, salvaging wrecks and looting are two different things. Personally I tend to leave the loot to the mission runners. Sorry you are annoyed but last time I checked "people being annoyed" was not a valid reason upon which to base rules/game mechanics.
Originally by: Lubimchik
OMG a war dec? So you can hide in a station, avoid them, or just move to an npc corp? Yeah we all know war decs dont really work unless the other side wants to fight.
The whole point behind the Suddenly Ninjas corporation is so that we are not hiding in NPC corps and can be wardeced.
Originally by: Lubimchik
THEN STOP FREAKING STEALING FROM PEOPLE! Use your skills for other things, or ask the missioner if you can have the wrecks!
a. As stated repeatedly it is not stealing.
b. Why can't I use my skills for whatever I want? This is EvE.
c. Why should I have to ask permission to salvage the wrecks? They don't belong to anyone and are therefore fair game. Perhaps you could ask me to stop salvaging in your mission, chances are if you do it nicely I will.
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Strom Kryos
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.16 00:06:00 -
[227]
From a purely outside perspective I would say .. the runner put in the time they should reap the rewards.
From my own standpoint Ive run missions and I've trained the skills for probing with great disatisfaction towards finding sites. I've spent the isk to make a build a ship with uber fast scans. I know both sides allthough youll never catch me looting someone elses kill. And yeah no matter how you cut it, it is what it is others ravageing the carcass of your kill.. theft whatever.. thats what it is dont deny it.
All that being said.. sure anyone with any pride is going to take a hit to their ego when some comes by and TAKES away part of their prize. When I'm running mission I can sell the salvage 1-2 times a month for 150-200 mil isk. THATS MY ISK MY SALVAGE MY KILL. Do I salvage every mission.. no maybe 85%. Do I have a major issue if I see 1 person salvaging my mission in 1% of the missions I do. NO!
I havnt run missions in 4 mths or so, but at that time I'd occasionally see someone pop in my mission .. and politely leave. Sometimes they ask if they can salvage, sometimes I so sure.. and pass off the other bms from the 1st couple of stages. Sometimes I'm building rigs and want it myself, or am low on isk and wanting to drain every isk out of every bleeding minutie I can get to play. Ive seen people ask in local.. "does anyone mind if I salvage your wrecks" I've seen plenty nice chats and have even given the ok to do it, and on occasion asked if anyone wanted my bms as I dont have time for the salvage and even said feel free to take the loot.
I think what this comes down to is there are a few that ruin it for all, instead of the mojority getting in a big upheaval about it.. and lets face it the only ones that are going to win are the smacktards causeing the issues cause they want the aggro so they can loot your pve ship.. we should come to a common understanding. I think the mojority would be able to handle it as far as being courtous.. I think the runners need to be more proactive in saying "hey over here, free salvage" and it would go a long way to putting this fire out.
But both sides have to work towards it.. and its the mission runners that will benefit the most out of the cooperation that the salvagers want. Otherwise itll be mission running gank fest or it'll stay the same as is and everyone will just be miserable.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.17 14:23:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Lubimchik
OMG a war dec? So you can hide in a station, avoid them, or just move to an npc corp? Yeah we all know war decs dont really work unless the other side wants to fight.
You miss the point - we fight and we win or we lose. There is no 'hiding', or moving to an NPC Corp. We're Suddenly Ninjas, not whatever Corp you're in.
Originally by: Lubimchik
THEN STOP FREAKING STEALING FROM PEOPLE! Use your skills for other things, or ask the missioner if you can have the wrecks!
Why ask? They're not his or her wrecks? As far as I'm concerned, they're mine. I'm cleaning up space after them.
Originally by: Lubimchik
Stop being lame and leaching off the backs of those who work...
Mission Runners??? Work??? Don't make me laugh.
We're Recruiting! |
Strom Kryos
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.17 15:26:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
You miss the point - we fight and we win or we lose. There is no 'hiding', or moving to an NPC Corp. We're Suddenly Ninjas, not whatever Corp you're in.
You seem more intelligent from your other posts to even bother defending that.. thats an idiots argument, you dont need to stoop to that level :P
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Why ask? They're not his or her wrecks? As far as I'm concerned, they're mine. I'm cleaning up space after them..
That's your opinion I can respect that and to a degree even agree with it.. why let salvage go to waste.
On the other hand if a runner wants the salvage and is going to put forth the time skills and effort ships/mods to salvage and loot the wrecks that THEY put the effort into createing then they should have access to them. Even an idiot can see that side of the argument, and if you can't see and agree to some point that view, I wonder where any of the intelligence from some of your other well thought and worded posts come from?
Originally by: Lubimchik
Stop being lame and leaching off the backs of those who work...
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Mission Runners??? Work??? Don't make me laugh.
While I can appreciate the time skills ships/mods it takes to scan down salvage, this is the work created by the runner and should have some ownership to it.
.. and this really gets me ..
The most boreing part of running a mission is the loot and salvage (yeah thats part of the mission thanks to the big decrease in value of drops and bounty). To say running a mission is such easy work and salvaging is so hard, then why are you salvaging?
The only danger you have is being a complete @@@ and upsetting someone, unless you warp into the mission area while the mission is ongoing. Which in my view is like opening your parents door catching them in the act. Your invadeing their sanctity and embarassing yourself.
Where as being some lame drone shooting ships is actually, taking percision keeping up a tank, shooting the right ships at the right time, and even though you do it time after time, the 1 time you screw up, you loose your ship, no recourse, no vindication, no revenge. Depending on the salvager if npcs get him then the same situation, if it's the mission runner, then you have a chance at getting a much better salvage :P I'm not saying it's overly difficult but if you think salvaging is on any scale more difficult, I can't think of anyway that it is. Both things take time and effort and the risk on either side is looseing your ship, which if someone knows what their doing at either it's pretty much 0 risk.
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Xindi Kraid
Kraid Salvaging
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Posted - 2008.08.17 16:13:00 -
[230]
If people want that salvage and loot then they should pick it up.
If it is left there abandoned then it should be free game. If you truly cared bout the loot then pick it up.
There's plenty of salvagers willing to follow you and run clean up in your wake for a small cut.
If you aren't going to take advantage of these services then don't complain when one of them does this service anyway. Frankly loot shouldn't belong to anyone either. All it is is floating garbage so you shouldn't stand in the way of those who want to collect the garbage.
-So says Xindi Kraid
Dear devs: Sign here
initial here
here
and here |
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.08.23 00:53:00 -
[231]
Wrecks belong to two people:
A - The person who made it.
B - The victim who was just turned into a wreck.
Anyone else touching said wreck in any way = target.
Likewise scooping lost drones (Disconnects & unwarned gang-warps happen) should flag the thief as hostile.
Currently the flagging system, coupled with latency, means that a can thief can (if they're even half sober) can align and warp off before they flag as hostile to the owner of the wreck.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.26 17:24:00 -
[232]
Originally by: I SoStoned
Wrecks belong to two people:
A - The person who made it.
B - The victim who was just turned into a wreck.
Not currently, it doesn't. LOOT belongs to the person who killed the ship but the WRECK belongs to me. (However, in lieu of me actually being there to pick it up, I'll let whoever is fastest pick it up.)
So, just be fast enough to salvage it before I do, and you won't have to cry so much about it.
We're Recruiting! |
Xultanis
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Posted - 2008.09.01 08:14:00 -
[233]
Like all things in Eve there will always be a debate on "To shoot or not to shoot" because honestly this is the only game where if someone is being rude or stupid you just shot their ass to shut them up.
The whole thing on Ninja looters and salvagers. Yes I too have been a victim of this to the point where someone actually looted the mission objective then warped away trying to put a price tag on it. While others come in and clean out all my wrecks without looting them so I don't have kill rights.
Aggro should be given to people who ninja salvage but this in turn brings about a lot of problems where as people will dupe you into attacking them since they looted your wreck. Then instead of ninja salvaging it will be given some fancy new name where the tactic is to get a mission runner to attack the ninja salvager where in turn his buddies will come in and kill the mission runner. Yes everyone would love to be given to the choice to retaliate or not but it could cause a lot of problems down the line where people from different gangs or party accidentally looses a guy and he comes back only to be killed because people were scamming him.
I personally think everyone should be given kill rights the freedom to choose if they want to pursue the ninja. The way things are now though is still manageable also. I think what they should do to fix this mess is to have med and large tractor beams. This way people who run L4 missions in battleships will at least have the CHANCE to loot the wreck. Ultimately people might not want to salvage but I would like to be able to loot my wreck before someone comes in to salvage it losing the loot in the wreck.
CCP has been starting to worry me with a lot of changes that they have been making that look like them catering to noobs since they are getting better and better turnouts with every trail account. I don't want this issue to turn into something else to where this game will be just like WoW, a noob society where the screaming masses of gamers who want to play things in easy mode win.
Addressing this issue is a problem, but I think if a fix should be made then it should be the tractor beams. Have medium and large sizes that range from 45kms to 60kms for mediums and 70 to 100kms for larges. This way everyone can at least have a chance to loot the wreck before someone comes in to take it away from them. Because almost all L4 battles happen with the ships at least 30 to 60kms away and for a BS to fly to all those wrecks is just too time consuming.
They should also release more skill books for mission runners to where we gain an extra percentage extra for every kill that has a bounty. I know there is already a book that does that but at L5 it only gives you about 5 to 20k per kill. If its a percentage then you gain a lot for every BS kill and moderate extra for every frig kill. The extra money however is going to cause inflation which will cause prices for certain items to go up and sooner or later will have to be balanced out so that miners and other types of pilots have ways to make money and arent forced to do missions for money.
All and all those are my 2 cents. Medium and Large tractor beams which doesn't change the game mechanics at all, could at least give mission runners a chance to loot the wreck.
One more thing, if you are a ninja salvager. Ask in local or in convo if you can loot the wrecks. I know a lot of people who really don't want to bother salvaging all that crap. You could find someone who will willingly tell you where they will do missions so that you can salvage and have a steady supply from reliable sources. |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.01 23:00:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Xultanis
Like all things in Eve there will always be a debate on "To shoot or not to shoot" because honestly this is the only game where if someone is being rude or stupid you just shot their ass to shut them up.
I commend you on a very well thought out and respectful post.
Originally by: Xultanis
One more thing, if you are a ninja salvager. Ask in local or in convo if you can loot the wrecks. I know a lot of people who really don't want to bother salvaging all that crap. You could find someone who will willingly tell you where they will do missions so that you can salvage and have a steady supply from reliable sources.
Some do ask, however, some do not. I personally don't, and wait and see how the Mission Runner reacts. There have been days where a Runner has asked nicely for me to leave, and I have. Other days, they've been less than polite, and I've made an example of them.
It really all depends on the day.
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JordanParey
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.04 08:33:00 -
[235]
Is it just me or have several people who posted here joined our corp within the last week? =P
Usually I don't ask to salvage. If they say nothing or target me, then I won't do anything but grab as much as I can. If they are good natured about it, I send them a cut of it back.
I also volunteer my services whenever someone in local offers to let someone salvage. I don't mind splitting the salvage if the loot is good enough.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.18 17:24:00 -
[236]
At the risk of offering kind of odd advice, why don't groups like Suddenly Ninjas simply establish a policy of courtesy and work in tandem with Mission Runners?
If they're jerks, you can still do the ninja thing. If they're courteous, then you can work out an equitable business arrangement.
Going in and starting work without even the courtesy of a convo is going to frequently get someone's back up even if they're ordinarily a nice person (it would mine) but if someone came in and asked politely if they could do the salvaging for a reasonable cut, say 50% or something, I might very well not only let them do it but let them know when I'm running the next mission and gang them so they can come along.
Loot and salvage is boring and a lot of mission runners would love to have that service as long as they were still getting a cut of what they see as 'theirs' (regardless of CCP's designation).
A few such equitable arrangements and everyone, runner and salvage crew alike, will both benefit and make even more ISK as well as probably enjoying the game more and making some friends.
Radical concept, I know but I thought I'd throw it out there.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.18 17:47:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Bagehi on 18/09/2008 17:52:29
Edited by: Bagehi on 18/09/2008 17:49:39
[X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
[ ] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
If they can take something you worked to get, you should at least be able to shoot at them. Why can they salvage and not loot? If anything, this becomes the same as ore thievery. Which is to say "I'm going to **** you off so you attack me, then I will get my big ship and friends to gank you." Benefits everyone.
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Enjia Fullblood
Gallente
Black Serpent Technologies
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.10.02 15:12:00 -
[238]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
why remove a dynamic from a game to appease whiners?
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Malik Mantille
Minmatar
Dark Sun Collective
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Posted - 2008.10.15 04:23:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Enjia Fullblood
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
why remove a dynamic from a game to appease whiners?
Well I'd halt short of calling them whiners, although they definitely border this. The problem is it is a huge misconception that Wrecks = Loot. It is not loot. I saw in an old thread where CCP Prism made some good comments on the subject. Empire space he said, whether a mission spawned DS pocket or otherwise, belongs to Empire, thus probing and entering this space, is not intrusive to the mission runner.
Second, another player in the same thread mentioned other MMOs, while tryign to avoid equating anything to any specific other, I'll still use the common knowledge of WOW (since a larger percentage seems to have this experience) to make the point. If you kill a creature in WoW, you and only you may loot it. However if I come along with the skills to skin the creature, I can skin it, what is left behind is the loot bag, with your loot still in it. This is strangely similar to Eve's method, all except in one way. Rats in missions are not in the commonly accessible area of the world (as in wow you can run by and often see people killing things in open areas) However this is a misconception, missions ARE run in commonly accessible areas, you just need probes to find them. The earlier statement by prism stating that empire space is owned by empire makes this clear, it is no different than happening upon someone by walking by them slaughtering a tiger and skinning the kill for yourself (which has no repercussions) as to probing a mission runner down and salvaging the wrecks from that which he's killed.
I've played eve for a long time, I was here during the closed beta when we didn't even have autopilot and had to use a third party app to find the route in which would take us where we wished to go. Probes weren't around, and when you killed something it died into a can. The loot tables have not changed much in the last five years. If anything they've gotten better. People routinely make the statement that we are cutting into their "profits" of their missioning. The problem with their assumption here is 2 fold. 1) it's their profits to be had and 2) that it is REALLY a large portion. An example here. if I come across an empty mission after they've completed it, I'll loot everything as well. everything ranging from lots of 100mn MWDs (800k isk) and meta 0(t1)-4 1600mm plates (300-2mil isk) and tons of various high end weapons (in 2 missions I gathered 7 prototype auto cannons alone, around 7.8 mil total) the total salvage from 1 mission is pretty high, but hardly a majority. Even if it was a large portion, before salvage no one complained. Salvage was NOT added to benefit you as missions runners, it was added completely seperate to this, so your complaints are invalid. Mission runners do little but run missions, drinking from a stream of endless isk. Sure those of us who Salvage (I hate the term ninja salvage as it is some what pejorative and in truth, true salvaging involves hunting down those wrecks to salvage, whether another killed them, they crashed on their own, or whatever) did not kill the wrecks, but this doesn't matter, this is what we do, continue your missions, but seriously stop trying to have cake and eat it too.
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Vily
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.15 04:58:00 -
[240]
since this thread got bumped im totally laying down my stance ;p
[x] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
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