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Quick N Easy: Ninja Salvaging vs. Salvage Theft

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Author	Topic
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.26 15:13:00 - [151] Posting in an Epic "Tchell Dahhn" Thread. We're Recruiting!
Sasha Sen	Posted - 2008.05.27 06:37:00 - [152] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Jade Constantine Why does it stop you? You might get criminally flagged to the mission runner making the wrecks but can't you just do it anyway with the slight additional risk of attack from the mission runner who's wrecks you are salvaging ? (or wait until they are gone) I really don't see the problem. The 'slight additional risk' that you speak of is compounded 100 fold by the fact that the best salvage ship (believe me - I'm an aficionado) is a fast frigate, so going up against a Battleship is a no-win situation for our craft. actually, best salvaging ship is either one of the Marauders..... You could salvage his wrecks, and blow up his BS if he shoots at you.
Efdi Tritanium Workers Union	Posted - 2008.05.27 11:57:00 - [153] Originally by: Sasha Sen Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Jade Constantine Why does it stop you? You might get criminally flagged to the mission runner making the wrecks but can't you just do it anyway with the slight additional risk of attack from the mission runner who's wrecks you are salvaging ? (or wait until they are gone) I really don't see the problem. The 'slight additional risk' that you speak of is compounded 100 fold by the fact that the best salvage ship (believe me - I'm an aficionado) is a fast frigate, so going up against a Battleship is a no-win situation for our craft. actually, best salvaging ship is either one of the Marauders..... You could salvage his wrecks, and blow up his BS if he shoots at you. I, for one, enjoy tractoring other people's wrecks. Oh, wait..... _______________________________ Yes, I am an alt. No, I can't post with my main; he's forum banned. Yes, I will be happy to smack you with my main when I'm unbanned.
Amarr Holymight Bat Country Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.05.28 03:27:00 - [154] Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 28/05/2008 03:27:23 People still talking in this thread of fail? Beginning to look more and more like the Features and Ideas section.
Drahken Blade	Posted - 2008.06.04 11:34:00 - [155] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Hamfast Unless it is changed so the Salvaged Loot reacts the same way normal loot does... then the rest of us win... Please see one of my earlier posts, where the Ninja Salvager returns in a PvP ship to blow your PvE Ship away. Game... Set... Match. i get a kick out of this i am going to assume that with your defence on this you are a ninja salvager. so let me put it in my view or ya once, i have flipped cans on a regular basis, i do this for 2 reasons, 1 reason free ore, 2nd, once in awhile you get a chance for some pvp in empire, but mostly its for the ore. when i do this i know i put my ship at risk, and believe me i have lost a few, but my point on the subject is this, if you are out can mining, and i warp in to a nice juicy can of ore sitting there and i fly over and slip it, you and your corporation now have the OPTION to pop me whether you do or not is another story but teh "OPTION" is there, now if the miner or miners corp does not engage i cannot fight them or w/e, so they then made the choice not to defend their can, i think mission runners should have same option with their salvage wrecks. and before someone goes on about it i can flip in a frigate sometimes a cruiser, but nothing t2, and overpowering, and we got guys in our home system which is .9 mining with bs gaurds now to defend their cans. that makes it that much more fun, ninja salvaging is just lame not sure how it is fun with no risk but to each his own i guess
Commodore LaChance	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:55:00 - [156] I like Hybrid solution, what Drahken said is one: Give the player the option to defend/not defend is wreck... Also, not to kill the "Ninja Salvaging" profession, I'd like to see the wreck, and the can/loot be "player owned/yellow" for one hour, giving the player the right to defend it and salvaged his "hard earned kill"... Then, after the first hour, the wreck and the can/loot become "white/not owned" for an aditionnal 2 hours or so... Then the "rule of thumb" for the Ninja becomes pretty much, if you can find it (The wreck) and cant wait: Risk it! (Your ship) ... if not wait and see! This game is all about freedom of choices, and the result of those choices!!
Rockstara	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:05:00 - [157] Edited by: Rockstara on 09/06/2008 05:06:37 Edited by: Rockstara on 09/06/2008 05:06:06 Originally by: Commodore LaChance I like Hybrid solution, what Drahken said is one: Give the player the option to defend/not defend is wreck... Also, not to kill the "Ninja Salvaging" profession, I'd like to see the wreck, and the can/loot be "player owned/yellow" for one hour, giving the player the right to defend it and salvaged his "hard earned kill"... Then, after the first hour, the wreck and the can/loot become "white/not owned" for an aditionnal 2 hours or so... Then the "rule of thumb" for the Ninja becomes pretty much, if you can find it (The wreck) and cant wait: Risk it! (Your ship) ... if not wait and see! This game is all about freedom of choices, and the result of those choices!! edit: login cookie deleted content bad plan. You'd have to search out wrecks then come back to them an hour later. Not everyone plays eve for hours and hours on end. Ninja salvagers are already disadvantaged by the fact that they can't tractor beam. The wreck maker can tractor beam. There are so many counters to ninja salvagers, from getting a gang salvager to aggerssion gaining strategem. Giving in to the mission running carebears would reduce mission ruining to mindless farming even moreso than it already is. The game encourages player interaction. Greed is on the mission runners side in the form of salvage evolving into loot stealing. the choice is how do I counter a salvager busting in on my mission - freedom of choices and result of that. This is a tactical choice, and this should be encouraged. For the most part, you don't actually fly your ship, you choose the equipment and skills to fit it - so tactical choices are very limited already.
Jaketh Ivanes Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.06.09 08:40:00 - [158] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 06/05/2008 20:01:51 Alright, Candidates. I'll make this easy on you. Place an X in the box that is your POV on the matter: A Mission Runner gets a mission from his Agent, and takes off into Deadspace, where he/she proceeds to blow up all of the targets. A Ninja Salvager scans out the Mission Runner's location, enters Deadspace, and begins salvaging all of the wrecks. At NO TIME does the Ninja Salvager loot a single can. [ ] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. [ ] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. Feel free to cut and paste the above into your response, and if you would like, provide some verbiage as to your decision. It is NOT necessary to provide this, however, as I feel that the answer speaks for itself. Thank you. [X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:04:00 - [159] This brings a tear to my eye. I've been banned from the forums for 15 days, and when I finally return, my original post is still on the Main Page. Thanks, everyone! We're Recruiting!
no013 Stormwolf Holdings LLC	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:03:00 - [160] [x] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. Ninja Salvager can't tractor wreaks and limited to after burners Above all els mission runners can adapt by bringing more people to help with mission, move to a low or null sec where they can just shoot people if they are annoying or just move to another mission hub. Artillery cannons = Worst Dps, tracking, range and ammo cap. No cap... Why do we need cap for anything els if your sniping.

Calacheng Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.10 01:28:00 - [161] [x] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. The last reply on the 1st page gives very good reasons why Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first salvage is stolen from the salvageable wreck that has the Mission Runners name and/or corp abbreviation on it.
Trabber Shir	Posted - 2008.07.10 02:35:00 - [162] There is an issue I am rather surprised hasn't been brought up (o.k. I skipped some pages and may have missed it). Ninja salvaging is currently restricted to salvaging because it is safe, if people are criminally flagged for salvaging and they have already invested significant skill training and isk into the ability to scan down these missions, they will have no reason not to start looting the cans as well. If ninja salvaging had never been safe and profitable, maybe the suggestion would be a good one. As it is, you will just give people reason to steal anything else of value that might be in your wrecks.
Petra Arkania Minmatar Ajo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.07.10 21:19:00 - [163] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 06/05/2008 20:01:51 [X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. i r piwate too.
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant	Posted - 2008.07.10 23:54:00 - [164] I didn't bother reading the thread tbh. I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that Tchell is owning everyone in debate. Oh, and I THINK that it should stay the way it is with no aggro. But I would LOVE to see it aggro so that I can kill mission runners who shoot me, all day long. Please god make it aggro.
RiseofFilth	Posted - 2008.07.11 06:07:00 - [165] Edited by: RiseofFilth on 11/07/2008 06:09:59 Before I Start, I'm no carebear. I've pirated, I kill people daily, and i enjoy it, so don't slander my name with "Carebear Bull**" [x] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. When someone does a mission, who kills the rats? Who spends time to get the ability to do those missions? Who spends isk to afford ships to take rats out. The missioner does. Ninja salvagers are a SCOURGE on missioners. I salvage every time but strangly enough marauders are EXPENSIVE, maybe i have other things i want to buy than waste a several hunderd mil isk because some * feel the need to come into MY MISSION generated because of hard work I have put into this game. Oddly enough, I cant be in 2 ships at once, and I can't do much salvaging in a raven without sacrificing dps or tank. So whenever you come in m mission, which i might add happens ALL THE DAMN time, you are 1. Taking something that you have put 0 effort in for(OH NO!! THE skills are SOOOO hard to train for, well how about getting some balls and training to do your own missions instead) 2. Taking isk out of my pocket 3. Being a lazy that cant do missions of his own because... well you guess know your own problems, so i hardly need to say them aloud. But this "Class of players" that ccp will be "destroying" if they fix this are theives who reap the benefits of others hard labor and spent isk. Try and help eve!, delete your account and make one that might actually be a productive player rather than an ***. You would save me and others who salvage their missions ALOT of hassle. CCP NEEDS TO FIX THIS so that when some stupid * comes into MY mission, I CAN KILL HIM, and not have half a dozen of his "buddies" try and jump me. Plz Allow me to shoot to kill without having to worry if his buddies are waiting for me to do this. Now, I have no problem with you coming in and ASKING first and salvaging if im ok wit, but you never do that do you. Sry for the rant, its late and stupid people arguing over something that is boils down to one thing. THEFT I bid you good day, unless your a ninja salvager, then you can go ** yourself.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.14 19:55:00 - [166] Originally by: Eternal Error I didn't bother reading the thread tbh. I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that Tchell is owning everyone in debate. You'd be right, and I thank you for your opinion. Originally by: RiseofFilth When someone does a mission, who kills the rats? Who spends time to get the ability to do those missions? Who spends isk to afford ships to take rats out. The missioner does. ...and thank God for you, my friend. Without you, I would be out of a job. (Well, not really, because I'd probably just go do something exciting, like mining, which is so much more interesting that Mission Running.) Originally by: RiseofFilth Ninja salvagers are a SCOURGE on missioners. I salvage every time but strangly enough marauders are EXPENSIVE, maybe i have other things i want to buy than waste a several hunderd mil isk because some *** feel the need to come into MY MISSION** generated because of hard work I have put into this game. Hard work? You didn't just say "Hard Work"?! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Originally by: RiseofFilth Oddly enough, I cant be in 2 ships at once, and I can't do much salvaging in a raven without sacrificing dps or tank. Get friends, or give up that little bit of DPS or Tank. I see other people doing it. Why can't you? Not enough skills? Here's a tip: Train More. Originally by: RiseofFilth So whenever you come in m mission, which i might add happens ALL THE DAMN time, you are 1. Taking something that you have put 0 effort in for(OH NO!! THE skills are SOOOO hard to train for, well how about getting some balls and training to do your own missions instead)= Ok, so your Training is so scary hard, and my Training is so scary easy? Give me a break. You make yourself look stupid by your own explanation. Here's what CCP should do: make you have to scan down your Missions. You couldn't find your ass with both hands, so don't go telling me your Training is any more important. Originally by: RiseofFilth 2. Taking isk out of my pocket Yes. So? Originally by: RiseofFilth 3. Being a lazy ** that cant do missions of his own because... well you guess know your own problems, so i hardly need to say them aloud. I can do Missions just fine. I choose to interact with people, instead of machines. Yes, that's right. I'd rather have a relationship with a real person, than have a Cherry 2000, like you. (Look it up, smart guy.) Originally by:** RiseofFilth But this "Class of players" that ccp will be "destroying" if they fix this are theives who reap the benefits of others hard labor and spent isk. Try and help eve!, delete your account and make one that might actually be a productive player rather than an *****. You would save me and others who salvage their missions ALOT of hassle. Heh. If they ever change the dynamic, we'll just come back and blow up your ships once you take your shot. Go ahead. Change it. I dare you. Originally by:** RiseofFilth CCP NEEDS TO FIX THIS so that when some stupid *** comes into MY mission, I CAN KILL HIM, and not have half a dozen of his "buddies" try and jump me. Plz Allow me to shoot to kill without having to worry if his buddies are waiting for me to do this. What? You obviously don't know how aggro rules work. Must be from only running Missions. (Go ahead. Prove me wrong. You're the scary pirate!) Originally by:** RiseofFilth Now, I have no problem with you coming in and ASKING first and salvaging if im ok wit, but you never do that do you. Rarely, and especially not with nubs like you. Originally by: RiseofFilth Sry for the rant, its late and stupid people arguing over something that is boils down to one thing. THEFT I can't steal what's not yours. Start cleaning up your own mess, Mission Boy. (Oops, sorry. CAREBEAR!) Originally by: RiseofFilth I bid you good day, unless your a ninja salvager, then you can go **** yourself. "Carebear Tears Fuel My Ship!" We're Recruiting!
Dedalus77	Posted - 2008.07.14 20:31:00 - [167] Unless you are going to salvage the wrecks yourself, I'm not sure I see how ninja salvaging is theft of any kind unless I am also looting, in which case you would get aggro. Sure, if you're gonna salvage yourself then I guess I am taking some ISK from you, but otherwise, why do you care so much? (And don't tell me you don't when you go around blowing up your own loot just so I can't salvage it?) I see lots of people comparing ninja salvaging to ore theft, but there's a huge difference: in ore theft I am stealing the item that the producer plans to sell to make isk, when salvaging I am not, you didn't run the mission just to salvage it and I am cleaning up a mess you were going to leave behind. I know I am new to EVE, but I really don't see why mission runners get so bent out of shape about the salvaging, I don't see how it affects them in the slightest.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.14 20:37:00 - [168] Originally by: Dedalus77 I know I am new to EVE, but I really don't see why mission runners get so bent out of shape about the salvaging, I don't see how it affects them in the slightest. I like the cut of your jib! Given any thought to Ninja Salvaging as a profession? We're Recruiting!
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.14 22:32:00 - [169] Originally by: RiseofFilth Edited by: RiseofFilth on 11/07/2008 06:09:59 Before I Start, I'm no carebear. I've pirated, I kill people daily, and i enjoy it, so don't slander my name with "Carebear Bull**" [x] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. When someone does a mission, who kills the rats? Who spends time to get the ability to do those missions? Who spends isk to afford ships to take rats out. The missioner does. Ninja salvagers are a SCOURGE on missioners. I salvage every time but strangly enough marauders are EXPENSIVE, maybe i have other things i want to buy than waste a several hunderd mil isk because some * feel the need to come into MY MISSION generated because of hard work I have put into this game. Oddly enough, I cant be in 2 ships at once, and I can't do much salvaging in a raven without sacrificing dps or tank. So whenever you come in m mission, which i might add happens ALL THE DAMN time, you are 1. Taking something that you have put 0 effort in for(OH NO!! THE skills are SOOOO hard to train for, well how about getting some balls and training to do your own missions instead) 2. Taking isk out of my pocket 3. Being a lazy that cant do missions of his own because... well you guess know your own problems, so i hardly need to say them aloud. But this "Class of players" that ccp will be "destroying" if they fix this are theives who reap the benefits of others hard labor and spent isk. Try and help eve!, delete your account and make one that might actually be a productive player rather than an ***. You would save me and others who salvage their missions ALOT of hassle. CCP NEEDS TO FIX THIS so that when some stupid * comes into MY mission, I CAN KILL HIM, and not have half a dozen of his "buddies" try and jump me. Plz Allow me to shoot to kill without having to worry if his buddies are waiting for me to do this. Now, I have no problem with you coming in and ASKING first and salvaging if im ok wit, but you never do that do you. Sry for the rant, its late and stupid people arguing over something that is boils down to one thing. THEFT I bid you good day, unless your a ninja salvager, then you can go ** yourself. There's this song by Justin Timberlake, called "Cry Me a River". Maybe you should give him ring.
Culmen Caldari Allied Tactical Unit Scalar Federation	Posted - 2008.07.15 05:57:00 - [170] Edited by: Culmen on 15/07/2008 05:59:53 Edited by: Culmen on 15/07/2008 05:58:24 I strongly believe that salvaging should be given an aggression flag Id like to give two examples to illustrate this point. First example, i warp back to my mission, and find a frigate there. Hes salvaged some of my wrecks AND STOLEN LOOT. hes flashing red i jump at this chance, warp back to station fit a ceptor, warp back and pop the thief I warp back, to station and he's undocked with an Abbadon I switch my Nighthawk to a close range PvP fit, and we do a 1v1, in which he only survives by docking. I have had fun, because my preperation has been rewarded, and almost got a kill. He has fun, because he almost ganked a mission running ship, but got out played, he'll be more careful next time, or bring friends. If he brought a gang in, i would have lost my ship, but at least i would have put up a fight. I would have respected that. now lets compare the other situation I dock my onyx in station after low sec pirating. I fire up my Nighthawk and start mission running. i warp out to get my salvage destroyer, and find a heron running around salvaging my wrecks. I start to tractor my wrecks, he changes tactics, by bumping my destroyer, negating my tractor beam advantage. I stop, he runs towards the nearest wreck and salvages more. This is not fun, he violating my wrecks, and I'm not able to do anything. Even though i have a half dozen PvP ship fitted I'm am force to NOT risk any of them to take out his salvage ship. and just force to NOT do anything as he takes my salvage. scorched earth is even more pointless. Hes still taking my salvage, just Im paying missiles so i can loose salvage in another manner. Many of the people talking of aggression, speak as if A) The wreck thief self-destructs when he activates his salvager or B) The mission runner is forced to auto lock and fire all his guns on the salvager. Both are misconceptions The Truth is that aggression flagging is an option for the mission runner. I can eighter let the salvager run with my loot, or risk my ships when he pulls a PvP fit battleship on me. As it stands right now I'm forced with one option. Loose my salvage, thats it. I'm not given a choice, concord forces me to loose my salvage to someone else. With no option to risk anything to take him out. Yes, i know, he could send in a gank squad, to ambush me, but I've accepted that risk in the first example, when i engaged his salvage ship. I am given no such option in the second, so its just frustration. Flagging gives players an option to not defend their wrecks. They can just NOT shoot the salvager But it gives them the option to defend their wrecks with their ships. Is it balanced? YES! Because they now run the risk of a gank squad warping in with 20 guys and blasting them to hell. That being said, i would approve of mechanisms to protect salvagers who have been given the right to salvage by mission runners. The contract or claim staking proposals work well. What i would like to add is this, a simple warning "By engaging this person you are allowing his corp and him to engage you with whatever ships they have for the next 30 minutes, be advised that he may not be working alone and/or may have other more combat capable ships readily available" with a nice tick box to suppress this message in the future Thus if someone got wreck flipped, they would have been warned ------------------------------------------------- Before i post i would like to give yet another real world example, not really related to the rest of my post. Consider this a box inlaid with jewels containing clothes. CCP now says, if a thief breaks into your house, and steals your clothes, you can shoot him. but if he takes a pliers and prys off the jewels he cannot be shot. You protest , they are my jewels! but people on the forums say "NO! he took skills and time and resources to break into your house!", "The jewels are not yours, he needed skill and a pair of pliers to remove them!". _____________________________________________________ Why do i even need a sig?

JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:01:00 - [171] The protecting the salvager "if they ask" idea is great, but your post mostly looked like this: Quote: blah blah blah blah blah blah aggro blah blah battleship blah blah gang blah bla blah blah..sob sob sob. Blah bla blah blah blah blah blah bloopy-bloo blah blah timer bla blah blah blah blah PVP blah blah blah loot. Would you like a whaaaaa-burger to go with those french cries?
YzakJoule Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:18:00 - [172] "I get a kick out of this I am going to assume that with your defence on this you are a ninja salvager" Did this guy even bother to check our corp name?
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:33:00 - [173] probably not. =P Like teh motto says.. Our ships are fueled by carebear tears. If you really want to make more ISK, then leave us the wrecks (they are useless to you, really, unless you are a noob or are building rigs) and go on to another mission. You could make more ISK by flying a higher volume of missions rather than cry about a few skimmed wrecks off the top.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 13:58:00 - [174] Originally by: Culmen Before i post i would like to give yet another real world example, not really related to the rest of my post. Consider this a box inlaid with jewels containing clothes. CCP now says, if a thief breaks into your house, and steals your clothes, you can shoot him. You have the misconception that the Mission Deadspace is yours, which it is not. You are running a Mission in free space, which I can enter and exit without incident. If the Mission Space was yours, I would expect Concord to arrive (like a Police Officer in RL) or, at least, I would expect you to have the option to defend it. This is not the case, making this part of your argument false, and negating the rest as well. Sorry, mate. No dice. We're Recruiting!
Morbid Innuendo Through the Ashes of Empires	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:04:00 - [175] Edited by: Morbid Innuendo on 15/07/2008 15:07:06 [x] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. You cry and that make Morbid laugh. Morbid find this very ammusing. Wahhhh my salvage got eat by ninja!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:45:00 - [176] Originally by: Morbid Innuendo You cry and that make Morbid laugh. Morbid find this very ammusing. Wahhhh my salvage got eat by ninja! I'd like to go on record and say, right now, that I don't actually eat the salvage... I mean, it looks tasty and all, all piled up in my cargohold... We're Recruiting!
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:54:00 - [177] [X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic. Absolutely. Not infrequently the salvage from a ship exceeds the value of the loot and, really when one thinks of it, both are 'things found in a wreck' which technically makes all of it 'salvage' (real world definition not EVE rules definition). The same rules should apply to both. That said, I'd love to see the ability to contract out loot and salvage rights which would keep salvagers in the game as a profession. Lots of folks don't do salvage (there have been times I don't bother although only seldom in Empire) and there are Empire mission runners who have no desire to do so. Contracting those rights for a flat fee or a percentage would be a cool addition to the game. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.15 22:07:00 - [178] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn A-ha! You've hit it on the head. (No, not the 'income source' part.) You said "taking their wrecks", and this is a misnomer. CCP has stated that the owner of a wreck is the Corp (NPC, NPC Pirate, actual Corp) that made the wreck, so your statement is incorrect. If you don't want opinions, you should ask for them. We all know (and in particular the folks from the CSM know) the 'arguments' over 'ninja salvaging'. Yes, we all know what CCP's position was when the system was created and what it, by default history, currently is. The question you are asking is, effectively, "What should it be?" When someone offers up an opinion you come back with all the (very old) arguments the chiefest amongst them being 'CCP made it thus'. Yes, they did. However CCP knows, as do all of us, that not everything they have ever done has been right. So that argument is moot. Those who feel a change is needed feel that CCP was wrong, even if well intentioned, and that the mechanism should change. Hence arguing that the current position is right because it's the current position is simply noise. You would do better arguing why it should remain the current position on its own merits rather than just because it is the status quo. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.15 22:16:00 - [179] Originally by: Had Enough At least do some research on real world ship wrecks and salvage rights. CCP made it this way it wasn't an accident. Why yes, please do exactly that. In the real world anyone who files a claim to a wreck has exclusive rights to that wreck - at least in territorial waters. It gets dicey in international waters as while you can file for rights other countries don't have to recognize them. Now consider that all Empire space (high sec or low) is the 'Territorial waters' of that nationstate. So - the missioner blows the ship up and tags it with his HUD. His computer sends the claim to the nation and he has 'possession'. That must happen or he or she could not claim 'ownership' of the loot. The missioner has the pre-eminent legal claim. In real world salvage ops there is no strange 'division' between cargo and vessel. You get rights to the lot (the only exception being warships which are considered wargraves and property of the nation whose ship it was). If you want to pull the gold out of a Spanish treasure ship and you have the valid claim, you can. Should you want to bring up surviving sections of the ship's hull - those are yours too (assuming that such has survived). So yes, please, do some real research. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Dedalus77	Posted - 2008.07.15 22:32:00 - [180] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom We all know (and in particular the folks from the CSM know) the 'arguments' over 'ninja salvaging'. Yes, we all know what CCP's position was when the system was created and what it, by default history, currently is. You would do better arguing why it should remain the current position on its own merits rather than just because it is the status quo. I can't speak for anyone else but my argument has nothing to do with what things have been historically under CCP, rather my argument is that mission-runners are just going to leave the salvage (or blow it up just to spite me) so it's not theft, unlike ore theft in which the producer of the ore intends to sell it. There is also the matter of the salvaged vessel not actually belonging to the mission-runner (it belongs to the NPC corp it was from in the first place) but I guess that would fall into the "argument from history" which I guess you are saying is not valid.

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