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Sylper Illysten
Ex Coelis
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Posted - 2008.05.08 01:26:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Actually, no. I know how much damage my ship can take and exactly how fast I can evade capture. So no, sorry. No quaking here.
Ah, obviously you didn't notice the sarcasm. Like most salvage theives you most likely are adverse to any negative consequences to your actions.
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
You seem young, or possibly overly agitated at my comments - spelling 'salvage' and 'theif' incorrectly, as you did.
Well you completely fail on that guess, my spelling may not always be perfect, but if you choose to make an erronous assumption, well who am I to correct you?
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Either way, you must be dealing with 'younger' Ninja Salvagers, who are even interested in your noob drop. You should come to my system sometime. We do some nice Ops where we Ninja Loot an entire system worth of cans...
But, you'd probably screw it up, and try to target any one of us before dropping your cloak first. Even then, once the cloak drops and you've tipped your hand - poof! - we're gone.
Well, I guess that's true, salvage theives are the least risk profession out there. I'm personally glad you consider my mission loot noob loot, means you're less likely to try and force me into your style of play and we both stay happy. Then again, next time you find that single abandoned drone in a field of wrecks I might just be waiting for you.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.05.08 11:41:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Sylper Illysten
Well, I guess that's true, salvage theives are the least risk profession out there. I'm personally glad you consider my mission loot noob loot, means you're less likely to try and force me into your style of play and we both stay happy. Then again, next time you find that single abandoned drone in a field of wrecks I might just be waiting for you.
I say that Mission Runners are the least risk, because, they have all the abilities with which to 'know' their victims. I don't know how many Bio's I've read, where people have a 'quick list' of Damage Types by the various NPC characters.
Please. I'm not forcing you into my style of play. I don't force you to try and stop me. However, by changing the rules, you're trying to force me into some type of confrontation.
I think we should all just agree to disagree here. You call salvaging 'theft', and I don't.
Oh, and if you're looking to stroke your ePeen a little more, let me know where and when that drone will be sitting there - I'll be happy to provide you with pickup services, and teach you a little lesson in the process.
We're Recruiting! |
Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.05.08 11:59:00 -
[63]
Riskless? No, because aside from the mission rats (about as much risk as a missioner has; that is none if you know your stuff, more if you don't or just screw up), ninja salvaging ****es people off. People. Not the NPC's of a mission or a belt that can easily be dealt with or avoided, but real people who can potentially make things difficult for you. Or just amuse you with their whines, but the potential is there and on rare occasions manifest itself.
But the reason so many candidates disappoint on the answer to this question is I think twofold. First, I guess most of them, even 0.0 tough guys, rely on or have relied on missions for their income (how often do we not hear from missioners who got beaten to the salvage that we should go to low sec/0.0, the missioner being oblivious to the irony that doing missions in high sec means that he failed at low sec/0.0). Then there is the reason of trying to win votes with the mindless hordes who can't cope with not having everything their way.
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Rocky Kriegel
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Posted - 2008.05.08 12:08:00 -
[64]
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
A majority of the time, these instances happen in Dedspace complexes and most combatants don't have salvage capability anyway. Now, while I believe that it should be proper to ask first, salvaging should not create agro.
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welwyn
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Posted - 2008.05.08 12:08:00 -
[65]
i read in one of the earlier posts that a system of selecting wether you will salvage or not salvage your wrecks. i think this is a great idea. it allows you to salvage those wrecks if you want to and still allows "ninja salvagers" to get wrecks. just my 2 cents.
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M'ing Pai
The Really Awesome Players
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.08 20:32:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Sylper Illysten
Highsec pirates are low life, they use game mechanics to frustrate poeple to the point where they can then use a PVP fitted ship against a PVE fitted ship, usually just for the hell of it. High sec pirates don't want fair fights, they want easy kills, claiming some noble higher purpose is just deluding yourself, you're one of the lowest forms of life in Eve pure and simple.
Salvage theives are no better, currently no risk pure profit, NPC's don't even agro you. Nothing but parasites.
I somehow knew I would get this response from some crybaby, and no response from a candidate, even though I was essentially advocating that mission runners actually get the right to shoot at ninja salvagers. Did you not read my response?
Your tantrum is a prime example of a large reason I've chosen the profession I have.
Here's a thought: when I flag myself to you while you're running your precious mission, I flag myself to not only YOU, but to your entire CORP. You could easily call in reinforcements from the surrounding systems and come gank the wahoozits out of me, and yet you prefer to seek the intellectually dishonest safety of the underdog in that situation. I can't call my corpmates for help. YOU can. I'd say that's a fair tradeoff.
Sorry if you've been ganked by PvPers in your missions. Here's a thought: don't agress them unless you know for a fact you can win. If you leave them be, they'll just be a nuisance for a short time, and then move on to more interesting targets.
Why would you want to flame a highsec pirate who is essentially advocating for your rights? That makes no sense, man. Get a grip and think things through before you start flailing and stomping your feet. Or, you could continue to throw your verbal tantrum, and give me and others like me every reason to hunt you down in game and make your life more interesting.
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Multi Free
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Posted - 2008.05.09 00:29:00 -
[67]
I seriously considered applying for candidacy but for personal reasons and of my "uknown" status to this universe i could not. So i thought i could at least put my 2 cents worth in this discussion.
It seems to me that this topic is not a simple answer whether you should have aggro rights on NSalvagers.
I havent been affected by them yet but i would find it annoying/disheartening to have the wrecks from my mission salvaged by a stranger. A lot of my income from missions is the salvage (not just the loot), the loot in many cases is worth little to nothing.
With respect to both missioners and salvagers i would like to feel that "Missions" done for NPC's is like a timeout place for me when i want to get away from the day to day life of EVE.
But looking at this as a realistic situation of the game mechanics, it kind of makes sense that the game is structured where the player has the right to "almost" do anything in the game. That Deadspace areas are an accessible area of space by any player and so the NSsalvagers have managed to scan out the area and salvage anything/everything in site. I would like to feel that players treat each other with respect in the game, buy once again the game mechanics its designed for good and evil and "annoying" personas and thats the way it is.
Having a flag on wrecks wont help, it would create aggro situations and i get enough of that in high sec Asteroid Belts with pvp'ers taking loot from wrecks to create aggro.
Giving the option to shoot them in your mission, well thats not going to work, before you notice the discussion will change to "getting ganked in missions" and we aren't all part of a large corp to help defend each other.
Tchell Dahhn - maybe you should have applied for candidacy if it was such an important issue for your constituency , and treating candidates with the "no vote for you" line is spoken like a true lobby group, i feel for you, i like to salvage myself and i do that alot but players get the bad end of the stick when features change in eve, to all those players who invested time and isk to train for high level ships only a few months later to have some feature on the ship nerfed is the fact of life in eve.
If it was possible to leave wrecks in space after the mission was completed, that would be nice as i do believe of lot of mission runners don't salvage and if they dont why not let someone else benefit from it.
And on a horrible thought that would disadvantage NSalvagers is to make missions a no go zone for .5-1.0 sec areas "unless" the player is at war with someone or has aggro'd another player. Leaving the NSalvagers with the only two options to take their stuff to low sec (where most lvl-5 missions are available) and gives the right to the missioners to kill anyone who comes into their mission or that NSalvagers hang around station like gold caddys and offer their services to mission runners. As you all have seen there is no easy answer to make everyone happy. Further discussion is needed.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.05.09 00:55:00 -
[68]
Mission running is a boring, boring affair. It is also somewhat broken IMO; you're given an endless supply of NPC Battleships to kill all by yourself in the complete safety of Hi-sec, and never have to move your assets out of a single system for any reason whatsoever.
EVE dosen't get any more singleplayer. Lets not make it moreso pls. Ninja-salvaging is about the only player interaction these people see and a very demanding profession (in terms of skill, patience, effort, etc) compared to mission farmer, so why hurt it?
...
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.09 04:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Ninja-salvaging is about the only player interaction these people see and a very demanding profession (in terms of skill, patience, effort, etc) compared to mission farmer, so why hurt it?
Your wrong about this being a demanding profession. I am constantly "ninja salvaged" by 4 day old, 0.0 security, NPC Corp alts for which I have no recourse aside from suicide attacking (i explain this more exhaustivly on page 2 of this thread).
This would be entirelly different if there was any sort of skill involved or consequence for this action. instead, people have found a "free money" loop hole.
Let me also point out that missions such as Worlds Collide - L4, return easily 15 million in salvage alone, close to the total bounty for the entire mission. soloing this mission can take me and hour and a half - enough time for a 4 day old toon to whip around is his noob-mobile and salvage a good percent of that take - *with no recourse*
again, lets not ban this "profession", lets just make it realistic.
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Sylper Illysten
Ex Coelis
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Posted - 2008.05.09 05:58:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Mission running is a boring, boring affair. It is also somewhat broken IMO; you're given an endless supply of NPC Battleships to kill all by yourself in the complete safety of Hi-sec, and never have to move your assets out of a single system for any reason whatsoever.
EVE dosen't get any more singleplayer. Lets not make it moreso pls. Ninja-salvaging is about the only player interaction these people see and a very demanding profession (in terms of skill, patience, effort, etc) compared to mission farmer, so why hurt it?
I run mission to relax, having people drop into missions with the intention of forcing me into playing their game is not relaxing. You find it boring? Fine, go and play in the sandbox your way, no ones forcing you tor un missions. If you want PvP head out to low sec or 0.0 because ganking mission runners is not PvP, it's easy kills to pad your killboard, nothing more.
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Tiaye
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Posted - 2008.05.09 06:02:00 -
[71]
It is quite simpler as anyonetalks about put as someone said previously a timer on the wrecks and for avoiding those ,oh so courageous guys ,with the big ships,they got out of stealing the salvage someone else worked for, to get coming later to kill you after you got em because they are unhappy they couldnt PARSITE you, a loose in security .This i only propose for high, sec low sec is the place of pirates so i take the risk of ninjasalvagers but high sec should be highsec and not a paradise for lazy people. To those who love to mix game and RL ,the wrecks are by far not so free in RL as you would love it. Its even a lousy excuse . you want to steal take the responsability . I for example salvage after finishing my mission as a lot of others and then someone took all away with the bounty excuse when i fought against empire ,WHAT bounty ? You talk about losses and what is it for the one you robbed, a win ? you are only selfcentered thiefs taking out the multiplayer aspect when it arranges you .Sorry that it got long but i hate hypocrites.
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Allaria Kriss
Minmatar
Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 09:12:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Sylper Illysten
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Mission running is a boring, boring affair. It is also somewhat broken IMO; you're given an endless supply of NPC Battleships to kill all by yourself in the complete safety of Hi-sec, and never have to move your assets out of a single system for any reason whatsoever.
EVE dosen't get any more singleplayer. Lets not make it moreso pls. Ninja-salvaging is about the only player interaction these people see and a very demanding profession (in terms of skill, patience, effort, etc) compared to mission farmer, so why hurt it?
I run mission to relax, having people drop into missions with the intention of forcing me into playing their game is not relaxing. You find it boring? Fine, go and play in the sandbox your way, no ones forcing you tor un missions. If you want PvP head out to low sec or 0.0 because ganking mission runners is not PvP, it's easy kills to pad your killboard, nothing more.
How are they forcing you to play their game, exactly? If I'm there to relax, I'm not going to fret about someone poking around cleaning up wrecks I'm not going to salvage anyway. It's not like this is an occurrence that happens every mission, either - I run missions out of a major mission hub constantly and have only had one ninja-salvager ever (Who also looted, got aggression from my corpmate, came back in a Dominix, and lost a ton of T2 heavy drones because he couldn't kill or catch my Basilisk remote-repping my corpmate's Raven - We exchanged pleasantries afterwards, good fights all around, etc, it was quite refreshing). Days, nay, weeks of missioning and it happened once. Was it annoying? Yes. Was it enough to make me whine on a forum about it? No. All in all, I'd say it's a pretty infrequent occurrence!
Remember too that the mission-runner has sole authority to determine the amount of salvage available to be 'stolen.' The mission-runner determines the rate that wrecks are generated (By killing NPCs), the time those wrecks are generated at (By when he does the mission), and the availability of good salvage (By salvaging on the go or having a friend in a salvager along). If the missioner is too lazy to bother with this, or unwilling or unable to do it, then someone who is willing to use Astrometrics to hunt your mission down is going to do it for you.
Also, I'm not sure where you're pulling 'ganking mission-runners' and 'move to 0.0 noob' into this, this is about salvaging, not low-sec mission-probing PvP. Get your head together and stop insulting people that can probably both outmission AND out-PvP you.
And to the guy complaining about missions against a faction, that's what tags drop for. The tags are your bounty, and you can sell them for a set amount at certain stations of the opposing faction. Salvagers can't nick them without flagging to you anyway.
Have a nice day.
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.09 12:32:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
I run missions out of a major mission hub constantly and have only had one ninja-salvager ever ... [snip] ... Days, nay, weeks of missioning and it happened once. Was it annoying? Yes. Was it enough to make me whine on a forum about it? No. All in all, I'd say it's a pretty infrequent occurrence!
We clearly should have asked if this has happened to you more than once before indulging in a conversation about it.
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
Remember too that the mission-runner has sole authority to determine the amount of salvage available to be 'stolen.' The mission-runner determines the rate that wrecks are generated (By killing NPCs), the time those wrecks are generated at (By when he does the mission), and the availability of good salvage (By salvaging on the go or having a friend in a salvager along). If the missioner is too lazy to bother with this, or unwilling or unable to do it, then someone who is willing to use Astrometrics to hunt your mission down is going to do it for you.
This part here is mostly hot air. I could argue about how long it takes or if the mission is blitzed or not, but this still misses the point entirely.
I will reiterate said point: 4 DAY OLD CHARACTERS CAN MAKE MILLIONS IN AN HOUR WITH NO RECOURSE.
If you think that this loop hole will not grow into a gaping chasm of lame, your a damn fool. It's only a matter of time before mission runners are overrun by a flock of wah-wahs.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.09 12:56:00 -
[74]
Originally by: raylon
4 DAY OLD CHARACTERS CAN MAKE MILLIONS IN AN HOUR WITH NO RECOURSE.
They can scan down your missions that easily? Why not just hire them so that they always have missions and don't have to waste time scanning where they get a cut of the salvage?
Anyway, what is so wrong about 4 day old characters making millions in an hour? Maybe that means that the production is not being fully utilized and you should be getting someone to increase your efficiency by collectively working the missions?
Adding a flag into salvaging is not a huge deal, but its also not the end of the world if it doesn't happen.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.05.09 13:56:00 -
[75]
This endless stream of 4 day old people, who in here think they are new players? Not me. A 4 day old character might be able to scan and salvage with some specific race/background/career combo (haven't checked), but it won't be particularily effective. And if the player behind is actually new, he/she certainly won't be effective at it.
My guess is, if a 4 day old character comes into your mission to salvage, there is another character in a cov ops doing the actual scanning.
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.09 15:27:00 -
[76]
I run missions because I like them and I need the standing for R&D and refining... I loot everything and salvage every wreck for the minerals (if the module is not worth selling) and salvage that I use to build things...
Personally, I don't play to shoot at other people... I have other interests...
Personally, I think the wreck itself should act just like the loot in it... both the wreck and the salvage have value, that value should react the same.
Thus, if I make a NPC Rat into a Wreck, I should own that wreck just like I own the loot... if you loot my wreck, I have the choice to shoot at you... I can choose not to because it's not my cup of tea... if you salvage my wreck, I should be given the choice to shoot at you... again, I can choose not to.
If you pop in to my mission and ask permission, we may be able to come up with an agreement (split the salvage with you?)... This is a multi-player game...
As for the OP, it's obvious that you really did not want an answer to your question, you wanted candidates to agree with you... I hope the replies you got helped you limit your choices on who you will vote for, you did help me limit mine...
--------*****--------
Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter...
So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.09 17:16:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Sigul Siento
This endless stream of 4 day old people, who in here think they are new players?
I didnt say i thought they were new - they are obviously alts.
im pointing out the 4 days for multiple reasons - one of which is the lack of skill needed.
Another thing to mention is that many times, aside from perhaps 2 or 3 items - the loot and salvage values are close to equal (least for higher level missions).
they can take salvage (with no possible recourse) but everything else is different?
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.09 17:19:00 -
[78]
How is everyone missing the point that you can't do anything about this "ninja salvaging"?
I simply don't understand how anyone in a pvp game can side with the idea that theft can go unpunished? without consequence?
that's not pvp - thats stand there and watch your stuff get taken.
its not being a ninja - my gramma would do it as there is no risk (she is not a ninja, just for the record).
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Allaria Kriss
Minmatar
Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 17:22:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Allaria Kriss on 09/05/2008 17:23:47
Now let's think OUTSIDE the mission, too, since wrecks don't just appear in deadspaces.
For any proposed solution to the ninja-salvaging 'problem,' you must consider its effect on:
Belt-ratting (Who owns those wrecks? Can someone in a recon kill rats, cloak, wait for a salvager, then kill them?)
PvP (Who owns what wrecks? Does the killer or the victim have salvage rights? Do they both have it? Would we change loot rules to match the salvage rules?)
Economy (Tightening the aggro rules on salvage may mean less salvage will be generated, meaning higher rig prices and a tighter market).
Scamming (Invite a neutral to come salvage your wrecks, then don't gang them and kill them when they start - New players especially will be vulnerable to this)
General PvP Confusion (The aggression rules are already ludicrously complicated, do we really need to add another nuance that people can exploit?)
Other Issues (Is this a more valuable use of our link to CCP than other pressing topics, or can this be shelved until other things are looked at?)
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Veryez
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Posted - 2008.05.10 01:46:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
Edited by: Allaria Kriss on 09/05/2008 17:23:47
Now let's think OUTSIDE the mission, too, since wrecks don't just appear in deadspaces.
For any proposed solution to the ninja-salvaging 'problem,' you must consider its effect on:
Belt-ratting (Who owns those wrecks? Can someone in a recon kill rats, cloak, wait for a salvager, then kill them?)
Yes, would add a bit of spice to the game - sounds like fun.
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
PvP (Who owns what wrecks? Does the killer or the victim have salvage rights? Do they both have it? Would we change loot rules to match the salvage rules?)
Don't think this will have a big impact, since the PvP has already taken place.
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
Economy (Tightening the aggro rules on salvage may mean less salvage will be generated, meaning higher rig prices and a tighter market).
Possible, making salvage more valuable though will mean mission runners might do more of it.
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
Scamming (Invite a neutral to come salvage your wrecks, then don't gang them and kill them when they start - New players especially will be vulnerable to this)
New players won't have good salvaging skills, and there are many other scams out there. Should we stop those too?
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
General PvP Confusion (The aggression rules are already ludicrously complicated, do we really need to add another nuance that people can exploit?)
Actually they're not, flashing red in highsec - you can shoot. The reason they're flashing red really doesn't matter.
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
Other Issues (Is this a more valuable use of our link to CCP than other pressing topics, or can this be shelved until other things are looked at?)
If mission rewards hadn't been nerfed when wrecks were introduced, you might have a better point. But they were, Loot has almost no value outside minerals, and salvage and bounties make up a significant part of the mission rewards. I think it's fair to say most mission runners feel pretty strongly about taking a 30 to 50% pay cut. Lets not mention the much longer investment in time, salvaging and looting wrecks (as opposed to the old days of looting in a speed setup, dragging a can with 7 tractors pulling in new cans). Sorry this is a pretty significant issue.
Empire mission runners have been nerfed repeatedly throughout the years, the latest being the increase in loot size, requiring multiple warpin's to loot an entire mission (at least the larger ones) unless you've setup a "looting-only" marauder (truely the ONLY use for the Vargur). Sorry this is a hot topic, for many empire dwellers, I think it is very much in the spirit of eve to allow a form of vigilante justice. If I'm dumb enough to engage someone in a PVE setup ship, I deserve to lose it, but if I setup a PvP ship with a salvager or two on it - it's my choice how to react. There's the heart of EvE - giving the players choices.
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Kristrina Belaure
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Posted - 2008.05.10 02:17:00 -
[81]
Quote:
[X] The Ninja Salvager should be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because the Mission Runner owns the wrecks, and I feel that CCP needs to change the current dynamic.
me and my alliance who run missions are sick and tired of ninja salvagers, that we always have one person running around salvaging the mission, and that can get quite booring
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Ben Nato
Merchants Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2008.05.10 09:27:00 -
[82]
You pass the wreck of a car at the side of the road. Car's had an accident and can't go anywhere and you salvage it what happens?
You go to a junkyard and you take wrecks there, what happens?
You see burnt out cars at the side of the road and you take from them, what happens?
Can someone please give me an example where 'taking' from or taking the entire wreck doesn't result in you being arrested or 'flagged' for arrest? No you can. The only people who are against this idea are the thieves and people who don't salvage full stop.
Salvaging someone else's wreck is fun and it adds to the knowledge that you're ****ing someone off with them not being able to do a thing about it. Fun for the salvager, not fun for the person who is having to watch there and see the theft.
Tchell you can claim what you want about real life but you lose the argument because in real life you would get arrested 'salvaging' even your own wreck after an accident so the idea that salvage is public domain isn't funny and is pretty ignorant.
My views do not represent those of my corp/alliance and if they don't like them they can self destruct. |
Had Enough
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Posted - 2008.05.10 11:40:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Had Enough on 10/05/2008 11:43:25
Originally by: Ben Nato
You pass the wreck of a car at the side of the road. Car's had an accident and can't go anywhere and you salvage it what happens?
You go to a junkyard and you take wrecks there, what happens?
You see burnt out cars at the side of the road and you take from them, what happens?
Can someone please give me an example where 'taking' from or taking the entire wreck doesn't result in you being arrested or 'flagged' for arrest? No you can. The only people who are against this idea are the thieves and people who don't salvage full stop.
Salvaging someone else's wreck is fun and it adds to the knowledge that you're ****ing someone off with them not being able to do a thing about it. Fun for the salvager, not fun for the person who is having to watch there and see the theft.
Tchell you can claim what you want about real life but you lose the argument because in real life you would get arrested 'salvaging' even your own wreck after an accident so the idea that salvage is public domain isn't funny and is pretty ignorant.
Since when did people go around salvaging car wrecks? Try looking into ship wrecks and salvage rights.
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Grey Shadow
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Posted - 2008.05.10 11:40:00 -
[84]
Hot topic, and one that excites emotions ... but
[X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
Scrap metal is scrap metal.
Now I have run a lot of missions, and know how frustrating this can be, but as much as I dislike it personally, I think it's realistic. Scrap is scrap.
You could even go further and suggest that the loot inside the wrecks is also scrap, but I would hate to see that happen.
So, if you mission in hi-sec, you have to live with this. Salvaging is a profession. Team up with a salvager.
Or, if you want to defend stuff you believe you have a right to, take it to low sec and run missions there. Then you can freely shoot whoever tries to take your wrecks.
Which rather follows onto the idea that I'd like to see a lot in the way of agent expansion, especially into lower sec systems but also in hi-sec, so as to perhaps disperse mission runners a little more throughout the universe, rather than having a hundred poeple all running missions for the same agent.
Andy
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.05.10 12:49:00 -
[85]
I think that the game is more interesting when there are more career options, especially for newer players, and adding this extra degree of risk to the profession would be especially hard on them.
Salvage usually makes a very small proportion of the rewards from a mission (after bounties, isk rewards, lp, loot & standings). It also takes a quite long time to gather it- proportional to the time it takes to run the mission- even in a dedicated ship.
As a result, the best strategy for maximising your isk/hour is to zoom through missions, dealing with only the necessary objectives, ignoring salvage and collecting only the most valuable pieces of loot. If your goal as a mission runner is to generate as much isk/hour as possible, it is irrational to complain about people salvaging in your wake.
This is yet another example of players ignoring opportunity costs; if wreck flagging was added, it'd make mission runners more likely to salvage their own wrecks, while making it much harder to operate as a ninja salvager. Everyone concerned would be worse off, and rigs would become more expensive.
My research services
Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.10 13:38:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
I think that the game is more interesting when there are more career options, especially for newer players, and adding this extra degree of risk to the profession would be especially hard on them.
You think they should remain at zero risk?
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Salvage usually makes a very small proportion of the rewards from a mission (after bounties, isk rewards, lp, loot & standings). It also takes a quite long time to gather it- proportional to the time it takes to run the mission- even in a dedicated ship.
This is simply wrong. Especially when your talking about rogue drones which have no bounty. I also find that I can salvage and loot a massive mission in a very short amount of time, and so can the ninja salvagers who are following me, one step behind, through the mission as im still fighting it.
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
As a result, the best strategy for maximising your isk/hour is to zoom through missions, dealing with only the necessary objectives, ignoring salvage and collecting only the most valuable pieces of loot. If your goal as a mission runner is to generate as much isk/hour as possible, it is irrational to complain about people salvaging in your wake.
Wrong again.
Try running the Worlds Collide L4 with Sansha / Angel and see what you get for salvage. (in excess of 14 million).
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.10 13:58:00 -
[87]
Veryez and others seem to understand the problem quite clearly. I have seen very little which would persuade me otherwise.
Allaria Kriss is right to invoke the fact that this will impact other areas, but i don't think that they are real obsticals to making a reasonable change to wreck ownership and whatnot.
There are also obviously technical hurdles which we can not see because we dont have access to the source code. It may be that adding a pointer to the owner within a wreck instance is a daunting task for CCP.
I am under the impression that this (ninja salvaging) within missions as it is being done now is an unforseen development and perhaps CCP is already considering a change (feel free to let us know).
I also want to again point out that I did make a suggestion as to a "possible" solution. This brainstorm could also be extended to cover tractoring among other things.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.05.10 13:59:00 -
[88]
I'll admit that I'm wrong (in the case of WC) if you can show that the isk/hr from salvaging the mission, after completing it as fast as possible, is better than the isk/hr from completing the mission as fast as possible, without salvaging.
So in addition to the isk you typically gain from salvaging, please provide some more information:- The total isk in bounties
- Total isk from agent
- Value of all LP gained once converted to isk
- Total value of loot gathered during the mission, if any (i.e. the good drops).
- The time it takes you to complete the mission
- The time it takes you to salvage the mission
If the numbers really do add up, I'll eat my words. Of course, this will also depend on social skills to an extent.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.05.10 14:26:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 10/05/2008 14:26:54
Ok - I'll agree that we disagree, and I'm happy to have one of the most talked about threads thus far!
(I'm surprised a Dev hasn't popped by to provide their non-committal answer - and turn the thread pink - heh!)
If you want to change it, Ninja Salvagers will most certainly adapt. We'll all just keep our Corp Cargobay's full of PvP ships, so that when you do shoot at us, you'll pay for it with your ship.
We all know that even the best Mission Runner ship is no match for the best PvP ship, and the same is true the other way around. There's no way a PvP ship is being built up to be 'cap stable', and possibly rigged for extra 'mission-specific' requirements, as it could be lost at any time, and let's be honest - we need to fit that warp scrambler and web that we'll use to keep you in place while we barbecue your expensive ship.
Ninja Salvagers can most certainly adapt. The question is, can Mission Runners?
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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.10 15:39:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 10/05/2008 14:26:54
Ok - I'll agree that we disagree, and I'm happy to have one of the most talked about threads thus far!
(I'm surprised a Dev hasn't popped by to provide their non-committal answer - and turn the thread pink - heh!)
If you want to change it, Ninja Salvagers will most certainly adapt. We'll all just keep our Corp Cargobay's full of PvP ships, so that when you do shoot at us, you'll pay for it with your ship.
We all know that even the best Mission Runner ship is no match for the best PvP ship, and the same is true the other way around. There's no way a PvP ship is being built up to be 'cap stable', and possibly rigged for extra 'mission-specific' requirements, as it could be lost at any time, and let's be honest - we need to fit that warp scrambler and web that we'll use to keep you in place while we barbecue your expensive ship.
Ninja Salvagers can most certainly adapt. The question is, can Mission Runners?
Welcome to the Miners threat... "We get to steal your work and if you do anything about it we pop your expensive ship"...
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