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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 03:12:00 -
[31]
If it's so great, why don't you do it instead of complaining?
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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 03:13:00 -
[32]
Quote: A typical mission runnerĘs salvage ship is a destroyer, 4 salvagers, 4 tractor beams
Also, you know, I haven't really done a whole lot of research on the ins and outs of this career choice the way you clearly have, but I was under the impression that tractor beams don't work on other people's wrecks. |
Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.04 03:14:00 -
[33]
In other news, I look even more forward to flying a Golem in a few months. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.04 03:17:00 -
[34]
Your math fails hard. Your assumptions fail hard.
Your thread fails hard.
Please, try again. |
Faife
Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.05.04 03:18:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Dotard Eight out of ten times I give the runners that option of shooting me. I loot the wrecks as I salvage them.
Sad to report I have not been shot at yet.
Even did it to a gang of 3 runners, a BS and 2 cruisers all in the same corp. Nothing.
*shrugs*
probably cause when most people do that it's too draw aggro for their gang to warp in and start stuff. |
Maglorre
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Posted - 2008.05.04 05:01:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Maglorre on 04/05/2008 05:02:48
Originally by: Faife
probably cause when most people do that it's too draw aggro for their gang to warp in and start stuff.
How cool is that then? Even if you are solo you can steal all the juicy loot as well and rarely get shot at just in case you might have backup.
I think I might go buy myself a covert ops ship and go ninja salvage in Curse |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.05.04 05:27:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Maglorre I think I might go buy myself a covert ops ship and go ninja salvage in Curse
Mmm I will meet you there
But really I did spend my first few weeks in Curse looting from all the rat kills in my starter Noob ship. I find Curse to be safer than empire but its so lonely out there, and when you do find someone they cloak and hide Wish they would at least say hi in local |
Amastat
Caldari Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.05.04 05:45:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Johnathan Mar A miner in high sec can expect to make 20 million in 4 hours (personal experience) provided they know exactly what they are doing and are getting top dollar for their ore and can achieve this after about 3-5 months of training for a hulk and mining augmenting gear. A properly fit hulk will cost about 200 million not counting skills.
That is not necessarily true. A well trained and fitted Hulk can mine up-to 2,000m3/min by itself without gang bonuses or implants, give or take. Mining - Veldspar for example, assuming your refining perfectly and are not being taxed, you will generate a little less than 3,600,000 Tritanium per hour - that amounts at 3.3-3.4 ISK/pu to sell for at the time I am posting right now (Sing Laison).
That translate to 11.8-12.4 million ISK per hour, 47.2-49.6 million ISK at 4 hours.
I myself cannot fly a Hulk, or a Barge, but once in a while for a change or if its too laggy to run missions, I use a Rokh. I can mine at present at a rate of 1,200m3/min by myself in that. That amounts to a little less than 2,150,000 Tritanium per hour, or 7-7.3 million ISK per hour - 28-29.2 million ISK every 4 hours.
About the rest of your article, some of your calculations are probably off - but your point overall is in no way far from the truth - anyone against it is flawed or in denial.
You cannot say that a salvage thief takes virtually no time to train for their profession compared to a miner or a mission runner.
Salvage thieves in no way need to operate outside of high-sec to make their profits, just like the mission runners - however they:
-Do not need to do any work whatsoever to produce the wrecks, they salvage at another's expense - wither it is welcomed or not. -They do not expend any ISK in ammunition costs, except on probes - which is far cheaper to what is spend on L4 missions usually. -Their ships/mods cost next to nothing. -In most cases, a thief will go in and salvage the pocket when all the rats are dead, or being tanked by the mission runner. There is next to no risk of losses due to this. -Salvage does not flag the salvager to be fired on by the mission runner; ZERO consequences. -The thief has to train a small skillset, a mission runner or miner has to train a large skillset. It is therefore far cheaper to be a thief, in terms of time spent and ISK spent on books. -A mission runner has a downtime wait between salvaging because they need to start another mission and kill all the npc's. A thief in a mission-hub has a large supply and only has to endure the wait time of dropping a new probe and waiting for results for new wrecks.
I could list many more things If I wanted to.
All and all, salvage theft is basically noob-gold.
Many salvage thief's who try and fail to defend their case feel mission runners have too much free and riskless ISK. I'm sorry, but the salvage thief's are hypocrites. A book could be written on the reasons on how a salvage thief has it so much easier then a mission runner. I think its obvious they are even more unbalanced in terms of risk vs. reward then the mission runner.
I am about balance - so if CCP actually listens to this topic which they have ignored for a while from what I have seen; they should put a fix on the salvage theft so it is not so incredibly unbalanced - as well as a few fixes on mining/mission running to make the crying thief's hush-up - they are right about that in some ways however they have a lot of nerve to dare to utter the words when they are working a more effortless profession than the mission runners are. |
Seth Ruin
Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2008.05.04 05:56:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Guillome Renard My issue with salvage is that it makes mission running so much more profitable than any other activity that it turns EVE into a one-path game. Once you're into L4 solo you've basically won the game. I think mission kills shouldn't yield wrecks - only belt rats and PvP kills. That'd also fix your concerns about isk farming.
I'm not sure if that is exactly the fix, but the core of the problem I agree with. There is no reason Level 4 missions should be vastly more profitable (and only slightly more dangerous) than other career options. The balance of the game seems to be tipped towards mission runners currently. I expect this will be changing soon, though. |
Had Enough
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Posted - 2008.05.04 06:08:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Had Enough on 04/05/2008 06:14:22
Originally by: Amastat A book could be written on the reasons on how a salvage thief has it so much easier then a mission runner. I think its obvious they are even more unbalanced in terms of risk vs. reward then the mission runner.
I'm not going to go into detail about how easy or how hard it is I'm just simply going to say that crime in EvE pays and crime in EvE is almost easy.
There is no imbalance. Stop trying to compare a ninja salvager to a mission runner or miner they are nothing like each other, there are no similarities, it's pointless saying mission runner does this ninja salvager does that. I can use those kind of comparisons too,
-Freighter pilot worked hard for a year building capital and now carries 5 billion worth of items. -Big Bad Battle Ship blows up Freighter steals all the cargo all it cost him was some missiles.
-Miner mines for months training all the skills to maximize the yield spends hundreds of millions for a Hulk and fittings -1 day old thief comes along in a Badger and steals the jetcan of ore.
See? crime pays in EvE the one who did all the effort doesn't get all the rewards. If you want to keep your salvage then salvage it as you go along or have a friend salvage it as you go along, if you leave your salvage floating around I and many others will take it.
See the comparisons don't matter, just because two pilots chose to do something different it doesn't matter how long it takes them to train the skill it doesn't matter how much it cost them to do what they do all that matters really is who is smart, does their job good and wins and who is dumb, fails at their job and loses. |
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Element 22
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.04 06:22:00 -
[41]
I just want to add in a little note for those of us who aren't cruising around in battleships: Until we reach lvl 4 missions (or maybe even level 3) salvaging IS our income. Sure, we make some off the loot, and the bounties don't hurt, but it's the salvage that let's us get the money we need to keep going.
And yes, I've seen the effects of ninja salvaging, and really there seems to be a very simple answer: Don't end the mission, go back while it's still in deadspace and do it the old fashioned way.
And even though it's been mentioned before, you can't use tractors on other peoples wrecks, and coming from personal experiance (another kind player LET me salvage their mission) it takes FOREVER. Literally, it's still going on from 5 days ago in another universe |
Corduroy Rab
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.05.04 06:56:00 -
[42]
The issue with salvage rights has nothing to do with risk/reward. If you look at a lot of activities in eve the risk/reward is completely out of balance. The issue with salvage is entitlement, mission runners feel entitled to the salvage because they feel that their mission area is their personal, private slice of new eden. However, this is just not the case.
The bounty and loot from a rat does not become yours until you kill the rat, until you do something to transform that resource. As such the salvage from a wreck does not become yours until you preform a transformation on that wreck, using a salvager. Hardly anyone would argue that the bounty and loot from a live rat in space is theirs because they want that bounty, or because they intended to kill that rat. The same holds true for salvaging, the intent to salvage a wreck does not give one ownership over the possible result from that action.
I run level 4 missions and I have had salvagers show up to my missions, I understand the frustration that others feel, I want the isk from those resources. But at the same time it is not necessary to change the rules so that when a player acts in a why that is not geared to my own interests their actions are disallowed.
Frankly, I think most people that are in favor of allowing aggro for someone salvaging the wrecks of rats they did not kill are being very short sighted. Does a salvager coming to your mission site cut your revenues, of course, but is the alternative really better? If aggro was given, you could kill that pesky covert ops ship that showed up to your mission site, but what then? He has the location of your mission and it would be very easy for him to return in a pvp ship and make short work of you, especially if you were stuck tanking rats.
Is losing your CNR really worth the occasional mission profit being reduced by a salvager, or having to drop your efficiency a small amount by salvaging as you go? |
Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.05.04 07:05:00 -
[43]
It doesn't matter how profitable salvaging is as it isn't a problem. NO NEW VALUE IS CREATED BY SALVAGING!
Salvaging doesn't create ISK out of thin air, so it has no negative effect on the game economy. Money is simply moved from one player to another. Supply and demand determine prices.
It is in fact probably the most beautiful part of the EVE economy as it is wholly player driven without any influence from NPC's.
That being said, I still think they should have kept the original skill requirements (Electronics 5 iirc).
Furthermore, if it was as profitable as the OP claims, everyone and their mother would be doing it....
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Toolivus
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.04 07:54:00 -
[44]
Ignoring the glaring errors all through your post, I didn't realise that was nearly so worthwhile. I might just have to dust off my cov-ops.
Thank you, mr whiney op, for telling me that it's worthwhile leaching off you. |
Lt Angus
Caldari Wicked Crew
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Posted - 2008.05.04 08:01:00 -
[45]
Probing out a mission runner who has salvage can take over an hour, most of the time its some guy afk at the gate or an abandoned drone or hes already salvaged or theres aready someone there stealing the stuff |
Sexiest Beast
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.04 08:14:00 -
[46]
Originally by: AstroPhobic Your math fails hard. Your assumptions fail hard.
Your thread fails hard.
Please, try again.
Personally this one summed it up for me.
So many factors wernt considered and so many nublet assumptions were made.
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Freya Runestone
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.04 08:41:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 04/05/2008 07:07:54 It doesn't matter how profitable salvaging is as it isn't a problem. NO NEW VALUE IS CREATED BY SALVAGING!
Salvaging doesn't create ISK out of thin air, so it has no negative effect on the game economy. Money is simply moved from one player to another. Supply and demand determine prices.
You can go further that that. It's actually removing money due to broker fees. :) |
Aki Corrino
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Posted - 2008.05.04 08:41:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: Guillome Renard My issue with salvage is that it makes mission running so much more profitable than any other activity that it turns EVE into a one-path game. Once you're into L4 solo you've basically won the game. I think mission kills shouldn't yield wrecks - only belt rats and PvP kills. That'd also fix your concerns about isk farming.
There is no reason Level 4 missions should be vastly more profitable (and only slightly more dangerous) than other career options. The balance of the game seems to be tipped towards mission runners currently. I expect this will be changing soon, though.
Have you ever tried running lvl 4 missions? or are they too boring for you The only profession making less money is high sec mining, around 15-20m an hour for the average mission runner. Balance tipped towards mission runners? Are you even playing the same game as i am? Mission running hasn't gotten any love since ... forever? Cant say i agree with the OP tho. I'm fine with the 'risk' of salvage theft. |
Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.04 08:43:00 -
[49]
Yeah, the OP is a laugh riot all right.
Something nobody has mentioned is that to cover all the space between wrecks one cannot salvage, you have to use something fairly fast and maneuverable. Which means, every so often you're going to jump into a mission in progress that's going to fry your ship.
It's a fun profession, but you have to keep on your toes, like anywhere else in Eve. And some nights, you probe all night and come home with nothing more than some contaminated lorenzt fluid and a pair of dented Hobgoblin combat drones with space dust in the warp bearings. |
Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.05.04 08:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dark 'Shadow The op's post is so idiotic its not even funny. Besides the fact that you have no clue what anything cost, like the fact that you can fully fit a hulk for 115m easily, not the 200m you said, and make 12m an hour easy just mining veldspar and selling to buy orders
Is there any Veldspar left in high sec?
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Rramar Claime
Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris
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Posted - 2008.05.04 08:59:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Rramar Claime on 04/05/2008 08:58:39 and /signed again
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.05.04 09:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Dark 'Shadow The op's post is so idiotic its not even funny. Besides the fact that you have no clue what anything cost, like the fact that you can fully fit a hulk for 115m easily, not the 200m you said, and make 12m an hour easy just mining veldspar and selling to buy orders
Is there any Veldspar left in high sec?
No. Chribba has it all. |
Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.04 09:26:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Johnathan Mar A typical mission runner’s salvage ship is a destroyer, 4 salvagers, 4 tractor beams, a AB or MWD and maybe some salvage tackle.
A destroyer is roughly 500k A quad of salvagers is 96,000 A quad of tractors is 400k A 1mn AB is 2,000
For not even 1 million ISK you have a fully functional salvage ship. Taking the skill into account is an additional 900k which means your total is about or under 1.9 million.
Ye-e-es…? What's your point (and note my added emphasis in this quote)? What does the cost of the mission runner's salvage ship have to do with this? Especially since you then mention that… Quote: A salvage thief can train for a covert opts frigate, probe launcher, cloaking device, and salvager in about 2 weeks. A properly fit salvage thief ship will cost about 20-25 million.
…it costs quite a lot to be a thief. Quote: The mission runner has to contend with NPC forces that could very well crush his ship
I see this argument quite often, and I can't for the life of me understand it. No they can't. The missions (even at Lvl4) are balanced to be done en masse. The NPCs aren't much of a threat to any sensible mission runner. If they are, then he's either forgotten to turn his tank on (don't AFK), or he's determined to kill everything in sight – even though the mission finished on warp-in – or he's deliberately making the mission hard by not using proper equipment.
Quote: The miner in the hulk has the highest skill requirements out of all the professions and only makes about 20 million a night and only has to worry about the occasional ore thief pirate.
Oh really…? So it takes 3-5 months (according to you) to train for the highest-requirement profession. Well I'm glad to hear that. That means I can be a Mothership pilot some time in August if I start now… |
Zian Tzu
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Posted - 2008.05.04 09:27:00 -
[54]
Are you asking for salvage nerf here ? or just flagging for salvage thieves |
Leina Kubyeshev
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Posted - 2008.05.04 10:03:00 -
[55]
Ships not yielding wreaks doesnt make any logical sense. As soon as CCP starts dumbing down the game by eliminating wreaks the game will lose its realism. Once it starts losing its realism the game isn't worth playing. If a person can make as much money as the author proposes based on wreaks that must physically exist after the destruction of a ship, then by all means congratulations on the profits. If CCP has to do something about farming then, rather than eliminating important parts of the game like you suggest, they should make the salvage less valuable or they should decrease the amount that can be attained from a wreak. NOT ELIMINATE WREAKS ON MISSIONS. Your the one that is "incorrect".
Originally by: Guillome Renard
Originally by: Johnathan Mar or rather 5 million every 10 minutes.
This is incorrect. The time spent probing out mission runners in progress, and then any interruptions while doing so (the MR bails and you get aggro, &c.) should be part of the calculation for pay over time frame.
If it really was 5M every ten minutes, then 8 hours of play would earn you 1.2B per week, which isn't possible.
Your collected data is also incorrect a claim jumper (as I call them) has to use a fast ship with no tractors as they can't tractor wrecks they didn't make. Also? Tractors for 100k?! Where do you shop? They cost 1M in material costs. Did you even look at market prices when you made this?
your point about the cost of a salvage rig is invalid for other reasons - but still, if you're going to make an argument you should do more careful research. Your methods invalidate your findings, which is why you won't be listened to.
My issue with salvage is that it makes mission running so much more profitable than any other activity that it turns EVE into a one-path game. Once you're into L4 solo you've basically won the game. I think mission kills shouldn't yield wrecks - only belt rats and PvP kills. That'd also fix your concerns about isk farming.
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Countess NotFarOut2
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Posted - 2008.05.04 10:17:00 -
[56]
Quote: A friend of mine who routinely uses probes to scan out players in missions in low sec says it takes him about 10 minutes or so and he admits that his skills are crap for such things.
This is so not-true, even with good skills, unless you are very,very lucky every time. Maybe you should analyze probing mechanics before you make statements like that. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.05.04 10:46:00 -
[57]
I smell troll. Yup, there's definetly troll in the air. |
Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.05.04 10:55:00 -
[58]
The claim that ISK farmers could indulge in salvage theft for "safe profit" is hilarious.
There is no shortage of high profit , super low risk activities for ISK farmers in the game. Besides , they have shown zero creativity in their ISK making strategies.
If they knew anything about the game , you highsec L4 runners would live in fear. Just imagine an army of loftiers sending gang invites in broken english , or gibberish named ravens in squads suicide ganking people over and over |
Caiman Graystock
Quantum of Solace
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Posted - 2008.05.04 11:13:00 -
[59]
Sounds a lot like tabloid scare tactics... ninja salvagers = isk farmers, god help us all! |
Darquies Shade
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Posted - 2008.05.04 11:48:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Guillome Renard
Originally by: Johnathan Mar or rather 5 million every 10 minutes.
This is incorrect. The time spent probing out mission runners in progress, and then any interruptions while doing so (the MR bails and you get aggro, &c.) should be part of the calculation for pay over time frame.
If it really was 5M every ten minutes, then 8 hours of play would earn you 1.2B per week, which isn't possible.
Your collected data is also incorrect a claim jumper (as I call them) has to use a fast ship with no tractors as they can't tractor wrecks they didn't make. Also? Tractors for 100k?! Where do you shop? They cost 1M in material costs. Did you even look at market prices when you made this?
your point about the cost of a salvage rig is invalid for other reasons - but still, if you're going to make an argument you should do more careful research. Your methods invalidate your findings, which is why you won't be listened to.
My issue with salvage is that it makes mission running so much more profitable than any other activity that it turns EVE into a one-path game. Once you're into L4 solo you've basically won the game. I think mission kills shouldn't yield wrecks - only belt rats and PvP kills. That'd also fix your concerns about isk farming.
have you seen the prices of rigs? Last time i took a look at the rens hub, they seemed quite expensive. On another note, last time i sold all of my salvage from a lvl 4, i did make millions.
imo it seems that there is a Big demand for salvage. lets keep the mission npc rats to continue leaving wrecks, and lets get more peeps salvaging thier own missions. Personally, half of the time i leave my mission bookmarks at the gate, with a note on the jetcan saying what mission it was and pls take cause i'm logging. |
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