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Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 00:14:00 -
[1]
1. Remove local. 2. Create a cloak disruption launcher for EAFrigs. 3. Create a deployable/destroyable sensor network for sovereign systems that can even locate cloaked ships after a lengthy activation and lengthy delay between uses. 4. Allow communication between the sensor networks within sovereign systems of sufficient ranking and a capital. 5. Expand the overview and solar system maps to accept positional data from the sensor networks. 6. Add warp tunnel detection systems to ships. 7. Nerf focus fire.
The steps above will bring about a strategic element to warfare in Eve and reduce blob warfare a little. By removing local and replacing it with sensor nets, it provides a new target for hostile fleets to attack and a realistic source of intel for those defending their territory. Sensor nets would make perfect sense in Eve, since we obviously have FTL instant communication.
Combine the above changes with the addition of Ambulation, and we can truly be immersed into warfare in space. Create a 3d holographic map in a station room that allows an "admiral" to coordinate incoming sensor net data with their fleet commanders. The sensor net themselves would basically be an upgrade on the camera drone technology, but mass produced with cheap materials. An expensive Sensor Network Command Structure would need to be deployed and guarded like a POS. It would be a dedicated pos just for maintaining and using the sensor net.
The SNCS would act as a command center for the surrounding systems by using warp capable sensor "drones" that fly out in pre-determined patterns to cover an entire system. These drones would be able to be probed out by hostile fleets. By destroying these drones, the SNCS is forced to manufacture and replace them, costing materials and fuel. The speed at which it can replace them however, should be fast enough that a single small gang (10-15 ships) would not be able to take down the entire net. It would require say four or five of those gangs.
To limit blob warfare, focus fire on a single target needs to be nerfed. Realistically, the effects of all the weapons fire, residual heat, flucutations in local space, explosions, debris, and more being thrown up around a target that is under heavy focus fire, will inhibit targeting systems and incoming attacks, acting like ECM/resists. This could be simulated by reducing damage from incoming attacks based on the number of hostiles that have the ship targeted and have attacked within the last twenty to thirty seconds.
Warp tunnel detection systems would allow miners and ratters a few seconds of notification that someone is warping towards them. This warning time can be increased through skills, rigs, maybe even some new modules and ship role bonuses. Obviously, the warning time would need to be balanced with the loss of local as an intel tool in Empire space. Perhaps those with faction standings of 8.0+ can gain access to Empire sensor nets. To prevent alts using them as intel, the access to Empire sensor nets would need to be limited to war targets only and would not disclose the location of anyone with high standing with the Empire whose space they're in. I'm sure there's more that can be added to this by those more knowledgeable than I, but it's a start for discourse. _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
Brun Thorvald
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Posted - 2008.04.28 01:00:00 -
[2]
If every time you got hit your signature radius temporarily decreased, that'd do it.
I dont know when the system checks for the sig radius however - if it does so at the moment of fire, then it's just a matter of checking if the 'just got shot at' button is red (which is itself a database call etc etc, so it's not like this is costless).
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.28 01:17:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Brun Thorvald If every time you got hit your signature radius temporarily decreased, that'd do it.
I dont know when the system checks for the sig radius however - if it does so at the moment of fire, then it's just a matter of checking if the 'just got shot at' button is red (which is itself a database call etc etc, so it's not like this is costless).
Or just have signature radius go down as shields/armor go gown. |
Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 01:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lance Fighter Or just have signature radius go down as shields/armor go gown.
That would help every ship in every engagement, from 1v1 to blobs. The change has to specifically fix focus fire by entire fleets on a single target. |
Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.28 01:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akiama
Originally by: Lance Fighter Or just have signature radius go down as shields/armor go gown.
That would help every ship in every engagement, from 1v1 to blobs. The change has to specifically fix focus fire by entire fleets on a single target.
Meh.
I see your point... but tbh...
Lets say for a moment that I have, in naval warfare, a single battleship bombarding an island. Now I bring in 50 battleships... Should those battleships be doing less damage to something simply because everyone is shooting it? No, as long as they are within range, and have ammo... What does it matter how many ships are shooting something? |
Hannobaal
Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.28 01:51:00 -
[6]
There is absolutely nothing wrong with large fleets ("blobs") except for the lag issue, which I don't think should be solved at the cost of changing fleet warfare. And there is nothing wrong with focused fire. The only thing measures against it would do is make it more difficult to kill large/heavy tanking ships and make smaller ships less useful. Not a good thing.
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Diek Ran
Amarr Autonums
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Posted - 2008.04.28 02:04:00 -
[7]
My imagination (SciFi-Wise) of a large space fleet is still that there are a couple of very large and large ships, and countless mid-sized and small ships.
But in EVE it almost seems to be the other way around sometimes. I don't want to demand something I just want to state it. __________________________________
Originally by: Verlyn
I know it's my own fault, BUT THATS NOT THE POINT!
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.28 02:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Diek Ran My imagination (SciFi-Wise) of a large space fleet is still that there are a couple of very large and large ships, and countless mid-sized and small ships.
But in EVE it almost seems to be the other way around sometimes. I don't want to demand something I just want to state it.
A few titans and countless carriers/mommies/dreads... Yep, sounds like eve!
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wamingo
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.04.28 02:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lance Fighter I see your point... but tbh...
Lets say for a moment that I have, in naval warfare, a single battleship bombarding an island. Now I bring in 50 battleships... Should those battleships be doing less damage to something simply because everyone is shooting it? No, as long as they are within range, and have ammo... What does it matter how many ships are shooting something?
How can you argue realism in a game that has none?
What this game ought to emulate, one way or another, is suppressive fire. If you're taking fire, you're less likely to return accurate fire yourself. Plain obviousness. -- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Falcon Troy
Caldari Awesome People Secret Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.28 02:42:00 -
[10]
Supressive fire tactics don't work in space. There isn't anything to hide behind. You're in a massive starship. |
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.28 02:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: wamingo
Originally by: Lance Fighter I see your point... but tbh...
Lets say for a moment that I have, in naval warfare, a single battleship bombarding an island. Now I bring in 50 battleships... Should those battleships be doing less damage to something simply because everyone is shooting it? No, as long as they are within range, and have ammo... What does it matter how many ships are shooting something?
How can you argue realism in a game that has none?
What this game ought to emulate, one way or another, is suppressive fire. If you're taking fire, you're less likely to return accurate fire yourself. Plain obviousness.
I was just providing an example. Instead, we can take Homeworld as an example. While that game has LOS, its roughly the same: you can get as many ships to shoot at another ship as you have space in space (lol) to fit them all within their optimal ranges. Or... Nexus... Similar to above actually (Nexus have LOS shooting? Ive never noticed... but most of the weapons arnt beam/rapid fire... Then again, the guns might just turn off if something is in the way.)
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Kristoffer
Amarr Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.04.28 03:12:00 -
[12]
Focus fire isn't broken. Don't try to fix it.
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Ed Gein
Society of the Silent
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Posted - 2008.04.28 04:08:00 -
[13]
Focus fire is broken because its not even remotely FUN.
People are right, this is a game, it has no realism, because its supposed to be FUN.
I will admit the last time I was in a fleet battle was in the FOE/MC war ages ago. Back then a major fleet consisted of 200 bs's. Even then, it was laggy, and I had more fun tracking down people that warped off to avoid being called primary. It just seems strange that a game completely revolves around skill, ship setups and tactics until you get about 25 or more on each side, then it just becomes who can call targets faster. Its also ridiculous that a setup you would take into a fleet fight doesn't resemble anything you would ever take into any other part of the game. Hence, I no longer participate and live the wonders of fleet fights vicariously through my friend's stories.
The fundamental problem is there is no ramp up anymore. You are either in a small gang looking for ganks or preparing for an epic lag fest that both sides know is about to happen since spies in the major alliances are a dime a dozen. A certain battle took place today where the masterful move was being able to anchor 4 POS's and get them up and running in a matter of hours. Brilliant.
I guess I will go practice with my legos --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 11:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Falcon Troy Edited by: Falcon Troy on 28/04/2008 02:56:19 Supressive fire tactics don't work in space. There isn't anything to hide behind. You're in a massive starship. Same with under fire accuracy...the guns are computer controlled and don't suffer from fear of death, unfortunately.
Suppression fire is more than just making someone duck and cover. I imagine each eve ship to be crewed by tens, hundreds, and thousands of crew members based on size. I believe canon backs me up in that regard. Pilots are special, in that they "control" the entire ship through an interface. When you select something and click the target button, you're actually sending a neural command through the interface through the ships systems to the computers of living crew members that frantically work to compensate for conditions in space, what's happening, size and speed of the target, etc.
Suppression fire would actually be the crew members being shaken, tossed from their controls, putting out fires, hasty repairs, and more. If a battleship is being blasted by twenty frigates using small scale weaponry, focus fire makes sense. Twenty battleships... with large scale weaponry... that creates a whole crapload of debris, explosions, energy disruptions that every ship's computers and crew have to compensate for.
It makes perfect sense that accuracy on both the target and others attacking it and incoming damage would be affected by all that's going on. While game mechanics say X ship under fire from X * Y amount of same scale weaponry or some other balanced value gains Z amount of damage resistance/sig radius/effective velocity... the reality would be maybe that missile glanced off a large piece of debris and exploded a half second early, losing half of it's damage capability in the process. Or the laser beam is attenuated by residual energy from previous attacks, weakening the beam. (I think that's what attenuated is hehe).
Focus fire is broken. It reduces the enjoyment of the game and fixing it would allow the devs to focus on balancing the ships better. It would require a lot of balancing though, so that one battleship or carrier can permatank entire fleets.
I think in the end, it would be worth it, if rolled out with changes to create more tactical and strategic warfare instead of blobs. _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
wamingo
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.04.28 11:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Falcon Troy Supressive fire tactics don't work in space. There isn't anything to hide behind. You're in a massive starship. Same with under fire accuracy...the guns are computer controlled and don't suffer from fear of death, unfortunately.
Maybe it's controlled by an onboard AI that does fear death. Stop making silly assumptions and references to real life. This game is particularly far from real life.
Suppress (dictionary.com): "to put down by force or authority" It's pretty ambiguous.
If you're being hit, you're less likely to return accurate fire. It's a form of suppression and makes perfect sense in real world terms. The roleplay version: Taking hits shakes the ship/disturbes the ship computer reducing accuracy.
Damage_taken to signature_radius equation may be necessary. Like, big sig means more damage needed to affect your damage output.
_______________________________ -- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Brun Thorvald
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Posted - 2008.04.28 11:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Lets say for a moment that I have, in naval warfare, a single battleship bombarding an island. Now I bring in 50 battleships... Should those battleships be doing less damage to something simply because everyone is shooting it? No, as long as they are within range, and have ammo... What does it matter how many ships are shooting something?
Great. Now, have that island to be an enemy ship, which is moving and doging and jinking and laying smoke (or it's EWAR equivalent).
Next, hide it in a whole heap of explosions.
What, precisely, are you aiming at ?
But, really, we're trying to nerf focus fire, and any excuse will do.
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Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Brun Thorvald But, really, we're trying to nerf focus fire, and any excuse will do.
Heh, I know. You see all the people clamoring that they're "skilled" pvp pilots, when all they do is blob up and focus fire or flit around in nano-f... nano-ships that take no player skill, just lots of isk and character skills.
Nerf focus fire, nerf blob warfare, nerf nano's... and ZOMG! People might actually have to re-learn small fleet tactics and actual large scale fleet movements over a number of systems to engage targets simultaneously. Guess we can't have any lag free fun being brought back into the game. These so-called 0.0 pvp pilots might get their asses handed to 'em. _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
Zaiyo Modi
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:20:00 -
[18]
What is it with the apparantly increasing trend, with people ending their topic description with the three dots like this ...
It comes across to me as childish, possibly rude, unimaginative and pompous.
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Cyriel Longinus
Caldari XERCORE
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:47:00 -
[19]
I know this a little bit off topic ... but if you want to combat lag ... please be on Singularity on the 29th to help test the new network stack. Thank you.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akiama 1. Remove local. 2. Create a cloak disruption launcher for EAFrigs. 3. Create a deployable/destroyable sensor network for sovereign systems that can even locate cloaked ships after a lengthy activation and lengthy delay between uses. 4. Allow communication between the sensor networks within sovereign systems of sufficient ranking and a capital. 5. Expand the overview and solar system maps to accept positional data from the sensor networks. 6. Add warp tunnel detection systems to ships. 7. Nerf focus fire.
<nitpick> All of these, except maybe #4, seem to be aimed at changing very localised, in-system mechanics. As such, none of them really have anything to do with strategy, but rather work on the operational or even tactical level. </nitpick>
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Hannobaal
Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Akiama
Nerf focus fire, nerf blob warfare, nerf nano's... and ZOMG! We will have capital ship online in the extreme as slowly even battleships become obsolete and anyone flying "useless" smaller ships will not be able to participate in any way.
Fixed.
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Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tippia <nitpick> All of these, except maybe #4, seem to be aimed at changing very localised, in-system mechanics. As such, none of them really have anything to do with strategy, but rather work on the operational or even tactical level. </nitpick>
It has plenty to do with strategy. A larger number of small fleets can be used to feint attacks in various systems by attacking the drone nets. Possibly drawing defenders away from the real target of the hostile fleet. If the defenders don't use intel outside of their systems, they could get blindsided and lose their sensor net before they can mobilize to take advantage of it. _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Akiama
Nerf focus fire, nerf blob warfare, nerf nano's... and ZOMG! We will have capital ship online in the extreme as slowly even battleships become obsolete and anyone flying "useless" smaller ships will not be able to participate in any way.
Fixed.
Hey moron. Ever heard of a cyno jammer? =p _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
Havohej
Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:33:00 -
[24]
Strategic Warfare?
The OP's suggestions are mostly tactical in nature, but all interesting ideas nonetheless.
A strategic change, imo, would be fixing wardec mechanics so that industry corp A could pay mercs to wardec industry corp B and disrupt their enterprise without industry corp B being able to corphop between a bunch of corps kept up with placeholder alts to get around it.
Then everybody would have to worry about both Strategy AND tactics, even highsec corporations.
Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
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Hannobaal
Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Akiama
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Akiama
Nerf focus fire, nerf blob warfare, nerf nano's... and ZOMG! We will have capital ship online in the extreme as slowly even battleships become obsolete and anyone flying "useless" smaller ships will not be able to participate in any way.
Fixed.
Hey moron. Ever heard of a cyno jammer? =p
Cyno jammers only keep the attackers, not the defenders from using capitals. And oh yes, your ideas about reducing the effect of focused fire and the importance of numbers will make cyno jammers even more overpowered for defense than they allready are today.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Akiama It has plenty to do with strategy. A larger number of small fleets can be used to feint attacks in various systems by attacking the drone nets. Possibly drawing defenders away from the real target of the hostile fleet.
Still only sounds operational - as in, it only affects one operation ("how to take this system") rather than the strategy ("how to take and keep this region, and the ones connected to it, over a period of several weeks or months").
...and that still leaves some of your points (6 and 7, in particular) as purely tactical changes.
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Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 14:08:00 -
[27]
Well it's not just about overall strategy. It's about revitalizing warfare period. Right now, it's blob vs. blob or nano-hags flitting around and being annoying *******s. The above changes would guide eve warfare back to manageable sizes that would make combat all around more enjoyable for everyone because they would be fair fights without blob lag. _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 22:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hannobaal Cyno jammers only keep the attackers, not the defenders from using capitals. And oh yes, your ideas about reducing the effect of focused fire and the importance of numbers will make cyno jammers even more overpowered for defense than they allready are today.
Yeah, because every corp keeps a stockpile of capitals in every system and jump bridges are freely usable all the time. It adds more strategy into the planning and makes scouts and spies more important. With the changes they could also add hacking as an option to take over a sensor net or even perhaps a cyno jammer if you can get a cloaked scout in range. It would provide far more interesting warfare in New Eden. _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
Hannobaal
Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.28 22:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Akiama and jump bridges are freely usable all the time.
Yes
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Akiama
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.28 23:10:00 -
[30]
So don't hit a system with a jump bridge in it. I don't know all the mechanics behind jump bridges yet, but I doubt they can connect every single sovereign system together. _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle." |
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