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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.27 03:51:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Nyphur
Someone high-up's favourite system is being jumped into because the patch broke cyno jammers? Let's bypass the normal bugfixing procedure and get GMs to declare that POS warfare is offlimits until that one bug is fixed, ignoring other more critical issues. Remember that?
Not sure what to say about the rest of this. But for this point, the bug did not break cyno jammers.
The bug set the RoF on all weapons targeting POS to 0. So anyone shooting a POS could destroy it pretty easily. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.04.27 17:06:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Nyphur
Someone high-up's favourite system is being jumped into because the patch broke cyno jammers? Let's bypass the normal bugfixing procedure and get GMs to declare that POS warfare is offlimits until that one bug is fixed, ignoring other more critical issues. Remember that?
Not sure what to say about the rest of this. But for this point, the bug did not break cyno jammers.
The bug set the RoF on all weapons targeting POS to 0. So anyone shooting a POS could destroy it pretty easily.
From my recollection, the bug yoiu're referring to wasn't that all guns targetting a POS had their ROF dropped to 0, it was specifically a bug with siege modules that reduced the dreadnought's ROF to 0. There were a number of bugs in play and the official word was that some cyno jammers were not working and this was the reason POS warfare was disallowed.
The 0-rof thing was just another of those dozens of bugs like force fields turning off that wasn't part of the decision but should have been. If you can show me strong enough evidence that the 0-rof bug was the primary reason for the POS warfare ban and that it was fixed before POS warfare was allowed again, I'll gladly concede that it was a major contributing factor. Until then, the evidence disagrees. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.27 18:30:00 -
[93]
The reported evidence says nothing except that a specific action would be considered an exploit.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.04.27 18:36:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Nyphur on 27/04/2008 18:37:21
Originally by: Goumindong
The reported evidence says nothing except that a specific action would be considered an exploit.
The reported evidence says that the issues were fixed and then goes on to say that people using ships that were jumped into a system while their cynojammers were broken would be considered to be exploiting. The logical implication of these facts is that one of the issues which was fixed was non-functioning cyno jammers. It makes no mention of 0-ROF dreadnoughts and if eve-search weren't timing out every time I try and search for the old thread on the issue, I think I could prove that 0-rof problem still existed for some time after POS warfare was reallowed.
From memory, I believe that particular issue with 0-rof dreads was not fixed before POS warfare was reallowed and neither were the other critical issues like the force field problems and labs having 0 resists and 1000 HP. If eve-search calms down enough for me to find that thread, I can confirm or deny that memory. However, I suggest that the burden of proof is on you to to show that the 0-rof problem was the sole or main reason that POS warfare was banned. Given the evidence I linked which clearly implies that cyno-jammers were nonfunctional (not destroyed, just nonfunctional) and that this was a big issue which was fixed, I don't think you can prove your assertion.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.27 20:17:00 -
[95]
You're memory is faulty and this is off topic. Though i did indeed forget that jammers et all were broken.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Segge Bolled
Caldari
Dirty Sexy Pilots
New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.04.28 06:11:00 -
[96]
What I would like to know, is whether it was considered to simply lower the amount of Tritanium used to construct Shuttles.
Wouldn't that have potentially increased the price cap (increased, since it seems there is always something which will apply a cap to some degree) markedly, yet without widely compromising player convenience, like simply removing Shuttles has? It certainly seems more sensible then policy akin to going at a nail with a wrecking ball - and knocking down the house across the road by mistake.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.04.28 16:50:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Goumindong
You're memory is faulty and this is off topic. Though i did indeed forget that jammers et all were broken.
The initial post was perfectly on-topic, it's you that's dragged it off course by challenging the validity of one particularly inconsequential fact. And I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim that the 0-rof bug was why POS warfare was banned. Just telling me that my memory is faulty isn't good enough. If you can't find evidence of your previous assertions, they should be considered incorrect until evidence is found.
I found the thread again and my memory is not fauly. The post I was referring to states that 0-ROF dreads were still a problem after the fix. They weren't fixed when POS warfare was re-allowed and were therefore not the bug that they were referring to. ALL evidence suggests that the bug they shut POS warfare down for was specifically cyno jammers not working and there is no evidence that any other bug was fixed, including the 0-rof bug or shield issues. This upholds my original assertion that the devs bypassed normal bugfixing procedure for a specific bug. That suggests to me that the cynojammer bug affected a dev and he sounded the alarm.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.29 00:15:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Tasko Pal on 29/04/2008 00:15:52
Since we're on the subject of shuttles, I suggest CCP both decrease the size of the packaged shuttle (it currently is 500 m3) and the build time (currently I can build somewhat over 500 in about a month on one manufacture slot). In other words, the shuttle occupies about 20 times the volume of its mineral content and builds maybe 3 times as fast as a raven battleship. That's pretty pathetic. In low sec (and in 0.0 of course), it means that it's not too bad to build shuttles in a station with a manufacture line. You bring the trit in and make the shuttles. Slowly of course. But if you need to bring shuttles to other stations? Well a blockade runner might be able to carry 20. And you're going to need an escort for anything else. Only something like a freighter or jump freighter can move significant numbers of these shuttles at a time in low sec. The cargo doesn't seem that valuable to justify the risk. For example, suppose I can sell shuttles for 100k each above the cost of the shuttle. Max skilled freighter can carry almost 2000 shuttles. So that's almost 200 million isk in profit assuming you can sell those shuttles for that high a price. If you can only sell them for 10k profit, then that would be 20 million isk which isn't so bad for high sec, but pretty pathetic for low sec or 0.0. And someone still needs to deliver them to all the stations (which is more a problem in low sec since 0.0 doesn't have that many stations).
My take is that the logistics of making and moving shuttles suck badly at the moment. I don't really care that the shuttle market is less convenient than it used to be. But it should be easier to supply the needs of the Eve community. My recommendation? Increase production time on shuttles by a factor of 10. And decrease the volume of the shuttle by at least a factor of 2. Maybe up to a factor of 10.
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Kimbeau Surveryor
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Posted - 2008.05.04 12:32:00 -
[99]
Hmm. So, if NPC items are to become no longer re-processable, what about station containers? Make them cheaper? Make them transportable when repackaged? It's annoying enough that you can't get rid of them for three weeks, it would be even worse if you just had to trash them... |
Kane85
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Posted - 2008.05.04 19:15:00 -
[100]
one of the dumest ideas to date from ccp; good work you've out done yourselfs once again. making everything player prodused will only mean that peeps will be able to further take hold of the market and mess it up.
you are truely doing a great job at killing eve ccp |
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.05.06 07:30:00 -
[101]
Lemme add my 5 cents; 5 euro cents that is :
Why was there a problem with shuttles?
There were 150.000 available in a station, 9.000 isk each ready to be bought. Their intended use was to make a convenient travel possibility for players. Why was there a need to have 150.000 units on the market anyway? The way I see it whoever decided on the change made a cardinal mistake here. Last time i checked when a NPC order was bought out new sell order replaced it at a higher price. Now, Robotics for example are in much larger demand yet there were up to 22k units available in a batch. If one bought out the batch a new sell order at a higher price replaced it.
One was able to keep the price down by setting up a buy order just above the NPC price and each day when the market order was renewed by the NPC one would buy the resulting supply at a "low" price via the buy order and a new batch instantly appeared on market with a bigger price tag. After some time the price would drop down automatically due to noone else buying the stuff and the buy order would buy again and the circle would go around again and again.
Now shuttles were readily available in batches of 150.000 units which nobody needed for their intended purpose. The amount of shuttles was insanely high compared to the demand so alternative uses of readily available resource were quickly found.
High security is heavily mined out so the price of trit went up. I remember times when one could find 20k omber rocks in .6 and 35k kernite in .5. I havent seen either in well over a year now.
Plus; why would one want to mine and waste time for a marginal gain when there is a moderately priced trit available? During the times of my own 0.0 operations we were importing trit from empire en masse just as everyone else with brain did. We mined Arkonor and Bistot shipped a hauler full of it into empire and in exchange got a freighter full of trit. As long as it was availabe in the billions of units @ 2 isk why not... We were supporting the empire players at the same time. Lately the price of trit went up up up so the demand turned to melting shuttles rather than mining and hauling around highends.
There was an easier way to curb them. Sell 100 units and NOT 150.000 @ 9k and when those are bought out raise price by 10% and when the 100 @ 9.900 sell raise price for 10% again and so on and so forth. This way you cut out the buyers for trit. Speculators buying up the shuttles to ruin the market and make a profit would also quickly find that someone is undercutting them by selling home made shuttles too and bye bye market dominance.
Though i have no idea how the database works so it might be impossible to implement this...
It is too late now.
P.s.
The invisible hand is really great and all but also very cruel. We pay Ç15 a month for a game and having a ready and fast means of transport should be a luxury we have and not something left to the market since it is essential and everyone needs it. Just like water. If privatized...well look at what happened in Bolivia... True, we can travel in a capsule but we can also carry water from a well 6 miles away yet we stick to inhouse running water and see no need to walk 12mi every day for a quick shower.
Next time please, a list of 5 pros and 5 cons as you see it for every change so you know the issue and not just emphasize the good sides while ignoring the negative consequences. Im confident the EVE community can easily digest graphs and cold hard facts rather than hype.
Sorry for negative criticism but i just don't see why you had to kill the cow to get the milk out if there is an easier way to get it out - just pull&squeeze.
-------------SIG STARTS HERE-------------
Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes
Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage. |
Windryder
Caldari
New Fnord Industries
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.05.15 06:43:00 -
[102]
Congratulations, you've just lowered the price cap on Tritanium.
"Lowered? We've freed the Economy! Fly economy, be free!" I hear them cry, "Shuttles getting bought in bulk at 9,000isk and melted down to provide Tritanium at 3.7isk per unit? Stop NPC buy orders! Halt the madness! Free the Economy!"
But it would seem our illustrious Invisible Hand didn't think things through - or at least thought it had more brains than the rest of Eve.
Maybe if the Invisible Hand had put itself in the shoes of your typical entrepreneur it would have had a better view of things on the factory floor. Maybe it might even have saved me from grabbing this metaphor and running too far with it.
Maybe the Invisible Hand might have stopped and asked of the Economy; "What else do NPC stations sell that can be melted down for minerals?"
And this is not a leap - this nerfing of NPC items to remove artificial supply has happened before... something to do with starbase storage silos?
So you thought you had it this time eh? Wrong, because we can still buy Civilian Afterburners in bulk and melt them down. And you know what? Tritanium farmed this way is cheaper than via shuttles.
So third time lucky.
Except next time - remember Civilian Armor Repairers or you'll be going through this all again. It's bad enough that someone discovered that they recycle to cheap Pyerite and have effectively capped that market to 4 or 5 isk per unit.
In fact why not go through all NPC items now (including starbase structures) and calculate where the future price caps are going to be? As a suggestion, why not triple the NPC prices and supply BPOs on the market to seed a player-driven economy?
I think you will find that the player demand for, say, Starbase Control Towers, is so high that it is artificially inflating the value of the ISK itself. Starbase Control Towers are effectively currency in nullsec - as they are firmly linked to the value of real estate. You want real-estate? You buy it using Towers. Can you make your own basic Towers from their minerals? No, you have to pay ISK. So the value of the ISK is directly linked to the value of real estate in Nullsec.
Which is the same relationship that kept the old Deutschmark valuable and powerful.
If you truly want the value of Tritanium to run free then you will have to allow it to be valuable not because of how much a Tower is worth on the NPC market but because you can make Towers with it.
I do not mean to be harsh or unfair to the good doctor but I think that to really appreciate or understand the economy of EvE you have to be immersed in it. I would be honoured to give him a tour.
Dr. Windryder.
(Yes, I am actually.)
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Windryder
Caldari
New Fnord Industries
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.05.15 07:21:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
veldspar was damn close to the best ore to mine in empire, and now theres a damn good chance of it becoming the best choice to mine in empire. not to even mention the ores in lowsec, where veld is still better than most stuff... omber or jaspet anyone?
If you use a calculator like this:
http://eve.grismar.net/ore/index.php
and simply plug in the current Jita prices for minerals you will see the current value of all the refinable ores, per cubic metre mined. This is an important point because for a given mining set-up the value per cubic metre is absolutely proportional to the time spent mining. So the values per cubic metre mined have exactly the same relationship as the values per minute spent mining them.
From here you will see what your time can most profitably be used to mine. You'll notice that Veldspar is already more profitable than everything more common than, and including, Spodumain.
Now think about that. Spodumain is uncommon even in 0.0! And Veldspar is found everywhere up to and including Deep 1.0 Newbie Space.
This isn't a problem that can be fixed by nerfing NPCs or making things more or less common - this is about TIME and maximising it's in-game profitability. The only way to fix this problem is to change the relative profitability of mining ores PER MINUTE.
My simple proposal to solve this particular issue would be to make ALL ores the same size per unit as Veldspar - so they are mined FASTER and thus more attractive to spend your all-too-limited time allowaance on.
But meh - I doubt anyone is listening.
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Forte Hauler
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:40:00 -
[104]
Originally by: floater666
Edited by: floater666 on 20/04/2008 12:55:14
Traveling is already the second most borring thing in EVE after mining, why did you want to force us into noob ships with 3AU warp speed instead of 6AU of the shuttles? I think you guys(DEVS) should make again a reality check that this is a game, and some of the things of a RL economy should not be transcribed to EVE. After all we all have our RL with its good and bad sides, have we?
I KNow!! (Raising Hand)...:)..Conspiracy Theory of the Day....
Because now, new players who start to venture out it will take twice as long to get there so they are more likely to move from a trial account to a real account...this is about economics, but not EVE market, RL CCP bottom line...lol
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Ertai Vodalion
Gallente
LifeLine Solutions
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Posted - 2008.07.14 10:55:00 -
[105]
desperately looking for quarterly econ devblogs Q1 & Q2 2008 - anyone seen them ?
"NPCs no longer sell shuttles" isnŠt an economic devblog - try harder !
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Allvan Harl
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Posted - 2008.07.14 12:32:00 -
[106]
I agree! I'm thirsty for more EVE economic news. Hopefully all the "I hate capitalism" and "The invisible hand is stupid" posters didn't dent our economist's resolve to study and post. I was enjoying the subject thoroughly.
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Callib Gor'Karrithe
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.14 19:09:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Forte Hauler
Originally by: floater666
Edited by: floater666 on 20/04/2008 12:55:14
Traveling is already the second most borring thing in EVE after mining, why did you want to force us into noob ships with 3AU warp speed instead of 6AU of the shuttles? I think you guys(DEVS) should make again a reality check that this is a game, and some of the things of a RL economy should not be transcribed to EVE. After all we all have our RL with its good and bad sides, have we?
I KNow!! (Raising Hand)...:)..Conspiracy Theory of the Day....
Because now, new players who start to venture out it will take twice as long to get there so they are more likely to move from a trial account to a real account...this is about economics, but not EVE market, RL CCP bottom line...lol
I seem to remember a time when we could not "warp to zero" without using specially crafted bookmarks that had to be made for each specific system.
In the end, a potentially "forced" switch from a 6AU to 3AU warp speed still doesnt' slow you back down to that level.
EVE is about adaptation... adapt.
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Cheru'bael
Amarr
Ordo Ministorum
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Posted - 2008.07.17 12:02:00 -
[108]
the lack of quarterly reports, plus the rather surprising jabber about shuttles, reminds me of Life of Brian. I do hope there's another installment of Dr. Eyj='s musings, since it's a much better way to pass the downtime away than reading navel gazing crap like i just did in this thread.
*shrug* ever since 2004 i've found it better to reprocess my shuttles and sell the tritanium, not because of profit, but because the refined amount gave me more than what PLAYERS were buying shuttles for, regionally...and it is still the case. So i see no effect for myself that changed at all, except for a really satisfying feeling that CCP is making it seem as though the economy is more player controlled than npc controlled.
___________________________________________
Ordo Ministorum (backup) |
Cheru'bael
Amarr
Ordo Ministorum
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Posted - 2008.07.18 09:18:00 -
[109]
i take that back. i can sell shuttles for more than what it would give me by refining it into tritanium. that's an improvement. =)
___________________________________________
Ordo Ministorum (backup) |
Callib Gor'Karrithe
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.11 15:43:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Callib Gor''Karrithe on 11/08/2008 15:43:45
So what the hell happened to the QEN, anyways? Another failed experiment?
I thought this Dr. EyjoG was goign to be writing these quarterly?
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Allvan Harl
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Posted - 2008.08.11 22:54:00 -
[111]
Hey CCP - what's the scoop? What happened to the QENs? A lot of us want to know.
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Strom Nekth
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Posted - 2008.08.13 00:28:00 -
[112]
Shouldn't all npc built items be priced according to (a multiple of) the current market value of the minerals that they are made from? Preferably with those minerals actually being acquired by the npc either through missions or purchase orders.
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Callib Gor'Karrithe
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.14 14:29:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Allvan Harl
Hey CCP - what's the scoop? What happened to the QENs? A lot of us want to know.
At this point, it seems to me CCP could just care less. They really like to abuse miners and industrialists. Dangle a cookie over our head and then snatch it away.
I mean... come on, we're more important to EVE than allt he people who like to run around and go "pew pew." You have nothing to "pew pew" with if we don't build shit.... stuff like the QEN helps with more intelligent building. If we can't at least have regular improvements to mining and industry, we shoudl at least have a freaking quarterly news letter to show that we're still loved. Is that too much to ask?
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Allvan Harl
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Posted - 2008.08.18 13:39:00 -
[114]
I would agree - make the prices set based upon the market rather than a static number. However, simply letting the players make the items is more preferable than having the system examine market values and crunch the numbers through a formula. That can be manipulated by other players because the good ole' EVE servers won't know a crappy deal when they they see it (but, for the most part, humans will.) I like what they did. I wish they would follow it up for the other items as well. I've seen other people talking about the civilian shield boosters being the new "buy, reprocess" items now.
As for CCP not caring less, I disagree. There's a ton of work on their plate and not everything gets 100% attention as some think it should. Chewing them out isn't going to help either. Miners aren't the most important part of the EVE universe, but they are an important part, just as the mission runners and the PVPers. Someone has to mine and make equipment, just as someone has to buy it and lose it in a mission or blow it up (pvp) to make sure there's demand for more mining and production.
CCP - what happened to Dr. EyjoG? I still pull out the other two QENs and refer to them. I loved the snapshots on who's flying what, how the skills are broken down by race, skill point and money amounts across the player base and the economic snapshots on items in general: ore, cruise missiles vs torpedos, etc. Is your Economics Program with the professor still on track? Or did he get some other hot project and had to shelve this one? Don't make me get in my Ibis and come looking for some answers...... :-)
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Zukira Al'Kalish
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Posted - 2008.10.01 17:39:00 -
[115]
:(
No QEN anymore, I'm guessing?
I mean... don't get me wrong, I like hearing the good Doctor talk about the economy in all of these interviews and such... but those don't hold a candle to the awesome data found within the QEN's... Was it just one of those good ideas that ended up vanishing? :(
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.10.01 18:33:00 -
[116]
um posting wondering where the quarterly report is.
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Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.10.02 00:08:00 -
[117]
Didnt you hear, its now the annual
(at least thats best guess considering the time the last one was out)
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Icarion
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Posted - 2008.10.04 02:18:00 -
[118]
MAKE ISK A REAL CURRENCY!
I havent thot this out and it may be very nieve but here goes...
What if the ISK had real value in the real world?
Think about it.
Possible?
What would be the ramifications?
It would make Eve that much more real!
The stakes would be high! Eve would be a LITERAL, thriving, "breathing" community.
How about its own soverign RECOGNIZED Country and Government?
LISTEN!
For any Entity to have its own currency in the real world...it would have to be a recognized state or country.
Soverign countries can make up their own currency.
Would, if given the opportunity, CCP create its own real currency...Im talking your online WALLET balance would be hooked to your real world BANK ACCOUNT. Maybe not directly (i dont know, why not) but, maybe via transfer like Paypal does.
THERE IS A SMALL MANMADE STRUCTURE THAT IS AN IT CENTER OFF THE COAST OF ENGLAND THAT IS RECOGNIZED INTERNATIONALLY AS ITS OWN COUNTRY.
Here is wikipedia on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand
This little structure already has a datacenter in it!
It is considered its own country!
IT HAS ITS OWN CURRENCY! CAN SWITCH IT TO ISK!
GOOGLE IS EYEING IT UP!
http://www.sealandnews.com/
ITS STILL FOR SALE!
CCP should find itself the authority to make ISK a real currency on international markets
so people can live off Eve--LITERALLY!
Imagine people in destitute economies who have no means of making a living, getting on Eve and doing so!
Imagine Eve being RECOGNIZED as a LITERAL GOVERNMENT (change name whatever from Sealand) This would be history in the making!
I realize there are all sorts of variables that need to be thot through...but isnt this the
end all of virtual worlds?
Icarion
Here is a bookmark I JUST found the other day for whatever reason! Who Knows!
http://www.lawresearchgroup.com/cart/product.php?productid=154&cat=0&page=1
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Illwill Bill
Minmatar
Scandinavian Carebears AB
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Posted - 2008.10.07 12:45:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 07/10/2008 12:45:50
Nerf necromancers!
It would be better if you created new threads for questions like this.
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