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Selinate
665
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Posted - 2012.02.23 18:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:Filling the short range gapGǪ
Next up is the Gallente CRG-3 Plasma Shotgun. When we added it to the game the shotgun filled a gaping hole in our weapons line up. At the time most of the weapons we had in were semi- to full-automatic with mid to long ranges, but the shotgun gave us a very powerful, short range weapon. It was actually one of our most eagerly awaited weapons on the team, to quote one of the designers, GÇ£shotguns are born funGÇ¥.
What happened when we put it in the game though? As a light weapon, it can be fitted to any dropsuit which makes it very versatile. However, it was those players using Scout dropsuits that really gravitated towards it. Having such a powerful weapon helped them offset their relatively weak armor and shields. They began to use their high speed and maneuverability to get as close as possible as fast as possible with the shotgun and blow their enemy away! Of course, any potential victim in a more heavily armored dropsuit class could potentially fit themselves to soak a portion of the damage done and retaliate with a fistful of death of their own so Scouts still had to stay on their toes!
source
All I have to say is be careful with this. From the sounds of this, you're working towards turning dust 514 into a ****** game. Overpowered shotguns ruin FPS's, especially MMOFPS's. See planetside and the jack hammer. Once they got indoors, the game became so stupidly unbalanced that it wasn't fun to play at all. The same is typically true with games like MW or Battlefield 3.
Just don't screw this up. If you put a shotgun like this that people can use with the lightest armor, this game will be turned into JACKASS 12 YEAR OLD RAMBO RUNS AROUND WITH SHOTGUN all game long. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
365
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Posted - 2012.02.23 18:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
One of my favorite Halo Reach weapons: Assassinations.
Also: Armor lock.
Just sayin'
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
540
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is reminiscent of the Melta gun present in Warhammer 40k: Space Marine. I use it a lot in just the way the DUST shotgun was described to work: run around and try to get into melee range, then 1-shot them. There are very few ways to make yourself Melta-proof without ruining your overall efficiency but there are ways to counter it without outfitting yourself specifically against it, as it has a) a slow fire rate (a dodge at the right moment screws it over) and b) only works at near-melee range (kite kite kite).
I do hope CCP handles the balancing correctly and doesn't make ungodly powerful weapons, be they shotguns, rocket launchers, sniper rifles, etc. There are many factors that go into making a FPS "balanced", and I foresee huge FotM balance problems since it is an ultra-customizable system (like Eve's fitting system). Dramiel, anyone?
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3275
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Depends on the skill tree the dust bunnies use to make thier shotgun kits, the variant of shot gun and ammo useage. (antimatter for even more oumph and even lesser range where you're better off using a knife?
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
1892
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm not sure I see the issue. Shotguns are generally poor outdoors and in medium to long range combat and are supposed to excell in close quarter combat. So them being great indoors weapons is a must or they're basicly broken. |
Hecatonis
Ascension Manufacturing
62
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
then bring your own or clear hallways with explosives.
uber powerful shotguns are only OP when you lack the tools to get around them. a shotgun is made to be one of the most effective weapon in an indoor environment, and if you run around a corner with a rifle blindly you deserve to die.
toss a grenade around first, have someone if very heavy armor take a hit or two then kill the other guy, use a gun that can punch through the wall and solve all your problems.
or, kill them before they get inside, dont let them fight you on terms that benefit them. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
542
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:I'm not sure I see the issue. Shotguns are generally poor outdoors and in medium to long range combat and are supposed to excell in close quarter combat. So them being great indoors weapons is a must or they're basicly broken.
This is also true. They should be "very good" indoors, but they should not be "omgwtfautopwn" weapons. I think the latter was what OP was getting at. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
364
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shotguns on BF3 are long range weapons. JUST SAYIN |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
27
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
I understand the OP's concern, though I got the impression that it would be a semi-auto weapon and not the Gallente AA-12 (which is a relief to me).
I'm more worried about the personal autocannon.
In most every game I have played the recoil gets worse, not easier to manage by mashing R1, I am fairly worried that it will encourage "spray and prayers" to do what they do best and it will reward them for doing so. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3275
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
define 'long rage.'
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3275
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alaekessa wrote:I understand the OP's concern, though I got the impression that it would be a semi-auto weapon and not the Gallente AA-12 (which is a relief to me).
I'm more worried about the personal autocannon.
In most every game I have played the recoil gets worse, not easier to manage by mashing R1, I am fairly worried that it will encourage "spray and prayers" to do what they do best and it will reward them for doing so.
Well thats when you bring a tank to deal with those sort of people or anti-vehciular weapons. hell carpet bomb the guy and hope he dies.
Have to take into consideration how much isk the auto cannon will be spewing out a second.
This autocannon fires a million isk a minute!
From the sounds of how things are going though I think there will be more complaints about tanks with railguns. Sniping infantry.
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Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
31
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
Played another FPS/3rd-PS with 3 slots for weapons - pistol/smg, shotgun/assault rifle, rocket launcher/sniper rifle/ light machine gun / grenade launcher and I've seen every possible permutation for tears.
In indoor maps that are mainly corridors the quickest "levellers" end up with full gear sets and max dps from shotgun, literally shooting up onto gantries and taking people out faster (and from further away) than other weapons in the "targetted-build" method. Sure, there are ways round it bouncing grenades off walls, making sure you are in a pipeline entrance or exit keeping your bearings or running round ready to knife attack.
As for the other weapons; yes targetted builds can be made for absolutely every weapon set, which seems overpowered if you are in the weakest build against it.
BUT - The game is a RMT game and it is still possible to walk into a game straight after logging in and getting first place across both teams.
The shotgun tears will roll, causing persistant nerf-threads. If its done right though (managing the pellets per shot etc) the 99% will have at most 80% chance of walking away victorious in any situation.
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Valei Khurelem
379
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quote:Just don't screw this up. If you put a shotgun like this that people can use with the lightest armor, this game will be turned into JACKASS 12 YEAR OLD RAMBO RUNS AROUND WITH SHOTGUN all game long.
This isn't even the worse part I reckon will happen to Dust, they're already talking about buying armour with ISK etc. and you know what that means? Massive imbalance yet again! Not only are they going to make EVE imbalanced as hell but if they turn this game into an equipment fest where you have to grind ISK or worse *gags* pay for microtransactions to use better equipment than what you can get in game that's going to throw everything and I mean everything to hell.
Why do developers think this is actually a good idea? What makes it so worthwhile driving players away from the game?
"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP." -á - CCP Ytterbium |
JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
38
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
So I went and read the blog, and it pretty much put my concerns to rest on this topic. It's all about the suits; the shotgun in question seems to have been designed so that any suit can use it, however, survivability against the weapon is another matter entirely. Especially when the one using the shotgun has to get in close for full effect.
As I quote from the blog:
Quote:Of course, any potential victim in a more heavily armored dropsuit class could potentially fit themselves to soak a portion of the damage done and retaliate with a fistful of death of their own so Scouts still had to stay on their toes!
More heavily armoured in this context is very ambiguous, it could mean any suit fitted to tank to some degree. And that's why I'm not concerned about it; all the information we've been given thus far says that both vehicles and the dropsuits will have fittings. Fittings we can customise, just like ships in space.
And because of that we can draw similarities: I can fit blasters to my Taranis/Thorax, but it won't make it an unstoppable pwn machine by any length.
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
544
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
JamesCLK wrote: And because of that we can draw similarities: I can fit blasters to my Taranis/Thorax, but it won't make it an unstoppable pwn machine by any length.
You can't hide around the corner with a Taranis/Thorax and wait for an unsuspecting Rifter/Rupture to run into you by accident. Best you can do is gatecamping, and that's still a long ways away they might show up from you. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3275
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Posted - 2012.02.23 19:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Webbing grenades! ruin any shotgunners day.
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JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
38
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Posted - 2012.02.23 20:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:JamesCLK wrote: And because of that we can draw similarities: I can fit blasters to my Taranis/Thorax, but it won't make it an unstoppable pwn machine by any length.
You can't hide around the corner with a Taranis/Thorax and wait for an unsuspecting Rifter/Rupture to run into you by accident. Best you can do is gatecamping, and that's still a long ways away they might show up from you.
I'd argue that it depends a lot on what gate you're camping (regional gates are bad).
But we don't only use gates to hide behind, we use dscan and local to hunt people down, we use probes and warpins and bookmarks to gain an advantage; we bait, hunt and get hunted. Hell, we use cloaks for ambushes sometimes (and Falcon alts ).
And even if it was a gatecamp, what is to say the target might come through in a Rifter or Rupture? What if it's a 720mm anti frigate Hurricane? The Dramiel was OP, but we eventually discovered it got graped by the Celestis of all ships; and then it also got nerfed.
Theorycrafting is all fine and dandy, but it's how the players use the assets CCP give them that's important. I'm sure we'll see campers with cloaks and shotguns but then just bring a counter (heavy drop suit, grenades, whatever); or call for backup; or maybe then do something imaginative and come in the room some other way (or even avoid it entirely). We don't even know what the maps look like yet.
Honestly, whining about people camping doorways is as bad as whining about snipers camping open areas (Alpha Tornadoes on gates with sebos, oh noes). |
Bane Loppknow
Pel Industries
44
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Posted - 2012.02.23 21:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
DUSTies can use shotguns all they want. I'll just nuke them from orbit. |
Degren
The Scope Gallente Federation
43
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Posted - 2012.02.23 21:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ever since they announced mouse/keyboard I've just been cracking up.
If they add a one-shot shotgun like this, sorry. All your planets are belong to me. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3275
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Posted - 2012.02.23 21:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Drop a blaster turret on them!
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
546
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Posted - 2012.02.23 21:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
JamesCLK wrote: I'm sure we'll see campers with cloaks and shotguns but then just bring a counter (heavy drop suit, grenades, whatever); or call for backup; or maybe then do something imaginative and come in the room some other way (or even avoid it entirely).
Just like carebears get killed in Eve and bring the counter of forum-whining and begging CCP to make them safer, right?
It doesn't matter if a tactic is counterable if people are too bad to use the counter.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
Selinate
668
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Posted - 2012.02.23 21:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
JamesCLK wrote:So I went and read the blog, and it pretty much put my concerns to rest on this topic. It's all about the suits; the shotgun in question seems to have been designed so that any suit can use it, however, survivability against the weapon is another matter entirely. Especially when the one using the shotgun has to get in close for full effect.
And this is exactly why these kinds of shotguns should ONLY be used on heavy armors.
The best way I've else seen FPS's play out when it comes to different armor levels is the heavier the armor, the heavier the weapons, period. However, the lighter armors get more special abilities or weapons which make them still very useful in being light armor, but also not ruining the game by unbalancing it.
Otherwise, watch how quickly tactics and any higher order of thought goes out the door when Dust 514 turn into CoD: MW |
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
38
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Posted - 2012.02.23 22:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
That's it....nerf Gallente. |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
143
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Posted - 2012.02.23 22:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:define 'long rage.'
Any first rant post from ganked Hulk pilot. Buff Hybrid Guns!!!! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1039
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Posted - 2012.02.23 22:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Engage webs... fire assault rifle... loot body of equipment and shot gun.
End of problem. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Marcus Harikari
Room Is Empty Enemy-Fleet
28
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Posted - 2012.02.23 23:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Without a super powerful shotgun, a machine gun with a 100-bullet clip, and a 1-hit-kill AWP-type sniper rifle, an FPS just isn't a real FPS. |
JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
39
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Posted - 2012.02.23 23:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
So Battleships should be the only ships able to field frigate blasters, amirite?
Petrus Blackshell wrote: Just like carebears get killed in Eve and bring the counter of forum-whining and begging CCP to make them safer, right?
It doesn't matter if a tactic is counterable if people are too bad to use the counter.
That's not CCPs problem though, that's players being incompetant.
I also don't think the DUST battles that we as capsuleers actually pay for with ISK will be anywhere near the same level of 'free for all' as the quick-match equivalent. |
Marcus Harikari
Room Is Empty Enemy-Fleet
28
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Posted - 2012.02.23 23:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Quote:Just don't screw this up. If you put a shotgun like this that people can use with the lightest armor, this game will be turned into JACKASS 12 YEAR OLD RAMBO RUNS AROUND WITH SHOTGUN all game long. This isn't even the worse part I reckon will happen to Dust, they're already talking about buying armour with ISK etc. and you know what that means? Massive imbalance yet again! Not only are they going to make EVE imbalanced as hell but if they turn this game into an equipment fest where you have to grind ISK or worse *gags* pay for microtransactions to use better equipment than what you can get in game that's going to throw everything and I mean everything to hell. Why do developers think this is actually a good idea? What makes it so worthwhile driving players away from the game? instead of complaining about microtransactions, why don't you just get a job? |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3276
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Posted - 2012.02.23 23:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
or fund said characters with isk from eve?
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
548
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Posted - 2012.02.23 23:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
JamesCLK wrote:So Battleships should be the only ships able to field frigate blasters, amirite? Petrus Blackshell wrote: Just like carebears get killed in Eve and bring the counter of forum-whining and begging CCP to make them safer, right?
It doesn't matter if a tactic is counterable if people are too bad to use the counter.
That's not CCPs problem though, that's players being incompetant. I also don't think the DUST battles that we as capsuleers actually pay for with ISK will be anywhere near the same level of 'free for all' as the quick-match equivalent.
If a majority of players are at "incompetent" level, that is a design problem, or a really hard game. Neither of those bode well for a console game. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
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