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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
173
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 16:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote: So basically you're throwing the entire scenario out of the window and asking me what I'd choose in a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." scenario instead?
I'm saying that's what you were presented with. Hes asking you a very specific question at the end of the OP. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
442
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 16:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote: So basically you're throwing the entire scenario out of the window and asking me what I'd choose in a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." scenario instead?
I'm saying that's what you were presented with. Hes asking you a very specific question at the end of the OP.
I disagree with your interpretation. I believe there are plenty of options in the original scenario and that you can be lead to a positive outcome. Your recent posts have changed said scenario and asked me what I'd do in your alternative no win hypothesis. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
173
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 17:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:A while ago, there was a story of an extremely remote village on a backwater archipelago on a forgotten Federation world. It was inhabited by an indigenous population that found itself at the brunt of religious violence from another indigenous ethnic group.
The village became known to the Federation only after they reported this incident to higher authorities. Local fighting was problematic, so the Federation Army was sent as a peacekeeping force.
However, the village elders decried this as illegal and unwelcome. Having legally-recognized rights in the Federal Charter, they demanded the Army leave. So they did, and the next day, the rival ethnic group launches an offensive on the village and massacres them, burning the entire settlement to the ground.
What do you in this situation? This is a common dilemma when it comes to questions of freedom, this time a question of freedom from interference. Many complain about Federation meddling in their affairs, and rightfully so, but is the opposite worth death?
I am posting this again so that you can read it, with the relevant bit bolded. |
Drasden
Torash Family Holdings
2
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Posted - 2012.02.22 17:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
When the village elders say they don't want the army there, I smile and nod. Then have them incarcerated until everything blows over.
My next step is to send a diplomatic party to the other village, preferably escorted by at least one piece of machinery capable of leveling the entire village within 24 hours. I have the diplomats make it very clear that we want peace, but aren't going to screw around. Doubtless an agreement will be reached, but I will maintain some military presence in both villages regardless until it is clear they intend to follow it.
If they decide to break that agreement, I launch and record an orbital bombardment of the aggressor village.
The next time I am called to settle a dispute between two warring villages, I show them the video. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
443
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 17:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:What do you in this situation? This is a common dilemma when it comes to questions of freedom, this time a question of freedom from interference. Many complain about Federation meddling in their affairs, and rightfully so, but is the opposite worth death? I am posting this again so that you can read it, with the relevant bit bolded.
So we go into the incompetence of the Commander in charge of the Peacekeepers who didn't use all options available to him? I thought the point of this discussion was "What could have been done differently" not "Which do you prefer, to be shot in the face or shot in the back of the head?" Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
173
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 17:16:00 -
[36] - Quote
Drasden wrote:When the village elders say they don't want the army there, I smile and nod. Then have them incarcerated until everything blows over.
My next step is to send a diplomatic party to the other village, preferably escorted by at least one piece of machinery capable of leveling the entire village within 24 hours. I have the diplomats make it very clear that we want peace, but aren't going to screw around. Doubtless an agreement will be reached, but I will maintain some military presence in both villages regardless until it is clear they intend to follow it.
If they decide to break that agreement, I launch and record an orbital bombardment of the aggressor village.
The next time I am called to settle a dispute between two warring villages, I show them the video.
See, this guy? He made a choice. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
173
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 17:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:What do you in this situation? This is a common dilemma when it comes to questions of freedom, this time a question of freedom from interference. Many complain about Federation meddling in their affairs, and rightfully so, but is the opposite worth death? I am posting this again so that you can read it, with the relevant bit bolded. So we go into the incompetence of the Commander in charge of the Peacekeepers who didn't use all options available to him? I thought the point of this discussion was "What could have been done differently" not "Which do you prefer, to be shot in the face or shot in the back of the head?"
It's very clearly "What do you prefer? Intervening even where you aren't wanted, or letting people handle their own affairs unmolested even if the choice they would make is disastrous." |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
443
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 17:22:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:What do you in this situation? This is a common dilemma when it comes to questions of freedom, this time a question of freedom from interference. Many complain about Federation meddling in their affairs, and rightfully so, but is the opposite worth death? I am posting this again so that you can read it, with the relevant bit bolded. So we go into the incompetence of the Commander in charge of the Peacekeepers who didn't use all options available to him? I thought the point of this discussion was "What could have been done differently" not "Which do you prefer, to be shot in the face or shot in the back of the head?" It's very clearly "What do you prefer? Intervening even where you aren't wanted, or letting people handle their own affairs unmolested even if the choice they would make is disastrous."
My understanding of the hypothetical scenario was that you were made unwelcome in the village you were trying to protect, anything you do outside of the village's jurisdiction is not for them to debate, it's not their area you're operating in anymore.
To which case see my reply much earlier on in this discussion.
If you're telling me one village has complete jurisdiction over the planet? Well apart from being somewhat unrealistic (if they had jurisdiction they wouldn't be under threat from a single rival) and the fact you have to act without the benefit of hindsight the choice is simple. You already have an agreement and they ask you to adhere to it, there's no further debate in that position. But I still find the fact one village has the run of an entire planet to be unlikely. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Ares Renton
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
19
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Posted - 2012.02.22 18:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:A while ago, there was a story of an extremely remote village on a backwater archipelago on a forgotten Federation world. It was inhabited by an indigenous population that found itself at the brunt of religious violence from another indigenous ethnic group.
The village became known to the Federation only after they reported this incident to higher authorities. Local fighting was problematic, so the Federation Army was sent as a peacekeeping force.
However, the village elders decried this as illegal and unwelcome. Having legally-recognized rights in the Federal Charter, they demanded the Army leave. So they did, and the next day, the rival ethnic group launches an offensive on the village and massacres them, burning the entire settlement to the ground.
What do you in this situation? This is a common dilemma when it comes to questions of freedom, this time a question of freedom from interference. Many complain about Federation meddling in their affairs, and rightfully so, but is the opposite worth death?
Sounds like your society is about to collapse. Civil wars are going on and your government isn't even powerful enough to intervene. |
Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
241
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 19:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
That kind of decision depends on what you put the emphasis on. Most of them are a specific trait in the equation.
Here is a non exhaustive list of what I consider essential :
- Quantitative mass equality : how many lives will you save and how many will you condemn by getting involved in the conflict ? The base theory here is that any life is equal in value to another one.
- Qualitative elitist disparity : If all lives are not equal and some are more important than others, which decision will protect the highest coefficient/average ?
- Stability and balance : what will cost you the most in terms of stability and social upheaval between the involvement in the conflict against the invading Nation and the decision to remain out of it ?
- Ethical paradoxes : if the Federation defends free will, will you sacrifice your ideals about free will and favor your ideals about justice, or will you do the opposite ? In either case, a part of your ideals are lost.
Eventually though, all these general considerations do not last well in specific cases and scenarios, which are all quite unique and require deeper analysises.
Note : involving in the conflict does not necessarily mean to defend the invaded nation, but this will hold a high probability for said nation to be invaded nevertheless. |
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
173
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 19:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:What do you in this situation? This is a common dilemma when it comes to questions of freedom, this time a question of freedom from interference. Many complain about Federation meddling in their affairs, and rightfully so, but is the opposite worth death? I am posting this again so that you can read it, with the relevant bit bolded. So we go into the incompetence of the Commander in charge of the Peacekeepers who didn't use all options available to him? I thought the point of this discussion was "What could have been done differently" not "Which do you prefer, to be shot in the face or shot in the back of the head?" It's very clearly "What do you prefer? Intervening even where you aren't wanted, or letting people handle their own affairs unmolested even if the choice they would make is disastrous." My understanding of the hypothetical scenario was that you were made unwelcome in the village you were trying to protect, anything you do outside of the village's jurisdiction is not for them to debate, it's not their area you're operating in anymore. To which case see my reply much earlier on in this discussion. If you're telling me one village has complete jurisdiction over the planet? Well apart from being somewhat unrealistic (if they had jurisdiction they wouldn't be under threat from a single rival) and the fact you have to act without the benefit of hindsight the choice is simple. You already have an agreement and they ask you to adhere to it, there's no further debate in that position. But I still find the fact one village has the run of an entire planet to be unlikely.
I am saying that the question has never been about "What would you do to prevent this awful situation" but "How would you handle this awful situation as it occured". Im not digging into insane hypotheticals I cant know anything about without asking Seriphyn extra questions, Im going based off the information he has provided and the question he asked.
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Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
443
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 19:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I am saying that the question has never been about "What would you do to prevent this awful situation" but "How would you handle this awful situation as it occured". Im not digging into insane hypotheticals I cant know anything about without asking Seriphyn extra questions, Im going based off the information he has provided and the question he asked.
I gave you your answer, whichever way the scenario may be. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
173
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 19:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I am saying that the question has never been about "What would you do to prevent this awful situation" but "How would you handle this awful situation as it occured". Im not digging into insane hypotheticals I cant know anything about without asking Seriphyn extra questions, Im going based off the information he has provided and the question he asked.
I gave you your answer, whichever way the scenario may be.
non-interventionism, then? |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
443
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 19:59:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I am saying that the question has never been about "What would you do to prevent this awful situation" but "How would you handle this awful situation as it occured". Im not digging into insane hypotheticals I cant know anything about without asking Seriphyn extra questions, Im going based off the information he has provided and the question he asked.
I gave you your answer, whichever way the scenario may be. non-interventionism, then?
Assuming this single village has the legitimate jurisdiction of the entire planet in their chartered agreement. If that's the case then without the gift of hindsight yes I'd leave, and monitor the situation from outside their jurisdiction. It's all I'm allowed to do in this situation.
Furthermore, I'd let them know that should anything happen we'd be a distress call away. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
FeralShadow
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
53
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 22:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'd have offered extraction services for any members of the community that didn't feel they were represented by the decision to stay and fight without Federation help. I see no reason that innocent people would have to die because of the poor decisions of deluded "leaders". After taking those with me that wanted to go, I would have left, and those people who didn't want my help would have died anyways, without causing innocent casualties. |
Ava Starfire
Teraa Matar
201
|
Posted - 2012.02.23 02:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
Pretty subtle.
I know where this is coming from, and why the "hypothetical" situation was constructed.
How about if that "village" is not within the Federation, but its own entity, its own sovereign nation, who have repeatedly expressed desires to walk on their own two feet?
Might be closer to the point he is hoping to make. |
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