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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Scifi
Caldari Star Scream Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.16 17:15:00 -
[151]
Wow this one is a tough question. On one hand there is TONS of useless junk lying about cluttering things up. On the other it's taking down on the few things that lets you leave a lasting impact on the universe.
The death of the graveyard is harsh though given it's recent news coverage...
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.16 17:19:00 -
[152]
Hey guys. Just want to show that I'm still reading this and talk a bit more about the graveyard which is an issue to you and myself.
I'll be in your face and honest like I always am but I'll make room for a sentence explaining it because I don't feel totally right saying this. The graveyard, in it's current form, is dead. I'll just admit it here and now that I will not listen to any reasons as to why that shouldn't happen. I'm certain a whole lot of you think that is very irresponsible of me as you're the community and customers but you have to understand me on this: "I cannot grant exceptions. I cannot favour one party over the other. Hence I will not."
I'm pleading with you here. I feel like fecal matter for destroying player driven content in it's current form. I could give very detailed technical reasons for why it has to happen but it wouldn't do anyone any favours. I feel like utter crap for destroying the work Azia put into this. I feel like utter crap for assuming the position of 'the man'. The governing body who's saying "It's my way or the highway!". Your points, that I'm ruining persistence of player driven content: It's right. I feel bad. But I cannot make exceptions. I cannot favour one endavour over the other. Ever.
Just to iterate: I wont favour any one person, or her activities, over any other.
I don't say I'm sorry. I never have. I hardly admit that I'm wrong when I obviously am. But I'm truly sorry about this. I should have put a blatant stop to this in the original thread. At least made some contigencies for me to fall back on here, but I didn't. I should have ensured that a feature I knew I'd be scrapping come the first opportunity would not have been highlighted to the players by lore. I should have done many things differently and now I'm in the situation that I have to ruin one persons work to do what I'm payed for. And I don't like it one bit.
And to soothe my pain I'll go out on a limb here. I'll do my best to assist Azia in any way possible. At least to relocate the containers. I have *no* authority to say this and I will have to check with my superiors and coworkers before I can do anything. But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems.
But please. Stop asking for things I can't morally live up to. Please.
~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006 |
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Casey Windstrom
Gallente Barts of all Trades Socius Tutaminis Velox
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Posted - 2008.02.16 17:45:00 -
[153]
Firstly, I would like to say that I think removing the junk from space is a VERY good idea. All of the cans strewn all over have bugged me since the first day I've ever used Eve. I love the can art, it's neat, creative, and I think those that have the patience are very creative (and insane). However, it hurts all of us w/ the number of objects sitting in space. Aziz's graveyard is an awesome thing. Perhaps a new item could eventually be added to the game? An anchorable, for POS's, that /is/ a graveyard? I would love to have such within my own corp, personally, and would prefer not to use the corp hangar. Make it use a small amount of power (to keep the corpses.. ahemn.. fresh), and make it able to do something unique. PErhaps an epitaph for each corpse or something, and a small management display for it? Who knows.
I also have a question: What will happen to the anchored containers currently in space? Will they be immediately deleted if they have not been used in 30 days, or will they gain an automatic 30 day limit, to give people time to retrieve them?
Casey Windstrom Director of Manufacturing and Research Barts of All Trade
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.02.16 18:15:00 -
[154]
A little perturbed here that there was no further reaction to the suggestion of letting stuff come unanchored before it goes poof. That's equal and fair to everyone, and it gets to the same clean-database goal, while giving a bit more persistence and depth to player-generated content. ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles |
000Hunter000
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.02.16 18:37:00 -
[155]
This devblog gets a 10/10!!!
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! |
N1fty
Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.02.16 18:57:00 -
[156]
Wow, a good change! AND the community has only been asking about this for over 3 years. --
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Gane Green
Gallente Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2008.02.16 19:25:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Gane Green on 16/02/2008 19:29:49 You people trip me out. They already removed a profession in the past due to the need for speed effort. That was the profession of making insta bookmarks. It was fun planning a route commonly used and creating the route. I would say that if they would cave to people wanting can art and a graveyard then they would have to take back the warp to zero function as well.
On another note on the people worrying about fighters and drones being deleted during that one downtime each month. I thought fighters return to their drone bay when you crash? Wouldnt the same thing happen when down time hits? If you abandon your fighters right before that downtime then I can see an issue but you would be bringing it on yourself at that point.
Ok fighters are covered what about regular drones. Im really going to care that someone lost 5 hammerhead II's when that downtime comes. Really you get one hour of warning that the server is going to shut down. This only effects macro ratters and I like it.
The function of a carrier being able to jump lots of stuff in the belly of the ships it carried fell on deaf ears. It would blow my mind if they help the graveyard one bit.
Can art makes as much sense as ascii art in the forums. If people spammed the forums with ascii art lagging the forums with their art would you complain or say OOOH thats pretty. If God was a number he would be over 9,000!!!!!!!!! |
Frug
True Foundation R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.02.16 19:32:00 -
[158]
I for one like the honesty, which you do at the risk of inevitable flame.
Quote: But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems.
You know to be quite honest I think that situation, in the end, is really between you and Azia is it? Making the news for ones effort is a decent reward. 5 minutes of fame and all that. Perhaps a small monument with an appropriate description?
Heh, you could make the monument look like a can, just for irony.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.02.16 19:57:00 -
[159]
What if the server crashes or needs to be restarted at some time other then the usual scheduled downtime? Would any drones left out be removed when the server comes back online? ― Vexo M > He turned the drives up to 11 |
SiJira
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Posted - 2008.02.16 19:59:00 -
[160]
Edited by: SiJira on 16/02/2008 20:03:21 ccp prism x maybe we can a clearer depiction of the result with some hard empirical data for us to understand how good the change is?
as for helping azia im sure you can work it out
Originally by: Frug I for one like the honesty, which you do at the risk of inevitable flame.
You know to be quite honest I think that situation, in the end, is really between you and Azia is it? Making the news for ones effort is a decent reward. 5 minutes of fame and all that. Perhaps a small monument with an appropriate description?
Heh, you could make the monument look like a can, just for irony.
a monument to azia is not a solution to anything
ccp prism x another question id like to ask you is if you can make the timers for cans be three months because this would remove 95% of all the forgotton and unused cans anyways and maybe set the timer to a shorter period as the patch comes so the database is cleaned up quickly but so that having cans secured in space doesnt become a chore Trashed sig, Shark was here |
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Xenofur
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.16 20:27:00 -
[161]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Just to iterate: I wont favour any one person, or her activities, over any other.
I don't intend to put you down here, but you need to realize that the reaction you are getting is because you already are. You are favoring those who require mass fleet combat but can live with a world that is sterile and devoid of any signs of human occupation over those who would like to live in a world of their own creation. Originally by: CCP Prism X But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems.
I think i made one, please at least deign it an answer, even if it's only: "Impossible."
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CCP Prism X
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.16 20:41:00 -
[162]
Favouring those who prefer mass fleet battle by relieving redundant IO thrashing from the server cache services? Get serious. Improving server performance is what I'm payed to do. You'll find it will benefit everyone equally. Just because I went public with feeling bad for ruining Azias sandcastle doesn't mean I'm going to let you accuse me of favouritism with strawmen like that.
And I said 'assist at least in relocating' to parahprase myself. I'm not offering any feature development. I'll send Azia an EVE mail regarding whatever I can do for her, if anything. The graveyard is not the focal point of this dev blog. I've already said it's not going to be exempt from proper game mechanics.
~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006 |
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Llaneza
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Posted - 2008.02.16 20:46:00 -
[163]
Folks, if you want to do art in space, do it the hard way:
http://www.bmagic.net/gf.jpg
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.16 20:58:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 16/02/2008 21:00:03
Originally by: Xenofur
Originally by: CCP Prism X But I would like to open discussions to a solution which does not include abusing the caching services which will negatively affect a lot of other players in neighbouring solarsystems.
I think i made one, please at least deign it an answer, even if it's only: "Impossible."
I think the core of the problem is that there are tasks that are getting done by unsuitable techniques. The techniques used are anchorable container. The tasks can be summed up as "player-created content", and generally split in two kinds:
1) Art. This is from ad cans to full-fledged can art, designed to draw attention from other players. A possible solution to this would be to make billboard ads available to players. This could start out with just providing a way to add scrolling text to them, and expand into abilities to post graphics (composable like corp logos?). The interface could be quite similar to the corp ad interface, and allow influence for one region only.
2) Storage. This is mostly non-public (deep safe storages) or semi-public (grave yard), with various intents. Here, using cans just reveals a lack of a specific item, namely a single anchorable structure that provides "lots of divided space" - basically, a single item that can replace dozens of cans. This should provide multiple hangars, all accessible with separate passwords (or, in an extension, even setable to be accessible with correct standings, etc.). This would reduce the deep space storages from multiple cans to a single item each, thus reducing cache time; basically, the same as a single POS. Maybe there are other optimizations possible for this.
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sableye
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.16 20:59:00 -
[165]
can we get some stats after the first clean up saying how much was removed :)
Join The Fight With Promo Today View The North Star! |
Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2008.02.16 21:09:00 -
[166]
Can we except a similar performance increase to when the bookmarks were removed? If so, can we get a month's notice so I can let my accounts expire?
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Carcosa Hali
Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.02.16 21:16:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Carcosa Hali on 16/02/2008 21:20:24 Well, first off.. Thanks, Prism X... I've long wondered if anything would ever be done. You rock... I honestly don't care for can-art, and if somebody's little pictures mean that much to them, they can spend 30 minutes in shuttle once a month to keep them.. *shrug*
And Azia, I'm sure you can find a couple of trustworthy folks who would help you maintain your project that wouldnt abuse the password..
About the RL graves though.. That's tough, cause they really mean something.. But the answer is pretty simple; we make a charity.
I think there is one moon out in New Eden (hard to find, but there) and someone could open an alt corp, place a small tower on that moon, and if I read the posts right, even offline it would keep all the gravemarkers safe..
Just name the corp/tower Eve-Graves and include a list of all the corps that volunteer to wardec anyone who messes with it.. You'll probably get VETO at least, and they'll bring in all the RP corps, and probably a few other good-hearted folks.. So it becomes a player funded and policed monument. I would donate to that.. --------------
Sometimes you lose it all...
Sacrifice: Full Text |
Spoon Thumb
Caldari Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.16 21:29:00 -
[168]
The only solution would be a POS, but the question is how far from a POS can a can be to not be affected?
Same grid and it might be possible, anything less than that would make things near impossible
Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists
Recruiting |
Krxon Blade
The Phoenix Rising
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Posted - 2008.02.16 21:31:00 -
[169]
Great news. Long forgotten junk will finally be removed.
But, please leave New Eden cans.
It was great experience to fly there and discover all those messages from unknown people. I understand your urge to ease load on database, but some things are too precious to sacrifice.
Milky Way will continue to spin even if you decide to delete New Eden cans, but great amount of players invested time will be lost, and EVE will loose another bit of something which is already low: Places worth to explore, which aren't important to actual gameplay but which adds to immersion into game. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
TheDemonologist
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Posted - 2008.02.16 22:02:00 -
[170]
Edited by: TheDemonologist on 16/02/2008 22:02:42
Originally by: Krxon Blade please leave New Eden cans
/signed.
While I can understand if you are going to clear out the cans, clean out all of them, but in doing so you will be loosing something that for me, and I'm sure many others, makes EVE what it is.
Just because it's trash to someone, doesn't mean it's trash to another.
"One man's trash is another man's treasure"
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Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.02.16 22:53:00 -
[171]
Originally by: CCP Prism X But please. Stop asking for things I can't morally live up to. Please.
It's just a game... no need to feel so bad for enforcing that necessary change.
Maybe you can code the sisi database to keep anchored cans through mirrors , so that can art stays there forever. Such things do not impact TQ gameplay.
As for player driven content , it's up to you to create opportunities. Make factional warfare not suck , we have empires to conquer
Originally by: ivan draco we didnt want your post anyway
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Raivotar
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.16 23:05:00 -
[172]
Everything must go. Some people just don't get it. Im backing this 100%. ------------------------------------------------
I'm scissors. Nerf rocks. Paper is fine. |
ForceM
Gallente POS Builder Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.16 23:11:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Stakhanov
Originally by: CCP Prism X But please. Stop asking for things I can't morally live up to. Please.
Maybe you can code the sisi database to keep anchored cans through mirrors , so that can art stays there forever. Such things do not impact TQ gameplay.
Wont be possible .. every sisi mirror is a DB copy of TQ .. would mean they would have to change the DB every mirror .. will be impossible to maintain
btw .. 100% for this change ... tho i find 1 month too long .. max 2 weeks -----
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KaiDoh Maru
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.02.17 00:15:00 -
[174]
Edited by: KaiDoh Maru on 17/02/2008 00:22:04
Originally by: Raivotar Everything must go. Some people just don't get it. Im backing this 100%.
Signed & double signed- anything that reduces lag without harming actual game play is a good thing.
can art etc may still exist but it will be temporary unless whoever set it up looks after it by opening cans & thus refreshing the timer- if it's really that good & important people will look after their art!
As for people worried about forgetting to scoop fighters before the end of the month- if you are that careless you deserve to loose them. Honestly, if you can afford to run a carrier and replace drones lost in combat then you can shell out for leaving them in space and being careless. People will still have ample time to salvage these things if thats their profession.
From a role playing or whatever perspective (as people seem to like these) nothing is permanent. Junk would float off in space, carried along gravity wells/ orbits etc etc [insert sci-fi explanation here].
This will also help those people who dump advertising cans for recruitment etc by keeping their adverts up to date and relevant- most of those cans are so old they serve no purpose but to eat up server resources as the corps no longer exist now anyway. Just don't even get me started on all those abandoned shuttles on my scanner...
Say Yes to less space junk [X]
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Jei'son Bladesmith
The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club
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Posted - 2008.02.17 00:31:00 -
[175]
With regards to Can Art (and Graveyards for that matter) if we all REALLY want to keep it around, what if they are left password unprotected or given a common password or something so that visitors can help maintain them (put in/take out a unit of ammo to refresh the log or somesuch) considering the massive scale of many of these projects it would take alotta visitors to help maintain it, but on the flipside if many people are NOT visiting or helping, than by extension we can't very well complain if it goes away since we didnt help to maintain it.
☼☼☼ 12 Seconds ☼☼☼ |
Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.02.17 01:37:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 17/02/2008 01:38:53 Is a system of X time --> Unanchor --> Y time --> Remove possible?
Or are all the unanchored GSCs non-unique DB entries? I doubt they are, as many have their own names, which would tend to point to them being individual unique entries, probably of the same type as the anchored ones. If that is the case (unique, same type as anchored), it shouldn't be too hard to modify to support unanchoring rather than deletion after some time. Then, a week later it is swept off by the NPC dustmen. Unfortunately, not being a DB programmer, I can't tell you what the exact performance penalty for such checks (and state changes + deletion rather than simple outright deletion once) would be.
I just don't think you would see much significant difference between a 30day/7day timer (which removes unanchored cans after 7 days) then you would from a 30day/Downtime timer that doesn't unanchor them at all. After all, most of the truly abandoned cans have been abandoned for months, if not years. It would just take 7 more days to get the initial gain. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Narita
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Posted - 2008.02.17 01:58:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Xenofur Honestly and with all due respect. If you don't see how counterproductive reducing persistency is it's probably because you're not a gamer or, at the very least, not highly familiar with MMO gameplay.
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande I think that from a technical perspective the cleanup is good and long overdue.
I couldn't disagree with you more on the graveyard/can art issue. Your view of this is purely technical and lacks perspective. You should consider these things as real world monuments. Right now you are the road planning administration clerk who wants to tear down monuments because they obstruct car traffic. Doesn't really mix too well with the nicely worded stuff about a virtual society Hellmar has been speaking of.
I couldn't/didn't say it better myself. The feature is worth doing, but Prism, seriously dude. Just because it performs well to delete everything doesn't make it automatically good game design. And people who enjoy the atmosphere of persistence are not "evil", as you called can art. I appreciate the apology you gave, but the fact that you still insist any other point of view is just plain invalid is a little... completely wrong of you.
There's a difference between "my way or the highway" (good) and "my way is the only right way to see this" (bad). You can do the former, and not insult anyone, but the latter is just arrogant and unnecessary. Why not say "you may have a point, but we're doing this, and if you give it a chance I'm sure you'll come around"? Being diplomatic won't hurt anyone, you know - you could reach out to the other side instead of telling them they're wrong for not being born with your same views.
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Comex
The Legion. Requiem-Aeternam
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Posted - 2008.02.17 03:38:00 -
[178]
Well written post! Thank you.
Just a thought about the graveyard, why not just relocate it to the presence of a star base?
Suggestion - to extend on the NSF Since jump gates would be considered as one bottle neck, and a place people more often put up space art and ads, please consider further restrictions or/and clean up here. Practically speaking Concord might want the space around a gate clear to not disturb the sensitive equipment in the jump gate. Talking of the o mighty DB, clean/restrict all junk which otherwise would load for the client at jumping through a gate. In terms of coding this, without having any in depth of coding, could it implemented in a reverse/similar way like with the star bases?
This could as well be considered for stations too (did someone say Jita?)
As an endnote, this is not only a problem for eve, even in RL we have a problem with space junk and satellites falling out of the sky...
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THEGREAT LOBO
Infinitus Odium The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.17 03:42:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Krxon Blade Great news. Long forgotten junk will finally be removed.
But, please leave New Eden cans.
It was great experience to fly there and discover all those messages from unknown people. I understand your urge to ease load on database, but some things are too precious to sacrifice.
Milky Way will continue to spin even if you decide to delete New Eden cans, but great amount of players invested time will be lost, and EVE will loose another bit of something which is already low: Places worth to explore, which aren't important to actual gameplay but which adds to immersion into game.
/Signed.. Signed x 100000000000
The eve gate is the only place in the whole of eve that is a sight to see. The cans left there really speak about the past out eve. It is so nice heading out there and reading all the little msg's on cans. Many from people that no longer play.
Any other stuff in space i don't care about, But don't take away the eve gate ones, You will make lobo cry
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Solbright altalt
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Posted - 2008.02.17 04:25:00 -
[180]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Favouring those who prefer mass fleet battle by relieving redundant IO thrashing from the server cache services? Get serious. Improving server performance is what I'm payed to do. You'll find it will benefit everyone equally.
How about starting by only deanchoring. And add in the ability to scan for secure cans. Then see how fast the unused stashes stay in space for before getting too trigger happy on the delete button.
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