| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
   |
Posted - 2008.02.13 16:30:00 -
[1]
I Recently started a new Caldari Character and after many years i looked into t1 frigs again, to find out that the changes that were made to them a year or so ago are outdated and the ships need a rething to be able to perform in their roles.
Btw, im sure the other races frigs are lacking in some sort or another, and maybe the t1 cruisers, too.
If you care about it write something similiar about them and hopefully a dev sees this thread.
I posted this in the shipchanges thread in the portal forum - forgive me that im too lazy to rewrite it ;)
T1 Frigs, caldari in this case as i dont have the time to look over the other races, are the ships for the new players in eve, giving them a first impression of how things work in this game. The problem tho is that most t1 frigs cant fullfil their basic role, in pvp atleast - which is where the balance should lie, forcing new players to change to cruisers/destroyers quickly and being unable to support their fellow mates until they are sitting in one.
The Balances im suggesting are to give these ships a chance to compete in pvp. The character in the screenshots has all skills but specialisations at 4.
Let me start with the Heron.
The Heron, a ship which says in its description is used for scouting but has limited weaponry and defenses.
The idea of the ship is good, giving the new player in eve a chance to join the profession of the probers, without having to spend weeks/months of his training time on Cover Ops ships and alot of money, too.
A ship that has a Bonus for scanning time and a damage bonus but only two highslots. A scanning ship that has 3 medslots but not the cpu to use them, and unable to rely on speed to avoid enemie fire.
This screen should make its problems obvious: Heron
It cant utilize its 2nd Highslot and neither the 3rd medslot because of cpu issues.
There are two things that would make this ship worthwile in pvp:
a bonus to cloaked speed - similiar to the stealthbomber one,
and a cpu upgrade (keep in mind the character used in the screenshot has all skills at 4)
The Condor,
a nice ship, fast but does hardly any damage, a born tackler.
Because it has only 2 medslots, fitting an mwd and a warp disruptor is a must, the results: Condor
My suggestion here would be to change one if its bonuses (5% bonus to light missile and rocket kinetic damage 10% bonus to light missile and rocket velocity per skill level.) to a warp disruption decreased cap use per level, similiar to the crow.
The Merlin,
The only Caldari frigate with a bonus to hybrids but no bonus to missiles, yet it has a 2/2 slot layout. On top of that it is heavy and slow, but doesnt have the powergrid to fit longrange guns/launchers with an mwd not to mention fill any of its other slots.
merlin
A solution would be to give it 3 or 4 turret hardpoints, plus the pg to fill its slots with having 125mm rails on it.
The Bantam, yay ;).
The T1 mining frigs in general have no hope to compete with the small barges Bantam
Simple solution would be to give it some sort of tanking bonus and bonus to salvagers with 3 highslots -utilities if must.
-
|
Corstaad
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 16:55:00 -
[2]
I think they need to change how low sec is handle first rather then start boosting T1 frigs. Even if we change the mission race to atleast include some pvp frigs you'll never see them out there. T1 frigs and 0.0 is completely different in my eyes and I really don't see a point in them. Simple because I believe if your new you should be trying to climb the sp ladder and soon as possiable. This means implants means dediction to a ships which turns to T2 ships.
If they want to promote PvP for newer types of players they'll need to start tweaking low sec first.
|
Pandares
Gallente
I Love The Kha'ak
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 17:01:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
The T1 mining frigs in general have no hope to compete with the small barges
wait what? You're suggesting a Bantam should be able to compete with a mining barge?
_______________________________________________
|
Corstaad
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 17:31:00 -
[4]
If anything I do believe they should change the Merlin to a three turret and two missle turret Hardpoint layout.
|
Rexthor Hammerfists
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 18:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 13/02/2008 18:03:29
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 13/02/2008 18:03:07
Originally by: Corstaad
I think they need to change how low sec is handle first rather then start boosting T1 frigs. Even if we change the mission race to atleast include some pvp frigs you'll never see them out there. T1 frigs and 0.0 is completely different in my eyes and I really don't see a point in them. Simple because I believe if your new you should be trying to climb the sp ladder and soon as possiable. This means implants means dediction to a ships which turns to T2 ships.
If they want to promote PvP for newer types of players they'll need to start tweaking low sec first.
I agree that lowsec needs more reasons to move into, changing some t1 frigs tho shouldnt collide with that.
The devs stated not long ago that factional warfare is definately coming, and hopefully will bring new player into the game and pvp.
This is where new player can taste pvp without having to find one of the rare corps that enable a life in 0.0 for lowskilled players.
Plus with low navigation skills even cruiser handle slowly and some ppl prefer to fight with lighter stuff.
Honestly, can you find a reason not to give the frigs a boost to let them fill a role, the details can be discussed ofc.
and to the guy about bantams, i suggested giving them a salvager bonus - removing the miner bonus.
-
|
Trevor Warps
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 18:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Stuff
Man ... you are quite complaining for nothing here ...
Heron : its a T1 prober, don't expect to do everything with it. If you want some pvp gear such as disruptors, well you have to fit some co-pro in the lows. All the t1 probers are pretty much like that. I don't see many T2 probers fitting tackling gear either.
Condor : the warp disruption bonus is a special role bonus recently given to the interceptors. Yeah maybe they could move that to the T1 hulls too, making them good and cheap tacklers, but then it should be done to all races.
Merlin : That's correct, your setup won't fit, and a doomsday weapon wont fit in either. You long range weapons + mwd setup wont fit on other races frigs either.
|
Daphne Oboe
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 18:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Pandares
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
The T1 mining frigs in general have no hope to compete with the small barges
wait what? You're suggesting a Bantam should be able to compete with a mining barge?
Yeah, that part was hilarious 
|
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 18:46:00 -
[8]
1. They're T1 Frigates. They're not supposed to do everything and most of them are lucky if they can do one thing really well.
2. You're trying to fit an MWD and long range weapons, which is hard for a lot of ships, not just T1 Frigates. Try fitting blasters or rockets instead, or fitting those long range weapons with an afterburner.
3. You're using basic metalevel 1 gear. Use good named stuff and a lot of your CPU issues will be reduced.
4. I agree with you that the Merlin would benefit from another turret hardpoint, especially in light of the other upcoming railboat buffs, but the Heron is a scout, not a combat ship, and even the T2 versions of the Condor have a hard time fitting for speed, tackle, and a full rack of missiles.
5. I like the idea of a ship with salvaging bonuses, but the T1 mining frigates shouldn't be those ships. Rookie industrial-type characters do use them for a while before stepping up into something better.
Interesting thoughts, but the T1 Frigates have been fairly well left alone for a long time. Probably with good reason.
--------------------
"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 18:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Pandares
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
The T1 mining frigs in general have no hope to compete with the small barges
wait what? You're suggesting a Bantam should be able to compete with a mining barge?
Even better, find me a t1 mining frig that 'in general'CAN compete with a small barge
***Warning! Sig ahead!***
Bounty: Jonny JoJo
|
Pandares
Gallente
I Love The Kha'ak
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 19:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
and to the guy about bantams, i suggested giving them a salvager bonus - removing the miner bonus.
What's wrong with giving newbie miners something to mine in? And a dedicated salvage friggie? What on EARTH will we do with destroyers then?
_______________________________________________
|
Corstaad
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 19:10:00 -
[11]
Use them to kill AFs of course :).
|
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Oyster Colors
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 19:33:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 13/02/2008 19:34:19
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
This screen should make its problems obvious: Heron
It cant utilize its 2nd Highslot and neither the 3rd medslot because of cpu issues.
Whats wrong with that setup is the warp disruptor 
If you really wanna tackle in it use a scrambler, but its not really good at tackling anyway.
You really want electronics to lvl5 btw, since probing needs a cloak tbh.
What I think is useful for heron:
[Highs]
1x Prototype cloak
1x probe launcher
[Meds]
1x 1mn MWD
1x cap recharger
1x micro cap battery (permamwd) or 1x warp scrambler
[Lows]
1x Nanofiber
|
Rexthor Hammerfists
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 19:45:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 13/02/2008 19:47:44
"Interesting thoughts, but the T1 Frigates have been fairly well left alone for a long time. Probably with good reason."
You nailed it to the point, none is using t1 frigs i listed above in pvp (ignore the bantam for now) for a very good reason, theyre useless.
The condor has a fast base speed, only 2 medslots and a paperthin hp.
It screams for a mwd and longrange tackle, rockets on that thing would mean it has to fit a web but then its useless as it cant be a frig killing ship with its puny damage and no scrambler.
If you want to fit an ab on that ship you take away its only advantage over the kestrel, which does way more damage has an additional med andd lowslot and more pg/cpu to use and doesnt die from being looked mean at.
With the bonuses the condor will still not be able to use the mwd and warp disruptor together for long, but longer then 20seconds.
The condor is way bigger then the interceptors and gets hit more easily and of course is slower. The two missile launchers are hardly worth any dps to speak about.
The Heron just doesnt work in pvp as it is atm but is the only ship for new players to try out the probing class without investing alot of their skilltime in it.
Lemme start with its 2 highslot bonuses while only having 2 highslots, a damage bonus to only one highslot is as useless as it gets.
Then every probing ship used for pvp uses a scrambler,
the heron needs a scrambler for two reasons - its scanning time is like 100seconds with lvl4 skills - a long time for someone to scan the probes and warp off,
and then it cant warp cloaked, means the target you just scanned sees you coming in and simply warps off before anything can warp to you.
This ship needs its recon probe launcher and warp disruptor to have any use in pvp,
on top of that what good is a scout ship that is that slow but cant cloak.
Its scanning bonus is 5% per level, with lvl4 skills it takes about 100 seconds to get a hit - hardly gamebreaking.
About the bantam, i never said it should be able to compete with the small mining barge,#the salvaging bonus would make give a new player more uses for the ships then that small mining bonus - altho i have to admit i dont know how many rookies use it for mining.
If the bantam is the only thing you can put a oneliner down about, i guess i did a good job.
What reason does a ship have to be in eve when ppl state its not worth flying in any way,
And why not give those ships a role it can fill - to give new players and alternative to the kestrel and merlin, and also a taste of the ships they might wonna fly and the profession they wonna specialise in,
since a new player must specialise to have any chance out there.
-
|
Julius Romanus
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 20:03:00 -
[14]
The executioner has a 2/2/2 slot loadout, and no fitting. Except for the fact that it looks like a cylon raider, its garbage.
The inquisitor is a weak kessie
|
Pandares
Gallente
I Love The Kha'ak
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 21:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
About the bantam, i never said it should be able to compete with the small mining barge,#the salvaging bonus would make give a new player more uses for the ships then that small mining bonus - altho i have to admit i dont know how many rookies use it for mining.
If the bantam is the only thing you can put a oneliner down about, i guess i did a good job.
Just because a thought can be condensed in one line, doesn't make it a 'oneliner'. I don't claim to know caldari frigates well enough to be able to go into the detail you went. That doesn't validate your points, nor does it invalidate them.
I just thought that your reasoning with the Bantam leapt out. See the Bantam is a ship that's just about perfect for the role it fills, yet you want to change it, because it's of no use to you.
The bantam's the first stepping stone for miners, and the 20%/lvl mining bonus is nothing to scoff at. Seeing that it's the caldari mining frig of all things, makes it even more desirable. After all, the caldari have the Osprey, the absolute master of all mining cruisers, so a miner would be training caldari frigs anyway.
Anyway, the bantam was hardly the spoke holding together your arguments so I'll leave the thread to others to discuss the rest of your suggestions. 
_______________________________________________
|
xxxak
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 21:24:00 -
[16]
Frankly T1 frigates suck because... well.. they are supposed to suck. You can easily fly a cruiser within a few days of starting the game. You can fly a cruiser pretty well within a couple weeks.
T1 frigs are for scouting, super-cheap suicide tackling .. and frankly not much more. Nor do I see a need for them to be much better than they are.
If you are a new player, get in a Caracal. If you are flying with a gang, one of your gang mates can easily help you pay the 4 mil it costs to buy one.
|
Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 21:58:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/02/2008 21:59:09
Originally by: xxxak
Frankly T1 frigates suck because... well.. they are supposed to suck. You can easily fly a cruiser within a few days of starting the game. You can fly a cruiser pretty well within a couple weeks.
T1 frigs are for scouting, super-cheap suicide tackling .. and frankly not much more. Nor do I see a need for them to be much better than they are.
Ha ha ha ha.
Tier 3 combat frigs are very good as a rule, particularly the Punisher/Rifter, and the Tier 2 ones see the Kestrel and the Incursus which are both good, provide you with a way to do very cheap pew-pew, and, damnit, I'd sooner have a capable frig pilot in gang with a 2-3ishM loss cost frig then a stupid Caracal with T1 gear.
Many close-range inty pilots and a few SB pilots, not to mention a bunch of noob cruisers and even a few AFs found out that T1 frigs are far from useless ;)
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
xxxak
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 22:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
..
Ha ha ha ha.
Tier 3 combat frigs are very good as a rule, particularly the Punisher/Rifter, and the Tier 2 ones see the Kestrel and the Incursus which are both good, provide you with a way to do very cheap pew-pew, and, damnit, I'd sooner have a capable frig pilot in gang with a 2-3ishM loss cost frig then a stupid Caracal with T1 gear.
Many close-range inty pilots and a few SB pilots, not to mention a bunch of noob cruisers and even a few AFs found out that T1 frigs are far from useless ;)
I fly almost exclusively in 0.0 and fight mostly HAC and Recon ships. T1 frigs die in less than 30 seconds to such ships. A T1 frig is ok as a suicide tackle.. and not much more. However, I would rather have a T1 frig in my gang than nothing.. sure.
But my point is that if you are *serious* about contributing to a gang, you will get in an inty, BC or at least a cruiser ASAP.
|
Rexthor Hammerfists
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.02.14 03:25:00 -
[19]
Thats exactly my point.
-
|
Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
|
Posted - 2008.02.14 04:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: Cpt Branko
..
Ha ha ha ha.
Tier 3 combat frigs are very good as a rule, particularly the Punisher/Rifter, and the Tier 2 ones see the Kestrel and the Incursus which are both good, provide you with a way to do very cheap pew-pew, and, damnit, I'd sooner have a capable frig pilot in gang with a 2-3ishM loss cost frig then a stupid Caracal with T1 gear.
Many close-range inty pilots and a few SB pilots, not to mention a bunch of noob cruisers and even a few AFs found out that T1 frigs are far from useless ;)
I fly almost exclusively in 0.0 and fight mostly HAC and Recon ships. T1 frigs die in less than 30 seconds to such ships. A T1 frig is ok as a suicide tackle.. and not much more. However, I would rather have a T1 frig in my gang than nothing.. sure.
But my point is that if you are *serious* about contributing to a gang, you will get in an inty, BC or at least a cruiser ASAP.
As a part of a larger gang a dedicated ship with a specific role is valuable since you only want it to do one thing, such as the raptor.
When soloing or when flying with one or two buddies, the Rifter will preform very nicely since it performs well in not one but several fields. It probably isn't best at anything but good at several, thus making it a good overall PvP ship.
|
Xindi Kraid
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.02.14 04:52:00 -
[21]
You didn't even emntion the Kestrel's power issues when where th launchers eat all the power and leave you with 3 MW
--Bird of Prey: Forum God
1. War
2.
3. Profit |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.02.14 10:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: xxxak
I fly almost exclusively in 0.0 and fight mostly HAC and Recon ships.
Yeah, well, I don't expect frigs to do well fighting T2 cruisers with a price-tag (well-fit) about 100 times of a well-fit T1 frig.
I use them for low-sec (mostly) solo piracy and I can tell you frigates are very potent little ships ;)
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Darahk J'olonar
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.02.14 20:12:00 -
[23]
I was too lazy to read the OPs whole thing but... Heron drop the point and the AB and fit what ya need to in the mids and lows to probe with. The only T1 frigs that are even remotely capable of fitting something similar to their T2 counterparts are the Incursus, Punisher, Rifter, Tristan and Merlin. Every other T1 frig. is functional in its' roles but nowhere near as versatile as the T2 frigs. Thats why they cost about 200k vs. X mil ISK.
|
Rexthor Hammerfists
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.02.14 20:28:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 14/02/2008 20:28:47
Originally by: Darahk J'olonar
I was too lazy to read the OPs whole thing but... Heron drop the point and the AB and fit what ya need to in the mids and lows to probe with. The only T1 frigs that are even remotely capable of fitting something similar to their T2 counterparts are the Incursus, Punisher, Rifter, Tristan and Merlin. Every other T1 frig. is functional in its' roles but nowhere near as versatile as the T2 frigs. Thats why they cost about 200k vs. X mil ISK.
Quote:
The heron needs a scrambler for two reasons - its scanning time is like 100seconds with lvl4 skills - a long time for someone to scan the probes and warp off,
and then it cant warp cloaked, means the target you just scanned sees you coming in and easily warps off before anything can warp to you and scramble it in time.
-
|
Darahk J'olonar
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.02.14 21:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 14/02/2008 20:28:47
Originally by: Darahk J'olonar
I was too lazy to read the OPs whole thing but... Heron drop the point and the AB and fit what ya need to in the mids and lows to probe with. The only T1 frigs that are even remotely capable of fitting something similar to their T2 counterparts are the Incursus, Punisher, Rifter, Tristan and Merlin. Every other T1 frig. is functional in its' roles but nowhere near as versatile as the T2 frigs. Thats why they cost about 200k vs. X mil ISK.
Quote:
The heron needs a scrambler for two reasons - its scanning time is like 100seconds with lvl4 skills - a long time for someone to scan the probes and warp off,
and then it cant warp cloaked, means the target you just scanned sees you coming in and easily warps off before anything can warp to you and scramble it in time.
OK.. so we agree!
This is why T1 frigs are T1 frigs.
|
Linaria TelMorte
|
Posted - 2008.02.18 02:08:00 -
[26]
Well, I think Frigates as they are don't really need much fixing.
I look at it this way.
I've been on for a whopping 10 days... (corpies got me into a Merlin.)
I've ben running missions and working on skills.
The Merlin has STARTED to give me a taste of what it's going to be like down the line when I have to look at what I can afford to equip and, (unless I missed my guess here) what I CAN'T afford to equip in a bigger ship.
as an example, (I'm broke, but here's what I'm running)
high-
2X 150mm Prototype Gauss Guns - ammo varies
1X Salvager1
1X Arbelest Rocket launcher - ammo varies
mid-
3X Small Supplemental Barrier Emitter
1X Small Shield Booster T2
low-
2X Power Diagnostic System 1
--------------
I realize looking at some other builds that have been posted, mine isn't half bad.
I'm actually doing pretty good, but the point is not "What" you equip, it's how you equip what you have to work with, and whether it's going to suit. This ship just plain isn't fast enough to hit & run, it's about getting in close with hybrids & ripping the hull apart. I may have some speed issues, but that's what Nav skills are for... once I'm done with a month of learning skills...
|
Brutoth Tain
Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency
|
Posted - 2008.02.18 02:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Linaria TelMorte
Well, I think Frigates as they are don't really need much fixing.
I look at it this way.
I've been on for a whopping 10 days... (corpies got me into a Merlin.)
I've ben running missions and working on skills.
The Merlin has STARTED to give me a taste of what it's going to be like down the line when I have to look at what I can afford to equip and, (unless I missed my guess here) what I CAN'T afford to equip in a bigger ship.
as an example, (I'm broke, but here's what I'm running)
high-
2X 150mm Prototype Gauss Guns - ammo varies
1X Salvager1
1X Arbelest Rocket launcher - ammo varies
mid-
3X Small Supplemental Barrier Emitter
1X Small Shield Booster T2
low-
2X Power Diagnostic System 1
--------------
I realize looking at some other builds that have been posted, mine isn't half bad.
I'm actually doing pretty good, but the point is not "What" you equip, it's how you equip what you have to work with, and whether it's going to suit. This ship just plain isn't fast enough to hit & run, it's about getting in close with hybrids & ripping the hull apart. I may have some speed issues, but that's what Nav skills are for... once I'm done with a month of learning skills...
Try this for your merlin:-
2x 125/75mm Rails
2x Rockets or standard launchers
1x small shield booster
2x Rat specific passive resistance amplifiers
1x small extender or cap recharger or afterburner
2x PDS or 1x BCS and 1x MFS
Ive left it open for adjustment as your mileage my vary due to skills.
----------------------------------------------
Piebears <3 Risk Vs Reward.......You take the risk they take the reward. |
Grath Crassus
|
Posted - 2008.02.18 05:22:00 -
[28]
Wow, Merlin with 3 turrets would be a godsend. 4 turrets? That's just unfair ^_^ Although the fitting there would be tight with a full rack of neutrons, I can imagine a full ion rack would fit pretty neatly, or split neutrons/ions. |
Julius Romanus
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
|
Posted - 2008.02.18 05:32:00 -
[29]
There's nothing wrong with your average t1 frig getting shredded by a bigger badder ship. But within the frigate class it would be nice if they brought a few of the non t3 combat ships into the realm of usefulness. I'm talking about for instance a 3rd turret slot for the executioner + a few pg/cpu, a third mid or low on a few other ships. The grid to slap some form of buffer tank on the rocket ships.
Nothing major, not saying t1 frigates should kick ass. But there isnt a good reason for any ship to be utterly worthless at what it does. Being good within the context of your class doesn't break the balance scale, it evens it.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |