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nicolas sarkozy
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Posted - 2008.02.08 19:53:00 -
[31]
last upgrade on results: 10 attempts of various HAC/recon/HIC, 5 attempts of assault ships results: 1 run of pilgrim, 1 run of redeemer, done with all skills at 4, we are far of the % of success it's supposed to be able to be... around 100 engineerin datacores spent, for around 50 million isk of value, 15 sacred manifesto decryptors used... so now, you can see, it's ABSOLUTLY NOT VALUABLE.... i loose isk, pretty fast on this damn bull-*/+ invention...
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Doppleganger
Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.02.08 20:10:00 -
[32]
Personally I think invention should be boosted a slight bit but then again I was against them dropping the t2 lottery. I believed they should have kept the t2 lottery going and introduced invention but invention that was more boosted than it is now.
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William Ortega
Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.08 22:09:00 -
[33]
Originally by: pulse1976
Originally by: William Ortega
To be successful inventor you need:
1. Start up capital, 1+bil at least, though 500-750mil will be adequate (slow start though) 2. Ability to calculate your profit margin 3. Knowledge of the market 4. Patience, as you initial investment will not pay off for a few months.
I left the game just after invention came in and the lottery went out. I had loads of RP points but never won a T2 BPO. I've only been back for a few months now but decided to have a go at invention. Pretty pleased I did! Although I never started off with 1bil let alone 500-750m isk I made a small (less than 50m isk) trial investment after doing a lot of research. As it happened less than a month later, my trial investment has returned a nice 64% profit.
Invention is one of the tools where alot of research is needed into the cost of your items, cost of labs, market research etc etc. Its not something you can go into light heartedly.
Invention works. Leave it alone and stop whining!
Yes, sorry. I misspoke. I meant in order to be a successful inventor AND manufacturer you need that much in start up costs. My estimate included the cost of a POS, labs, BPOs, and finally t2 components to start running at least a couple of lines of t2 module manufacturing.
Technically, if you're just doing the invention aspect your costs will be much lower. It is possible to buy BPC's from contracts, thus avoiding the cost of a POS. Points 2-4 still apply however and they are the ones that make or break a budding industrialist.
-Willy |
William Ortega
Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.08 22:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: nicolas sarkozy last upgrade on results: 10 attempts of various HAC/recon/HIC, 5 attempts of assault ships results: 1 run of pilgrim, 1 run of redeemer, done with all skills at 4, we are far of the % of success it's supposed to be able to be... around 100 engineerin datacores spent, for around 50 million isk of value, 15 sacred manifesto decryptors used... so now, you can see, it's ABSOLUTLY NOT VALUABLE.... i loose isk, pretty fast on this damn bull-*/+ invention...
Please, please, please! Keep inventing. It's inventors/manufacturers like you that keep the rest of us in the green.
But seriously, Are you trolling?! Sacred Manifesto? Come on, there are only 5 decryptor types total. Did you even do your homework? Admittedly this is not as bad as when you used war strategion, but still...
-Willy |
Bartom Dekkar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.02.08 22:46:00 -
[35]
Originally by: nicolas sarkozy
i loose isk, pretty fast on this damn bull-*/+ invention...
It hurts when I poke my eye with my finger...
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Corporati Capitalis
Tollan Technologies
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Posted - 2008.02.09 03:33:00 -
[36]
Yeah, the devs must fix invention because otherwise the inventors can't compete with the T2 BPO owners!!! Like for example the Phobos - it costs almost 90m to invent and build, yet it sells for 84m in Jita and has been like that for more than a week. Talk about goddamn T2 BPO cartels! Oh, wait..
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Artmedis Valben
Gallente Lobster of Babel
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Posted - 2008.02.09 03:42:00 -
[37]
If you are doing ship invention, use decryptors.
If the particular ship you want to invent, like the Pilgrim for example, is so cheap on the market that using expensive decryptors only increases your loss at inventing them, then by all means buy the bloody ship from a BPO owner that is making 10 bil a year from it.
There are plenty of things from all races worth inventing. There are however other easier and more lucrative ways of making money than through invention and T2 construction.
Smart trading will always be the best way to make money
Selling: PERFECT PRINTS T2 SHIPS |
Scott Ryder
Infestation. The Cosa Nostra
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Posted - 2008.02.09 11:51:00 -
[38]
Originally by: nicolas sarkozy last upgrade on results: 10 attempts of various HAC/recon/HIC, 5 attempts of assault ships results: 1 run of pilgrim, 1 run of redeemer, done with all skills at 4, we are far of the % of success it's supposed to be able to be... around 100 engineerin datacores spent, for around 50 million isk of value, 15 sacred manifesto decryptors used... so now, you can see, it's ABSOLUTLY NOT VALUABLE.... i loose isk, pretty fast on this damn bull-*/+ invention...
You clearly suck. Ever considered quitting? Give me youre stuff please.
How bout doing something you earn isk on? I mine on two chars in empire (4 billion monthly) I copy t1 bpos and sell copies (2.5 billion monthly)
It is better sometimes to find something you are good at that also makes you alot isk, and use that isk to buy youre damn t2 ships..
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pSiKo
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Posted - 2008.02.09 18:44:00 -
[39]
can i have your stuff?
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Jamie Freely
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Posted - 2008.02.09 18:47:00 -
[40]
Invention has been boosted, please don't make it too easy. That said, I like the system and I trust CCP and the dev team to do what they feel needs to be done.
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Gillian Haas
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Posted - 2008.02.09 22:35:00 -
[41]
They need to boost invention a bit more, but in a very targeted way. If I were CCP i'd introduce a new mechanism whereby you specialize in inventing specific items. For example new skill: Science - Invention Specialization: Allows one invention specialization per level.
Make it rank 8 or 10 and need good pre-reqs that limit it to full time producers/inventors.
Then you could choose to specialize in inventing specific items. It would need some method for specifying which items you want to specialize in. It may be a good idea to have one skill for modules and one for ships, similar to how data interfaces work.
Specializing in an item's invention would give you effects similar to decrpytors; a better ME/PE/Runs on the output BPC.
CCP could also introduce another skill that has these effects standalone, without needing to be tied to a specific module/ship.
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Graalum
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.10 06:50:00 -
[42]
'boosting' invention is actually only a nerf to bpo's, sicne competition will inevitably eliminate any profit in the market for inventors.
and what kind of moron invents ammar recons and assault frigs?
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Shintai
Gallente IonTech Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.10 10:58:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Shintai on 10/02/2008 11:00:39
Originally by: nicolas sarkozy yeah, you're a nice seller of T2 mining laser then, no doubt... try with command ships, HAC, and let's see
Are you sure you are really an inventer?
I invent, build and sell HACs, Commandships, Transports, Heavy Indictors, Assault Frigs, Interceptors and so on.
Mech cores is 400K or less if you have just a tiny bit of tradeskill. Starship cores you get thrown in your back almost. I have about 30% or so in average on HACs. Lets say 25% to be nice.
I use maybe 4million per invention, so if 25% thats 16million for a statistic success. My profit is around 50million per HAC. So in short, 34million or more per HAC. If you are making a loss. Then stop it because you simply lack the skills and knowhow. Complaining on the forum because you dont know what you are doing is ********.
Also decrypters at cruiser/transport level of ships is a 50/50 if its worth it.
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Chance Lightfoot
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Posted - 2008.02.10 12:32:00 -
[44]
Originally by: nicolas sarkozy last upgrade on results: 10 attempts of various HAC/recon/HIC, 5 attempts of assault ships results: 1 run of pilgrim, 1 run of redeemer, done with all skills at 4, we are far of the % of success it's supposed to be able to be... around 100 engineerin datacores spent, for around 50 million isk of value, 15 sacred manifesto decryptors used... so now, you can see, it's ABSOLUTLY NOT VALUABLE.... i loose isk, pretty fast on this damn bull-*/+ invention...
I may be wrong on this but here goes...
Sacred Manifesto Decryptors are a +2 run Decryptor. If you are only getting a 1 run BPc after using it then clearly something is wrong as you should be getting a 2 run BPc at least. Are you using 1 run BPc to invent from or max run BPc?
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Jon David
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Posted - 2008.02.10 14:51:00 -
[45]
I just started invention and have been training skills to 4. My first attempt was tech 2 Vespa and Ogre drones. I was not unhappy with my 40% success rate but what I was unhappy about was the 3 to 4 run copies I got. This will be the end of my tech 2 drone invention I will continue to buy my drones. I think production runs should be 10% to 20% of the copy run within the run limits of invention. This makes invention a known quantity at level 4 skills I will get 10% of the copy runs and what ever odds of success. At level 5 skills I will get 20% this gives be a reason to train the skill. I know there are already guys starting their post saying you train to 5 for better results. Just would like more tangible expectations for a given quantity. I have a fellow corp member that is making loads on tech 2 modules. My goal was just to replace my lost drones and maybe have a few extra. Invention does need help.
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000Hunter000
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.02.10 15:41:00 -
[46]
Hehe, i actually disagree, i think invention should be made harder, not the part where ur getting the bpc's or not, that should impo be actually a bit more skillbased and not luck, i'd have no problems paying a hefty sum for a skill that would add 10% better chance per level tbh.
But it is too easy to get into T2 invention in the first place, i'm allready wondering when some T2 items will drop below the price of their T1 cousins (it would prolly take long but if it ever did happen i would not be surprised), like allready has happened to some of the named items.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! |
William Ortega
Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.11 01:25:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Jon David I just started invention and have been training skills to 4. My first attempt was tech 2 Vespa and Ogre drones. I was not unhappy with my 40% success rate but what I was unhappy about was the 3 to 4 run copies I got. This will be the end of my tech 2 drone invention I will continue to buy my drones. I think production runs should be 10% to 20% of the copy run within the run limits of invention. This makes invention a known quantity at level 4 skills I will get 10% of the copy runs and what ever odds of success. At level 5 skills I will get 20% this gives be a reason to train the skill. I know there are already guys starting their post saying you train to 5 for better results. Just would like more tangible expectations for a given quantity. I have a fellow corp member that is making loads on tech 2 modules. My goal was just to replace my lost drones and maybe have a few extra. Invention does need help.
Here's your problem. You got into invention with the expectation to use it for cheap drone replacement. This is unfortunately not going to happen. It will most definitely be cheaper to buy your t2 products. In order to break even and make money you need to have a reasonably large operation...
Silly real world example: I can probably build a computer from scratch, but the tools, mobos, etc will cost me more than buying the damn thing from radio shack.
Silly eve example: what you're describing is akin to mining in an osprey... Yes you can get your own minerals, but you can be sure that the guys with multiple accounts with hulks will in short order make it more profitable to run missions than mine in an itty bitty cruiser.
The problem is if you boost invention to the point where anybody can just use it to replace their lost t2 items, the effects for the dedicated t2 manufacturers will be even greater. It would be unbalancing and you can bet that in the very short order the dedicated manufacturers will make it non-cost effective again for very small time producers.
Specialization and dedication, as with everything in eve pays off. As it is right now, invention is fine. The dedicated inventor/manufacturer will still turn a profit, and it provides enough redistribution of wealth to be healthy for eve.
-Willy |
Harris
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2008.02.11 09:57:00 -
[48]
Originally by: William Ortega ...Silly eve example: what you're describing is akin to mining in an osprey... Yes you can get your own minerals, but you can be sure that the guys with multiple accounts with hulks will in short order make it more profitable to run missions than mine in an itty bitty cruiser.
Quoted for emphasis
I myself do not make much of a profit, having only just broke into the game. I do know however that if my POS' were manufacturing the materials I needed to make T2 ships then I would make a great deal of 'profit'.
Those that are apparantly selling at a loss probably have this access to moon mining operations so they don't have to pay market prices for their building requirements.
The actual cost of invention is the same for them but what comes after the result is where I think the difference is.
Invention works just fine. Forget the T2 BPO holders, they're lucky. Deal with it.
Consider that; rather than sit back and say "invention cost me isk so it clearly needs a boost".
Effort = reward.
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Jali Prince
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.02.11 10:21:00 -
[49]
I dont care that I dont have T2 bpo, i am here for the fun of it. I do have the all the necessary items to T2 invent now, it took a bit of doing and I got lucky with gifted bpc from people. I have spent alot of isk on skills, which is where most of my isk goes. I get reasonable success, I always make sure I think I have made a profit on my goods. I spend a month or so inventing and making. Once made I put a few on the market. I tend to sit on things, then remember I have them and take them to sell elsewhere eventually. I am not here to make a quick buck! But I seem to have accumulated a modicum of wealth now. Everyone thinks I am a billionaire, but the way i play the game means I am not. Isk is there to be spent! On new shiny things... like hand bags and shoes! aka ships and guns.... Life is chocolate |
Bambi
Existentialist Collective
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Posted - 2008.02.11 12:18:00 -
[50]
Just look at the Cerberus market, and explain hopw there is still a BPO cartel around it?
When they 1st appeared and for several months after Cerberus were welling for 3-400 million each. Now with a build cost of about 36 million even with negative ME thats insane proffit. Hence we now see Cerbs for 60 mill or less. Sure they cost more to invent/build via invention than for the BPO owner, but they a a hell of a lot cheaper.
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Riho
Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2008.02.11 12:33:00 -
[51]
invention is great :)
iv been doing it for 3 weeks now.. this is what i have gotten:
1,5bil invesntment to get started (pos+ fule, t1 bpos, some money for datacores and materials to build the finished product) i have made around 400m PROFFIT from it... but that means im building allmost permanently whit 2 characters (10 slots each) and inventing whit one while the other one makes BPC.
yes, in that time could make alot more money (running missions for 8 hours or so in low sec i got over 150m a day), but that means id have to be online alot. whit invention i can do stuff like PvP and allso real life stuff while production runs. whit missions you cant do that.
and to the op.... you where stupid that you didnt use a decryptor.... ship invention has a really low success rate (20% or 30%) by base.... so you need decryptors to get higher chance.... think that there was one that increased it to 50% or so and if u succseed you get 4 runs or so.... i havent done ship invention as i havent got the money atm.. still making back the first investment :) ---------------------------------- This is Me |
Bambi
Existentialist Collective
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Posted - 2008.02.11 14:35:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Bambi on 11/02/2008 14:37:21 If you are gonna get into invention starting with zero skills and research agents it is going to be expensive. If you already have 10 million skillpoints in science, and 5 R&D agents giving you 10 mech cores a day the 'cost' of invention becomes very small compared to the potential proffits.
You could compare a dedicated miner with 10 million skillpoints in mining with a hulk and all the mining director skills etc to a newb in a firgate with 1 t1 mining laser. The isk generated per hour is going to be slightly different....
The way I look at my invention jobs is they cost me no ISK in outlay as I have all the skills, cores, bps already. I can leave the Battleship BPO's in perma copy making me 18 or so max run copies a month, each selling for around the 15-20 million mark, take 90 mill out of that to fuel my POS, another 100 million to buy expensive decryptors that I havent managed to find from hacking sites. Every other invention job on top of that is proffit.
It suits me perfectly as I cant play EVE for 6 hours a day running missions or ratting to earn ISK, invention earns me money while I am doing other things.
One thing I will have a moan about is the quality of the input BPC. Why would an invention job from an ME 0 BPC havethe same output on success as a ME 50 BPC. We should have some small modifier on resultant quality dependant on the input BPC. Maybe 1/10th of the input ME off the output ME. So a default BPC for a Golem made with a max run Raven copy at ME 50 would have a base output ME of 1 rather than -4.
and yes I am an invention fanboy, and a genral CCP/EVE fanboy, they can do NO wrong....
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