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![Rook Highwind Rook Highwind](https://images.evetech.net/characters/130499362/portrait?size=64)
Rook Highwind
Miners-R-us
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Posted - 2008.04.17 12:08:00 -
[31]
/signed ______________________________________
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![Mavolio Mavolio](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1406108107/portrait?size=64)
Mavolio
White Nova Industries Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.04.17 12:44:00 -
[32]
The main problem with changing them wouldn't be what stats they should have but what to do with all the rigs that are already out.
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![Salpad Salpad](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1253651701/portrait?size=64)
Salpad
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Posted - 2008.04.17 16:12:00 -
[33]
I agree.
I do rig my small ships (I've rigged my Navy Caracal, and I plan on buying and rigging a Kestrel soon), but that's only because I'm an in-game billionaire (a very small-scale merchant prince with assets worth probably 3G ISK).
Ordinary players can't do this, and that's not good. The game would be more fun for more people, if cheaper rigs were available that were appropriate for non-BS sized ships.
Perhaps a cost scheme of x1.0 for BS sized rigs, x0.5 for C sized rigs, and x0.2 for F sized rigs?
-- Salpad |
![Sabrina Al'Kian Sabrina Al'Kian](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1094389255/portrait?size=64)
Sabrina Al'Kian
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Posted - 2008.04.17 17:02:00 -
[34]
/signed
The thing is: this likely wouldn't affect poly carbs very much. They're expensive because they're used on HACs and some inties, not on BSs (usually). So having smaller poly carbs wouldn't make nano HACs any more viable than they are now, they would only decrease the cost of BS sized rigs.
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![Abrazzar Abrazzar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/431543462/portrait?size=64)
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.04.17 17:03:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Mavolio The main problem with changing them wouldn't be what stats they should have but what to do with all the rigs that are already out.
They can no longer be produced or fitted, old Blueprints get converted to new Blueprints of a certain size (BS or BC) and keep their researched ME/PE, old fitted rigs still work normally, unfitted rigs can be reprocessed with 100% return.
Yeah, might be a bit complicated but this way no one gets hurt (much) unless I missed something.
Easy and cruel way: All old rigs and their blueprints disappear (get removed from the database) and the new ones get seeded.
-------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
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![Manfred Rickenbocker Manfred Rickenbocker](https://images.evetech.net/characters/698219601/portrait?size=64)
Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance Delta.Green
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Posted - 2008.04.17 18:37:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 17/04/2008 18:44:58
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Mavolio The main problem with changing them wouldn't be what stats they should have but what to do with all the rigs that are already out.
They can no longer be produced or fitted, old Blueprints get converted to new Blueprints of a certain size (BS or BC) and keep their researched ME/PE, old fitted rigs still work normally, unfitted rigs can be reprocessed with 100% return.
Yeah, might be a bit complicated but this way no one gets hurt (much) unless I missed something.
Easy and cruel way: All old rigs and their blueprints disappear (get removed from the database) and the new ones get seeded.
Even simpler, old rigs/BPOs are all BS sized rigs (because they are more expensive and have less calibration) then the new Cruiser/BC and Frigate/Destroyer (capital?) sized rigs get factorized by 10 like how power grid on guns works. Following from what I posted originally: Parts: 1 to 10 for Frigate -> 10s for Cruiser -> 100s for BS (same as now) -> 1000s for Capital Calibration: 5000 Frigate -> 500 Cruiser -> 50 BS (same as now) -> 5 Capital. Total Calibration: 40,000 Frigate -> 4000 Cruiser -> 400 BS (same as now) -> 40 Capital With this scaling, the only ships that lose out are capitals, however its easy enough to re-rig those because a few mil loss on a billion ISK ship isnt much.
The only wierdness is the DB size for adding all these rigs and BPOs. CCP will probably need to thin the herd from the useless rigs like Signature Radius on a capital/BS or armor pump on a frigate. Then again, who is to say what is useful or not?
Edit: Polycarbs are an easy scapegoat because they are by nature waaaay too overpowered as is. The issue arises because they aren't stacking-nerfed (or sufficiently stacking nerfed) on the attributes they affect primarily and through secondary effects (aka speed). While I dont like nano personally, its not because its fast, just there aren't enough drawbacks for what it is (still decent DPS, immune to web/scram by distance, near perfect escape-ability). Polycarb'd frigates aren't a problem since to do ANY damage they need to be in web or scramble range. If someone wants to go 10 billion m/s, let them! ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
![Chani Fedaykin Chani Fedaykin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/864449404/portrait?size=64)
Chani Fedaykin
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Posted - 2008.04.23 15:41:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker The only wierdness is the DB size for adding all these rigs and BPOs. CCP will probably need to thin the herd from the useless rigs like Signature Radius on a capital/BS or armor pump on a frigate. Then again, who is to say what is useful or not?
i dont think the amount of additional data for the db would be a problem. compared to the data already available, the additional one is most likely negligible. a few days trial will 'create' more data :)
---
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![Darth Felin Darth Felin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/530590916/portrait?size=64)
Darth Felin
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Posted - 2008.04.24 14:58:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Even simpler, old rigs/BPOs are all BS sized rigs (because they are more expensive and have less calibration)
So you want to make many BPO and BPC became a trash instantly? Great idea. It is not such a simple problem as it seems. I bet that you won't use an Nanopump rig on frigate, same way a don't think that many will use poly rigs on BSes and so on.
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![Chani Fedaykin Chani Fedaykin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/864449404/portrait?size=64)
Chani Fedaykin
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Posted - 2008.04.24 15:08:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Darth Felin It is not such a simple problem as it seems. I bet that you won't use an Nanopump rig on frigate, same way a don't think that many will use poly rigs on BSes and so on.
IF ccp would decide to introduce sized rigs - i dont think it would be much of a hazzle to script some simple missions and add them to certain npc's in order to let the pilot choose into what size class he want his bpo's be 'converted'. however i dont know what internal guidelines ccp has related to such changes, and what they have done in the past (if there has ever been a similar change)
---
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![Die Warzau Die Warzau](https://images.evetech.net/characters/885109818/portrait?size=64)
Die Warzau
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Posted - 2008.04.24 19:52:00 -
[40]
Super-duper-ultra signed. It might not also be a bad plan to have different levels of t1 rig (i.e. rigs that take PvE salvage to build) as well. The idea would be to provide a smaller bonus (maybe even just a percent or 2) to XYZ attribute, but at a cost that makes sense to scale down to a t1 frigate without 10x-ing its cost.
As it is now, the highest of the high ships set the rig prices. 3 rig slots on a t1 frigate is a cruel joke. Give us SOMETHING that it makes sense to put in there.
Thanks for the great suggestion! |
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![Chani Fedaykin Chani Fedaykin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/864449404/portrait?size=64)
Chani Fedaykin
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Posted - 2008.05.14 15:07:00 -
[41]
have to bump this one ... seems like ppl rather like to create new threads for 'old' topics ---
features & ideas |
![Zirconium Blade Zirconium Blade](https://images.evetech.net/characters/324859511/portrait?size=64)
Zirconium Blade
Ass Pounding Space Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.05.14 15:12:00 -
[42]
I have to say I'm against it, unless current rigs become frigate rigs and the new, larger rigs cost substancially more.
I dont see why you think you should be able to pimp out t1 frigates for cheap.
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![Chani Fedaykin Chani Fedaykin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/864449404/portrait?size=64)
Chani Fedaykin
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Posted - 2008.05.14 17:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Zirconium Blade I have to say I'm against it, unless current rigs become frigate rigs and the new, larger rigs cost substancially more.
I dont see why you think you should be able to pimp out t1 frigates for cheap.
[sarcasm]hmm - perhaps we should just remove rig slots on frigs[/sarcasm] i would PERHAPS agree with you if you would have proposed to make bs rigs more expensive, keep cruiser rigs and lower the price for frig rigs. rigs are not insured, rigs cant be removed once 'installed' and the price compared to a frig is in no relation ---
features & ideas |
![Finger Licking Finger Licking](https://images.evetech.net/characters/383949099/portrait?size=64)
Finger Licking
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Posted - 2008.05.14 17:41:00 -
[44]
Suggested Solution going forward...
All currently fitted Rigs are treated as correctly sized for their ship (pilots can't safely remove them, so there is no monetary gain) All currently unfitted Rigs are transformed to Large rigs, which retain the same basic components and costs as pre-change.
All Rigs get a Size attribute (so there would be 3 new types, and 1 renamed type): Small, Medium, Large, Capital
If the Ship Size is greater than or equal to the Rig size, the bonus would be calculated as such.
NewBonus = RigBonus * (1/(1 + sizeDifference)) NewPenalty = RigPenalty * (1/(1 + sizeDifference))
If the Ship Size is less than the Rig size, the rig is treated as Overloaded and causes damage to all fitted rigs, while the penalty increases proportionately with damage, until the rigs become useless and disintegrate.
NewBonus = RigBonus * (1+(sizeDifference/4)) NewPenalty = RigPenalty * (1+(sizeDifference/4))
I would think that Industrials would be included as Medium sized ships, while ORE ships would be sized based on the baseType of the ship (Small, Medium, Large)
Small Rigs should have a base calibration of 25 and T2 variants would have 37.5 Medium Rigs should have a base calibration of 50 and T2 variants would have 75 Large Rigs should have a base calibration of 100 and T2 variants would have 150 Capital Rigs should have a base calibration of 200 and T2 variants would have 300
Obviously those numbers would need to be tweaked by game design...just suggesting as a starting point
I would think that T1 ships should have enough calibration to fit 3 of the T2 variants...although I know that is not the case at the moment...and T2 Ships should be able to fit 2 of the T2 variants
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![Finger Licking Finger Licking](https://images.evetech.net/characters/383949099/portrait?size=64)
Finger Licking
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Posted - 2008.05.14 17:43:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Chani Fedaykin rigs cant be removed once 'installed'
Is this a recent change? I have removed rigs before, they just haven't been useable afterwards (like implants) and no longer exist.
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![Tarron Sarek Tarron Sarek](https://images.evetech.net/characters/903424038/portrait?size=64)
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2008.05.14 18:25:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson While I am a nanoship user and not complaining about them at all by making frigate/cruiser sized polycarbon rigs it would mean that every ceptor and hac in the game would be fitted out the same.
Polycarbon rigs are overpowered. I won't go into detail, it's quite obvious.
Anyway, this simply means Polycarbon rigs have to be brought in line with other speed rigs, before introducing sized rigs.
Broken stuff (polycarbs) should never prevented good ideas (sized rigs) from being implemented.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
-Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam-
('nerf' means 'incompetence', esp. when you use it) |
![Chani Fedaykin Chani Fedaykin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/864449404/portrait?size=64)
Chani Fedaykin
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Posted - 2008.05.15 00:25:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Finger Licking
Originally by: Chani Fedaykin rigs cant be removed once 'installed'
Is this a recent change? I have removed rigs before, they just haven't been useable afterwards (like implants) and no longer exist.
no its not a recent change - it happens to be a bad choice of expression on my side
= no change, same mechanics as usual (rigs get destroyed on removal) sry for any confusion, obviously my fault ^^ ---
features & ideas |
![Feather Storm Feather Storm](https://images.evetech.net/characters/240815383/portrait?size=64)
Feather Storm
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.15 06:36:00 -
[48]
I agree with the OP sized rigs will be good for the game. I also believe an additional change to rigs should be made and I have a methodology for the shift that I believe will be acceptable to blue print owners.
First the additional change.
you should not be able to install more thane one of any rig a ship Ex. If you install a CCC you should not be able to install another CCC on that ship.
I believe this will promote more variation in the way ships are rigged. This change will also remove the problem with polycarbs being over powered. The last reason I am proposing this change is that it will stop the the completely illogical replacing of a ships engine housing with a polycarbon engine housing that is then "augmented" with an additional polycarbon engine housing that despite the fact it should make the ship heavier not lighter allows you to go faster, etc.
Any legacy ships that break this rule are to be left alone as this should only be checked at the time of Rig installation. for ease of programing and to avoid having to modify the entire EVE DB
now for the shift over methodology.
now currently there are rig BP's out there these BP's are made inactive, you can not build rigs with them you can not research them etc. Any rigs currently under construction or BP's being researched will continue until done and when the job is delivered the BP will be inactive. Any uninstalled rigs will also become inactive also you can not install them on a ship.
I can hear people saying "Great now I have a bunch of useless crap" fear not i have a solution at all stations an additional NPC becomes available who will resize any inactive Rig BP or Rig to the size desired (Frigate, cruiser, BS or Cap size or however many sizes there are in the end), any research is preserved and passed onto the sized BP's during this process. The sized rig or BP is now usable to build the new rigs or install on the appropriate size ship. There you have not lost anything and even get to choose the size of BP or rig you get.
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![Silvana Kor'ah Silvana Kor'ah](https://images.evetech.net/characters/457972761/portrait?size=64)
Silvana Kor'ah
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.15 09:27:00 -
[49]
I fully support the OP. Taking the example of CCC rigs for actually 15m each, it would bring it to a resaonable price of 7.5m for cruisers and battlecruisers, and 1.2m for frigs and destroyers. But i also would not bother with 0.6 and 0.2 modifiers.
Besides, there could be rigs which are only one size, like the electronic and drone rigs for example.
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![Buyerr Buyerr](https://images.evetech.net/characters/229289942/portrait?size=64)
Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.05.16 09:49:00 -
[50]
you can only wonder where the devs had their heads when they didn't make this in the first place I declare war on stupidity |
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![Chani Fedaykin Chani Fedaykin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/864449404/portrait?size=64)
Chani Fedaykin
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Posted - 2008.06.19 11:19:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Chani Fedaykin on 19/06/2008 11:19:08 dont let this topic go to oblivion - i still think its a usefull idea ---
features & ideas |
![Drayco Drayco](https://images.evetech.net/characters/474524160/portrait?size=64)
Drayco
The Skype Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.06.19 11:22:00 -
[52]
/signed
and bump!
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![Zaknussem Zaknussem](https://images.evetech.net/characters/911479220/portrait?size=64)
Zaknussem
The Ironbreakers
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Posted - 2008.06.19 11:48:00 -
[53]
Except for the headaches that come about by implementing the idea (because of the existing rigs vs. the new sized-rigs) I think this is an excellent idea. |
![procurement specialist procurement specialist](https://images.evetech.net/characters/850209250/portrait?size=64)
procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.06.19 12:30:00 -
[54]
one point. introducing smaller rigs that take fewer components will both get more people using rigs and people using cheaper rigs that used to use bigger one. thus the overall effect is both up and down and should balance close to where it currently is.
rig stats can stay the same except for calibration across all classes. If someone wants to buy a bs rigs that has been optimized and put it on a frigate go for it. the salvager rigs i think take 250 or 300 calibration atm for the t2 version. meaning you cannot fit a t1 and t2 version much less 2 t2. that seems silly to me
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![Wayward Hero Wayward Hero](https://images.evetech.net/characters/791588497/portrait?size=64)
Wayward Hero
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.06.23 20:15:00 -
[55]
Bumped for being a great idea
I would love to actually want to rig my Frigates, Cruisers and Battlecruisers.
___________________________________________ The Forgotten Children of EVE |
![Kielen Dres Kielen Dres](https://images.evetech.net/characters/580496596/portrait?size=64)
Kielen Dres
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.11 03:48:00 -
[56]
I see some good ideas listed here, but what most people dont seem to look at is that CCp wont consider an idea that requires:
1) To add MASSIVE AMOUNTS of new lines to their database 2) To implement systems that require new game mechanics
Two simple solutions that utilize the current mechanics and achieve the same result are:
Since the skills to fit and build a rig are similar, why not simply give the player a refund in components when a rig is fitted. EI// If you Rig a frigate, there are some components left over (this uses the reprocessing mechanics)
OR
Use the current mechanic for R.A.Ms. If you fit a rig to a frigate or cruiser only a certain % of that rig is used. EI// Rigs can be used to Rig up either 1 BS, 2 Cruiser or 4 Frigates. This way you could make t2 ships use more than t1 varients.
My primary income comes from making rigs, and my preferred ship type for PVP is frigates and cruisers. I feel quite left out of the rigging fun :(
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![Wayward Hero Wayward Hero](https://images.evetech.net/characters/791588497/portrait?size=64)
Wayward Hero
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.07.11 04:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kielen Dres I see some good ideas listed here, but what most people dont seem to look at is that CCp wont consider an idea that requires:
1) To add MASSIVE AMOUNTS of new lines to their database 2) To implement systems that require new game mechanics
Two simple solutions that utilize the current mechanics and achieve the same result are:
Since the skills to fit and build a rig are similar, why not simply give the player a refund in components when a rig is fitted. EI// If you Rig a frigate, there are some components left over (this uses the reprocessing mechanics)
OR
Use the current mechanic for R.A.Ms. If you fit a rig to a frigate or cruiser only a certain % of that rig is used. EI// Rigs can be used to Rig up either 1 BS, 2 Cruiser or 4 Frigates. This way you could make t2 ships use more than t1 varients.
My primary income comes from making rigs, and my preferred ship type for PVP is frigates and cruisers. I feel quite left out of the rigging fun :(
CCP Chronotis recently mentioned the incorporation of sized rigs as part of a large industry overhaul, so it is looking like CCP might actually consider this idea.
___________________________________________ The Forgotten Children of EVE |
![Nemtar Nataal Nemtar Nataal](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1404226290/portrait?size=64)
Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.11 07:01:00 -
[58]
/Signed
This would make it much more sensible for people to fit rigs to small size ships cepters, dictors and maybe just maybe small size rigs could solve some of the Assault Frigate problem.
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![Phext Phext](https://images.evetech.net/characters/610765402/portrait?size=64)
Phext
Gallente Lux Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.07.11 10:54:00 -
[59]
Make them a T2 variant and therefore inventable. Instead of getting a BPC with negative ME/PE, invention results in a BPC with positive ME/PE based on what the BPO has. Tweak required materials for those variants to make them cheap enough.
This way the CCP don't need to mess with the original Rig BPOs.![Idea](/images/icon_idea.gif)
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![Madam Kaktar Madam Kaktar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1627361676/portrait?size=64)
Madam Kaktar
Jenova's Witnesses
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Posted - 2008.07.11 17:07:00 -
[60]
Definitely a good idea. And the method of having small ships/rigs have/use more calibration is a beautiful implementation.
I have just one suggestion. How about T2 ships have calibration levels equivalent to the ship size above them. Like HACs would use BS size rigs and interceptors use cruiser sized rigs. That would keep costs more appropriate to prevent an outbreak of even more nano-HACs.
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