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Ephemeron
Anti-BoB
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Posted - 2008.06.02 17:03:00 -
[121]
I fly Dominix in PvP a lot, maybe lost 100 dominixes over last 4 years, probably got 700+ kills in Dominix over same period. I don't fly Sin yet, but I am confident in my understanding of game mechanics, I know how to get the most out of a ship like that. I don't care about the whole jump portal crap, I am fully focused on small scale combat.
What I see is: Sin's extra mid slot is less useful than the lost low slot. I'd much rather have 5-7 mid/low slot layout like in Dominix. In the low slot, I can choose to put: more speed, more damage, better tank. What can I put in the extra mid slot? I already have room for the essentials: MWD, web, scramble, cap injector. 2 slots left. Sensor booster - probably best choice, or 2x sensor damps or 2x tracking disruptor. Still, these mid slot choices aren't as good as the low slot choices.
Sin's cloaking speed bonus is a major plus. It greatly increases survability of the ship when jumping into hostile camps. Even without the cloaking speed bonus, any ship with MWD+cloak has a decent chance of escaping gate camps. But gate camp with dictors on both sides of the gate make such escapes very difficult. Sin's cloaking speed bonus will pretty much cancel the gate camper's dictor advantage - because it can quickly MWD cloaked back to gate or out of the bubble before hitting warp.
The extra utlity high slot is kind of useful for medium energy neutralizer - can't fit extra heavy neut with Sin's grid. Overall it's not that big of an advantage over the Domi. The domi has extra rig slot, which is at least as useful as extra utlity high slot, if not more.
Sin can have only 4 guns, while domi (with cloak) can have 5. This is another plus for the domi. The extra gun is more important than extra high slot on some of the better PvP setups.
From purely combat perspective, I see Dominix as being a little better at tank+gank PvP, while Sin is a little weaker but with much better chances of escaping gate camps. As far as prices go, Sin is not worth 500 mil. Of course, no t2 bs price is worth it in PvP. Sin is a fun toy to play around with, when you get tired of flying the same t1 bs all the time. But it can't replace the domi as superior combat ship.
Maybe that's just as the devs wanted. Honestly I'd prefer if Sin was superior to the domi, not too much, but enough to notice. I believe the 500 mil price difference is enough for a balancing factor in PvP. Costs do matter.
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Jordan Musgrat
Convergent
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.06.02 17:19:00 -
[122]
I won't read the whole thred, but allowing blockade runners the role of refueling bobs is a very, very good idea. I had planned on takine a crane along if Black Ops every got fixed, but allowing them to jump along is a very, very good idea.
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Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Grapillon
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Posted - 2008.06.04 06:45:00 -
[123]
 Originally by: Skeltek
Edited by: Skeltek on 20/05/2008 06:48:50
Edited by: Skeltek on 20/05/2008 06:47:39
Usual a post like mine now
DROWNS
in the sheer flood of others.
But I`d like to say that I like the Black Ops like they are now.
Most people do not seem to realize, that the Black Ops ship tanks are made weaker than their t1 counterparts. In my opinion, if they would finaly HALVE the tank, people might start realizing, that these ships were never meant for regular combat. The ability of the Widow for example to jamm up to 80km range was always regarded by me as a last resort so it can defend itself at least a small bit in emergencies.
for me the main functions are still:
-stationary cloaking
-ability to let the gang do 3 jumps using the portal instead of using Jumpgates(thus evading an enemy Scout, gang and backward scout or jumping into the system the enmy gang is located in, without their forward scout seeing you)
-enough fuel to override two times 4 Jumpgates and back(saving the gang 16LY=aprox 16 jumpgates)
-mobile resupply/repair/supportstation
-high agility while flying cloaked(the only thing I might consider improving; maybe double the cloaked velocity bonus?)
kind regards, Skeltek
ps: this reminds me on the Logistic Cruiser whines back in the early days. people started using them lately, after they got additional bonuses on CPU and powergrid. In the end, they still use the same fitting I used before the bonuses were introduced.
But of course, nowdays Titans are also regarded TOTALY USELESS by everybody since the Doomsday was nerfed.
Somebody must have too much iskies. Mate sincerly fly an armageddon.
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Ramius Decimus
Caldari
House Draconis
Landsraad Ascendant Merchant Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.06 07:41:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36
My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available?
Originally by: Widow Description
Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around.
Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture.
Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right...  
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"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.06 13:24:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Ramius Decimus
That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around.
How do you propose to jump it past when it needs a covert cyno, and so a covert ops frigate already having made it past the camp, to jump to? Your post makes no sense. Might as well, assuming you already have a covops past the camp, just use that for scouting and leave the BOBS docked.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.07.07 06:22:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 07/07/2008 06:24:10
Originally by: Ramius Decimus
Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36
My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available?
Originally by: Widow Description
Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around.
Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture.
Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right...
Nothing a covert ops can't do better ... I mean you cannot warp cloaked in a BO so everybody on the grid sees you comming or you have to jump off-grid and crawl to your place. And you need a covert cyno in place to use the jump capabilities.
I can see some use for the Sin, as it can assign drones to gang mates and provide covert logistics in a limited way, but the others are quite pointless (ok Widow is a Scorp on steroids but is till too expensive to be used like one).
fuel usage and covops cloak would be a good start :-) tho I think covops cloak would make them a bit OP as gank boats in the current cloak mechanics.
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.07 06:59:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Ramius Decimus
Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36
My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available?
Originally by: Widow Description
Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around.
Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture.
Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right...
The role of a Espionage BS is obsolete. A Cov Ops frig is far superior and can also warp cloaked, thus be able to set up warpin sports for driveby's on weak sections of bigger forces etc, and it can act as a scout moving ahead.
Go on, tell us how we should fly a redeemer. Tell us what James Bond style work it is meant to do? The problem with black ops is the fundamental role issue. Its like assault frigs - Obsolete in today's pvp enviroment.
Solution starts with a role. If you want a Espionage BS, then tell us how i should operate first and its role. Then people can worry about its stats/slots etc.
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Billion Isk Mission |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.07 08:59:00 -
[128]
/signed
I'll have the skills for a Widow on the way to getting a carrier, but right now I can't see any reason to bother getting one. While they might not be so amazing in 0.0, I can definitely see some potential as a pirate, but...
1) Insane fuel use = can't jump a worthwhile support fleet. The black ops itself may not be the best combat ship ever, but if I could bridge in a couple Falcons and Rapiers with some stealth bombers for dps, it would be worth it.
2) Painfully slow lock times, AND you get the scan resolution hit from the cloak. On the Widow, it's even worse, since you have to lock more than just a single target. All that ECM is pretty useless if it takes 15-30 seconds to get it on the target. And if I try and fix it by fitting a couple sensor boosters, I lose too much ECM power.
3) Lack of covert ops cloak = forget about stealth. We've been over this with "stealth" bombers, the only way to make a cloaking ship effective in combat is with the covert ops cloak. As it is, I doubt I'd even bother putting a cloak on the ship.
So yeah, I can't really see any reason to fly one of these over my Falcon until they get a major boost.
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Adaera
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Posted - 2008.07.07 23:38:00 -
[129]
I'm bumping this - even as a new player, with fairly limited knowledge, I can see just how fun and useful this ship would be with a few well placed buffs. Hell, I'd love flying along with a raid into 0.0 spearheaded by black ops - portal us in, portal us out, no trace.
Really hope it gets fixed. 
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.08 11:59:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Ramius Decimus
Edited by: Ramius Decimus on 06/07/2008 07:42:36
My god, does no one read the ship's description? Black Ops aren't designed for combat. Why would they be if there are already viable combat battleships available?
Originally by: Widow Description
Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
That's right, it's primary role is espionage. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means spying. Gathering information. This ship is pretty good for that role, although has fuel capacity restrictions and the shitty fact you can't warp while cloaked with it make a slightly more risky ship to fly (considering the pricetag), however is ideal for team functions. If you can bypass gates you surely know are camped with a tight inty screen (which could no doubt bump a cov ops frig), than it serves it's purpose of getting comrades in to nose around.
Black Ops battleships serve a purpose, however you need to be real flexible in it's design to make it effective in that role. One way or another, it's a support ship (not a frontliner). It's concept is tailored to the bigger picture.
Likewise, there's no way I could deny it needs a little work. As long as we don't give up on it, CCP should make improvements on it (like cov ops cloak). We just gotta keep pushing. Afterall, the customer is always right...
The role of a Espionage BS is obsolete. A Cov Ops frig is far superior and can also warp cloaked, thus be able to set up warpin sports for driveby's on weak sections of bigger forces etc, and it can act as a scout moving ahead.
Go on, tell us how we should fly a redeemer. Tell us what James Bond style work it is meant to do? The problem with black ops is the fundamental role issue. Its like assault frigs - Obsolete in today's pvp enviroment.
Solution starts with a role. If you want a Espionage BS, then tell us how i should operate first and its role. Then people can worry about its stats/slots etc.
You're still pushing this line? I've given you an example of their role before. Why dont you ever actually acknowledge that? Before you start, no, I dont agree with the guy above that they're into "espionage". Thats obviously a terrible role for a slow bs that cant warp cloaked.
The role is to do DAMAGE in a cloaker-only gang, and use its jump drive and portal to put that dps and gang into places it otherwise could not get, adding the element of surprise. There is no other ship or class of ship that can accomplish this.
Yes, as I have said, before, they are gimped in this role and need a boost to the key points of this - ability to operate with a cloak fitted (scan res and speed) and ability to use the jumpportal (fuel bay, fuel use, range). They have quite a good DPS already, actually.
_______________________________________________
Mercenary Forces |
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Sweet Rosella
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Posted - 2008.07.08 12:15:00 -
[131]
think I would rather fly a manticore, but they have been nerfed latly
<img src="http://sigs.griefwatch.net/index.php?kb=spydr&name=Sweet+Rosella&template=red"> |
R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.08 15:02:00 -
[132]
Please make them better :'(
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.07.09 01:43:00 -
[133]
the sin i own sits in my hangar most of the time tbh i would rather pvp in a domi or a hyperion .
in the end what does it do ?
gank - not really mega and hypes can gank
tank - not really
sneak around cloaked - sorta but not in a meaningfull way
jump bridge - not any ship with teeth
espionage - what is there to spy on that a cov-ops frig cant do in it's off time i mean it's not that hard to sneak a cov ops frig behind enemy lines and leave him there .
it's like a whole line of ships that are just tech 2 typhoons they can do a little of everything but nothing well .
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Zamir Falconi
Point-Zero
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.07.13 11:44:00 -
[134]
I have reserved my Blackops to safe spots. They are instant primary in any engagement. They have almost no effect on the battlefield that could not be fulfilled by 5 recons at less cost. So the BO for me has reverted to staying hidden and just supporting the recons. A tool but so crippled by the logisitics it is almost impossible to use. Take my damage bonuses and give me a LY per level or cargo cap for level. anything to increase the viability of the ship.
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rgreat
Gallente
OEG
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.13 14:43:00 -
[135]
Yeah, tried Sin.
It just not really better compared to simple ishtar.
Little better tank, much slower, nearly the same damage, very bad scan resolution.
With it price and tendency to be a primary targer - Sin is worthless.
I bet other black ops are the same.
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Adaera
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Posted - 2008.07.14 11:41:00 -
[136]
Erm, got a couple of ideas for giving this ship a role.
What it's meant to do: covert espionage, and infiltration of a system.
Ideas on helping it accomplish this:
Oh, and it goes without saying but; fix the current crippling problems.
1. Boosting the espionage/spying part. For this I thought maybe some ability to intercept (view) private/fleet/corp chats within a system, but not sure about that one - especially as a lot will be using stuff like ventrilo anyway.
But the other idea on this is mounting a module like this:
Scan pulse projector
High/mid slot?
X power grid
massive CPU usage
This highly advanced unit allows the ship to send out a multifrequency scan across a wide area, with far greater precision than ordinary scanners.
99% reduction in CPU usage when fitted to black ops vessels
In effect, this module acts like scan probes do - it lets them locate and warp to ships out in safespots/wherever else. Not sure what kind of range it would have. Maybe it could also make the ships location appear on the solar system map?
Adding a module like this would allow the black ops ship to function as a sort of command ship to a covert fleet, precisely locating enemy ships and directing other ships to them without cumbersome methods like probing.
2. Boosting the stealth part. The idea I had here was fitting some module or whatever that gives the ship the ability to hide itself and the gang on local chat, as well as letting it fit a covert ops cloak.
This would let the black ops ship portal a small force in, and hide them from even local channel. This is powerful, but it's justified by the formiddable cost of this ship, in my opinion. If this was implemented, a covert ops force would go from "sneaky" to absolutely invisible, and would allow the force to scout about and even make surprise attacks without the enemy even knowing they're there.
Now, all this stuff could be mixed and matched, but I think it would certainly give them a role, and allow for gangs arranged around a black ops battleship at the heart of it.
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rgreat
Gallente
OEG
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.14 12:27:00 -
[137]
Edited by: rgreat on 14/07/2008 12:33:19
Black ops must use covert ops cloak.
And even that will not make it too popular.
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dichroic
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Posted - 2008.07.14 22:34:00 -
[138]
Edited by: dichroic on 14/07/2008 22:35:10
needs more jump range
Also the idea of warping cloaked is kinda kewl but i dont think it will help the class much if there is no other changes made, like i say it needs to be able to portal and jump further than 4ly, either the base rate should be increased or 1 of the usless combat bonus on the ship could be swaped out for a 25% increase in jump range.
Only downside to that i can forsee is u spawn a covert hauler, a seprate bay for jump fule and a limited (but not to small for ammo+cap boosters etc) cargo bay would solve that tho |
Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:31:00 -
[139]
To bad i didnt read this post before i bought my redeemer.. as someone of bob said make it an hauler.. cargo expanders.. on it and its a safe way to transport goods from empire to low sec to get it to your carrier..
ill read the rest of these posts..
www.garia.net |
MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.16 00:15:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Amarr Holymight
A cov-ops ship that doesn't have cov-ops abilities seems like a major fail. I like the blockade runner idea.
This.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
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Posted - 2008.07.16 10:56:00 -
[141]
Any dev who is will to tell they will look in to it, or tell us this is how it is intended so we can move along.. please..
would be nice to know if the devs agree or not agree..
www.garia.net |
ddred
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:46:00 -
[142]
Edited by: ddred on 25/07/2008 14:49:33
My ideal widow. You could also replace the missile velocity bonus with the ate of fire bonus. But with the velocity bonus you would reach up to 270KM range with cruise missiles. Note i also changed the developer for the roleplayers ;)
Hull: Scorpion Class
Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
Developer: Ishukone
Most of the recent designs off their assembly line have provided for a combination that the Ishukone name is becoming known for: great long-range capabilities and shield systems unmatched anywhere else..
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level
Black Ops Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM target jammer strength and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators and covert jump portal generators. No targeting delay after decloaking
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Osiris Occido
The Nightshift
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:56:00 -
[143]
Need some assistance. Once I open the bridge to the covert cyno, how do people use the bridge
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Perfect Quality with Windows Movie Maker |
Osiris Occido
The Nightshift
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Posted - 2008.07.29 22:38:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Osiris Occido
Need some assistance. Once I open the bridge to the covert cyno, how do people use the bridge
I figured it out. have to right-click the black op ship itself and choose Jump To (system name)
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Perfect Quality with Windows Movie Maker |
Al0ne
Black Fury
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Posted - 2008.08.02 08:28:00 -
[145]
BLAH wish i read this before splashing a load of isks out on a sin
the ship is a joke , undocked it twice to check my setup and havnt used it since , cargobay is to small to put everything in , and you cant even warp cloaked *sigh*
is anything being done to this ship?
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Etienne Merten
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Posted - 2008.08.02 21:32:00 -
[146]
OMG. I've done it again. I read a dev blog about a new ship type. I spend months training up for it. I get the skills and go buy my shiny new Widow.
First thing I fit on a Covert BS? A Covert Ops Cloak! DENIED!
Wtf? I'm sorry. I had to read this entire thread, just to be sure someone hadn't just been screwing with me.
Why the hell would I take this out of the station if it can't be stealthy while flying around? It's like a spy with a "I'm a spy!" flashing neon on his forehead...they see you warp in...oops...shhh, Clouseau is back!
I like the these requests, in order of priority:
- Covert Ops Cloak - or this class is dead
- Longer jump rage - something halfway between current and Cap Ship range
- Fix the fuel/cargo problem - I like the "let the ones jumping carry their own damned fuel!" approach
- Expand the bubble to 10km - so a covert fleet can at least TRY not to bump each other while getting ready to jump!
CCP - Don't make me wait any more, after all the training, ISK and anticipation I put into this useless hanger-decoration!!!!!!!!!
A happy Boffin... |
Javelin6
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Posted - 2008.08.23 00:06:00 -
[147]
/signed for adding a Fuel Bay and making cov-ops bring their own fuel.
Allowing covert cynos into cyno jammed systems would be nice to.
As far as letting it use the covert-ops cloak, its my personal opinion that it would be unbalanced. However I offer it can be balanced by making the covert-ops cloak to be able to be probed out when fitted to a BO-BS. Standard cloaks would continue to be un-probable.
This will force pilots to have to choose whether or not absolute stealth or stealthy mobility is more desired when fitting the ship.
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Onionico
Series of Tubes
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Posted - 2008.08.24 07:22:00 -
[148]
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
Please make them better :'(
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.24 09:33:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 24/08/2008 09:33:08
Besides the general problems (lack of covops cloak, fuel/jump range issues), it really seems like these ships were designed with some dice and a dartboard. The designes just feel really random and incomplete:
Sin: ok, so it's a T2 Dominix. We'll just ignore the fact that thanks to the completely stupid tier system it has to be a Dominix instead of a Hyperion or Megathron (the Dominix should be the marauder). Ok, so it's a T2 Dominix with grid problems, but other than that, it looks fine. Until we get to the WTF AGILITY BONUS. This HAS to be a dartboard bonus, I can't think of any reason to make the ship, get 95% of it finished, and just add a completely random and useless bonus that has nothing to do with the rest of the ship.
Redeemer: actually, this is probably the best and most consistent design. 3x gun bonuses, the maximum possible 6x guns, keeps the 125m3 drones of the Armageddon. For a ship that's meant to add damage to recon gangs, it's pretty much perfect.
Panther: sure, the bonuses are fine, pre-nano-nerf. With BS speeds getting nerfed heavily, speed fitting this ship is going to be pretty useless. And WTF is with the 5x gun slots? As if projectiles weren't bad enough, now it gets fewer weapon slots than the Redeemer?
Widow: ok, long post time. As a Caldari pilot, this is the one I'm most familiar with. So, what is the Widow's problem? It has two completely contradictory ideas.
The missile ROF/velocity bonuses and short locking range pretty strongly hint at a torp gank fit, but that means ignoring the ECM bonus to fit a (somewhat underwhelming) tank and the required painter. Oh, and WTF at 5x launcher slots?
The ECM bonus says the obvious, but that means ignoring the missile bonuses. And without the required range bonus or any kind of tank, the Widow is a very expensive suicide ship. At close range with only base HP for a "tank", the Widow will die almost instantly the moment it fails a jam cycle. The result: terrible ECM ship that's inferior in every way to the Falcons it will be jumping in.
What about a mix of both? Forget it. Torps require damage mods and a painter, which means few mids free for ECM and no SDAs to make it effective. Try it and you'll just get the worst of both worlds, a ship with mediocre damage, mediocre ewar, and a paper-thin "tank" that won't even last long enough for you to warp out if you fail a jam cycle with that mediocre ewar.
What about cruise missiles? Forget it. Damage becomes laughable, the short base lock range means you have to give up some of your valuable mids, and you can't even use your ECM at effective cruise missile range. It's pretty much worse than the Redeemer in every way at the long-range support role.
Even ignoring all that for a moment, the design isn't even a good one. It just has complete anti-synergy with the ships it's supposed to work with. What are Caldari recons best at? Jamming from long range. What are they worst at? Doing damage from that long range. What does the Widow give you? More of the ECM you've already got plenty of, and none of the damage you need.
And even if the torp fit was completely awesome, it would STILL have that anti-synergy. If I'm dropping a Caldari black ops + recons + bombers on a target, where am I going to put the cyno? A minimum of 150km from the target. What exactly is my Widow going to be doing from that range? Exactly nothing.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.24 09:42:00 -
[150]
So what to do with the poor Widow? Well, there are three options:
1) Focus on ECM. Put the range bonus and ewar strength bonus from the Scorpion back on the Caldari battleship skill, increase the base lock range so the Widow can actually jam at 150+ km, and move the missile velocity bonus to the black ops skill (so your token cruise missiles can actually hit something maybe). It's still kind of redundant next to Falcons, but at least it's decent enough at the ECM role to do it if you aren't jumping Falcons.
2) Focus on missiles. Give it the 6th missile slot, change the ECM bonus to shield resists (or something else useful with torps), add more base shield HP, and possibly more grid (in addition to the grid required for the 6th launcher). Short range still has huge anti-synergy with long range Caldari recons, but at least now it's a solid damage dealer.
3) Scrap the whole thing completely. Scrap the Widow, and scrap the tier system so it can become a T2 Rokh like it should be:
Name: Widowmaker
Hull: Rokh Class
Role: Black Ops
After the utter failure of the Widow, Caldari Navy Intelligence scrapped the few surviving hulls and re-opened the competition. The Widowmaker is the result: a fleet battleship capable of providing devastating firepower from the full range of its Falcon and Manticore escorts.
Developer: Ishukone
The Widowmaker is the ultimate expression of the Ishukone design philosophy: "range is the best tank". Including the best sub-capital shield systems in the known universe was just a nice bonus.
Caldari Battleship skill bonus: 10% large hybrid turret optimal range and 5% shield resists per level.
Black Ops skill bonus: 5% large hybrid damage per level and 96-100% CPU reduction for cloaking devices.
Slot layout: 8 high, 6 mid, 5 low. 6 turrets, 0 launchers. 50m3 drone bay, 25m3 bandwidth.
Now you have a ship with excellent synergy with Falcons and Manticores, nice damage, but more importantly, instant-hit nice damage that is effective over the full 100-250km range of the ships you'll be jumping in. Drop the cyno at 150km, jump in the black ops fleet, and everyone's right at their optimal and contributing to the fight right away. And hey, you can even fit a half-decent blaster setup if you really want that close-range ship.
Yes, making this ship would require re-balancing the other black ops (not because it's overpowered compared to the rest of EVE, but a balanced ship vs. 3x sucky ones?), but they need it anyway.
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