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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.07 06:43:00 -
[31]
I was testing it with a corpmate, and for it to have any mobility (I mean jumping into a target area, and jumping back out) it needs to be packed with jump fuel, which doesn't allow for any room for any ammunition or any thing else. also fitting guns and a tank is almost impossible, something that can be accomplished easily on the 1 version of the ship.
For starters I think that they should have a separate fuel bay, that can hold enough fuel at least to make 1 full-range jump with minimal skills.
They also need some fitting help, you need to be able to fit guns and tank at the same time
A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.07 07:39:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 07/02/2008 07:43:39 deleted
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Pakokkie
Caldari Under Heavy Fire
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Posted - 2008.02.07 17:32:00 -
[33]
I am flying a black ops and it is much fun. You just need a partner with a covert cyno field. That way you can make use of the widow as it is. On the other hand I think the resistance of shields on this ship are too low. Lets hope ccp wakes up and makes some adjustments to make it a more versatile ship.
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adriaans
Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising
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Posted - 2008.02.08 14:00:00 -
[34]
i thought they were good until i found that they could not warp cloaked...
-sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! (Or make Amarr the only race able to deal EM damage from turrets).
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fireraven
The Singularity Amalgamation Pure.
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Posted - 2008.02.09 07:33:00 -
[35]
Edited by: fireraven on 09/02/2008 07:33:48 black ops ships are fine expt for 2 things if ccp fixed this it would be a feildable 400m isk ship and balanced not a own all ride. this coming form somone that actualy flies one and still uses it for pvp. #1 remove scan res penelty or add a skill to help with it (no covert op clock that would make em wayyyy over powered lol) #2 add a fuel bay (add a fuel bay to the ship that can hold isotopes only they did it for stront they can do it for these not a 10km3 bay but at least a 2-3km3 bay as of right now you cant jump anything via jump bridge worth a snot and jump the black ops caz of the fuel shortage you can bring haulers behind a covert fleet but that would cinda defeat the whole reason lol.)
Now the black ops can be a deep strike weapon by it self but we all know what happen's when you bring 6-7 battle ships w/o support they get riped up. These are easy fixes ccp can do while maintaining balance and making the ship fleet worthy. Probly even increasing the value and you would defenatly see more in fleet fights being a carrier pilot since forever i was more then happy to get and use one on the live sever rather then lug around the carrier lol.
SOME MUST BE TOLD OTHERS MUST BE SHOWN |
Brother Welcome
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Posted - 2008.02.09 10:03:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kil'Roy Edited by: Kil''Roy on 07/02/2008 09:37:00 Decided not to be part of a thread of those who seem to be looking for the next "Gank Mobile"
For my part, I'm after a way to play Eve other than lagfests and nanoes. At present the only ships that can do roaming gangage are lights. Or if you are in a fleet then drones and fighters ftw while we paying humans wait for our modules to activate. As a BS lover I feel like the fat kid in the shoolyard 'x up nanoes, dictors, intys, covops..., no Brother Welcome, we don't want any BS'
Black Ops won't match the equivalent BS 1:1, and they cost a lot more. On the other hand, they are a BS with mobility and the chance to move in dangerous territory without being a gank magnet. Add to that a potential strategic role.
So I'm glad you decided to be part of this thread, so I could rebut the inevitable rhetoric about Black Ops fanciers wanting something imba. TYVM.
:)
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Aceformat
Caldari Advanced Response Division G Thanks Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.09 11:59:00 -
[37]
After 3 months of skilling and alot of mining to build it, my stary eyes filled with hope and happiness were soon dulled with the reality of what a pathetic ship my Widow was.
Covert ops cloak ... nope Enough cargo for fuel, ammo, ect ... nope Enough CPU/PG to fit it half decent ... nope Chances of killing a T1 battleship 1v1 ... none existent Being able to jump bridge your guys with the fuel you have ... not a chance
Why I worked so hard to skill for this ship I have no idea, bog standard resists, less hp than a T1 battleship, less high slots for dps than most T1 battleships, and the recharge rate on the shields is absolutely atrocious.
What was the pride and joy when I first climbed in it, now sits in my hangar, I'm hoping Marauders are not as useless as this thing.
Ok, so enough whining on my part, what can be done, I'm guessing since this is CCP we'll find out in 3 years. I honestly wouldn't know where to begin.
Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do. |
steini
PURE Legion Pure.
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Posted - 2008.02.14 17:23:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Aceformat Covert ops cloak ... nope Enough cargo for fuel, ammo, ect ... nope Enough CPU/PG to fit it half decent ... nope Chances of killing a T1 battleship 1v1 ... none existent Being able to jump bridge your guys with the fuel you have ... not a chance
signed........plz fix the black ops
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Inanara
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Posted - 2008.02.15 08:18:00 -
[39]
I was wondering why I'd seen so little on these ships being discussed.
Since they appear to suck I know now why no one is talking about them *cries*
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HolIy smoke
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Posted - 2008.02.15 10:28:00 -
[40]
as a black op's pilot for the large portion of what has been said I simply dont agree. What is wrong with black ops simply is that people expectations are way to high. It is after all, a battle ship.....with a view to logistics.
Why on earth would it then be able to beat another battleship 1v1....when it is ment to be sneaky and logisticy. On the fuel issue.....for the portal...again its a battle ship.....think a little about its size vs the size of a recon...and realistically...the fuel amount it uses is correct. As is the fuel it needs to jump....which is right for battleship vs what a carrier uses for the same distance of jump.
This is not a titan, and imho was never intended to operate as one. If you want to bridge unlimited fleets with a logistics ship that can do it all...get a titan.. Black ops is the much much much cheaper alternative. just compare the prices and the sizes...and be realistic....
As for usage...understanding now what it is....you might then move onto the thoughts that having to now plan specifically for its use to get fuel to the right places etc actually isnt to bad. After all...youve saved what 30 bil or so on buying a titan...so whats a sneaky can drop a day or two before the op.
All im saying is be realistic about this....the black ops is not nerfed.....it is a battleship sized logistics ship...able to with planning and execution....add huge advantages to a covert gang. I detect though that most are not liking hte planning part. and thus see it as nerfed. How i challenge you, can it be realistic to expect a battleship to jump portal a whole fleet there and back and still jump itself and then be able perform admirably on the combat field......
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Attilah
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Posted - 2008.02.15 11:20:00 -
[41]
Quote: able to with planning and execution....add huge advantages to a covert gang.
I would love to know what those might be
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HolIy smoke
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Posted - 2008.02.15 16:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Attilah
Quote: able to with planning and execution....add huge advantages to a covert gang.
I would love to know what those might be
using the black ops as a portable jump bridge for covert ships for example....to shorcut loops etc. pre planning could involve dropping gsc's with fuel at set ss's on the route. This is easier than setting up pos, claiming sov and getting jump portals setup i thought. sure has a few more disadvantages....but for a similar effect why not put the work into it. Maybe i just see the black ops as the portal and think along the lines of you need to keep fueling a portal, it takes work and plannig to get the network up etc.....and everyone else seems to expect it to be self sustaining.
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Zarch AlDain
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.02.15 17:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: HolIy smoke
Originally by: Attilah
Quote: able to with planning and execution....add huge advantages to a covert gang.
I would love to know what those might be
using the black ops as a portable jump bridge for covert ships for example....to shorcut loops etc. pre planning could involve dropping gsc's with fuel at set ss's on the route. This is easier than setting up pos, claiming sov and getting jump portals setup i thought. sure has a few more disadvantages....but for a similar effect why not put the work into it. Maybe i just see the black ops as the portal and think along the lines of you need to keep fueling a portal, it takes work and plannig to get the network up etc.....and everyone else seems to expect it to be self sustaining.
So months training and hundreds of millions of isk for a glorified jump potral that can only take ships that can warp cloaked anyway for the most part (and hence are the least in need of jumping places)...
...hmmm....
Zarch AlDain
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HolIy smoke
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Posted - 2008.02.15 19:46:00 -
[44]
wasnt the covert part the whole point? or did i miss it..... oh and only skills i needed where black ops and portal gen.... so no not months of training.
Its obviously a thing of opinion....either you fancy stealth ops or you dont... I dont mind if you do or dont...but all i was trying to point out was that theres more to this ship than people are giving it credit for. I wont post anymore....as sometimes theres just no point :P
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Hyron
Crimson Order
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Posted - 2008.02.16 15:11:00 -
[45]
bought sin. was not impressed by sin. bought navy mega. was happy.
wts sin / wtb black ops fix
hyron
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DaeMon ix
Minmatar Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.02.29 22:54:00 -
[46]
I also skilled for these expecting to be able to use the stealth side in a variety of ways particularly in npc 0.0 where cyno jammers cant exist. I am also regretting the training time and isk spent on a panther. Hopefully ccp will sort this out soon so it hasn't all been in vain.
I dont mind the limited grid, cpu and hp. As an overgrown stealthbomber I have been able to fit it as a reasonably good sniper boat; though with less range than a tempest it is still perfectly usable. The one thing above all that comes from several test runs is the fuel consumption of the accompanying ships, stealthbombers use 150 istopes per light year travelled and recons around 760 per light year travelled. Without fitting expanders and reducing ammunition carried to pretty low amounts I can squeeze in enough to support maybe 6 stealthbombers or 3 and a recon, sorry but thats pathetic as a battleforce and would achieve absolutely nothing. Oh and the bs itself would be left behind for lack of fuel btw.
A simple answer to this is to let each ship using the portal carry its own fuel and use that in priority to whatever fuels the bs is holding. Admittedly that means there is no limit to the number of stealth ships able to use it other than the 30 second portal time and 60 second covert cyno time but I dont see that as a major problem since you would need 15-20 sb's and a couple recons to be able to give anyone a headache properly. Bear in mind the short ranges allowed remove the threat of a long range attack without making multiple jumps (fuel limits this) or flying conventionally most of the way (Exposes a very expensive ship to all sorts of dangers with a poor support gang)
Just my two-pennorth but let the ships using the portal supply their own fuel and this becomes a viable ship again imho.
Nil Illegitimae Carborundum ! |
fireraven
The Singularity Amalgamation Pure.
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Posted - 2008.03.02 08:28:00 -
[47]
also i think the jump portal is completely busted i cant get mien to work on the live sever tried black ops cyno as jump to had every recon cruiser stealth bomber covert ops class there is try and use it and its a no go. petition filed on live sever still no responce.
SOME MUST BE TOLD OTHERS MUST BE SHOWN |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.03.03 19:04:00 -
[48]
I don't think they're even good on paper...
They need to have enough fuel space to jump themselves and a decent team of recons/covops a reasonable distance behind enemy lines and them jump them back.
Having to faff about with jettison cans is a no-no. It feels utterly clunky and cludgy.
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El Mauru
Amarr Nexus Analytics Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.03.03 20:22:00 -
[49]
Giving blackops a covops cloak would be overpowered :-P
IMHO give them an extra fuel bay and probably up their distance to 5-6 ly.
Other than that they are fine imho. -
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Waxau
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Posted - 2008.03.03 22:06:00 -
[50]
Please, keep in mind that i have only flown the Widow, and that my understanding of these ships may vary from yours. However, my view of black ops is a simple one:
A covert ship, that combines damage and 'recon' like bonuses. However, this brings up many issues.
Now lets say for matter of convenience that all the ships are balanced between each other. In other words, the bonuses on all ships are set in stone. This provides the Widow with many issues. Ill list them below:
Lock time - ECM boats 'should' lock fast, to provide the support nessesary. I say this, due to the rather 'uniform' style of ecm boats so far. The only one that differs ofcourse is the scorpion. Fair enough. However, with the sig resolution nerf that Black Ops gain when fitting the cloak, it becomes far longer than the Scorpions lock time. So fair enough, you fit a sensor booster. Simple. But this then leads onto more issues...
With using a mid slot for a sensor booster, you are doing two things to your Widow. You are either losing a tank, or losing an ECM, which ofc is where your bonuses reside. So you have 8 mids...1 sensor booster. So 7 slots for ECM and/or tank/tackling/mwd etc. Which then leads me onto my next point:
ECM or Tank? When flying around a 500 mil (unfitted cost) BS, the last thing you want, is to not have your isk have its worth in combat. However, when it comes to ECM, the Widow is. Fair enough, it has a BS dps aswell. But at what cost? The ECM range of the Widow is roughly 70km if i recall. That 70km means that a drake can shoot at it (if not jammed) with ease. No snipe setup needed. Not the best thing to hear when using over half a bil in combat.
However, it ends there not! The issue that is most annoying for myself is that of the role it has for ECM. ECM as we all know, is luck based. So whats the decission? Tank, or ECM, the luck based tank?
Where im sitting, i see many fallbacks on the 'paper' side of black ops, or more importantly the Widow. All of its attributes go against what its meant to be (And ECM Boat). It gets even worse, when you consider that all of the other races dont have to fit a specific module in order to gain the bonuses (Lets face it, a redeemer with no guns?).
This makes me think to myself, why do the other 3 races differ in their bonuses?
For me, a good start to black ops getting back on track, would be making the bonuses equal to their counterparts (Rook/Falcon, Curse/Pilgrim, Lachesis/Arazu, Huggin/Rapier). Im sure many wont want this, however to me, they are the larger, more powerful versions. Failing that, id love to see the Widow then become untied from this role.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:56:00 -
[51]
Yeah, the poor widow. I wonder where it's niche is supposed to be. Taking a 500m ship with no tank into fleet combat would be lunacy (that's what insured scorpions are for) and for small gangs you'd be better off with a smaller more agile much cheaper much faster locking falcon/rook.
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Pilgrippa
0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.03.04 21:49:00 -
[52]
Yeah I expect more out of a 500-600 million isk ship. I could only see myself paying that much if they could warp cloaked. As it stands, for what they can do, they should cost half that much.
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Guillome Renard
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Posted - 2008.03.06 18:53:00 -
[53]
I too am dissapointed in Black Ops ships, though I'll admit I've yet to actually climb behind the wheel of one.
What I would like to see is instead of a class-specific filter for what can use the jump bridge, something like the Warp Strength system. If your attribute is of a value of X or better, you can use the jump bridge. This means that you can use the Jump-bridge to move anything you can get that attribute to X or better on.
This gives the Black Ops ship some serious logistical and strategic flexibility, while at the same time, pre-nerfing anything that you're going to slip behind enemy lines because they'd probably be fitting modules and rigs in order to qualify for the JB. I also have no problem with folks having to do it one ship at a time and costing tons of fuel.
As it stands, it's an oversized stealth bomber without the defensive ability or escape potential. It can take a small gang of CO ships into another system (in very specific circumstances) where they will be immediately detected and hunted down.
One of the best things about EVE is its VAST strategic and tactical flexibility. This should be expanded... albeit carefully. I support the existence of ships like this, I just hope that EVE will become as much about strategic thinking as possible, and less about formulaic operations which require no real thought.
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Dapanman1
Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.07 16:08:00 -
[54]
Can you covert cyno in a cyno jammed system?
If you cant that could be a quick and easy fix to this problem. Discuss. Beets, you're among friends. |
Lethos Aranis
Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.08 02:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dapanman1 Can you covert cyno in a cyno jammed system?
If you cant that could be a quick and easy fix to this problem. Discuss.
But what's that going to achieve? Only the COs can use the JB and only a few of them per BO which won't even put a dent into the enemy.
You can't jump in caps lol.
I was really looking forward to flying a Widow but the more I read about BOs on forums, the less I want to train the skills. Seems like an absolute waste of time and money at this point which is a real shame as it has potential. Just one thing, I'm assuming in Eve there must be a cyno/JB/gate to jump? There's no possibility of something like in X3 where you can jump anywhere in range without needed someone else or an alt to setup a destination? Am I right in assuming this screws with game mechanics and lore?
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2008.03.08 02:40:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Dapanman1 Can you covert cyno in a cyno jammed system?
I can conclusively say that you cannot generate a covert cyno in a cyno jammed system, at least not on tq. I hadn't even considered that downside until I had the ship.
It would certainly make things more interesting if cyno jammers didn't jam covert cynos, though.
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Aramova
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.08 05:46:00 -
[57]
I personally own a Sin and Widow. The Sin is quite a bit worse off then the Domi in all aspects, although the agility bonus it gets makes me drool when I think about the old nano-domi days, that would of been fearsome.
The Widow is hands down the best jamming ship in game once you hit Black Ops 5, although the price on it makes it not very practical in fleets.
With that, I'd like to see a couple changes to the BlackOps battleships...
- CoverOp Cloak as stated before: Since the ship does not deliver DPS or any kind of directly impacting systems to hostiles locally, it fits more in line with the Covert Ops style ships. Helios scanner, Arazu cyno, Sin Jump Bridge.
- 3.5ly Base Jump Range: Could not travel with a dread or Carrier, but 2ly is very very heavily pre-nerfed.
- 60% reduction in jump drive/portal fuel costs: This would solve a lot of the issues faced, they already have decent cargo holds but lack the space for ammo of any sort plus fuel. Also by doing this, you provide a logical method of letting bombers carry what fuel in what space they have left when they travel with a Black Ops (300 Isotopes per bomber would fit even with two bombs and some cruise missiles)
- Relative racial HAC resistances IF not given Cloak: To combat direct hostiles the following are true: Bombers got a bonus to damage of Cruise Missiles, Combat Recons got HAC resistances and weapon bonuses. Covert Ops and Force Recons got Covert Ops Cloaks.
- 40% reduction in powergrid need for Covert Jump Portal Generator.
Thoughts? --
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DarkXeRoX
Exanimo Inc
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Posted - 2008.03.08 10:49:00 -
[58]
Give it a bit more resist, and a seperate hold for fuel and decrease the cost a bit on the fuel.
Increase the jump range to 3.5ly so it can jump alrightish but not tag with the big boys.
Covert ops cloak would make it a bit overpowered.
Maybe a tad more power and cpu on all of em as i had a go at the redeemer and its bloody hard to get a setup decent enough with a cloak and jump portal.
its not mend as a solo boat so it has to rely on support from its recon buddies, but should be able to pack a setup decent enough to not die to everybody just like that.
ESP for the price tag they got atm, 500-600m for a ship that has all kinds of broken functions on it ? like buying a ferrari with a fiat panda engine in it.
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Waxau
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Posted - 2008.03.08 11:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Aramova
The Widow is hands down the best jamming ship in game once you hit Black Ops 5, although the price on it makes it not very practical in fleets.
I have to say, i disagree with this. With the widow being a BS, its far slower than the falcon, with a far longer lock time, and lock range. Yes, it may have strong ecm. But due to the lack in range AND lock speed, it is far worse than the falcon. Combined with the fact that it cannot warp cloaked, screws up its survivability. Thus, its ECM is very short lived in most scenarios.
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Poht
Minmatar Taurus Inc
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Posted - 2008.03.08 15:24:00 -
[60]
I've been reading through the entire thread and seen some valid claims and some useless ones.
But after giving it a bit of thought I saw that there's one thing that noone mentions here, think of an alliance, any alliance. they have in theyr rooster 6 pilots able to field BO's and I'm holding back here, a scout spots a system that has some pos worth shooting. they jump in a BO, he along with his scout conclude that this is a good spot to hit, and figure out the best time for it. later on we have a total of 6 BO's they jump in every possible ship they can and the recons put up cyno's for capitals.
POS is put into reinforced, the capitals jump out leaving enough fuel for the rest of the fleet to get out. The POS may or may not be destroyed later on, but it surely can be a viable tactic to disrupt jump bridges, production or whatever and even get the focus of your enemy to the wrong location before u do the real attack.
My point is that the BO can start a cyno to let in recons to escalate it further, and having it being able to get further may be good, but imagine an alliance with 20+ BO pilots, we're already talking about a sizeable force that can get into an operation and wreak havoc in local. Don't forget the huge increase if u get even more ships in with it......
Am I totally off track here or???
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