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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.14 03:17:00 -
[1]
OK so I've been skilling towards a Thanatos for a little while now, and right about when I'd feel happy hopping in it, the nerfbat comes out. Of course, every carrier is going to feel the changes, but the number of fighters nerf will directly strike the Thanatos' unique bonus, the 5% fighter damage bonus.
I've had a look for other threads on the matter, but haven't found anything specific. Has CCP made any mention if the 5% damage bonus stays with the fighters when they're assigned to gangmates? I'm not sure how easy that would be to do, but I think that if something isn't arranged the Thanatos will go from the most popular to the least popular carrier pretty quickly. At least, as quick as they die and aren't replaced.
I imagine CCP probably wouldn't want to have a third tanking carrier (EG give the Thanatos an armor rep boost instead of fighter damage) but I'm not sure what other bonus would be useful on it. Further fuel reductions? Sensor strength bonus per level?
Opinions? |
Dianeces
Minmatar Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.14 03:39:00 -
[2]
Fighter nerf was cancelled, tbh.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2007.12.14 03:48:00 -
[3]
Fighter nerf was postponed... and yes, the exact same thoughts has been troubling me. I doubt we'll see a repper bonus, even if I wouldn't have complained.
Postcount: 814795
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.14 06:15:00 -
[4]
As a Thanatos pilot, I can't wait for the fighter nerf.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.14 06:54:00 -
[5]
Interesting Bellum, can you share what the changes will mean for you?
Man that sounds sarcastic, but I am genuinely interested. I need a reason to keep skilling down the carrier path. :) |
Riho
Northen Breeze
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Posted - 2007.12.14 07:15:00 -
[6]
i dont think they will nerf the carriers like that.. but will see ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online.
dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue |
Laeresh Ergaard
Gallente Livy Varangian Nation
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Posted - 2007.12.14 10:14:00 -
[7]
Personally I see no big tragedy in fighter nerf.
The fun of piloting a carrier is in managing your arsenal of bonuses for surrounding gangmates û such as WLÆs, assigned fighters, shield-armor reppers.
This is what a carrier Pilot career about, not just Ctrl+Shift+A with a mob of fighters. ;)
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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.14 15:19:00 -
[8]
I'm not complaining specifically about the fighter nerf, more how it will overly affect the Thanatos compared to the other carriers. |
Laeresh Ergaard
Gallente Livy Varangian Nation
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Posted - 2007.12.14 15:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Laeresh Ergaard on 14/12/2007 15:40:19
I guess the idea is to force us to assign fighters, not to make Thanatos weaker, so my bet is that the bonus will stay with assigned fighters.
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Troye
Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2007.12.14 16:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Laeresh Ergaard Personally I see no big tragedy in fighter nerf.
The fun of piloting a carrier is in managing your arsenal of bonuses for surrounding gangmates û such as WLÆs, assigned fighters, shield-armor reppers.
This is what a carrier Pilot career about, not just Ctrl+Shift+A with a mob of fighters. ;)
Yes the fun of flying a carrier is sitting near a POS and knowing that your warfare links are imparting passive bonus's and imagining the awsome battle that must be taking place somewhere within the same system as you. Oh the joy.
Yes bring on the carrier nerf... _______________________________________________
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Xeios
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Troye
Originally by: Laeresh Ergaard Personally I see no big tragedy in fighter nerf.
The fun of piloting a carrier is in managing your arsenal of bonuses for surrounding gangmates û such as WLÆs, assigned fighters, shield-armor reppers.
This is what a carrier Pilot career about, not just Ctrl+Shift+A with a mob of fighters. ;)
Yes the fun of flying a carrier is sitting near a POS and knowing that your warfare links are imparting passive bonus's and imagining the awsome battle that must be taking place somewhere within the same system as you. Oh the joy.
Yes bring on the carrier nerf...
Quite honestly although it is dull this should be how they are used with the occaisional nutty/daring pilot actually taking them into combat.
In practice this is not how they work at all. Capital ships are too cheap IMO, almost every man and his dog has a cap ship now, in the grand scheme of things they are cheap to buy and fit when balanced against how effective they are in a large fleet. Im sure youve all heard the stories now of major alliances jumping caps in on small gangs all the time, if they were all much more expensive this would happen alot less allowing for more actual engagements.
Now dont get me wrong, this isnt a whine at the alliances that do jump them in all the time, its game mechanics, im not going to say they shouldnt because at the end of the day i could do it myself if i actually wanted to own a cap.
My view of caps was always that they should be fairly uncommon and yet very effective when used. This nerf will stem from the fact that they are very common now and so cannot be as effective to balance the fact.
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Chomapuraku
Templar Republic R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.12.14 17:41:00 -
[12]
if every man and his dog has a cap ship and they're too cheap, you'd think theyd be parked at 350 km for every gatecamp and cynoing onto every roaming gang. it's a terrible shame how infrequently they see the front lines of anything except pos sieges.
on that note, props to IC for putting their caps on the front line every time the fight comes to you. that's how they were meant to be used
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dust monkey
Minmatar Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:05:00 -
[13]
i hope CCP are working on a way to give assigned fighters your skill bonus, this is probably why it was delayed till next patch.
but i would still like to be able to control a max of 15 standard drones. As I use a lot of e-war drones / logistics drones too.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Interesting Bellum, can you share what the changes will mean for you?
Man that sounds sarcastic, but I am genuinely interested. I need a reason to keep skilling down the carrier path. :)
I fly a Thanatos, and a Moros as well. I have a lot of skill points invested in each of them. I have fighters to 5 for instance, jump drive calibration to 5, and I'm half way done with Gal Carrier 5.
But carriers have just become the new defacto top of the food chain for ships. They're now as common place as battleships, with motherships becoming extremely common place, especially in low sec where they're unstoppable. A few heavy dictors arn't going to put much of a dent in a MS. It'll just put 25x fighters on one, watch it go pop, and jump out a minute later.
I'm tired of having Nyxs and Chimeras jumped in when it *was* a nice little 3v3 or 4v4 gang fight or whatever. The other side doesn't even have to be losing, they just jump their cap ship in, and people will have more waiting, in case you decide to jump in one of your own. I've seen a 4v4 BS fight turn into an 8v8 capship fight in less than 60 seconds. It's stupid.
I fight in low sec primarily. In .4 sec you can't even delegate fighters, so the Thanatos and it's damage bonus would be doubly useless if fighters were nerfed but I still think it needs to happen.
Carriers got a nice buff with their ship hangars and BS volumes, allowing them to move rigged BS around. That helps me a lot because I'm a pirate and I use my carriers (we have more than half a dozen in our little corp) to move my team around.
Carriers just suck the fun out of fights, especially at stations, where if you don't bump them out of dock range, they'll always have enough time to deagress and just dock up, so it's pointless to try and attempt to kill them. It's just not fun gameplay. And when ships like these can be used for the primary offensive component of a gang it just ends up being lame when you have a few interceptors, a cyno ship, and some falcons flying around tackling ships and then dropping in 6x carriers to do the damage.
Most of the more well known alliances and/or larger corps do this. I'm not going to name names, but they know who they are.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:46:00 -
[15]
They need to fix Triage bonuses and cap use to make it useful first. Then, if CCP wants to implement a fighter nerf, they may do so. However, I think that a carrier should still be able to control 15 fighters if configured correctly. It's just common sense from that so-often-hated RP perspective. Perhaps it should have to sacrifice more than it currently needs to do so, however.
There was a good thread in I believe it was the Features and Ideas forum about new modules that would make fitting choices for carriers less obvious and more situation-based. For instance, I believe there were medium-slot damage mods for fighters (which should equally effect both shield and armor tanks, since the armor tanks need those precious cap rechargers, too).
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Jezala
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:53:00 -
[16]
Well, as it is now carriers are nothing more than capital size drone boats. They completely fail at providing fleet support, unable to extend operational ranges outside home territories, screams failure when it comes to resupply and rearming, and worthless in terms of command and control.
They may be called "carriers" but they sure as hell don't provide any of the functions one would expect from today's military "carriers".
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:00:00 -
[17]
Well from an RP point of view, I'd make carrier fighters extremely weak and cheap, about the level of low end t1 frigates, give the carrier tons of them, and make it only to launch a few at a time. They'd have to fly off and launch, I dunno, 3 or 4 attacks. Then they'd have to come back and refuel/recharge/rearm, during which you could launch a successive wave. You could optimize your fighters for range, or make them better at killing enemy ships, or better at killing enemy fighters/drones.
And of course, in the 'real world' battleships are just as much capital ships as carriers, so a battleship that got close to a carrier would have no trouble destroying one. Not sure how to translate that over to EVE of course.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Chomapuraku if every man and his dog has a cap ship and they're too cheap, you'd think theyd be parked at 350 km for every gatecamp and cynoing onto every roaming gang. it's a terrible shame how infrequently they see the front lines of anything except pos sieges.
on that note, props to IC for putting their caps on the front line every time the fight comes to you. that's how they were meant to be used
Carriers are logistics ships... they are NOT meant to be on the front lines. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:56:00 -
[19]
I wonder also if the price difference between Dread (90m) and Carrier (450m) skills will be evened out. I believe it was originally a reflection on the level of usefulness between the two, with a dread being for POSbusting, and a carrier for, well, everything.
But anyway, I see a lot of general carrier discussion here, but the main reason I started the thread was to see some specific talk about the Thanatos' fighter damage bonus. |
Tapper Jackson
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.14 21:34:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Tapper Jackson on 14/12/2007 21:37:10 The Carrier fighter nerf was "postponed" for good reason. Page after page of objection from the pilots of EVE. I believe something over 20 pages each in at least two threads. Some of the objections were quite......emphatic. Still others were eloquent in their logical argument against the nerf. Hopefully CCP will never adopt this crippling nerf to a fine ship class.
Carriers are obviously not too cheap. Two billion, when fitted, is enough to get anyones attention when regarding their wallet. Certainly not cheap enough to throw away casually unless you're one of those who illegaly purchase their isk online. Carriers are far from overpowered and can be easily defeated if they're foolishly flown solo. Now with the introduction of the Heavy Interdictors this means Motherships too, though even before this it was proven possible to defeat a Mothership in low sec.
Pilots train for months to be able to fly these ships and months more to fly them well. They do not do this to fly a ship crippled by being forced to have a "wingman" in order to deploy their full potential in firepower. The point of a carrier is that you have a flexibility in how the fighters are used. You, the pilot, decide where you want those fighters to be. Either with your carrier or dispersed to other pilots as the need arises.
There isn't another ship in the game that requires two or more players to fly it and there is no reason Carriers should be an exception.
I'm getting real tired of the nerf bat being given over to the "bright and shiny new ideas" of a certain developer and if the Carriers are crippled by his limited vision, there will be fewer subscribers instantly. Eve is a complex interaction of phenomena and can not be effectively managed by someone who adopts the mind set of, "Oooo...that's a shiny button. I wonder what happens when I press it?".
Shoot em till they squeak. |
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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.16 00:25:00 -
[21]
Despite the fact that it was postponed, it looks like they're pretty intent on changing things. Just like the reprocessing nerf got redone into a module size nerf; one way or another, drastic changes are coming, no matter how many people protest.
Nothing irritates the people running an empire like logistics does, and 90% of the feedback about those changes were negative. Yet here we are...
As for needing two people to fly it, isn't that what cyno fields are about? Can't train that on a trial account either. The intention is obviously to make it a 2+ man operation. Maybe if they make Drone Control Units function as an additional fighter the carrier pilot can control themselves. With racial carrier 5 you can control 5 and assign a further 5. With three DCUs on you can control 8 and assign a further 5.
Carriers have been this way for years, and they've been used this way for years. They should certainly have seen that more and more people would end up in them, just like they did with battleships years ago. The mere fact they waited until every man and his dog were flying one to drastically change things just strikes me as lazy. I'd certainly feel there's grounds for the first ever skillpoint respec if a major nerf happens. Let's hope the changes aren't total overkill. |
Tapper Jackson
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.16 18:34:00 -
[22]
You're right, Nedarius. They are intent on nerfing the Carriers, but as you point out some nerfing was already done in Trinities update. CCP's concern was that the Carrier's were being used as "swiss army knives". Able to do everything or at least too many things. While this point of view may have merit, it does not mean a nerf to the Carriers prime intended abilities is necessary. Hopefully, the mineral compression nerf achieves what they desired and has addressed their concern. Indeed, the dev who proposed the fighter nerf, himself, stressed it was "just an idea" to nerf fighters and invited comment. He got much more than he anticipated and some of it was over the top. Especially the threats of physical violence. Regardless, it points out pilots don't particularly mind nerfs to the Carrier's so much as they mind the fighter nerf. Nerfing the Carrier's fighter ability is revolting and disregards the prime reason pilots train for months to fly this very cool class of ship.
It does take two to move a Carrier from one system to another and it's understandable why this is so. The Carrier is bypassing gates and systems in one big jump. It would be a bit overwhelming for jump ships to be able to do that on their own and I don't think anyone really has a problem with the limitations as they stand.
What I meant by not needing a second person to help you fly a carrier was that you don't need a second to fly it within a system. You don't need anyone to deploy the fighters you've trained for or activate any of it's modules or bonuses. Nor should you. Flying a ship by commitee is a repulsive prospect, though I can see how it would benefit pirates as opposed to someone trying to protect their system.
As for general nerfs to the Carrier, you aptly point out that some of these took place in the recent Trinity update. It's fair to say the Carrier was never intended to be used as a hauler and the nerf seems to have killed that ability. With the addition of the jump freighter it can be see that CCP intends that role to be taken by other ships and will supply those ships or increase the existing ones abilities should current ships and/or their abilities fall short of the need.
When CCP introduces an ability or ship they must be thinking about how it affects the game and how it will do so in the future. It seems very strange that so many of those introductions, like Carrier's, are now being second guessed and that someone at CCP thinks they need to be downgraded. Certainly some fluidity needs to be maintained for the sake of balance, but recent drastic changes and proposed changes for the near future really have to make you wonder just which direction the game will jump.
Stability is needed for development of strategy in skill training and for mapping a career in EVE. EVE is simply too complex to be played to its fullest without that strategical ability. Introducing drastic fundamental changes creates chaos of any strategy and frustrates the living heck out of pilots. It transforms someone who contemplates years of life in EVE into someone who starts looking around for other things to do. Shoot em till they squeak. |
Minmatar Citizen 4521577
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Posted - 2007.12.16 19:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Carriers are logistics ships... they are NOT meant to be on the front lines.
Get on with the times. These days they are supposed to be on the front lines.
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IamBen
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.12.16 19:25:00 -
[24]
if they are going to be meant to be on the front lines they need to be made a little more durable. Carriers unless they are fitted out with some ridiculous multi-billion isk set up can be killed in under one minute. That really bites for someone who spent a long time saving up for one. Not everyone is rich :)
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Sanshi Vidi
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Posted - 2007.12.17 03:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Interesting Bellum, can you share what the changes will mean for you?
Man that sounds sarcastic, but I am genuinely interested. I need a reason to keep skilling down the carrier path. :)
I fly a Thanatos, and a Moros as well. I have a lot of skill points invested in each of them. I have fighters to 5 for instance, jump drive calibration to 5, and I'm half way done with Gal Carrier 5.
But carriers have just become the new defacto top of the food chain for ships. They're now as common place as battleships, with motherships becoming extremely common place, especially in low sec where they're unstoppable. A few heavy dictors arn't going to put much of a dent in a MS. It'll just put 25x fighters on one, watch it go pop, and jump out a minute later.
I'm tired of having Nyxs and Chimeras jumped in when it *was* a nice little 3v3 or 4v4 gang fight or whatever. The other side doesn't even have to be losing, they just jump their cap ship in, and people will have more waiting, in case you decide to jump in one of your own. I've seen a 4v4 BS fight turn into an 8v8 capship fight in less than 60 seconds. It's stupid.
I fight in low sec primarily. In .4 sec you can't even delegate fighters, so the Thanatos and it's damage bonus would be doubly useless if fighters were nerfed but I still think it needs to happen.
Carriers got a nice buff with their ship hangars and BS volumes, allowing them to move rigged BS around. That helps me a lot because I'm a pirate and I use my carriers (we have more than half a dozen in our little corp) to move my team around.
Carriers just suck the fun out of fights, especially at stations, where if you don't bump them out of dock range, they'll always have enough time to deagress and just dock up, so it's pointless to try and attempt to kill them. It's just not fun gameplay. And when ships like these can be used for the primary offensive component of a gang it just ends up being lame when you have a few interceptors, a cyno ship, and some falcons flying around tackling ships and then dropping in 6x carriers to do the damage.
Most of the more well known alliances and/or larger corps do this. I'm not going to name names, but they know who they are.
It's not about fair and it's not about gameplay....it is about real warfare, if you have the guns you bring them to to the fight. You don't sit on them and watch as your team loses assets. You destroy the enemy with the firepower you can bring to the fight, get it over with and on to the next. Just like in RL. There is no such thing as an acceptable loss, there is just a loss and a win.
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Aaron Mirrorsaver
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.12.17 19:18:00 -
[26]
@Bellum
you use carriers in low sec and experience low sec combat with them currently. you play docking games with undocking carriers it seems.
so obviously they matter not as fighting ships to you, but ships you can use to carry around support ships in its sma.
Go Hard, or go Home.
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madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.12.17 19:28:00 -
[27]
Edited by: madaluap on 17/12/2007 19:28:39
Originally by: Aaron Mirrorsaver @Bellum
you use carriers in low sec and experience low sec combat with them currently. you play docking games with undocking carriers it seems.
so obviously they matter not as fighting ships to you, but ships you can use to carry around support ships in its sma.
Oh realleh?
Just some time ago: Apoc and 2 inties spotted. Our gang engages. Apoc presses cyno and 3 carriers drop out.
Just some time ago: corpmate in machariel engages a typhoon. Typhoon presses cyno and a mothership and carrier drop out.
They are solo pwn mobiles. Carrier nerf is required. _________________________________________________ Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
slothe
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.12.17 19:34:00 -
[28]
the fighter nerf was to counter moms in lowsec pwning noobs (and everyone else).
people whined and moaned for ages about this saying that they couldnt be killed in lowsec.
then our corp killed a few in lowsec and proved this wrong.
then ccp introduced hics that make it even easier.
now with everything balanced i see no need for the nerf at all tbh.
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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.12.18 11:26:00 -
[29]
Not to diminish your accomplishments, since they were extremely well-planned and executed strikes, but the guys whose motherships you blew up were utter monkeys not deserving to have ever licked the hull let alone piloted them. |
Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics SOUL CARTEL
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Posted - 2007.12.18 12:03:00 -
[30]
As a carrier pilot i support the fighter nerf. capship-online is not fun.
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