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OldWolfe
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.12.12 15:39:00 -
[1]
I have been thinking about this for a few days now. This is the ideas I have come up with. (Only applies to deadspace missions)
Idea #1:
To begin, you're the leader of your missions so whoever joins you, you're assigned the fleet leader command. If not, you solo.
Whenever you go to a mission located in a deadspace area, you're required to use a jump gate in order to get there. In the deadspace, no MWD is allowed to be used there.
Now here begins the idea: Whenever a player scans you out and locates you within a mission, they warp to you. If you're lucky, it's a deadspace mission. Once they warp to you and enter your mission, they automatically flash red and you're allowed to kill him.
Justification:
You're at "war" or in war-like setting where you're fighting to keep empire space safe for the rest of us. Quite frankly, mission runners don't have time for B.S. from salvaging thieves. Under this context, I'm sure Concord will be more than understanding as us mission runners are helping concord keep peace in the systems.
Pro and con for mission runners:
Pro: No more salvaging thieves unless they wish to dare steal a piece of the lion's share and you have a chance to defend your kill and remove the threat.
Con: Since it's an automatic flashing red, potentially can be abused by pvpers with high powered ships instead of just ordinary thieves.
Pro and Con for salvaging thieves:
Pro: the thieves has a chance to steal loots/salvages. Sure it's more risk and more heart pounding, but the thieves are trying to steal from ticked off lions. (Just warp in and book mark and warp out, hoping they dont kill you in the process and hope they turn in the mission so you can warp back and get the loots)
Con: Thieves dies.
Idea #2
To begin, you're the leader of your missions so whoever joins you, you're assigned the fleet leader command. If not, you solo.
Whenever you go to a mission located in a deadspace area, you're required to use a jump gate in order to get there. In the deadspace, no MWD is allowed to be used there.
Now here begins the idea: Whenever a player scans you out and locates you within a mission, they warp to you. If you're lucky, it's a deadspace mission. Once they warp to you and enter your mission, they they do NOT flash red unless they touch your loot or salvage it, then it's happy killing time upon the thief. However, for them to start flashing red, they must salvage or loot (and if they salvage, they clearly have less guns on the ship).
Same justification as Idea #1
Pro and Con for Mission runners:
Pro: Same as Idea #1 plus less risk in fighting a pvp fight agaist stronger foes.
Con: Still have the potential of having to fight stronger foes.
Pro and Con for Salvage Thieves:
Pro: Still got a chance to steal if they dare challenge the mission runner.
Con: They die
I will flesh out my ideas over time, but those ideas only applies to deadspace missions. I'm sure that it's just as easy to program a restriction upon salvaging and a consequence, same as they did for MWD. Any salvaging thieving outside of missions is still open season.
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ISD Valorem
Amarr
ISD STAR
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Posted - 2007.12.12 15:44:00 -
[2]
Moved to Features and Ideas.
forum rules | CAOD Rules | mods@ccpgames.com | Our Website |
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.12 16:15:00 -
[3]
You do realize that CCP has stated that the ability for a salvager to salvage any wreck is greater than the mission-runner's entitlement to that wreck?
It is intended game mechanics that you can salvage any wreck without drawing aggro. CCP is very unlikely to change it, especially since they keep decreasing mission rewards.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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OldWolfe
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.12.12 17:57:00 -
[4]
You do realize that we have the right to all of the loots and wreckage because WE are the ones who killed the rat, thus gets the lion's share of it. AND have 100% right to fight off salvager thieves from taking our profits.
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Rashmika Sky
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Posted - 2007.12.12 18:13:00 -
[5]
The response I've seen in the past, for anti-salvage thief suggestions, is to do missions in low-sec. Then you can kill anybody that warps in your mission, which is what you're asking here. The difference is that then anybody can warp into your mission, and kill you as well.
Considering Concord currently doesn't flag salvage thieves anywhere, I get the impression they don't care about that crime. It makes sense, also - if you have a cargo container, that is your property, and what is in it, is yours. So container thieves are commiting a crime, and get flagged.
Salvage isn't yours just because you killed a ship, it's actually still the belongings of that shipowner. If you kill somebody in pvp, and some random person loots the wreck before you get to it, you don't get a flag on them - because they didn't steal from you.
I'm not saying "go to low-sec", but that is an easy way to get close to what you are asking for, and I suspect somebody else will tell you to do just that before this thread is over.
-Rash
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Myshella Drake
Caldari
Eishie
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Posted - 2007.12.12 19:51:00 -
[6]
No and No, both ideas fail to grasp the fact the salvaging is first come first served profession. You do not own the wreck nor should you get kill rights for it. you can own the components from the wreck only once you have used a salvager I on it, otherwise your either wanting to claim ownership to something useless (the wreck) or trying to claim ownership to a process you have not even done yet (salvaging)
Also if you had spent your few days actually thinking about the idea and doing some research then you would know that this is about the 124324 time very similar ideas have been put forward. I think you should read the following threads before you start thinking of anymore brilliant ideas
Light reading material
13 pages of arguments
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OldWolfe
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.12.12 21:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/12/2007 21:15:56
If you wreck your car in real life, do not bother having ownership on it due to your logic. It's first come first serve, so if i show up and saw your car in a wreck, I'll take it and pick it apart and take what I want, regardless of how much you whine. As you can see, such logic is invalid, in real life and on this game.
The first come first serve = I killed it first, therefore I claimed it first. All CCP has to do is put a timer on the wreckage and have the thieves blink red only to me but not me blinking red to him. That way I can kill him just as happily so I can keep my profit where I want it and not in someone else hands.
If that cannot be, then give us the right to kill them just as they have the right to steal from us.
It is only fair.
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Oldin Kinrod
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Posted - 2007.12.12 21:13:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Oldin Kinrod on 12/12/2007 21:15:29
Added to the collection...
I suggest you read the thread linked in my sig. You are not the first to come up with this idea, or the 3rd.
The timer idea will never work as it will be jetcan mining all over again, and if you ask me that should be reverted back to it's original plan.
Nothing in EVE is yours until you have it in you cargo hold.
People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions? |
Myshella Drake
Caldari
Eishie
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Posted - 2007.12.12 22:16:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Myshella Drake on 12/12/2007 22:24:16
Originally by: OldWolfe
The first come first serve = I killed it first, therefore I claimed it first.
NO!...First to use the salvager mod on the wreck gets the profit...you total miss my point.
Your still trying to claim ownership to a process you have not completed yet, you cant say ZOMG stop salvaging 'my' wrecks because i wanted to salvage them at a later time. if you dont like people interacting with your mission then why are you playing an online game in the first place?. And on that subject EVE is not Hello kitty, its a harsh competitive and sometimes painful place, as it was designed to be. Players are always competing for ISK and assets, it just so happens that mission areas are now a ground for competition.... so adapt, move to another less populated area, salvage the wrecks as you go... But i guess thats just too much work for lazy **** mission runners
......
Edit: Ty Oldin 
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Oldin Kinrod
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Posted - 2007.12.12 22:36:00 -
[10]
Np Myshella  I almost thought my thread was about to die of starvation.
Next I see them wanting to claim ownership on the rats they haven't killed yet - it's the next 'logical' step. Actually I might start doing that, warp into other's missions and kill their rats 
People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions? |
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Myshella Drake
Caldari
Eishie
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Posted - 2007.12.12 22:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Myshella Drake on 12/12/2007 22:41:25
Read my mind m8 
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.13 03:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: OldWolfe
You do realize that we have the right to all of the loots and wreckage because WE are the ones who killed the rat, thus gets the lion's share of it. AND have 100% right to fight off salvager thieves from taking our profits.
And to answer that I will give you teh quote from Prism X (you know, one of the Devs):
Quote:
If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
I will let you find the link, I've posted it enough times you should have seen it by now. But simply CCP doesn't agree with you and views salvaging as outside the normal mission runner/my stuff rules. It isn't theft, hence you get no aggro.
PS-Be careful of what you wish for. Miners wanted aggro for stealing from Jetcans too and we all know how well that works for the miners....
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Red Eye .Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.13 07:22:00 -
[13]
This is not an issue. There is no such thing as a salvage "thief", just someone who gets to it before you do. It works fine and as intended.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2007.12.13 07:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: OldWolfe
You do realize that we have the right to all of the loots and wreckage because WE are the ones who killed the rat, thus gets the lion's share of it. AND have 100% right to fight off salvager thieves from taking our profits.
That's your opinion. CCP has a different opinion. CCP makes the game, guess which opionion counts.
Get a team of missionrunners together, go low sec and do missions together, you'll get better LP, more standing and more ISK and you'll be able to defend each wreck.
Quote:
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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OldWolfe
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.12.14 16:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: OldWolfe
You do realize that we have the right to all of the loots and wreckage because WE are the ones who killed the rat, thus gets the lion's share of it. AND have 100% right to fight off salvager thieves from taking our profits.
That's your opinion. CCP has a different opinion. CCP makes the game, guess which opionion counts.
Get a team of missionrunners together, go low sec and do missions together, you'll get better LP, more standing and more ISK and you'll be able to defend each wreck.
Yes, it's my "opinion" based on real life mechanicism and guess what CCP does? They listen to players (hence this forum). Don't like it? Then go back to being CCP's quiet lapdog and don't be involve in threads like this.
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Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.12.14 18:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: OldWolfe
Yes, it's my "opinion" based on real life mechanicism and guess what CCP does? They listen to players (hence this forum). Don't like it? Then go back to being CCP's quiet lapdog and don't be involve in threads like this.
Now this is just going too far. Where did they said they don't like you having an opinion? Calling people "CCP lapdog" because they agree with them is largely below the belt and insulting at worst.
Regardless, CCP have responded to this before countless of time. Wreck have no ownership, if you want to change that, go dig up one of those old threads.
And if you are bringing real life into this then let me give you a reality check. You DO NOT have ownership to your wreck because your insurance company own it the moment you accept your insurance pay out. The fact that the insurance companies in EVE choose not to do anything to people who steal their wreck is their business. Not your business. Even if wreck have ownership, it would definitely NOT be belong to the person who killed it!
Now, this is a game, so let's try to look at it as a game and try not to overuse real life justification. The reason wreck are not owned is because they wanted to create a salvaging profession. The profession is to make it possible for someone to just jump into a belt, or a war zone, or whatever, just to salvage.
Now, not to say your suggestion doesn't do anything, it is actually a welcoming change. Someone jumping into a secret mission I'm handling on purpose, should risk getting shot at by me.
However the reason CCP choose not to do this is because this is intentionally done to make missioning in lowsec/nullsec. I personally prefers having more PVP then having people getting too comfortable doing mission in high sec.
This change, on first glance, seem to add pvp element, but in reality it really doesn't, the benefits is all on the missioner's side. Before, they can't shoot at the salvager, the salvager can't shoot at them, but now, they have the option to shot at the salvager, but the salvager still can't do take the first shot. It is a tilts flavoring just the missioner, there for I will not agree to the changes.
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Ammon Skycloud
Caldari
Matari Research Foundation
Empire Research
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Posted - 2007.12.14 19:27:00 -
[17]
It's a really simple concept, I don't get why it's so difficult for everyone to understand. when you shoot me and kill my ship, the wreck belongs to me, not to you, so when you shoot and kill a Rat the wreck belongs to him not to you, if someone then salvages the wreck he should be flagged to the owner of the wreck, in this case the Rat not you.
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OldWolfe
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.12.14 20:43:00 -
[18]
Eka,
I've never liked it when people keeps putting words into CCP's mouth by saying such things as "CCP wont do it because it's a bad idea!" or what not when CCP can say it themselves perfectly well on their own, hence "lapdogs" or perhaps it should be obnoxious parrots.
Anyways, if CCP wants to make salvaging a profession, then add the risk of death for such behaviors. If drug runners has to endure the risk of death from Concord, so should salvagers take on the risk of death from other players.
Plus it is always a tradition of war that the spoils and loots always go to the victor, in this case, the wreckage belongs to me since I killed the rats. However, if I leave behind the wreckage and turn in the mission with no intention of going back for it, it's open season for any lowly peasant salvagers to go in and take.
Every profession has their own forms of risk, and salvagers' the kind that scraps the bottom of the barrels without doing any honest work to earn their own incomes and rely on other players doing the dirty work. I merely suggested ideas of ways to swat those pests aside in order to keep my honest earned income safe.
If salvagers doesn't like the inability to fight back, then they should think twice about being a salvager or pick an easier target, just like many people think twice about being a drug runner.
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Myshella Drake
Caldari
Eishie
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Posted - 2007.12.14 22:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Myshella Drake on 14/12/2007 22:42:10
Originally by: OldWolfe
Eka,
I've never liked it when people keeps putting words into CCP's mouth by saying such things as "CCP wont do it because it's a bad idea!" or what not when CCP can say it themselves perfectly well on their own, hence "lapdogs" or perhaps it should be obnoxious parrots.
So you dont want to insult CCP for being against this idea, but your happy to insult your fellow player who has simply relayed the information...
Originally by: OldWolfe
Anyways, if CCP wants to make salvaging a profession, then add the risk of death for such behaviors. If drug runners has to endure the risk of death from Concord, so should salvagers take on the risk of death from other players.
There IS risk(big enough for you) .I cannot stress this enough, if your in a flimsy salvage ship then rats could easily agg you and pop you if your not quick.When you warp in to check out rooms its very dangerous. Salvaging in complexes is also dangerous as rats can spawn anytime. Also some missions have traps or environment damage. And why should salvagers take on the risk of death from other players?...high sec mission runners dont
Originally by: OldWolfe
Plus it is always a tradition of war that the spoils and loots always go to the victor, in this case, the wreckage belongs to me since I killed the rats.
So you believe an outdated medieval concept still applies in an online game with virtual spaceships throwing zeros and ones at each other?
Originally by: OldWolfe
However, if I leave behind the wreckage and turn in the mission with no intention of going back for it, it's open season for any lowly peasant salvagers to go in and take.
Actually when you turn in your mission and leave its impossible to find it with a scanner, so its not open season...your highness
Originally by: OldWolfe
Every profession has their own forms of risk, and salvagers' the kind that scraps the bottom of the barrels without doing any honest work to earn their own incomes and rely on other players doing the dirty work. I merely suggested ideas of ways to swat those pests aside in order to keep my honest earned income safe.
Cut the high and mighty crap, not everyone is a stuck up high sec mission runner. We all play the game in different ways. Also i might add that your honest earned income IS safe only once its in your cargo hold (for the most part anyway  ), just like everything else in eve.
Originally by: OldWolfe
If salvagers doesn't like the inability to fight back, then they should think twice about being a salvager or pick an easier target, just like many people think twice about being a drug runner.
Dont you mean the ability to fight back?...i dont think many salvagers complain about the inability. There are many ways a mission runner can fight ninja salvaging in the current system back just open your narrow mind a bit
1) The most obvious, destroy the wrecks, the salvager will most likely leave and probably not come back
2) PM them, god forbid they might be a nice person and if you tell them you plan to salvage they will probably leave you be
3) if a salvager warps in while you are still fighting warp right out and let him/her take the full agg
4) Take a friend, if you have any, or an alt to salvage behind you or can make an arrangement with someone in local. It is an MMO after all
5) salvage as you go, not hard a concept, a raven has 2 spare highs, tractor and salvager
6) Move to a less crowded area
7) Move to low sec
There 7 ways to fight ninja salvaging, all you need to do is think
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Cheers Restaurant and Bar
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.12.14 22:53:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 14/12/2007 22:54:28
Originally by: OldWolfe
I have been thinking about this for a few days now. This is the ideas I have come up with. (Only applies to deadspace missions)
Why would anyone ever bother posting another salvage prober whine thread when CCP have JUST BOOSTED MISSION PROBERS hugely with the Sisters of EVE LP store?
Sisters of EVE now offers a LG implant set that boosts scan probe signal strength as much as LG Snakes boost velocity. The Sisters also offer faction scan probe launchers with 25% improved cycle time and faction scan probes with 10% improved signal strength. The signal strength gets such a boost from all this that finding ships directly - not by looking for their drones - is quite a bit easier and faster.
CCP has been very busy boosting mission-probing salvagers. What makes you think there is any hope that CCP will nerf them? They LOVE this new game feature!
And so do I.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
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Myshella Drake
Caldari
Eishie
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Posted - 2007.12.14 22:57:00 -
[21]
SOE scan probe launcher FTW!
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Strikeclone
The Steel Ravens
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Posted - 2007.12.15 01:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Oldin Kinrod
and if you ask me that should be reverted back to it's original plan.
Nothing in EVE is yours until you have it in you cargo hold.
Excuse the paraphrasing but this is the best idea ever posted on this board. Ever.
Recruitment |
Arcayan
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Posted - 2007.12.16 02:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Oldin Kinrod
Nothing in EVE is yours until you have it in you cargo hold.
Technically, nothing in EVE is yours anyway. Read the EULA. 
I was trawling through EVEMon just now, setting up a skill plan for drones and I noticed in there that there is a skill "Salvage Drone Operation" "Skill at controlling salvage drones. 5% increased salvage chance per level."
I went to the Item Browser in EVEMon and had a look around for Salvage drones but couldn't see them.
My guess is that they aren't implemented yet, but are on the cards, and I hope that this is true because that really ought to solve your salvage thief problems for a large part.
I haven't really had any salvage thieves salvaging on my missions yet, but I'd use a couple drones just to improve the efficiency of salvaging.
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Merin Ryskin
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.12.16 02:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 16/12/2007 02:31:14
I have an even better solution:
Idea #3:
To begin, you're the leader of your missions so whoever joins you, you're assigned the fleet leader command. If not, you solo.
Whenever you go to a mission located in a deadspace area, you're required to use a jump gate in order to get there. In the deadspace, no MWD is allowed to be used there.
Now here begins the idea: Whenever a player scans you out and locates you within a mission, they warp to you. If you're lucky, it's a deadspace mission. Once they warp to you and enter your mission, you explode and they get to take your loot.
Justification:
Salvagers need more wrecks to salvage. Player ships drop better loot, so your single wreck is more appealing than the various potential NPC wrecks.
Pro and con for mission runners:
Pro: No more boring mission, you get a nice pod ride back to station where you can switch to a pvp ship.
Con: Requires a thief to actually enter your mission before you are put out of your misery.
Pro and Con for salvaging thieves:
Pro: salvager gets lots of nice loot and a shiny player wreck to salvage.
Con: salvager loses the opportunity to loot and salvage the surviving NPC ships, and may have to deal with angry NPCs. This seems like too severe a drawback, maybe the auto-self-destruct should include all NPC ships in the mission as well?
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