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iudex Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.30 07:13:00 - [1] Dear Dr. EyjoG, can you please spend me 5 minutes of you time and think about this idea ? It's not new, it has been proposed so many times and i hope you can propose it to content team if you like it: NPC corporations have shares, like normal player corporations. Lai Dai Corporation has 20.317.698.519 shares for example. Capsuleers should get a chance to buy those shares, or at least a part of it. Those shares could go for pure isk or isk+loyalty points or isk+another item (and/or require special standing/reputation/special missions/items from 0.0 plex etc.). This would result in a huge isk sink, if you make them expensive enough. Capsuleers then get dividends, like from rl corporations. Example: Lai Dai generates X isk by repair-, reprocessing-, tradingfees, skillbook- & blueprintsales etc. 50% of that fees could then be distributed to shareholders. In our case x/2 : 20.317.698.519. This way we could participate in the empire stock market, have a little extra income (based on how sucessful the corporation is) and a way to spend lots of trillions of isk, which would keep inflation in check. I hope you think about this idea + add more aspects to it and propose it to the other devs, thanks.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.30 07:47:00 - [2] Originally by: iudex Dear Dr. EyjoG, can you please spend me 5 minutes of you time and think about this idea ? It's not new, it has been proposed so many times and i hope you can propose it to content team if you like it: NPC corporations have shares, like normal player corporations. Lai Dai Corporation has 20.317.698.519 shares for example. Capsuleers should get a chance to buy those shares, or at least a part of it. Those shares could go for pure isk or isk+loyalty points or isk+another item (and/or require special standing/reputation/special missions/items from 0.0 plex etc.). This would result in a huge isk sink, if you make them expensive enough. Capsuleers then get dividends, like from rl corporations. Example: Lai Dai generates X isk by repair-, reprocessing-, tradingfees, skillbook- & blueprintsales etc. 50% of that fees could then be distributed to shareholders. In our case x/2 : 20.317.698.519. This way we could participate in the empire stock market, have a little extra income (based on how sucessful the corporation is) and a way to spend lots of trillions of isk, which would keep inflation in check. I hope you think about this idea + add more aspects to it and propose it to the other devs, thanks. So basically once all the shares sell out you will just start creating money out of thin air to pay everyone with shares. So it may start off with deflation and then lead to inflation. Not sure that's the greatest idea. Though I'm sure you could think of some ways to make this work. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
mechtech Silver Snake Enterprise	Posted - 2007.11.30 07:54:00 - [3] NPCs have no reason to have a share system developed as of now, not worth the dev time, there are more important things. Once factional warfare is realized though...something cool should be done with it.
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.30 09:12:00 - [4] I always thought I should get money for nothing, too.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 10:15:00 - [5] It'd be interesting to see what Lai Dai and NPC corp's general net cash flow is like... I think you'll find it generally loses money due to the ISK faucets it provides over the ISK sinks it gets - plus remember these NPC corps actually sell items on the market as well... Actually, the more I think about it if you think about Guristas as a corp for example, it'd lose SO much money from all the ratting and mission running that it has to supply and support with all the ships etc, it's not really even funny. So yeah, go ahead and get shares out. Cos they'll crash and burn. --- meh.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:10:00 - [6] op coulkd intvest in relal life stock market int eve./ Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:05:00 - [7] Actually if NPCs did sell shares and pay dividends where would the ISK come from??? I'll tell you where... Brokers, Sales Tax, Insurance, and Cloning. Imagine how much ISK in Broker Fees, and Sales tax Caldari Navy would have each month.. Would BE HUGE! Those shares would be worth a Fortune. Shares which could be sold on the stock market by people. Oh an In game stock market full of NCP, and Real life corporation! Oh what a pipe dream. Amarr for Life
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:11:00 - [8] Are you there god, it's me Ricdic Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:29:00 - [9] Originally by: iudex Dear Dr. EyjoG, can you please spend me 5 minutes of you time and think about this idea ? It's not new, it has been proposed so many times and i hope you can propose it to content team if you like it: NPC corporations have shares, like normal player corporations. Lai Dai Corporation has 20.317.698.519 shares for example. Capsuleers should get a chance to buy those shares, or at least a part of it. Those shares could go for pure isk or isk+loyalty points or isk+another item (and/or require special standing/reputation/special missions/items from 0.0 plex etc.). This would result in a huge isk sink, if you make them expensive enough. Capsuleers then get dividends, like from rl corporations. Example: Lai Dai generates X isk by repair-, reprocessing-, tradingfees, skillbook- & blueprintsales etc. 50% of that fees could then be distributed to shareholders. In our case x/2 : 20.317.698.519. This way we could participate in the empire stock market, have a little extra income (based on how sucessful the corporation is) and a way to spend lots of trillions of isk, which would keep inflation in check. I hope you think about this idea + add more aspects to it and propose it to the other devs, thanks. You're just creating another sink and faucet. This is a horrible idea. People wouldn't invest in this if it wasn't profitable and if it was profitable it would be completely counter to the point. In the short term it might soak up a good bit of ISK, but a whole hell of a lot less then it would end up paying out. It's better then Quafe!
Vegeta Minmatar Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:03:00 - [10] As far as I know, Dr. Eyjo has no power to change thing within Eve. He's simply a method for CCP to analyze and understand Eve's market. Game design decisions such as the one you propose are made by game designers.

Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.01 10:06:00 - [11] NPC mineral buy orders are getting nuked in upcoming patch so NPC corps (except insurance) will start making profit, as they can now only sell stuff. I doubt that they bought enough minerals before that anyway to drop into loss. Well and ofc some of them are buying trade goods, but those trade goods have been bought from other corps (or in one specific case taken from LP shop in case of nexsus chips). Overall however that idea boils down into 2 situations. 1) Those shares will have reasonable investment payback time and will be very popular. At later date they will be shifting around considerable amount of isk (remember, they give back only 50% of 'profit' that corp makes and no doubt stuff that they sell takes also some 'base cost' for themselves to do) and those without those shares will whine bcos all of them have sold out. 2) Those shares will not have reasonable investment payback time and only few role players go for them. There devs have 'wasted' X amount of manhours implementing that feature (assuming that implementation is limited only to NPC corps, if it's implemented [current share system upgraded] on player corps also perhaps that 'X' amount of manhours is not totally 'wasted'). If implemented then I think that isk + LP plus minimum standings requiment are reasonable (altho later is easily circumenvented if players can trade NPC corp shares between themselves). Overall I have gut feeling however that in game stock market system for player corporation shares would be better goal for that 'X' amount of manhours.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Ricdic op coulkd intvest in relal life stock market int eve./ in english? i'm with the guy that said it'd be interesting to see what sort of cash flow the npc corps have. especially with the ratting/missions that go on and how many npc ships go boom. solid liquid
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.01 23:28:00 - [13] Yeh would be cool to see those stats but not investing in those NPC corps. I can't see a good thing coming from it short of isk making itself Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
iudex Caldari Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.13 07:38:00 - [14] It's a pitty that there seem to be only negative replies on that topic. I think owning parts of the corporations would fit perfectly into EVE's concept: everything is run by players. With that players would even be involved in faction affairs, making them think more loyal towards the corporations they are financially invested in (for example i'd reprocess my loot and put market orders on stations which i bought shares of). The profit is not the main aspect, in first place this would be something where you can put isk into the pve aspect of the game, and be a part of EVE's background story, not only be an anonymous capsuleer who lives in an empire that he doesn't have much to do with, except using it's infrastructure and receiving payment for missions. I think most of your replies have a valid point ans show the problems of this idea, but i think they are not unsolvable or could be seen in a diffrent way. 1) Quote: This creates money of thin air: The money distributed to shareholders is part of what the corporations get from EVE players. If noone uses market agents/ repair stations etc. of a certain corporation, there will be no dividents for that period of time, so there is no new isk created, just taking back another isk sink a little. This could go even further, owners of the corporation could vote for a fees increase. This means people might move to another corporation's station if this gets too high etc. which would let in a lot of business and market related thinking, and like in rl this means the more shares you have the more (voting) power you get to make decisions that can be imporatant for the corporation's financial fate. 2) Quote: You get isk without risk or effort: It's like in real life, you can work to make money and you let your existing money/wealth work for you ( through interests/dividends/profit from your own rl corporation etc.). So you only get something because you paid a lot of isk for that. It already exist in EVE anyways. For example I owned a mothership BPO not long ago, i had not more effort than put it for copying in an npc station once every 3 months and then selling the copies, that was 2-3 billion isk each 3 months for a 16 billion isk investion without any effort at all. I don't ask to be shares that profitable. 3) Quote: You create an isk sink for a short time but then a huge isk increase over time: It's a matter of how expensive shares are. To avoid that, the approximate cost (based on share price changes and corporation income, so it's only a very rough estimation) should be that high, that you get your isk back if you owned the shares for like 5-10 years. Means you invest for example 1 billion isk and get 100-200m in divideds per year (10m per month for a 1 bil investion is easily beaten by any other eve business), just as an example. There was a devblog a year or more ago, stating that the average eve player stays for around 7 months, so after 5-10 years most of that shares would probably be in abandonned accounts anyways. 4) Quote: This might take to many manhours: Corporation shares already exist, you can see how many each npc corporation has in the corporation info. The dividend payout system already exist for player corporations, it could simply be transferred to npc corporation. The income of the corporations is in the database aswell, since every transaction is stored (since you can see them in your wallet journal). So i don't think it takes too much work to combine those things, making shares be sellable on markets and set up the share prices for corporations (not every corporation has to be for sale, it's enough if every faction gets a couple of them, while the rest remains in the faction's hands). This should not take too many manhours in the end, but would add a lot to eve, the flair of a stock market, partly player owned corporations, more loyalty to the factions you like etc.
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies Legion of Honor	Posted - 2007.12.13 08:12:00 - [15] Edited by: Daeva Vios on 13/12/2007 08:12:20 Quote: not only be an anonymous capsuleer who lives in an empire that he doesn't have much to do with, except using it's infrastructure and receiving payment for missions. If you'd spent much time reading the chronicles and backstory, you'd know that capsuleers are largely separate from their empires except inasmuch as they choose to take part in the politics. Space is largely managed by CONCORD and its branches, which, while it started out as a collaborative effort between empires, has become its own independent entity. Capsuleers are a unique breed and the empires are very well aware that they need pilots, and that a pilot who is unhappy can go elsewhere at any time and there's nothing the empires can do about it. Therefore even the Amarrians don't do much to impose control over pod pilots. Quote: The money distributed to shareholders is part of what the corporations get from EVE players. If noone uses market agents/ repair stations etc. of a certain corporation, there will be no dividents for that period of time, so there is no new isk created, just taking back another isk sink a little. There is absolutely no need to decrease the strength of the isk sink here. Read the QEN. The current level of isk leaving the game is significantly lower than the current level of isk entering the game. They need to strengthen isk sinks. At this point, if the price controls in game were to be removed, there would be rapid inflation simply BECAUSE of the lack of isk sinks. Quote: It's a matter of how expensive shares are. To avoid that, the approximate cost (based on share price changes and corporation income, so it's only a very rough estimation) should be that high, that you get your isk back if you owned the shares for like 5-10 years. Nobody would do this. 5-10 years is longer than the lifetime of the average MMO. Quote: There was a devblog a year or more ago, stating that the average eve player stays for around 7 months, so after 5-10 years most of that shares would probably be in abandonned accounts anyways. Do you really want to have an NPC corporation entirely in the hands of inactive accounts? Quote: Corporation shares already exist, you can see how many each npc corporation has in the corporation info. And most of these shares are already held by other NPC corporations, just look in the Backstory dropdown on your left, corporations. Ultimately this would only be useful for roleplayers. While I'd like to encourage roleplaying, having any sort of benefit to it would be kinda counterproductive to the whole "you're on your own" theme of the game.
iudex Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:29:00 - [16] Thanks for your answer, Daeva Vios, with your two replies you have shown that you hate me or the idea, but i think a negative reply is better than no reply at all ;). However, you wrote bad about some things that are not really bad, and you know that. That 5-10 years was only an example of where the return rate could be and i mentioned them to show that this will be a huge isk sink, even in the long run, since people would spend a lot of isk to buy the shares, while the dividends are small enough so that this isk isn't paid back for years. Together with the time an average player stays with eve, this would create a huge isk sink. How can you say this will increase the inflation ? Also i don't agree that nobody would do that. At least i would do that, and since i'm an average guy i think there might be many thinking like me and do that aswell. As stated above, the 10-20% yearly in dividends (10-20% anual return = 5-10 years from above), which does not look to bad since there is not much risk or effort involved (are you sure noone would do that ?), are not the major reason. The ownership of corporations could be spiced up with a list of top 10 or 20 major shareholders of a corporation which is shown in corporation info, so that people could have a financial race about who gets on that list and see who has influence etc, which would provide a longterm goal to make more isk. Actually that's the main point here, i can only speak from my point of view, but again, i think this is valid for many: After a while of isk making i don't see where to put my isk to. After almost 2 years of gametime i gathered a nice sum of isk and found good ways to make isk but there is simply no real opportunity of investment, except irrational things like buying officer stuff and do pvp with it or something like this. So there is no real reason to make more isk, while trying to become the major shareholder of a chosen corporation might give a longterm goal for years (don't say that i'll play that long, maybe i die tomorrow, but it is a goal you can work on, which generates a lot of additional fun). It's a nice mix of roleplay and ingame business activity, why, like you say, would any sort of benefit from this sort of roleplaying be counterproductive ? Also i don't see any problems if shares are in the hands of inactive accounts. Inactive players can't vote (if that is going to be an option) and they shouldn't get any isk. The solution is simple: the payment of dividends must be confimed ("claim dividend" button at the corporation's stations or in your journal). If someone didn't claim his dividend for lets say 30 days, they are lost, problem solved. Or those shares could return to the corporation after the account has been without subscription for 90 days, without getting anything back, there is no problem with that.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:00:00 - [17] Originally by: iudex That 5-10 years was only an example of where the return rate could be and i mentioned them to show that this will be a huge isk sink, even in the long run, since people would spend a lot of isk to buy the shares, while the dividends are small enough so that this isk isn't paid back for years. Together with the time an average player stays with eve, this would create a huge isk sink. How can you say this will increase the inflation ? It's not a sink, it's a sponge. It soaks up and soaks up more and more until it is full. Then it has zero effect until it is wrung out. And it doesn't sound like it will be wrung out over any kind of exit point so this idea is not a sink in any way. My Latest Auction!!


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